Ithna'asharis & isma'ilis - A ithna' ashari vs ismaili dialogue

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear, group I am a born Muslim of Sunni Islam, who is in the process of becoming a Shia, of the Isma’ili fold in particular.

What troubles me as a Muslim, or simply as a Shia is the great lack of unity that plagues our peoples. What is the root cause of this need for infighting and how do we resolve it? These are great questions, which Inshallah will be addressed by Muslims in time.

I would like if I may to start on a more modest ground, and open a dialogue with the Ithna’Ashari. In the hope that this Ithna’Ashari Vs Isma’ili Shia debate will bring us closer to understanding.

Peace

[Aamir]

salam Alaikum bro

Welcome to our discussion board :)

What I suggest you do is open another thread like this somewhere like the general forum so that you would get more responses.

ws

[Gypsy]

Welcome brother.

If you dont mind me asking..why Ismailis and not Ithna Asharis ?   ;)

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear Zareen,

                 Thank you for your welcome. to answer your question, I was moved to join the Shia as it made mores sense to me. Obviously the Prophet of Islam would not let fate decide his successor, and who better then Ali, his son in Law, and closest male friend….we turn to our families first…and the prophet would turn to his I am sure.

 Isma’ilism in particular was for me, very courageous, and resilient, throughout it’s history, with great empires being created by a small sect. I like the emphasis on the intellect and free thought, Ismailis have established great world class institutions of learning, and have contributed to both scvience and philosophy.

The work of the Imam Shah Karim Al-Husayni the 49th Imam-e-Zaman has for me been a breadth of fresh air…and an astounding success. I was taken by his and the Isma’ili Muslims work in the developing world.

[Akhi]

Salaam o alykum brother,

I too have converted from the sunni school of thought to the shia school. I too was faced with the same situation, however I found the twelvers(Ithna’Ashari ) to make more sense. Not only that it had also come to my understanding that the Ismaili's are not REALLY(a lot of shia brothers have told me this) present in todays world...in other words they are coming "extinct", quite simply because of the accusations that have been put on them...and perhaps some of the accusations are true, for example,....they believe that the Qur'an we have today is "incomplete". After taking that into account I was diverted from their beliefs to the twelvers belief which has made more sense to me.

There was another thread in this site, where some people stated that the closest sect to the shia are the ismailis...i think that is wrong...and notice how the ismaili sect is considered to be a sect outside of the shia sect.

hope that clarifys matters more akhi but please tell me, what else has caused you to move in the direction of the Ismaili sect.

Take care

Was-salaam

[Aamir]

Salam Alaikum

Isma’ilism in particular was for me, very courageous, and resilient, throughout it’s history, with great empires being created by a small sect. I like the emphasis on the intellect and free thought, Ismailis have established great world class institutions of learning, and have contributed to both scvience and philosophy.

Bro, I'm glad you are trying to find the truth, but the reasons you posted about ismailism shouldn't be reasons to revert to it.  Yes the ismaili's have done a great deal for the world through their organizations, but when taking religion into consideration, you should look at what the truth really is.  Christians have done a lot of humanitarian work in the third world, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the right religion.  Plus, you must look at historical fact about the imamath before making such a big decision.

I hope you choose the right path.  And if you have any questions, just ask, we'll all try to help you out.

ws

[Orion]

Macavity_the_Mysterious_C

at,

Salam o Alekum,

Welcome to this board. I am glad to find a brother like you with us.

I have Ismaili friends so I have been able to see them closely.

I am sorry to say that unlike all other Muslim sects, Ismaili are very far from Quranic teachings. Let me give you some examples.

-Most Ismaili do not offer Salat, do not Fast, do not go for Hajj etc. Quran has clear Ayats about them but Ismaili do not consider them obligatory (wajib).

-Ismaili women do not cover their head/body as other Muslim women do. There are Ayats in quran regarding these acts.

-Ismaili youth attend Indian Music programs, watch indian movies etc. All these are against teachings of Islam, yet we dont see their religious leaders stopping them from such activites.

-Ismailis do not care for halal food.

-They involve in Riba (Intrest money, sood).

These are some of the things every one can see. There are others that may not be so open. So let me ask you:

-What do Ismaili say about Beer?

-Is it true that they think that Imam Ali (as) was God or a part of God??????? (astaghfarAllah) And since Hazir Imam (HRH, Karim Aga Khan)has the same noor he is part of God too????? (astaghfarAllah) Kindly clarify.

-Why did the two sons of Hazir Imam refuse to follow him??????

Awaiting your reply.

Sincerely.

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear Akhi & friends,

                                 As my objectives indicated, my goal is to primarily dialogue and to an extent debate…so you questions and issues raised are all very welcome.

I will answer you all to the best of my ability…as many of the issues you raised were also raised by me, with my Isma’ili tutor. I will try to reply to each of the questions raised in brother Akhi’s post in turn.

>“Ismaili's are not REALLY(a lot of shia brothers have told me this) present in todays world...in other >words they are coming "extinct".”

The Isma’ili Tariqahs present followers are as far as I have seen not becoming “Extinct”, they have a very close community. It is true though brother Akhi that Isma’ilis are not growing at rapid pace, this is due to the fact that they keep a low profile and are not again reverting to open Dawa activites. This is not unheard of in Isma’ili history, which has seen Isma’ilis go many times from an insignificant movement going onto the verge of extinction, to the leaders of great and noble Empires. The Dawa policy may change when the present Imam or next Imam launches such activities when the time is right, as right now the community is being brought together after years of persecution, and out of full Taqiyya. The timing of such an event is becoming more rife with speculation within the community.  

>“they believe that the Qur'an we have today is "incomplete".”

Accusations have always been put of Isma’ilis in the 11th century Isma’ili couples were said to trap little children and eat them. It was also speculated upon that Isma’ilis married their own children or any member of their families, fabricated accusations over the centuries never stopped the Isma’ilis from extending a highly successful Dawa Mission…in the most hostile environments, and enriching Islamic civilisation no end.

Many members of my Sunni Family believe that Shia think Ali was the rightful Prophet, and that we all (Shias) believe that the Qu’ran has missing Suras. Those of us here know this not true, and I know it is certainly not true for Shia Imami Isma’ilis.

>“what else has caused you to move in the direction of the Ismaili sect.”

My becoming an Isma’ili I think lies with many issues but the most fundamental being, the astounding vision of the man that is Shah Karim Al-Husayni, and the way he has conducted himself, their seems today in the Muslim world a terrible shortage of leaders. His Highness Agha Khan IV is a great leader, I had many misconceptions about the man until I was introduced to his writings and his deeds, which have altered my former ill-formed views of him, his vision of Muslim unity. To be honest very few in the Islamic world today seem to offer viable alternatives, their seems to be a lack of rational thought, to solving the fundamental day to day issues facing Muslims.  Karim is a man of eloquent words, charitable works, and he exudes compassion. His vision for his murids, and for tackling some fundamental issues facing all Muslims, He makes one proud to say this is what Islam is about, look what we can do if we set our mind to it, if we have enough unity, and faith.

As-Salaam Alikum

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

As-Salaam Alikum, Orian & Friends

Nice to meet you brother Orian, thank you for your welcome, it is good to be here.

Let me deal with the interesting issues you raise…

>“Most Ismaili do not offer Salat, do not Fast, do not go for Hajj etc. Quran has clear Ayats about them >but Ismaili do not consider”

The Qu’ran tells us to establish regular prayer, the form this worship takes can vary. For example the Sunni madhabs vary amongst themselves. The Shia vary from the Sunni. Salaat is for the worship of Allah (swt) the Isma’ili Dua is Regular, Congregational, & established.

Isma’ilis of Indian origin have been undergoing a process of change under the last two Imams…today many Isma’ilis are fast physically but do not neglect the spritual and moral fasts that last the whole year.  Isma’ilis now do also go to Hajj but prefer Taqiyya as we have seen there are many mis-conceptions about us.

The Qu’ran requires women as well as men to dress modestly. The fact that “head/body as other Muslim women do” does, not negate the idea of modestly. The Hijab is fine for those who choose it the Qu’ran never specifies the Hijab, the closest is where the Quran…instructs women to cover there breasts…yet no mention is made of Hijab. I however respect the womens rite to decide her dress sense herself…as respect to Hijab.

>“Ismaili youth attend Indian Music programs, watch indian movies etc”

Let me say that most Indian Muslims do those activities, in fact at the recent west end show in London “Bollywood Dreams”, many Muslims, including many wearing Hijabs attended the musical show…by Andrew Loyed Webber.

>“What do Ismaili say about Beer?”

The Imam says that any intoxicant is prohibited and sets the example himself.

Finally you said

>> “Is it true that they think that Imam Ali (as) was God or a part of God??????? (astaghfarAllah) >>And since Hazir Imam (HRH, Karim Aga Khan)has the same noor he is part of God too????? >>(astaghfarAllah) Kindly clarify.”

The Imam carries the “Nur Din Muhammed” which is the spark of divine, as postulated by Imam Jaffar Al-Saqqiq, is he a part of God? The answer is No, Our Imam has made that clear on several occasions, when asked the same question. He is God’s representative for Isma’ilis as all imams are seen, he brings no message but interprets in both secular and religious matters the faith within the context of the age.

Both his elder sons are Isma’ilis and do indeed follow him, I would be fascinated if you had evidence that supposed otherwise.

It is Important as Shia & as Muslim to work on what we share not what separates us. what brings our common hopes and dreams closser to realisation.

Salaam everyone.

[Orion]

Salam o Alekum,

Thanks for your answer.

Could you please tell us about the Ismaily daily morning and evening "Dua". How is it said word by word?

You talked about "year long spritual and moral fasts" but what about the month long physical fast of Ramadhan?

It may be true that Indian Muslims involve in Muslical programs and watch indian movies BUT all religius leaders prohibit them and tell them to keep away from such activites. I had asked you why the Ismaili religius leaders i.e. the Mukhis, don't stop them. In a close community like Ismaili where many attend the Jamat Khana. It should be easy to promote ideas against such sinfull acts. Why is it so?

Allah says in quran:

[b:post_uid0]And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers[/b:post_uid0], or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

(Quran 24:031)

How do you think the Ismaili women who go to Jamat Khana follow this ayat?

Both his elder sons are Isma’ilis and do indeed follow him, I would be fascinated if you had evidence that supposed otherwise.

This is not true. I would assume that since you are new to the Ismaili you dont know all. Ask a well informed Ismaili and he will tell you the story. Both of his sons have refused to follow their own father. They have become Sunni. They have also refused to be the next Imam.

My question about Riba (Intrest money) remains un answered.

Sincerely

[Peer]

Aslamo 3alikum,

If I'd see Prince Karim Aga Khan, as a common man, then he has done a lot of great things, his organisations are doing great jobs, and he himself is also a nice man...

But if we see him as Imam, then  :s ,It'd be something really different......

[Hussain]

salaam Macavaty,

Do you like ismaili history? Do you like Hasan Sabah and the hasassins, too? Couse Aga Khan followers believe that he was a hero. They allied with the crusaders against the muslims. And not only against sunni muslims, but against twelver shias, too. Hasan Sabah's gang killed shias and sunnis, too.

(There is a good book written by a lebanese writer, Amin Maalouf: The Crusades Through Arab Eyes, read it ppl, really good :) )

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear, Orian and friends,

There seems to be allot of posts, so I will deal with them all in turn briefly.

Orian, I am as I said still in the process of becoming Sha, of the Isma’ili tarqiah…so as yet I have not come to prayers with my tutor.

However your in luck as he is going to show them to me in our next session, we have holidays but I will try to get it scheduled ASAP. And will gladly post them up…most of the Isma’ili religious practices were kept secret however much of their teachings and secret weightings have been published recently, I Imagine the Imam is opening them up.

The prayers are long…so if there is no objection to me posting such a file I would be happy to scan it in and paste it.

I will deal with the other issues you raised soon Inshallah

As-Salaam Alikum

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear Sayed & Friends,

                                   

First let me thank you  Sayed for mentioning that you intended no malice at the end of your post.

Brother first let me ask you who the author of this work was, and when it was written.

I have done extensive research into Isma’ili…one of the great problems is that, Isma’ili Libraries were burnt down…through history, and traditionally the sources of information on Isma;’ilism were usually the Crusaders, or the Sunni, or Ithna Aseri….members who were not entirely neutral.

This changed with the works of great scholors who recovered authentic Isma’ili Literature of the Alamut (Assassin period) in central Asia. The study of these texts was headed by Wladmir Ivanow.

Texts dating from the Eariler Fathimid period survived of a religious nature, because of the Must’alian Branch of Isma’ilism. Now represented by the Bohra in India, and Yemeni/Saudi Sulaymani.

The 5 pillers of Islam you mentioned, are part of Isma’ili doctrine, along with Walaya (loyalty to the Imam) and Tahira (Ritual Purity)….all these five pillers take various forms. Yet survive.

Ya Ali Madad!

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear, Peer Syed Sahib,

                                    I liked your post, as you said the Agha Khan does allot of charity and is a “nice” man…you went onto say that you however did not see him as an Imam because of various other reasons…well if you did see him as Imam you would be Isma’ili.

Recognising his works and deeds as good in themselves, is important in bridging the gap between our people, even if we cannot bridge the theological gap.

Yours was a short and very welcomed post, the closest we got to mutual understanding so far.

Sincerely,

               Cat (meeooooow)

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear, Hussain,

An interesting if a little incorrect post.

To answer you first question “Yes!, I do like Isma’ili History”

You then Asked what I thought of Hassan I Sabbah

“Yes I am very fond of Hassan.”

Now I have not read Amin Maaloufs book…so I cant comment, I will have to add it to my reading list.

To deal with the misconception and over simplified version of historical events that your post alluded to… Below I have noted “5” crucial, points to remember when trying to grasp the actions of the “Hasassins” as you called them.

1) The first crusade took place…when both North Africa, the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina, and the fertile crescent (Syria, Lebanon Palestine) were all under the control of the Isma’ili Imams, under the Fatimid Empire today called the “greatest Empire Shiism ever gave birth to”.

2) When Hassan first seized the fortress of Alamut whilst working as a    

    cook in the Kitchen, he seized it in the name of Imam Al Mustansir      

    Billah, who was the ruler of many lands including, Jerusalem in      

    Palestine, it was in fact, The Isma’ili Fatimid Empire that was      

    invaded by the Crusaders.

3) great mass genocide of Isma’ilis civilians, throughout this period for example in 446AH/1093 around Isfahan, the city people killed and tortured an Isma’ili couple, and then rounded up anyone suspected of being an Isma’ili and threw them to a large bonfire in the middle of town…see the Saljuq Nama, by Zahir al-Din Nisapuri pp40-41 I can give you some other non Isma’ili writings from that period…that document the many acts of violence against Isma’ilis.

3) Compare the above with, Hassan I Sabbah, who did not keep  

   indulgent Harems, or drink. A man who lived a simple pious life.

   Someone who protected his enemies when they ran to him for  

   Shelter, with what little recourses he had, Hassan, still went on fund

  scientific experiments, and had a great library at Alamut.

4) Isma’ilis who only ever attacked military or  

   other individuals either directly involved in the Murder of Isma’ilis or  

   those conspiring to attack the Isma’ilis.

5) After the death of the Seljuq Sultan, Malik Shah…the Seljuqs  

   predictably fought amongst themselves like all the othe regimes of

   that era, The Alamut Isma’ili remained united, even after Hassans

  death…and his successors.

 

If your really interested in learning more, read Dr. Fahad Daftary’s “The Assassin Legends”.

As-Salaam Alikum

:)

[Orion]

Dear Macavity_the_Mysterious_Cat,

Orian, I am as I said still in the process of becoming Sha, of the Isma’ili tarqiah…so as yet I have not come to prayers with my tutor.

I am waiting to learn the daily Ismaili prayers  (Ginan) from you.

Thanks.

[Akhi]

Brother Macavity_the_Mysterious_Cat Salaam o 3alykum,

How are you?

I have two points brother, u stated in one of ur previous posts that the Ismaili sect has been practising taqiyyah for much time and so thats why we dont see much of them in todays world...if this is so then it may be that in actual TRUTH they do have contradictions with the quran...i mean why should they practise taqiyyah infront of the Shia who sometimes have to practise taqiyyah infront of the our Sunni brothers..the shia understand why taqiyyah is practised...its so that no harm comes to them because of so many false accusations. Wouldnt it be a better idea if the Ismaili sect were to prove themselves infront of the Shia sect who also have to prove themselves infront of the wahabi sect...I hope you understand what I mean, its very hard to describe what I am trying to tell you brother. :)

Second of all, I take it you tutor is from the Ismaili sect. Does he compare the beliefs of the twelvers to the ismailis?...if you dont mind me asking bro.

I hope i havent offended you or any other person...if I have may you please forgive me.

In the end I would say Allahhu wa-3alim (Allah knows best).

Thank you for your time.

Ma-salama

[Orion]

“Yes!, I do like Isma’ili History”

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear, Akhi

                 Salaam, it was good to hear from you again. Alhumduliallah I am well thank you brother. Just a little stress here and there from work :) I will answer your questions in a mixed manner Inshallah I will get through them all.

Isma’ilis because of Taqiyya, do not try to convert people. Da’wa is only given to practicing Isma’ilis, or those who come to the Tarqiah asking to be admitted (people like me) they then go through a “process” before they are taken into the Tariqah.

You are very right when you say “taqiyyah is practised...its so that no harm comes to them because of so many false accusations.” As I have seen there are many people online usually Wahabbi…who have started campaigns of the worst kind against Shia Imami Isma’ili, with false accusations, unfortunately many other Sunni, and even Shia in general have fell prey to these lies.  Sometimes they just bend the truth enough as to make something appear as evil, or unislamic.

Let me make clear at this point, that I acknowledge that Isma’ili as practiced by those who follow the Agha Khan as Imam, is very different and hard for many Muslims to accept. I can accept that this is sadly the case. However I do not like lies, or people bending the truth for no other reason but to attack Isma’ilis, what satisfaction do such people reap from these unethical practices, I will never know.

You are once again right brother Akhi when you say “Wouldnt it be a better idea if the Ismaili sect were to prove themselves in front of the Shia sect” The problem is brother Akhi that people do not like change for Isma’ilis is hard to suddenly start talking openly about this interpretation of Islam after so very long in Taqiyya…but as I have said the Imam has started to publish works about the Tariqah, and amongst some of the younger generation attitudes are changing, and that is partially why I am here to as best as I am able transmit an authentic if basic concept of Isma’ilis…some which you may like some parts which you may not approve…but at least it will be authentic…and it will be intended in the best possible good will.

Finally you asked about my tutor, before one can join the Isma’ilis of the Agha Khans branch he/she goes through a process the finality of which is a tutor who teaches the applicant about the faith…so that at the end I will have a good enough knowledge to decide for myself If I am sure I want to join…as the Qu’ran Famously says ‘There is no compulsion in religion’. The course is focussed on many subjects, History, Beliefs, Practices, and Modern Institutions & services of Isma’ilis.  My tutor only covered the basics of Ithna’ Ashari beliefs, as we are focussed on Isma’ili beliefs.

All the best,

As-Salaam Alikum

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear Brother Orian,

                               I will post the prayers at the first convenient time, however you mentioned “Ginans”, Ginans are Songs of praise that are chanted by Isma’ili Khojas they speck about the doctrines...and beliefs of Isma’ilis…although also kept secret in the past, the Ginans have now been published in large numbers, I will give you more information in my next post.

You asked me about Isma’ili history and to comment on the work below by Akbarally Meherally, I will not comment on his work. As I wrote to brother Akhi above…there are those who wish only to attack with either lies, or bending of truths…the Isma’ilis, for no other reason then revenge and hate.

Akbarally Meherally, is one such individual…He is a former Isma’ili who attempted to cause friction against our Imam and those who were under his care…his plot failed and he was excommunicated from the Tariqah.  He then became Ithna’ ashari but was unsuccessful…and is now a SUNNI.

Akbarally Meherally Is not an objective source to study our Tariqah…yet Wahabbis and others love to paste his work as authentic. He is clear in his wrightings that he considers Isma’ilis non Muslim, he gives facts...but misses out crutial information...which cleverly leads one to a false understanding, having studied Isma'ili History in depth from great scholors and recognised leaders in both east and west, in this field of study I see through Mehrally.

You would not study or recommend studying Ithna’Asheri from someone who was an Ithna’Ashari himself and then converted to Sunni Islam and was now attacking you, would you?

If your interested in learning more as many have had misconceptions. I will give a list of authors who are all educated academics, and are objective about Isma’ilism and don’t bring anyemotional, or personal history…I.e.  “Excess Baggage” like Akbarally Meherally. Before I did my own investigations I would have fallen for his deceitful tactics, one thing I will say is Akbarally Meherally is very, very cleaver and subtle in his attack.

Salaam brother Orion

[Peer]

Aslamo 3alikum n Ya Ali Madad  :D

yeah right, I have apprecited what he has done as a social worker, Here in Pakistan he has done a lot...but we cant consider him as Imam for so many reasons..

I saw a pic of the wife of former Imam, Aga KhanIII ,She was wearing some odd dress and Imam was kissing her infront of all  :uhh: ,Can a Imam do this? by the way below I am attaching that pic....

This is to be noted that Aga KhanIII was the key member of Muslim League, and he was one of the founders of Pakistan.....I respect him as a social worker, but obviously not as an Imam  :)

think over it..

sorry I dont know whether it would be good to attach this picture or not, but I am just doing it to make this man understand  :)

By the way I got this pic from a Ismaili Site...in which Aga KhanIII`s wife has given her interview..

ma salama

Ya Ali Madad :D

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

“The Institute of Ismaili Studies, founded by His Highness the Aga Khan, promotes scholarship and learning on Islam, with an emphasis on Shi‘ism (Ismaili & Ithna Ashari).   The Institute hopes to encourage better understanding of their relationship with other faiths and societies.”

That is from one of the introductions to the Institute set up in the 1980s, to help tackle the neglected study of Shiism in the west. The institute has published a number of world acclaimed Academic books, on Isma’ilism and Ithna’ Ashari.

Included authors whose works have been published; Wladamir Ivanaw, Ayotollah Jafar Sobhani, Fahad Daftary, et al.

The Institute publishes a good many works on Isma’ili history. I recommend the following by an Ithna Ashari author, and one of recognised leading scholars of Isma’ilism and Shiism living today by academic institutions, although not all of what he writes Isma’ilis agree with, he at least tries to be objective:

A Short History of the Ismailis: Traditions of a Muslim Community

By Farhad Daftary

ISBN: 0 7486 0687 4 (PB)

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

Dear, Peer Sayid Sahib…

                                        I am fine with you posting that pic….as I have said before I don’t expect you to agree with everything Isma’ilis do, I also don’t expect you to see him as Imam! If you did you would be Isma'ili.

I am glad that you see him as someone who does good and acknowledges his good deeds. That’s all I ask. :D

The Imam did chair the all party Muslim league...for many years, his son Aly represented Pakistan at the UN.

Jinnah himself came from a Khoja family, but his pairents converted to Ithna Ashari…during the disputes between the first Agha Khan and his followers when he came to settle in British India, yet the Agha Khan and Jinnah worked well together as Muslims, to establish a state. This is what Muslims have forgotten.

Salaams. :)

[Peer]

Aslamo 3alikum,

yeah brother what you have written is true, but I asked you something ,that how can you consider someone as a Imam, if he can do such acts  :) ...I'll wait for your answer...

One more thing I'd like to ask you, I've seen on your sites that you people say Imam Hussain (as) , Imam Hasan(AS), Imam Ali(AS)....but when the 48th Imam comes you say [i:post_uid1]His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan[/i:post_uid1] ...

why is it so? If he is Imam then he must get the same respect  :s

waitin for your reply...

Ya Ali Madad :D  (The Ismaili way of greeting)

ma salama

[Orion]

as I have said before I don’t expect you to agree with everything Isma’ilis do,....

Brother,

The point is not what you expect from us or not. The point is what should one expect from a "Muslim Imam"?

=====

When someone asks us a question or raises an objection about our beliefs or practices we defend ourselves or explain to him useing Logic, Quran, Hadith etc. We do our best to convince him that we are doing the right thing...... We dont walk away saying "I don’t expect you to agree with everything Shia do".

Sincerely.

Edited By Orion on 1031188160

[Akhi]

Salaam o alykum brother Macavity_the_Mysterious_Cat,

Thank you for your reply. I will make this short and simple bro as you have many questions to answer...and so just respond to this request when you can.

Basically i just wanted to ask you...can u breifly just state what differences between the twelvers and Ismailis has caused you to move more into the direction of the Ismaili sect bro, I would be grateful bro if you could also give some evidence.

Thank you

Was-salam

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

As-Salaam Wa Alikum

Dear Friends,

                      I had never intended to get into a theological debate with Ithna’Asharis, and hoped to reach some sort of understanding or at least a consensus with the majority of you all here, in the hope of facilitating mutual understanding.

However if you wish me to attempt to convince you of the validity of my beliefs that would be difficult as I am not a man of great knowledge…however I debate with you…if we stick to sources of authority…ie we do not “KNOWINGLY” turn to those who fabricate or “bend” truths…if this is agreeable to you then I agree, to debate as example of what I am saying I will post some fake literature later tonight, that is supposed to come from Isma’ili but instead is intended to give misinformation…this type of false literature is very successful.

Also I would like to again point out that not all you hear or read about the Agha Khan is true! Like the post Orian posted by A Mehrally much of it was bent facts…or outright false, and Mehrally himself is not acknowledged at all by academic institutions. One must remember his history before taking on board what he says…I have written to many Sunni web sites who have displayed his work. As yet they have never had the curtsey to even respond, at this point I don’t expect them too, even though they claimed to “want to speck openly and honestly about various religions, and movements”.  I understand that Brother Orion and others would be taken in my him, as I would have been before I “hit the books” and studied hard on many aspects…although I myself admit I still have not scratched the surface. For now I will begin by stating briefly Isma’ili Belief….and the problem we face with what one expects from an Imam:

The problem of what an Imam should be like and should not be like…is one of great difficulty since this problem…stems of “expectations”, What I expect from an Imam may be in many circumstances very different from what someone expects from an Imam-I-Zaman (Imam of Our Time).

We should bear that in mind when considering what the purpose of the Imam of Our Time, really is.

The people throughout the ages have been offered Prophets and once the prophets had left them for even a moment they fell into Error, God in His majesty would then have to send a another prophet and another. For people always needed guidance, remember that when the Prophet Musa (SAW) had gone up mount Sinai, many of the people constructed a God again and fell into idol worship.

Now each of these Prophets, brought the same message that is the Message of ONE God, the ways to pray to God…to worship him, and the rituals changed with each prophet, but he core message was constant, this core Message is the Haqa’iq (Intangable, universal truths) which can be reached through the Batin (esoteric)…this Batin was always present never changing…but the Sharia (manner of physical law) which could only be reached through the Zahir (exoteric) message changed as people changed.

This is because as we all know NO society of people have ever remained, static, that is society is always subject to change even if we believe that we can keep things the same we can’t. Not Only people change and develop, but also Science, knowledge all things change.  Now this change may be for the better or for the worst. People may become weak in their Din, or they may become too extreme trying to hold on to the past…both these extremes are to be avoided.

The Prophet (SAW) gave human kind the final message, he also set the best example…But people would still fall into error…God knew this and to preserve his pristine Message…he Chose Ali Ibn Talib (as) as the Prophets successor…he and his descendants would interpret the message of Islam as the times changed…as regards to the Zahir, they would always remember the example of the prophet…and would always remain loyal to the haqa’iq which they would have access to through the Batin.

If God sent 1 Imam then he would have to send an Imam in every age, a visible sign of Gods covenant with humanity to always guide us…and never let us fall to error.  For If the prophet Muhammed (SAW) was the last prophet, then what need for an Imam? Unless God wanted us to be guided in every age as the earlier prophets had done…But the Imam unlike the earlier prophets could not, would not reactive a new revelation he would just be it’s interpreter.

P.S Saeeb

The Queen of England awarded the Agha Khan the IV with the title His Highness, as an acknowledgement of both his position in Muslim society, and as an acknowledgement of his work for the most vulnerable in society.  

This is a very Basic representation of Shia Imami Isma’ili system of thought. I will answer the other questions, after I have a little break...peace of Allah be with you.

[Orion]

Macavity_the_Mysterious_C

at,

Salam o Alekum,

Brother, let me make it clear that I am interested in only genuine Ismaili beliefs. I am not intersted in what others have said falsly about the Aga Khanis. However, if I hear or read something I should have the right ti ask you if it is true or not.

Now let me ask you this:

In your understanding what is the difference between a "Nabi" and an "Imam"?

Khuda Hafiz.

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

As-Salaam Wa Alikum,

                                      Brother Sayed Maher,

                                                                          Thank you for your post. I will do what I can to help you get a better understanding of Isma’ili Tariqah, and am willing to debate with you, if the purpose of our debate is to gain in knowledge and understanding.  However understanding Isma’ilis will involve some work on your part; and I am sure work on my part, to gain better understanding of Ithna’Ashari, I have only read a couple of books, perhaps you could recommend the best place to start. For my part I would advise the following to gain knowledge of Isma’ilis, and to remember when beginning to look for more information:

Much of the fundamental understanding can only come from “first” studying the History of the Isma’ilis, this will lay a strong foundation for later studies.

Allot of the past historical works on Isma’ilis were written from “works” collected from Sunni polemists, and Christian Crusaders. These gave a negative & often sensationalised vision of Isma’ilis, however it was believed that most historical texts written by Isma’ilis for Isma’ilis were lost, because of two events.

The destruction of the Isma’ilis two main spiritual and secular centres of Learning,  One the destruction of the Fatimid Empire, and the burning of it’s libraries at The Al-Azhar University in Cairo, and  the same destruction Dar Al-Hikma (house of wisdom). Two the later Isma’ili’s Library & Academy at  Alamut suffered the same fate by the hand of the Mongol, Hugulu Khan, and his Sunni Theologians.

Soviet anthropologists working in the most isolated regions of the Union, made startling discoveries in the later half of the 20th century, but it was only after the fall of the Soviet Union…that greater access was permitted to the mountainous peoples. Here manuscripts from the Alamut (assassin) period were recovered, only few survived in these harsh, isolated communities. But enough to rewrite much of what had previously been written. Also many scientists and historians looked more at the historical evidence and opened themselves to greater objectivity. The other smaller Brach of Isma’ilism the Must’alian lived in relative peace in Yemen, and preserved works from the Fatimid period of a religious nature, however much of these have not yet been opened to scholarly study, those that have give us a glimpse into life in Fatimid Empire.

So Isma’ili Studies is still in it’s infancy with all these important events taking place only relatively recently. However some great pieces of work have been written in recent years, and I would advise you start by getting at least one of these works written by academics. Of course Isma’ilis don’t agree with all these books say, but they are trying to be objective, and that is something we should applaud. Allot of first hand research has gone into them, rather then just repeating what was written by people in the past.  If you are interested I would be happy to help you on your way…or if you would like to debate, then I would be glad to oblige, however you must remember that I know very little at present.

May Allah be with you, As Salaam Wa Alikum.

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

As-Salaam Wa Alikum,

Brother Akhi & Orion,

Brother Akhi wanted an explanation of me joining the Isma’ili, rather then Ithna’Ashari, and brother Orion of the difference of  Nabi and Imam.

I will try to answer Akhi by saying there are many reasons, I have begun on one of them below.  

Brother Orion, the Imamate bears resemblance to the role of Nabi. A nabi is a conveyer of a message between Rasuls, of which our Prophet (SAW) was the last. Remember Nabi is a Prophet, and Muhammed (saw) was both last Rasul and Nabi. Below is a basic explanation of the Isma’ili Imamate and proofs, as I believe it:

Muslims do not have any choice or right to choose their leaders based on arbitrary decisions, or human politics. Muslims must base their knowledge on understanding of religious truths and law, through “ta’lim” of proper authorities; authorities or the true Imam, who is chosen by Divine order like the prophet himself.

Now there are four basic propositions by which we may understand.

First, we need an authority or teacher to teach us as we have always fallen into error, when we have been left to our own devices. Today we are weak without our dignity. Yet the Qu’ran says we are the greatest of all peoples. Our need for a Mu’allim is obvious…both in the history of religion, and in the history of Islam. Now the need of Aql’ (reason) alone is not enough, it is like a single pillar trying to support a wide structure.

Second, there must only be one teacher in opposition to the Sunni, for the Sunni in my opinion have a tendency to try to paper over events, or reason. For example it is obvious that Ali (as) and Abu Bakr (peace be with him) did not see eye to eye over who should lead the community, yet Sunnis will not take that their was a confrontation between these two seriously, and Ignore Ali (as) rightful claim. If you use logic Sunnis cannot prevail in the highest levels of logic, or Philosophy and so they deny their validity. Which to me is to deny gifts from God, as the Hebews denied the gift of Manna from Musa (SAW). The teacher must be Sadiq (trustworthy, authoritative).  So their must be one authoritative teacher or (Mua’llim –I Sadiq)…as many would ensue division and other problems.

Third, As Shia’s we face one problem here,  how to identify this single teacher. For him to have authority, he must demonstrate this authority. He can only do this by the basis of some further authority, who themselves must be proven by another authority and so forth…

Forth, Now to solve is dilemma of this teacher. We cannot know this teacher through something beyond itself , but by the very nature of knowledge, that is through a principle. We can only attain inner knowledge through the contrast of two opposites, which can only be recognised through one another i.e. how can light know it’s self without darkness, or darkness without light?.

The individual who knows, knows only that he has a need for an authoritative teacher, yet he does not know who, or where to find this teacher, or even the truth. On the other hand the claimant to the position of teacher or the Imam, does not need any proof beyond himself. Through the Individuals reason, and the authoritative teacher, we solve the dilemma.  The individuals need for a teacher through his reason is obvious and when he has reached this point The Imam can present himself to fulfil this need. Indeed it is through his very existence that the true Imam can fulfil his claim, that only reason can demonstrate.

Without a present Imam to fulfil both the individuals reason, and need. The rest of society falters; for societies are built on individuals. In my opinion without a present visible Imam the idea of an Imamate falls into a downward spiral. For what is Islam, or particularly Shiism without a visible Imam?

(This is my view only expressed although I have used some sources, as to why I chose Isma’ilism)

[Orion]

Brother

Salam o Alekum,

I agree with what you have said. But it was not an answer to my question. Or may be I was unable to explain my question.

This is what I had asked: "In your understanding what is the difference between a "Nabi" and an "Imam"?"

So what I want you to do is lay out the difference b/w Prophet and Imam. e.g.

-Define who is a Prophet and what is his job.

-Define who is an Imam and what is his job.

-Write down the differences (1,2,3,4,..) between the two.

InshaAllah after that we will discuss in detail this and other issues.

Thanks.

Edited By Orion on 1031314693

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

As-Salaam Wa Alikum

May we have the Peace of Allah through Our faith, and may it lead us to victory!

Dear brother Orion,

I will attempt to answer you question Inshallah.

Prophets:

1)A prophet must come After Adam (may Allahs Peace be upon our Father), And Muhammed Rasul Allah ( May the love of Allah comfort him always), he was the “Khatim al-anbiya” (seal of the Prophets).

2) A prophet may receive a new Revelation from God, which he then transmits to the people, these may change with the need, people or times, but it is from the same One True God.

3) A prophets may be told what to do, or where to go directly from God or through an Angel. A prophet may be tested, and put through many hardships to prepare him for his task.

4) A Prophets may at times hear a voice from God, or through direct contact with the Angel Jibraeel (Gabriel) or other Angels…and receive their aid directly.

 

Imamate:

1) An Imam must come from the progeny of Ali Ibn Talib (as) and Bibi Fatima (as).

2) An Imam must receive Nass “explicit” designation as successor by his predecessor, through divine  

guidance.  

3) All Imams are Ma’sum, in their decisions as regarding the community. They are ordained with

Marifa, “inspired” knowledge The Human universe is dependent on the need for there to be an Imam

in existence.

4) An Imam does not receive any new revelations; he merely interprets the message that was given to the last Prophet Muhammad (saw), using exegeses tools like Ta’wil, he can penetrate the hidden meanings behind the Qu’ran (batin) and arrive at the unchangeable truths at the centre of the batin (haqiqqa).

Hope this will do, As-Salaam wa Alikum!

[Orion]

Thanks for your reply. I agree with most of your points but here are my comments:

1) An Imam must come from the progeny of Ali Ibn Talib (as) and Bibi Fatima (as).

There were Imams before the time of our Prophet (SAWW). E.g. Prophet Ibrahim (as) was an Imam, Nabi and Rasool all at the same time. What you have said is true for Imams after the Prophet (SAWW) but not true for Imams before.

4) An Imam does not receive any new revelations; he merely interprets the message that was given to the last Prophet Muhammad (saw), using exegeses tools like Ta’wil, he can penetrate the hidden meanings behind the Qu’ran (batin) and arrive at the unchangeable truths at the centre of the batin (haqiqqa).

In light of what you have said. [b:post_uid0]Can an Imam change the religion[/b:post_uid0] that came to the Prophet (SAWW)? Also why do you think Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) is the Last prophet. [b:post_uid0]Why has Allah stopped sending new prophets?[/b:post_uid0]

Sincerely.

[Macavity_the_Mysterious_C]

As Salaam wa Alikum,

Brother orion...

An Imam can only reinterpret the message of a religion for the time within his lifetime. He does not change the religion, as he receives no new revelation.

I do not know why Allah has stopped sending new prophets. I can only speculate that Allah has perfected the religion of Islam, and has prepared humanity to receive that revelation, through his work during countless generations. Now this faith is left in the hands of the believers…and for those who seek him the Imam.

Wa Salaam