Beware Ghulat are still amongst us shia!

[Guest hannibal]

some posts by some members are really dangerous and these people are sullying the name of islam, they give imams especially ali(as) a rank that he's never claimed to have, some of them are claiming he's independant in his wylayat takweenyat on Allah. some claim he can help without Allah's permission, some claim that because he was created from noor light then he's got some divine attributes, be very carefull, i love shia brothers and sisters and i dont want them to go to hellfire because of such beliefs.

[Aghamalang]

Bro he was created from Nur, as were the other Imams (as). Usul-e-Kafi has a chapter on this, their physical composition is NOT like us. That's not Ghulath belief

[alqaid]

wahahahahha created from noor???? you people are sick

[Syed]

some posts by some members are really dangerous and these people are sullying the name of islam, they give imams especially ali(as) a rank that he's never claimed to have, some of them are claiming he's independant in his wylayat takweenyat on Allah. some claim he can help without Allah's permission, some claim that because he was created from noor light then he's got some divine attributes, be very carefull, i love shia brothers and sisters and i dont want them to go to hellfire because of such beliefs.

Bismillah

Salam + Ya Ali Madad!!!

I don't think ne one is of the opinion that Mola Ali (A.S) can help without the permission of Allah (SWT).... I think U need to read the posts more carefully...

Wa Salam + Ya Ali Madad!!!

[Ali Fazel]

wahahahahha created from noor???? you people are sick

I think you should research before making statements ---- We Usooli do not raise Ali (A) to the status of God.

And you should not bring him lower then the status, that prophet (SAW) has mentioned about him.

Bro he was created from Nur, as were the other Imams . Usul-e-Kafi has a chapter on this, their physical composition is NOT like us. That's not Ghulath belief

Prophet (saw) said, “Ana wa Ali mun nuhin wahid”, that does not mean Akhbari or any other people should excel him to the status of God or demi-god.

I got a very good experience about these fanatics when I visited the Azadari.com. You should see the stupidity they spread. If the Shia belief was what the Akhbari preach – I would leave Shia today. I am that disturbed by their statements

I have now come to understand, why the Wahabi and some Sunni people hate us Shia people ---- It is the fanatic people (Akhbari) who are preeching rubish and creating this misconception. --- They are becoming the 2nd Nusari. ----It is high time that we make clear that the Shias of Iran (who are largely Shia-Usooli) are far different from Shia of Yemen (who are largely Shia Akhbari)

I don’t want any thing to with Wahabi type fanatic Shias who have no respect for Ulemah.

What can one expect from people who have no Ulemah to guide them and who believe their limited knowledge (2 years study of two books of islam) is enough to know the whole of Islam. --- Any sane person would rather acceptance guidance from people who have spent 40-60 years researching Islam.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Ali Fazel

[SpIzo]

Oooo hannibal, I'm so honored! You created a silly and ridiculous thread just because you wanted me to post "silly" replies?!? Looks like you have forgotten your ignorant and silly rants on this thread.

One thing is for sure, your main purpose is to create fitnah and now, not only am I allergic to stubborn and stoopid people but have a deep dislike for them. I hope that answers your idiotic question. :)

Edited September 27, 2006 by SpIzo

[haider_2000_1]

I think you should research before making statements ---- We Usooli do not raise Ali (A) to the status of God.

And you should not bring him lower then the status, that prophet (SAW) has mentioned about him.

Prophet (saw) said, “Ana wa Ali mun nuhin wahid”, that does not mean Akhbari or any other people should excel him to the status of God or demi-god.

I got a very good experience about these fanatics when I visited the Azadari.com. You should see the stupidity they spread. If the Shia belief was what the Akhbari preach – I would leave Shia today. I am that disturbed by their statements

I have now come to understand, why the Wahabi and some Sunni people hate us Shia people ---- It is the fanatic people (Akhbari) who are preeching rubish and creating this misconception. --- They are becoming the 2nd Nusari. ----It is high time that we make clear that the Shias of Iran (who are largely Shia-Usooli) are far different from Shia of Yemen (who are largely Shia Akhbari)

I don’t want any thing to with Wahabi type fanatic Shias who have no respect for Ulemah.

What can one expect from people who have no Ulemah to guide them and who believe their limited knowledge (2 years study of two books of islam) is enough to know the whole of Islam. --- Any sane person would rather acceptance guidance from people who have spent 40-60 years researching Islam.

(salam) sorry no, the Shi'as in Yemen are mostly Zaydi, who are not even twelver.

There is a big Akhbari community in Bahrayn however. But they are not the same as the people sometimes known as 'Akhbaris' in the subcontinent

[Ali Fazel]

sorry no, the Shi'as in Yemen are mostly Zaydi, who are not even twelver.

There is a big Akhbari community in Bahrayn however. But they are not the same as the people sometimes known as 'Akhbaris' in the subcontinent

OK – I stand corrected

-------------

I am still frustrated with the image of Shias stained so badly by the Akhbari.

The Shia-Usooli gave their blood to spread the true message of our imam (A). The eight years of Iran/Iraq war, that brought Shias on to the scene of world AND the Lebanon war where Shias gained So much victories – uniting the Shia-Sunni community. AND all the time the Akhbari were busy spreading their ugly mis-belief posing as the main stream Shias.

They did not even shed a drop of blood, but they shamelessly came to steal the share of respect only to create more trouble for us.

This is why, I think the difference between to two should be made clear

Oooo hannibal, I'm so honored! You created a silly and ridiculous thread just because you wanted to see my "silly" replies. Looks like you have forgotten your ignorant and silly rants on this thread.

One thing is for sure, your main purpose is to create fitnah and now, not only am I allergic to stubborn and stoopid people but have a deep dislike for them. I hope that answers your idiotic question. smile.gif

SpIzo -- Who is really creating Fitna? ---- Why dont you have the the signature indicating you are Akhbari --- so that people are not confused.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Ali Fazel

[Yousif]

(salam)

if being an akhbari means anti-taqleed etc , then we have no akhbaris in bahrain , and the community in bahrain is mostly usooolis , or ex-akhbaris , and even those who choose to stick to being akhbari , still do respect ulema and still refer to the thoughts and rulings of Allama shaikh hussain and most of these people are expiring now *i.e mostly really old people)

i think on a previous thread we agreed that they came from light but are humans like us refering to the verse

qul enama ana bushrun methlakum

salam

salam

[A follower]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Inshallah you are all well....

Food for thought: First muslims are divided into two sects the Sunnis and the Shias.. Now the Shias are divided further into Akhbaris and Usoolis and not to mention the other sects in Shiaism... So out of curiousity who is Imam Al Hujja [ajtf] returning? the Usoolis, the Akhbaris or for the whole Ummah or even better the humanity?

Wsalaams

[SpIzo]

SpIzo -- Who is really creating Fitna? ---- Why dont you have the the signature indicating you are Akhbari --- so that people are not confused.

Ali Fazel, I'm not interested in this thread, firstly. Secondly, whatever I said was directed at hannibal and he knows what I'm talking about. It was neither for you nor for any other member who has replied to this topic which was actually created so that I should take part in it. hannibal didn't open it because he genuinely was concerned for his "brothers or sisters" nor because he wanted people to learn or discuss this. His intentions are transparent.

Thirdly, Ali Fazel, maybe you should have taken some effort to check out the link in my previous post and you would have come to know who is an Akhbari and who is not.

[abzi]

Abu'l-Mu'ayyid Mu'affaq Bin Ahmad Khawarizmi and many others have reported from reliable sources that the Holy Prophet said: "I and Ali were born of one light. We remained together until we reached the loins of Abu Talib where we were separated from each other."

Hasan Sajjad

President

That is not light in a physical sense, but in a spiritual one.

People fail to realize that the Prophet saws and the Ahlul Bait are a MODEL for humanity. They are the extreme utmost examples of humanity, NOT super-humanity. If they were above the realm of humanity, we couldn't use them as models, because there's nothing in common. Just as we can't use Allah swt as a model (astaghfirullah), nor angels, we use HUMANS as the model.

The Prophet saws once said "I am a human like you." The light is not referring to composition of material existence...

[Dhulfiqar]

Abzi,

The Masomeen (as) took on humanitic characteristics to teach humanity. But they should not be limited in that way. And as teachers they taught by example not because they needed to but because they wanted to. They wanted us to follow the best of the best. Their supplications bear witness to their commitment of guiding mankind from darkness into Light.

"God is the Light of the heavens and the earth;

The likeness of His Light is as if there were a niche;

And within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass;

The glass as it were a glittering star;

Lit from a Blessed Tree;

An Olive, neither of the East nor of the West;

Whose oil wellnigh would shine, even if no fire touched it;

Light upon Light; God guides to His Light whom He will.

And God strikes similitudes for men, and God has knowledge of everything".

-The 35th line of the 24th Surrah

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

[abzi]

Abzi,

The Masomeen (as) took on humanitic characteristics to teach humanity. But they should not be limited in that way. And as teachers they taught by example not because they needed to but because they wanted to. They wanted us to follow the best of the best. Their supplications bear witness to their commitment of guiding mankind from darkness into Light.

"God is the Light of the heavens and the earth;

The likeness of His Light is as if there were a niche;

And within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass;

The glass as it were a glittering star;

Lit from a Blessed Tree;

An Olive, neither of the East nor of the West;

Whose oil wellnigh would shine, even if no fire touched it;

Light upon Light; God guides to His Light whom He will.

And God strikes similitudes for men, and God has knowledge of everything".

-The 35th line of the 24th Surrah

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Some akhbaris have provided oppertunity to Wahabis and Salafis to come to their forum and abuse all shias, and even Ulimas. It is just their ignorance. They do not know how to talk with others, knowledge is too far from them. I was with some of Akhbaris and they tried to convince me but after visiting their forums my hate to them became more intensed due to their ignorance and abusing.

[abzi]

Some akhbaris have provided oppertunity to Wahabis and Salafis to come to their forum and abuse all shias, and even Ulimas. It is just their ignorance. They do not know how to talk with others, knowledge is too far from them. I was with some of Akhbaris and they tried to convince me but after visiting their forums my hate to them became more intensed due to their ignorance and abusing.

[Ali Fazel]

Thirdly, Ali Fazel, maybe you should have taken some effort to check out the link in my previous post and you would have come to know who is an Akhbari and who is not.

OK Sorry ---- You have respect for our Ulemah, and you are not Akhbari.

But

Why are you hostile to Hanibal? Doesn’t his concerns deserve proper answers?

The Masomeen took on humanitic characteristics to teach humanity. But they should not be limited in that way. And as teachers they taught by example not because they needed to but because they wanted to. They wanted us to follow the best of the best. Their supplications bear witness to their commitment of guiding mankind from darkness into Light.

We do not believe in buddah or the Hindu God type beliefs. We cannot draw a limit on the attributes of Allah (SWT) but are you saying the same about our Aiemah (A). If so I cannot agree to that.

I am Shia Usooli (the believer in the 12 infallible Imams) and I understand their merits ---- but Some of the things I hear here are truly frightening ---- This is why I am concerned.

I have been called Kafir by the Sunni people and heard a lot of unfound accusations launched at our Shia people, BUT I could not understand where it came from UNTIL I saw some fanatical post here.

I know prophet (saw) is the nur, that was created thousands of years before the creation of Adam (A). I understand the wordings of Prophet (SAW) saying. I and Ali are from the same light.

I understand when I hear,--- “Since Husain (A) sacrificed all (gave all) he had for Allah (swt), Allah in turn would reward him likewise. Even if Allah gave to Husain all He had, it would………….. < I am not going to complete this sentence for fear of saying some thing that would make me like these fanatics> But the concept is there.

Still I find what people say here in these discussions disturbing. It is very close to making Ali(A) a demi-god. No true Shia would be comfortable with that.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Ali Fazel

[Dhulfiqar]

Abzi,

Here's an excerpt from Ayatullah Pooya and Syed Mir Ali's commentary of this verse:

The light of wisdom (the Quran) in the heart of the Holy Prophet is as protected as the lamp in the glass. Verses 77 to 79 of al Waqi-ah clearly state that the Quran is a protected book; and no one can touch it save the thoroughly purified, the Ahl ul Bayt, according to the verse 33 of Ahzab. Therefore the true interpretation of "light upon light" is the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt. It is further made clear in the next verse.

For "Allah guides whom He wills to His light" see the commentary of al Baqarah: 256 and 257-he who believes in Allah, indeed, has taken hold of the firmest handhold (or rope) which will not break off. Allah brings them out of the darkness into light-It is obvious that those who are guided unto His light are the thoroughly purified ones. They alone are the manifestations of the real light. Those who follow these reflection of the divine light receive guidance from the grace of Allah to the extend or degree of their sincere attachment to them. Salman was the only companion of the Holy Prophet who achieved the distinction of becoming one of the Ahl ul Bayt.

The Holy Prophet said:

"My Ahl ul Bayt are like the ark of Nuh. Whosoever sails on it is safe, and whosoever holds back shall perish."

Nubuwwah and imamah, jointly or separately, are the most perfect guidance unto the light of Allah. Allah Himself chooses and appoints the guide, but His choice is not arbitrary. There are conditions which have to be fulfilled. Refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 124. When Allah appointed Ibrahim as an Imam after testing his faith and awareness, for the whole mankind, he requested Allah to continue this august office in his progeny. Allah agreed to do so, but "it is a covenant which shall not reach the unjust (zalim)" was added. According to verse 13 of Luqman polytheism is the greatest injustice (zulm), therefore as explained in detail in the commentary of al Baqarah: 124 the Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet was the only group which never worshipped any ghayrallah. Those who had worshipped idols at any time in their lives could not be chosen as Imams at all, but after becoming Muslims if they had accepted the Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt as their guides, and followed them, then, according to the degree of their sincerity and awareness, they are entitled to occupy suitable position in the journey towards the enlightenment available from the light of Allah. Mere verbal profession of faith in Allah without attachment to the Ahl ul Bayt is as bad as hypocrisy.

The existence of the supreme being has been compared to light in order to make human intellect understand a great attribute of Allah, otherwise He is the inconceivable absolute who has created the light. Light is His manifestation. It is not His being.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

[Guest hannibal]

(salam) dear brothers and sisters, i'm not disputing the fact ali was created from the same noor of the prophet (as), but this doesn't give him the divine power or partnership in gods deeds. i mean look at angels they are created from light noor as well but this alone doesn't make them partners in godship!!!!

[chat_buddy]

My post went missing in cyber space, I'll try again ...

Is there a general yardstick or checkpoints where we can differentiate between forms and shades of practices and beliefs where we can safely say that this form is in true Shia spirit or that form has "ghulaty" strains all over it?

If we don't have justifiable methodolog(ies), how then do we put such a thing into test.

Ghulaty or not.

Have you read this:

"Extremist Shiites: The Ghulat Sects (Contemporary Issues in the Middle East)

by Matti Moosa"

[abzi]

Thanks again for your extended replies Dhulfiqar. Inshallah I will try and get in touch with a few Ayatollahs and ask them about this some more.

Light is His manifestation. It is not His being.

Can you explain this more?

Do you consider the Prophet and Ahlul Bait Allah's manifestations or his beings?

[SpIzo]

Such topics actually should not be discussed with or in front of every random person. As Imam [as] said here [taken from another thread]:

Abu Basir said: "Son of the Prophet, allow me to relate this event to others." The Imam did not allow him to do so and said: "Don't relate it to others; otherwise they will not be able to comprehend the truth and will go astray for no reason."

Edited September 27, 2006 by SpIzo

[chat_buddy]

Any of you from any of these groups:

[1] Alevi and Bektashi of Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Albania ?

[2] Alawite or Nusairis of Syria and Turkey ?

[3] Yezidis of Iraqi Kurdistan ?

[4] Ahl-e Haqq ("People of Truth") or Ali'ollahi (Ali-is-God-ists) of Iran ?

[5] Druze of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Israel ?

[6] Ismaili and Bohra of Pakistan ?

[7] Bahai?

[8] Qadiani / Ahmedi ?

Sorry, you are ghulat.

[Dhulfiqar]

"Extremist Shiites: The Ghulat Sects (Contemporary Issues in the Middle East)

by Matti Moosa"

[abzi]

[3] Yezidis of Iraqi Kurdistan ?

[SayedMurtaza]

Any of you from any of these groups:

[1] Alevi and Bektashi of Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Albania ?

[2] Alawite or Nusairis of Syria and Turkey ?

[3] Yezidis of Iraqi Kurdistan ?

[4] Ahl-e Haqq ("People of Truth") or Ali'ollahi (Ali-is-God-ists) of Iran ?

[5] Druze of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Israel ?

[6] Ismaili and Bohra of Pakistan ?

[7] Bahai?

[8] Qadiani / Ahmedi ?

Sorry, you are ghulat.

[Guest hannibal]

well from what i know, the druze (5) have nothing to do with shia, in fact they are enemies of Imam Ali, and they do not love him.

however, the alawi (2) of syria are not ghulat. go read what Sayed Moosa al Sadr has said about them. he said that they are shia, and follow the same 'aqeeda, but since they have been living alone in the mountains for a long time, they have developed some cultural traditions, which have nothing to do with religion.

[Dhulfiqar]

alawis are not ghulat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you on drugs mate??????????? alawi believe that ali(as) is god and that he's superior to muhammed(as) and that belief is a trinity ali-muhammed-salman

man you make me sick!!!!

[SayedMurtaza]

alawis are not ghulat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you on drugs mate??????????? alawi believe that ali(as) is god and that he's superior to muhammed(as) and that belief is a trinity ali-muhammed-salman

man you make me sick!!!!

[Guest hannibal]

i say what i want and i'm not scared of anybody never was and never will be, the alawis have changed their beliefs a lot in recent years and tried to go back in line with muslim aqeeda Theologically, Alawites today claim to be Twelver Shi'ites, but traditionally they have been designated as "extremists" (Arabic: ÛáÇÉ ghulat) and outside the bounds of Islam by the Muslim mainstream for their high level of devotion to Ali ibn Abi Talib. They have only one holy book, the Qur'an, but insist that without knowledge of the family of Muhammad, the Qur'an cannot be properly interpreted. Alawites study the book of Jaʕfar as-Sādiq (Al-Hayfat aš-Šarīf), which has been translated into French and printed. This was done in Beirut in the mid-nineteenth century by an Alawite convert to Christianity, who was later killed by a fellow Alawite for exposing a secret sacred book.

The Alawite religion has many similarities to Isma'ilism. The Alawites believe Ali is the true Successor of Muhammad as well as in esoteric reading of the Qur'an. Unlike Ismailis, Alawites regard AAiī as the purpose of life and the divine knowledge of the prophet Muhammad. The Alawite catechism is expressed in the formula:

I turn to the door of knowledge.

In order for the father to provide me with a key;

Thus receiving the reward which is the knowledge of Ali.

An Alawite prays in a manner patterned after the shahada:

I testify that there is no god but God; Muhammad is his messenger and Ali ibn Abi Talib is his wali "protector/ally".

It has also been reported [1] that they will proclaim "There is no god but ʕAlī ibn Abū Talib", and that ʕAlawī created Muhammad. Ali is an incarnation or avatar of God.Each World Age, of which there are Seven in total, has an incarnation of God within it. Ali is the last incarnation for the last age. Each world age thus has a person who is the base (asa) and one who is the utterer (natiq). The asas are Abel, Seth, Joseph, Joshua, Asaph, and possibly Peter and then Ali. The natiqs are Adam, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, Christ, and Muhammad. The true prophet of the set will disappear and leave a deputy behind who will administer for him until he returns. This is similar to occultation.

Ali, Muhammad, and a third entity, Salman the Persian are important to the faith. Respectively, they are called the Idea, the Name, and the Door (to god). In Sura 6 of the Mujma', one of their texts, it is stated, "I make for the Door, I prostrate myself before the Name, I worship the Idea."ʕAlawites do not accept converts or openly publish their texts, which are passed down from scholar to scholar. The vast majority of Alawites know little about the contents of their sacred texts or theology, which are guarded by a small class of male initiates. For Initiation, a person must be at least 15 and cannot be a non-Alawite. They believe in metempsychosis; the soul of the pious ascends to the starry heavens via a series of transformations. The less pious souls require more transformations.

There are at least four sects within ʕAlawiyya. The Ghaybiyya believe that the occulted one or the absent one is the true God and associate this absence with the sky and air. The Šamaliyya identify Ali, Muhammad and Salman with Heaven, the Sun and the Moon. The Kalaziyya, contarily, hold that the Moon is the abode of Ali, not the Sun, and that by drinking wine, one reaches closer communion with the Moon. This is not at all dissimilar to the vedic concept of Soma, a divine beverage associated with the Moon. The identification of wine with Ali in sacred and secret feast [2] lead some to erroneously think that the Alawites were crypto-christians. A fourth sect are the Haydariyya.

Because only one book has been translated, outsiders know little about Alawite theology. Hanna Batatu's last book has a short but reliable section on Alawite doctrine, theology, and recent debates within the community. How sincere is this rejection of bidʕa "innovation"? There is no way to tell, but it has a long tradition within the community. The French tried to pressure leading Alawite shaykhs to declare ʕAlawiyya a separate, non-Muslim religion during the early 1920s, but they lost their battle because many religious leaders refused to do so. After all, Alawites declare themselves to be Muslims in their catechism and believe that Muhammad is God's messenger.

The Alawite religion seems to be based on Gnosticism and Neo-Platonism. [citation needed] According to Alawite belief, all persons at first were stars in the world of light, but fell from the firmament through the passion of jealousy. The material world is a place of danger, enemies and impurity. The essential evil of this present existence can be escaped by the help of the divine creator. Every Alawite has within his soul a bit of the light of the divine creator, which can be accessed and lead him on the right path and salvation. Faithful Alawites believe that all who put forth towards their soul shall receive their due reward from God. Alawites believe that their rewards are not financial gain or property, but true knowledge of the prophets of God. They also believe infidels are reborn as animals.

Because of the highly syncretistic nature of the religion, scholars have claimed that Alawism is related to Christianity because they have a strong love for Jesus and the previous prophets, but Alawites say that all the prophets were Muslims and that knowledge is like the sea, it never ends. Alawites also study the writings of Aristotle, Socrates, and Alexander the Great.[citation needed]

Alawites try to follow the prime example left by Ali. Ali lived out of the eye of the public. Like Ali, the Alawites are too called names and rejected by the common, like Ali, Alawites also keep to themselves, and like Ali, they say that they too "worship God in private and not for show".

Although Alawites recognize the five pillars of Islam, they do not believe that anyone has the privilege of practising them because they are too pure to be performed by "any" soul. Alawites believe that there is no back door entrance to the gates of heaven (i.e. follow the five pillars and you receive the keys to heaven). Instead they believe that one should devote his life the way that the prophet Muhammed would have permitted by following the example of Ali.

The insistence on conformism has brought rich political rewards—Alawites enjoy all the rights of Muslims in Syria and can hold the office of President, which must be filled by a Muslim according to the constitution. Nevertheless, Alawites have paid a steep price for political success and for a share of political power and equality in the nation.

Alawites who have speculated on the success are considerably more optimistic about the percentage of Syrians who considered them Muslim than are their Druze counterparts. Several claim that 50% of Syrians or more accepted them as Muslims. The reason Alawites give for their success is that they try harder than the Druze to be like Sunni Muslims and to assimilate to the textbook version of Islam. One native of Latakia, an Alawi woman who is in her thirties with an advanced degree, gave the following explanation:

We are accepted as Muslims because we have worked hard to be accepted. Some Alawis cover their hair and wear hijab, either for personal reasons or for humbleness to Allah. We don't eat ham. We fast – we don't eat during Ramadan. We have built mosques in our major towns. But we believe that praying at home for one's own soul, not for show, is what Allah deems pure. Many Muslims go to mosques to show that they pray, whereas Alawites know that God knows their true intentions, and it is more pure to talk to Allah personally. Though many Alawis go to Friday prayer and to the Hajj. My grandfather was a modern shaykh who encouraged everyone to pray at the mosque in Jable. The charitable foundation established and run by Jamil al-Assad (the brother of former President Hafez al-Assad) finances hundreds of Alawis to go on Hajj, and the women working for the organization wear the hijab. Hafez al-Assad prayed in a mosque and fasted always. When his mother and son died, he prayed for them in a mosque. He built the Naˤisa Mosque in Qardaha, his hometown, in the name of his mother. All these things are proof to the doubters that we try hard to be part of Islam. They accept it. We have succeeded, God willing.

The introduction of the state school system into the Alawite region during the last fifty years has transformed the religious identity of Alawites. Today, most Alawites know only the tenets of Sunni Islam because they are taught them in mandatory religion classes from first grade through twelfth grade. Syrian school texts do not mention the word Alawite, nor do they refer to diversity of belief and practice in Islam. Although Alawites know they are different from Sunnis, they do not know exactly how. Most will tell you about the popular religious ceremonies their families engage in, which include annual visits to saints' shrines, the sacrificing of sheep, and wearing of talismans.

Evidently, the Assads go to great lengths to make sure that the different tribes are equally represented in low-rank military posts, just as they try to divvy out unsensitive government posts among the various religious and ethnic groups of Syria.

[chat_buddy]

Actually, the purpose of the list I posted earlier was on the intent that we can affirm them into understanding perhaps into general groups say (1) ghulat of shiism (2) ghulat of sunnism or (3) purely out of Islam. I am curious too where Sufism fit in all this ...

On Alawis and Nusayris, here's what I understand what Matti Moosa had to say:

(Generally, Alawis were Shiites who mutated into Alawis due to persecution by the Sunnis; Nusayris appear to me as a subset of Alawis.)

Beliefs of the Nusayris:

[1] Ali is the Almighty God who takes the place of God of Bible and the Quran.

[2] Ali is superior to the Prophet Muhammad, whom Ali created.

[3] God manifested himself seven times in this world, as Abel, Seth, Joseph, Joshua, Asaf and Simon Peter, and finally in his own person.

[4] Belief in a trinity consisting of Ali, Muhammad and Salman al-Farisi, symbolized by the letters of the Arabic alphabets which begin their names: Ayn for Ali, Mim for Muhammad, and Syn for Salman al-Farisi. To Nusayris these initial letters represent the secret of the trinity.

[5] Belief of the sort that Mana (Ali) created Ism (Muhammad) who created Bab (Salman Farisi) who created the higher and lower worlds. [The later two created what they created on the wish/order of Mana i.e Ali]. But in essence they are all one.

[6] Ali appeared seven times in seven cycle. In each of these cycles Ali was accompanied by an Ism, a Bab and adversary, and in each of these cycles the adversary, or Satan consisted of three persons in one, namely, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman.

[SayedMurtaza]

It has also been reported [1] that they will proclaim "There is no god but ʕAlī ibn Abū Talib", and that ʕAlawī created Muhammad.

guess what, this is false.

One of the books that i have read in is about the Alawis in syria, written by ÍÓä ÚËãÇä

He quotes the saying: There is no god but Ali ibn abu Talib, and there is no hijab but Mohammad...

he goes on to say that this is nonsense, the Alawis dont beleive in this, and he proves how it has been created by certain sunni groups in order to harm the Alawis.

We are accepted as Muslims because we have worked hard to be accepted. Some Alawis cover their hair and wear hijab, either for personal reasons or for humbleness to Allah. We don't eat ham. We fast – we don't eat during Ramadan. We have built mosques in our major towns. But we believe that praying at home for one's own soul, not for show, is what Allah deems pure. Many Muslims go to mosques to show that they pray, whereas Alawites know that God knows their true intentions, and it is more pure to talk to Allah personally. Though many Alawis go to Friday prayer and to the Hajj. My grandfather was a modern shaykh who encouraged everyone to pray at the mosque in Jable. The charitable foundation established and run by Jamil al-Assad (the brother of former President Hafez al-Assad) finances hundreds of Alawis to go on Hajj, and the women working for the organization wear the hijab. Hafez al-Assad prayed in a mosque and fasted always. When his mother and son died, he prayed for them in a mosque. He built the Naˤisa Mosque in Qardaha, his hometown, in the name of his mother. All these things are proof to the doubters that we try hard to be part of Islam. They accept it. We have succeeded, God willing.

this is true thought, as i have heard the same words from my Alawi friends in syria. they say that they prefer prayer at home, although they do go to friday to masjid.

when one of our alawi relatives died, my father went to perform azaa. they prayed upon the body of the dead man, and my father prayed with them. he told me that their prayer is exactly the same as ours.

the problem with them is, as i have mentioned, a cultural and traditional one. they have the same 'aqeeda, and beleive in Ahlul Bayt, but they are very uneducated in their religion due to the fact that they were oppressed by the ottomans, and were forced to live alone in the mountains.

as i told you, it is enought to see what Sayed Moosa al Sadr said about them, and how he accepted them, and gave them the equal representation in the Shia Jaafari court

[Guest hannibal]

we all know why sayed musa sadr has done this, syria was their allies in AMAL movenent and was financing and supporting them, so this fatwa was only to strenghten the alliance and to make hafiz al-asad look like a true muslim which he wasen't.

this is a mistake by sayed sadr rahemahullah and he shouldn't have issued such fatwa.

There is actually great disagreement on the origin of the ‘Alawite people. They prefer the name ‘Alawi (follower of ‘Ali), but they were for a long time called Nusayris. Some think the Nusayri were descendents from the Nazerini in Syria Roman historian Pliny mentioned in History 5:23. The ‘Alawites are composed of a number of tribes, some of which were native to northwest Syria; other tribes emigrated from Iraq in the 12th century. In 1516, the Ottoman Emperor Selim I "The Grim" killed over 9,400 mainly ‘Alawite Shi’ites with the blessing of the Sunni religious leaders. He settled many Turks in the ‘Alawite homelands of northeast Syria, but over time, many of them joined the ‘Alawites also.

The ‘Alawites tried to set up their own country, first called "The ‘Alawite State", and then changed to "Sanjak of Latakia", from 1920-1936. Today there are up to 3 1/2 million ‘Alawites, and they control the country of Syria.

History of their Religion

According to themselves, this Shi’ite group came from God, and their religion is what Mohammed and ‘Ali taught. According to question 44 of the Druze Catechism, they split off from the Druze because they worshipped ‘Ali, when they really should be worshipping Lord al-Hakim (996-1021 A.D.) who is visible God to the Druze.

According to Patrick Seale, in Asad : The Struggle for the Middle East, Univ. of Ca. Press 1968, p.8, "Like the related sects of the Druze and Isma’ilis, the Nusayris were a remnant of the Shi’i upsurge which had swept Islam a thousand years before. They were islands left by a tide which had receded."

Some trace the teachings of the ‘Alawites to Muhammad ibn Nusayr an-Namiri (c.850 A.D.), who called himself the Gate (Bab) to Truth. It apparently evolved through the teachings of Husayn ibn Hamdan al-Khasabi (c.970 A.D.). When the Shi’ites lost power, ‘Alawites were killed by Crusaders, Mamelukes, Ottomans, and ‘Alawites also fought among themselves. As a side note, there was a Sunni ‘Alawiyya dynasty of Morocco, but it is unrelated.

Conflict Over the ‘Alawite Religion

‘Alawites are an offshoot of Twelver Shi’ites. They were recognized by the Lebanese Twelver Shi’ite leader Imam al-Sadr in 1974 as legitimate Muslims, after the ‘Alawite Hafez Assad was elected to power in Syria in 1971. His son, Bashar is likewise an ‘Alawite. Other, smaller groups also believe in the deification of ‘Ali, and these groups along with ‘Alawites are called ‘Alawi.

Ibn Taimiya/Taymiyya (d. 1328), orthodox Muslim scholar and founder of Wahhabism, issued a fatwa (legal judgment) against the ‘Alawites with rather harsh language. He said they were not trustworthy, "they were greater infidels than the Christians and Jews…greater even than idolators." He authorized Jihad against them, saying it was legal to take their property and blood, unless they show repentance.

In 1097 the Crusaders initially massacred a group of Nusayris, but when they heard they were not true Muslims, the Crusaders tolerated them and even aided them in fighting the Isma’ilis. In 1120, the Kurds and Isma’ili Muslims defeated 25,000 Nusayris, but in 1123 the Nusayris with the help of some defecting Isma’ilis defeated the Kurds. In 1291, ‘Alawite and Isma’ili leaders met unsuccessfully to try to merge together. The Egyptian (Muslim) Mameluke rulers persecuted them from 1260 to 1518. When the Ottomans took over Syria, starting in 1516, they persecuted the ‘Alawites too. In 1832, after the Nusayri attacked the Ismai’li village of Masyaf, the Pasha of Damascus sent thousands of troops to fight them. They were also persecuted in 1870 and 1877. The French pacified ‘Alawi lands from 1918-1922. After ‘Alawites massacred some Christian nuns on 4/27/1924, the French killed more ‘Alawites. Under Sliman Murshad, many ‘Alawites fought against the Nationalist Syrian troops, until Sliman was hung in 1946. ‘Alawites are 8-12% of the Syrian population today. They are 65% of the population in the Latakia regions of east Syria and a small part of south Turkey.

After Hafez Assad had been in power, the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood (Ikwan) almost assassinated Assad on 6/26/1980. Many of the Ikwan were in the town of Hama, and the government sent 500 Syrian troops to punish them. The Ikwan killed all of them. All the mosques of Hama blared out that the guerilla war against Assad was over, now was time to openly support the Ikwan and drive out the "infidels". The streets of Hama were too narrow for tanks, so Assad’s brother ordered the artillery flatten the town, and then sent in troops to kill everyone else. Between 20,000 and 38,000 people were killed. An ‘Alawite told me that Assad’s brother was expelled from Syria for this. However, Syria has not had any trouble with Sunni holy warriors since.

Summary: Non-Alawite Muslims are not all agreed whether the ‘Alawites are genuine Muslims or not. ‘Alawites claim to follow the essential teachings of Islam, but there are obviously wide differences in interpretation. In a similar manner, all Muslims claim to follow the teachings of Jesus, yet few have read them and know of the intrinsic contradictions between the Prince of Peace (that is, Jesus) and Islam. While many Muslims considered ‘Alawites as ghulat (a cult) farther from Mohammed’s teachings than even Christians and Jews, some might consider Islam a ghulat with respect to Jesus’ teaching.

Beliefs of ‘Alawite Islam

Secrecy: ‘Alawites have tried to keep their inner teaching and rituals secret, somewhat like the masons or Mormons. One of their rituals is a communion, including drinking wine. Like Catholics, they believe that the wine is transubstantiated into deity, Allah.

The Five Pillars of Islam: the creed, prayer, alms, pilgrimage, fasting during Ramadan, are believed only as symbols and there is no need to practice them. They have two other pillars:

Jihad, or holy struggle/war, was also considered the sixth pillar by the Kharijites.

Worship of ‘Ali, (called Waliya), is the seventh pillar. This involves not only devotion to ‘Ali, but also struggle against ‘Ali’s enemies.

A "Trinity": Almost all Shi’ites (Zaydis excepted) believe ‘Ali, the son-in-law of Mohammed, was the rightful first caliph. However, ‘Alawites go further and believe ‘Ali is a member of an appearance of a "Trinity" of Allah. Most Muslims deny any Trinity. Like the other Isma’ilis, Allah has appeared in a threeness at least seven times. The last appearance was Mohammed, ‘Ali and Saliman al-Farisi. "al-Farisi" means "the Persian". Saliman was the one who suggested digging a large trench around part of Medina at the Battle of the Trench.

Seven Cycles: ‘Alawites believe Allah appeared in seven cycles of three parts.

Revealed

Hidden

Gate

Adam

Abel

?

Noah

Seth

?

Jacob

Joseph

?

Moses

Joshua

?

Solomon

Asaph/’Asaf

?

Jesus

Peter

?

Mohammed

‘Ali

Saliman al Farisi

Note that Noah and Seth are together, even though they lived over a millennia apart.

Reincarnation: People who deny ‘Ali will be punished by being reincarnated into animals.

Attending Mosque is not important to most ‘Alawites. However, they do have ceremonies in the famous Ummayad mosque in Damascus.

Holidays: Like both Sunnis and Shi’ites, they celebrate the sacrificial feast Id al-Azha. Like other Shi’ites, they celebrate the festivals of Idr i-Fitr, Idr i-Kabir, and Ashura. They also celebrate Christmas and Epiphany. They also celebrate Nawruz, which is the New Year of the Zoroastrians. Other Shi’ites celebrate this also, teaching this was the day Mohammed gave the Caliphate to ‘Ali.

Astrology: While Mohammed was against astrology, ‘Alawites use astrology; perhaps they were influenced by Zoroastrians here. They believe the stars in the Milky Way are actually the deified souls of believers.

Written sources claim 'Alawite theology teaches that women do not have souls. They have taught that women were created from devils, or else the sins of devils. This too differs markedly from Mohammed, where he taught the majority of the inhabitants of Hell were women (Bukhari vol.2:161; vol.1:301, and vol.1:28). However, contrary to multiple written sources by non-Alawites, an ‘Alawite told me that they do in fact believe women have souls. I plan to investigate whether some or all ‘Alawites have changed this doctrine, or someone was misinformed.

Wine: ‘Alawites in Syria drink wine. The National Geographic Magazine has a picture of two Syrian men in traditional Arab dress drinking wine together. However, an 'Alawite has told me they do not believe in getting drunk.

‘Alawite Sects

The ‘Alawites themselves are divided into five sects, the Sun Sect (Shamsiyya), the Moon Sect (Qamari), the Murshids named after their Messiah, Sliman Murshid/Murshad, the Haidariyya, and the Ghaibiyya. All agree on the ‘Alawite "fundamentals", but when the divine manifestation of God, ‘Ali ibn Abi/Abu Talib, left earth, the Sun and Moon sects disagree on whether he now lives in the sun or in the moon. The Moon sect is made up of six tribes of ‘Alawites. The majority of ‘Alawites belong to the sect of their religion that their parents and tribe belonged to. However, probably a majority of people in the world belong to a religion simply because it is their family’s tradition. Lots of people today are looking for a tradition; how many are looking for the True God?

Sliman Murshad, the Electric Messiah

Sliman Murshad was born sometime before 1900. He proclaimed himself the Messiah; many 'Alawites followed him, though it should be mentioned that many did not; and his beliefs are not representative of all 'Alawites. Like Mohammed, Sliman apparently had symptoms that appeared like epileptic fits. Like Mohammed, his followers claimed he did miracles too. For example, he would secretly bury food in a mud wall, and when he hit the wall hard, food would come out for the villagers to eat. His legs would glow in the dark, because he painted them with phosphorus. The phosphorus would glow when he would literally light up, because he had lights connected to a small battery he carried. He led a rebellion against the government of Syria, he was supported some by the French, and was finally hung by the Syrians in 1949.

Most curiously, even some people who were suing Sliman, and did not believe him to be any kind of Messiah, were sad to see him killed because he promoted the cause of ‘Alawite autonomy. Anyway, after that time, many ‘Alawites joined the army and the Syrian Baath political party. (The Iraqi Baath political party is not ‘Alawite.) In 1971, Hafiz/Hafez Assad became the President of Syria, and his son Bashar rules today.

Is your religion true, or does it too need "batteries" to keep on going. Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). Just as bugs fly into bug lights and die when they should seek to fly by the sun, people’s souls go to Hell when they seek the "bug light" that needs phosphorus and batteries, when they should seek the true light of God.

If you are tired of religions that need props, coercion, or traditions to keep alive and fired up, look to Jesus who transforms us. You do not need long books of commentaries or hadiths on all the finer legalisms of ritual religion; these too are bug lights, when you need God. God does not allow His word to become corrupted, and if you believe that, then trust in God’s word, the Bible.

The Attractiveness of the ‘Alawite Faith

Why are people ‘Alawite Muslims? Some might think it is because this allows one to be a Muslim (with its corresponding benefits in a Muslim society) and not have to do all the rituals and go to the mosque very much. One can also drink alcohol as an ‘Alawite Muslim. But there is more to it than that.

In orthodox Islam, Allah is nearly unknowable. In Sunni Islam, if you want to know all that pleases and displeases Allah, you "vicariously observe" everything Mohammed did as written in the traditions (Sunnah) preserved in the hadiths. The hadiths are in a sense more influential than the Qur’an, because there is so much more that is spelled out in all those volumes. Shi’ite Islam has its own teachings of Ja’far and others, but for practical application they listen to the imams. ‘Alawites have a great respect for Mohammed and ‘Ali, and so they worship them as Allah. ‘Alawites want to know God, and they think they can by substituting Mohammed, ‘Ali, and Salman al-Farisi as a Trinity. A problem with this is that Mohammed and ‘Ali never claimed to be God, one with God, or claimed to forgive sins. They never accepted worship or the title of Lord, or allowed others to call them God.

The True God is knowable in the Old Testament. It shows how God interacted with kings, judges, and commoners. Of course, in the New Testament, God is even more knowable since Jesus came to earth.

Contrast with the Bible

Secret teachings are a part of the ‘Alawite religion. Christianity has deep truth that was only known through God’s revelation. However, God has revealed all He wants us to know. There is no Christian doctrine, experience, or practice Christians teach today that is not readily available for non-Christians to hear or read. Paul in Ephesians 3:9-10 said his mission was "to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known…" (NIV)

Worship of others is expressly forbidden in the first of the Ten Commandments. "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3 NIV)

Reincarnation: The Bible teaches reincarnation is wrong; Hebrews 9:27 says that man is destined to die once. In 2 Samuel 12:22-23 David said of his dead baby: "I will go to him [the grave] but he will not return to me." (NIV) Reincarnation does not make sense, since we all go to Heaven or Hell after death. Ecclesiastes 11:3 also shows that "wherever a tree falls, there it will lie."

Astrology, trusting heavenly bodies for advice about the future is wrong according to the Bible in Leviticus 19:26; 22:27; Deuteronomy 18:11-14; 2 Kings 17:16; 21:3,5; 2 Chronicles 33:3-6.

Women: In the Bible men and woman have different roles. However, in regard to value, Galatians 3:28 shows that there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus; all believers have the privilege of being children of God.

Wine: The Old Testament shows that drinking wine is acceptable, but Ephesians 5:18 commands us not to be drunk. ‘Alawites drink wine, but I have no evidence that they believe in getting drunk either.

Gospel for ‘Alawites (and everyone else)

God is Greater than Our Thoughts: ‘Alawites rightly believe God is more complex than just Allah, but they worship Mohammed, ‘Ali, and Saliman al-Farisi as God. It is amazing that they would worship Mohammed, who taught he was not God, and not worship Jesus, when centuries before He and the early Christians had taught that Jesus was God. Jesus did not show that He was God merely in some abstract sense, but He accepted worship, forgave sins, which only God could forgive, and accepted others calling Him God too.

God Created Us: How you ever stopped to wonder why God created human beings at all? The Qur’an does not directly answer, but the Bible provides a number of reasons.

· We were created for God’s glory (Isaiah 43:7; 62:3) to proclaim His praise (Isaiah 43:21) as His witnesses (Isaiah 43:10)

· God loves us and delights in us (Zephaniah 3:17)

· As a Father loves His children (Malachi 1:6; 1 John 3:1), God cares for us. (Psalm 8:4; Nahum 1:7; 1 Peter 5:7)

· God wants us to live with Him forever (Revelation 21:3; 2 Corinthians 5:4)

· Our joy (Philippians 3:1) and light will be God (Revelation 21:23-25; John 1:5,7-9) which is better than looking forward to wine (Psalm 4:7)

· We are created in Christ Jesus to do works (Ephesians 2:10)

We have a purpose, and do not let religion, or anything else, stop you from fulfilling our purpose.

People run from God’s Truth: We have no reasons to look down on ‘Alawites who believe ‘Ali lives today on the sun, or the ones who believe ‘Ali lives on the moon, because haven’t most people, at one time or another choose to believe something just because they wanted to, without caring foremost about the truth? Not only do people prefer to believe crazy, made-up doctrines, but people do not want to believe that God’s way is the best way. When someone who knows the truth about God decides to do drugs, get drunk, be immoral, or chase money as their idol, is their thinking any more rational than the ‘Alawites? No, we all are in the same boat without God, and God not only needed to reveal the truth, but He has to guide people to it, as people are so prone to chase after the deceptions of this life.

There is one way, God’s way: Though we have all turned aside from God and followed our pet deceptions, God was not through with us. While we were still God’s enemies, God sent His son Jesus Christ to die for us, as Romans 5:10-11 shows. Mere prophets came to teach; Jesus not only taught like other prophets, He came to die to our sins (John 1:29; 1 Timothy 2:6; 1 John 2:2). Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. None comes to the Father except through me."

We must seek God: Jesus told us we had to seek Him in Matthew 7:7-12. Mt 7:14 adds, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that lead to life, and only a few find it."

We must confess Jesus as Lord: "if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, ‘Any-one who trust in him will never be put to shame.’ For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’" (Rom 10:9-13)

[abzi]

Why are you so rude?

Follow the path of the Ahlul Bayt (as), please.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

[Guest hannibal]

mashAllah.