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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ahmad Ibn Hanbal

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RayRay

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Assalamu Alaykam,

This is not to 'fight' or 'debate' with my Sunni brothers and sisters, just a sincere question, but is it true that out of the four Sunni madhabs, only the Hanbali School of Thought believed in Imam Ali (a.s) being the fourth Caliph, and the other three didn't, but reluctantly chose to add him in after Ahmad Ibn Hanbal did?

I would like to reiterate, I am not asking to fight, but is a sincere question, and I will accept your answer, as you have your beliefs, and I have mine.

Wassallam

RayRay

Edited by RayRay
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but is it true that out of the four Sunni madhabs, only the Hanbali School of Thought believed in Imam Ali (a.s) being the fourth Caliph, and the other three didn't, but reluctantly chose to add him in after Ahmad Ibn Hanbal did?

Wa Alykom As Salam,

I thank you for your behavior,

All of the Sunnis fiqhs believe that Ali is the 4th Khalifah, I am a Hanbali, so I educated myself more in the Hanbali school, which is the fiqh that Ibn Taymiyyah and Mohammed ibn Abdel Al Wahab followed, when you read what Ibn Taymiyyah says, you know that all fiqh believs that Ali was one of the rightly guided Khalifahs.

here are examples of what he says in Manhaj As Sunnah, which he expresses the Sunnis belief of all fiqhs, comparing it with Shia and the Nawasib who killed Ali:

"They all agree (Sunni fiqhs) that he (Ali) is of a high level, deserving the Imamah (he means leading Muslims but not of the shia perspective of Imamah), and that Allah, His messenger, and believers consider him (Ali) better than Muawiyah, his father, btter than his brother who was better than him (Yazeed ibn Abi Suffyan better than Abu Suffyan).... "

manhaj as sunnah 396/4

so he says that all Sunnis agrees with Ali virtues and Imamah.

Mohammed ibn Abdel Wahab also, a Hanbali said :

"The rights of family of the Prophet,peace be upon him, are rights that no one else shares it with them, they deserve more love and loyalty than any other Qurashi tribe, and Quraysh deserve more rights than other tribes" this is in masa2l lakhasha 51/1

Ahmed ibn Hanbal Also said:

Al Bayhaqi narrated that Ahmed ibn Hanbal said "The Khalifahs are Abu Bakr, Omer, Othman and Ali." So he was asked "what about Muawiyah?" He replied "No one was better than Ali at the time of Ali, to be the Khalifah, may Allah forgive Muwaiyah"

Imam Al Shafe'ee, of the Shafe'ee sect says:

I witness that there is no Lord but Allah

I witness that he sent the truth that He continued (to the end)

And that the belt of eman(belief) is the clear talk

And the right action that could be increased and decreased

And that Abu Bakr is the Khalifah of his Lord

And that Abu Hafs(Omer) was comitted to the good

And I witness my Lord that Othman is great

And that Ali's virtues are special

Imams are men who people are guided by their guidness

May Allah uglys who decrease their levels.

please excuse my poor translation.

Was Salam Alykom

Edited by ugllyllion
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Assalamu Alaykam,

This is not to 'fight' or 'debate' with my Sunni brothers and sisters, just a sincere question, but is it true that out of the four Sunni madhabs, only the Hanbali School of Thought believed in Imam Ali (a.s) being the fourth Caliph, and the other three didn't, but reluctantly chose to add him in after Ahmad Ibn Hanbal did?

Wassallam

RayRay

bro raray whoever told you that was winding you up. its nonsense

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actually, it's not. Ali (as) wasn't included among the "rightly guided caliphs" for some time. I know I've heard or read this detailed by a scholar but can't quite remember where.

incorrect im afraid. ali (ra) was viewed as the khulafaa rushadaa since the caliph of muawiyah. it was only under the caliph of abdul malik and hujaj bin yousuf where they didnt like (ra) that they didnt consider him to be rightful caliph.

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yeah... ok, cuz we know what a BIG FAN of Ali (as) that Muawiya (LA) was, right???

Anyway, it also brings up the question (asked many times, but never answered satisfactorily) why Hasan (as) is not included among the "rightly guided caliphs"

because hassan (ra) didnt become a proper caliph. also the four rightly guided caliph were the caliph of the prophet (pbuh) as when he spoke about the sahabah (ra) , he would mention the four in that order.

whether you like it or not, it was under muawiyah that ali (ra) and the other were considered the khulafa i rashideen

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according to what PROOF was Imam Hasan (as) "not a proper caliph"? He ruled, didn't he? And isn't it Imam Hasan's (as) caliphate which so many sunnis are forced to cite as the term to finish the THIRTY YEARS of right rule followed by kingship, because without Imam Hasans's (as) 6 months or rule, the thirty years is SIX MONTHS SHORT???

So funny, to see you not changing after your time off... one would've thought you might've used the time to RESEARCH, so you could bring even a shred of proof for your claims... instead... you got nothing but MORE CLAIMS. :Hijabi:

and if Hasan (as) wasn't a "proper caliph", what authority did he have to sign a treaty with Muawiya (LA)???

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(salam)

if im not mistaken i remember reading a post by brother Ashiq al rasoul saying that Imam Al Hasan was considered the 5th khalifa, but not all agree , something like that

bro ashiq if im mistaken by attributing this to you , then forgive me ... but i remember a sunni brother saying so..

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^ indeed, but not considered the RIGHTLY GUIDED caliph according to anything I've ever seen, heard or read, except some unsourced claims here when it's been asked, but nothing backed up by a scholar in favor of Imam Hasan (as) being included in the term.

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there is no doubt on the great character of hassan (ra) but he is not a khulafa rashideen because they were the sahabahs that the prophet (pbuh) spoke about the most. ive said this before and as ever i am repeating myself.

husssain (ra) nor muawiyah although sahabi are not khulafa rashideen.

the saying goes that the khulafa rashideen were the khaliphs of the prophet (pbuh) , muawiyah was the caliph/king of the people.

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and Imam Hasan (as) was.... seems he'd have to be included in one or the other, doesn't it???

and yes, br. Umar, you do repeat yourself, but you don't bring PROOF for what you claim, or for your reasoning behind your claims... only claims, claims and more claims, with nothing to back them up.

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well, it would seem that either Imam Hasan (as) would be included in EITHER the khalifa rashideen OR a king like Muawiya (LA) (astaghfirullah)... but you seem to classify him (as) as none of the above, so I'm asking what "category" or under what title Imam Hasan (as), the FIFTH CALIPH falls into, according to you?

Edited by Aliya
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^ indeed, but not considered the RIGHTLY GUIDED caliph according to anything I've ever seen, heard or read, except some unsourced claims here when it's been asked, but nothing backed up by a scholar in favor of Imam Hasan (as) being included in the term.

No Al Hassan is considered the fith of the rightly guided Khalifah, some people say Omer ibn Abdel Aziz tho, but in my openion, the openion of As Salabi the scholar, Al Hassan is the 5th one. You find many scholars writting about The Khulfa Ar Rashidoon, one by one, but when it comes after Ali, they right Al Hassan. Then why does Shia not call Al Hassan Amir Al Mo'mineen ?

In fact, we call Al Hassan, Sayyid=Chief, because he has made the Prophet saying come true when he proved that he was a Sayyid, when he signed a peace treaty with Muawayiyah, and the Sayyid is who makes peace.

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well, it would seem that either Imam Hasan (as) would be included in EITHER the khalifa rashideen OR a king like Muawiya (LA) (astaghfirullah)... but you seem to classify him (as) as none of the above, so I'm asking what "category" or under what title Imam Hasan (as), the FIFTH CALIPH falls into, according to you?

there are four rightly guided caliphs in the following order

1. abu bakr (ra)

2. umar (ra)

3. usman (ra)

4. ali (ra).

these sahabi (ra) were the best four sahabis which the prophet (pbuh) himself said. as ive said before the saying goes that they were the caliphs of the prophet (pbuh) .

if hassan (ra) was a caliph after ali (ra), im not doubting he wasnt, its just that im not familiar to what extent he was caliph.

if hassan (ra) was caliph then

5. hassan (ra)

6. muawiyah

were amirul mumineen and caliphs of the muslims respectively. they both ruled in accordance to the quran and sunnah (according to sunnis). they were sahabis hassan (ra) will be the leader of the youth of jannah and muawiyah had the status of a sahabi who could make islamic rulings amongst the sahabah showing his vast knowledge.

as for umar bin abdul aziz (ra) im sure he was a great caliph but because he was not a sahabi, he is not as great as the caliphs that i have mentioned before.

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^ Bro, you mean 85% of the Ummah, or in other words, the "majority". Anyways, if you dont mind, can you please provide references to Muawiyah's (la) "vast knowlege" if its not alot of trouble?

Thankyou and wasalam

sure bro

narrated ibn abbas:

“I have not seen a man who is more fit to be a caliph than Muawiya”

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 57, Number 108:

Narrated Ibn Abu Mulaika:

Muawiya offered one Rak'a Witr prayer after the 'Isha prayer, and at that time a freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas was present. He (i.e. the slave) went to Ibn 'Abbas (and told him that Muawiya offered one Rak'a Witr prayer). Ibn Abbas said: Leave him, for he was in the company of Allah's Prophet.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 109:

Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

Somebody said to Ibn 'Abbas, "Can you speak to the chief of the believers Muawiya, as he does not pray except one Rak'a as Witr?" Ibn 'Abbas replied, "He is a Faqih

more like 20% of the Ummah who are still infatuated by Muawiyah (la) - go be upset umar khan...

so, umar how many Muslims do you know who name their children Muawiyah (la) ?

no bro its 90% of the ummah. i know plenty of people that are called muawiyah. i admit its not as popular as umar, bilal, usman,ali,muhammad,khalid, and all the name with abdul..... etc

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well, if you insist that all Sunnis have this kind of a belief about Muawiyah (la) then a lot of you Sunnis are seriously meesed up --- you need to some reading about the ahlul-bayt and clear up some basic concepts.

you know what i or sunnis believe on muawiyah. tell me bro whats your beliefs on muawiyah?? try and be constructive and dont just curse for the sake of it.

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"of course i totally disagree with the articles"

that ends this "discussion" then... Muawiyah (la) was one seriously screwed up individual -. And no, I do know plenty of sunnis who have no respect for Muawiyah (la) either ... but some do, such as yourself, unfortunately...

so, according to the Sunni fiqh you follow - if a Shia agrees (and just about any Shia will agree ) with the articles that I linked to, does that make a Shia "non-Muslim" --- ?

Edited by skylight1
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"of course i totally disagree with the articles"

that ends this "discussion" then... Muawiyah (la) was one seriously screwed up individual -. And no, I do know plenty of sunnis who have no respect for Muawiyah (la) either ... but some do, such as yourself, unfortunately...

thats your opinion on muawiyah. the "sunnis" that you know that have no respect for muawiyah are obviously not sunnis.

all sunnis respect muawiyah as he was a sahabah.

so, according to the Sunni fiqh you follow - if a Shia agrees (and just about any Shia will agree ) with the articles that I linked to, does that make a Shia "non-Muslim" --- ?

no. i just wanted to know if you believed everything on that website. thats all. and would that represent the view of the majority of the shia???

Edited by umar_khan
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Maudoodi, Waheedudeen Khan and Qutb Shaheed were Sunnis and were highly critical of the son of Hid.

mowdudi is not considered amongst the mainstream sunnis scholars. he is the jamati islaami leader. i think waheedudeen khan is a follower aswell.

the jamati islami belive that anyone who reads the kalimah is a muslim. (im not saying that i agree with this or disagree with this.)

your argument would be much more credible if you quoted mainstream sunnis scholars

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