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In the Name of God بسم الله

I saw God face to face...

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Christians are taught certain things that, actually contradict the Bible. They believe God was "spirit", only...

5: And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the

door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came

forward.

6: And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I

the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a

dream.

7: Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house.

8: With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech;

and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to

speak against my servant Moses?"

-------------------------------------------------

Genesis 32:30

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is becauseI saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

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32:24

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

32:25

And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

32:26

And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

32:27

And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

32:28

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

32:29

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

32:30

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

That was Jesus.

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I would guess the point is that some feel you are stepping outside of the rules of the site.

If that is the case, then you may want to examine your topics before posting.

If you ignore such warnings, you might receive one, and in time could find yourself banned from the site.

Then you'd be sol.

Nobody minds you bringing up points of interest, but at the moment it might be better to ask if your topics are true rather than blurting them out as fact. Up to you.

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I would guess the point is that some feel you are stepping outside of the rules of the site.

If that is the case, then you may want to examine your topics before posting.

If you ignore such warnings, you might receive one, and in time could find yourself banned from the site.

Then you'd be sol.

Nobody minds you bringing up points of interest, but at the moment it might be better to ask if your topics are true rather than blurting them out as fact. Up to you.

Please, give an example of "stepping outside of the rules of the site.".

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The rulz

For any questions or comments, contact the administrator at webmaster@shiachat.com

I have rather thick skin, so your posts are only "radical" in my opinion, yet others could be insulted by the way you decide to express yourself.

There are some very religious, and pios people in this site. Your threads will not run long if your points are not made in a mature fashion. You might be better off asking questions than telling.

e.g. IMHO, I have a feeling you have no idea what goes on with Christianity other than a few radical websites.

PBUY

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The rulz

For any questions or comments, contact the administrator at webmaster@shiachat.com

I have rather thick skin, so your posts are only "radical" in my opinion, yet others could be insulted by the way you decide to express yourself.

There are some very religious, and pios people in this site. Your threads will not run long if your points are not made in a mature fashion. You might be better off asking questions than telling.

e.g. IMHO, I have a feeling you have no idea what goes on with Christianity other than a few radical websites.

PBUY

As-Salaam-Alaikum,

I was raised as a Christian.

Attended a Lutheran grade school.

Have read and studied the Bible.

In short, the things I post are not just "from some site",

What I post is verifiable truth not, "opinion".

Now, if this offends some, so be it.

I will not refrain from stating verifiable truth just, to make someone "feel better".

YOU HAVE MADE A RATHER SERIOUS CHARGE. I'D APPRECIATE YOU "BACKING IT UP" WITH EVIDENCE.

Please, give an example of "stepping outside of the rules of the site.".

BTW The "administration" did not accuse me of wrong doing, YOU did.

Edited by chriz
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I didn't accuse you. Go back and read my post (#12)

Sorry about growing up Lutheran.

Nothing you have said is verifyable in my Christian life.

If you were to post, and insist it is, (like your posts) I could be offended, but I choose not.

I'm thinking the accumulation of your posts will add up to..."Christians are...) somebody mentioned "bashing", in which case you should refer back to the rules.

Just tryin to make your life easier man.

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32:24

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

32:25

And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

32:26

And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

32:27

And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

32:28

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

32:29

And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

32:30

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

That was Jesus.

are you stating that if I read this BEFORE there was a New Testament, BEFORE the birth of Jesus-God would have allowed me to die THINKING IT REFERRED TO GOD "THE FATHER"???

cat-shock.jpg

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I believe the man Jacob wrestled was his brother Esau, that is why he changed so....I have no proof and am sleepy though......

are you accusing Jacob of lying?...

Genesis 32:30

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Edited by chriz
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First of all, this is an interesting passage but a difficult one, both grammatically and mystically. You cannot read it like USA Today or a Sweet Valley High novel and expect to understand it.

Grammatically, it is difficult because, in the Hebrew, there are a lot of "he" and "him" and it is not always clear who the pronouns are referring to. Thus, one interpretation is that Jacob was wrestling with himself -- that is, with a mystical manifestation of his darker self. (If you've seen The Empire Strikes Back, the scene where Luke Skywalker fights himself inside the tree is a good model.)

The more traditional interpretation is that Jacob wrestled with was Samael, guardian angel of Esau and a symbol of evil (Bereshis Rabbah 77; Rashi; Zohar). See Hosea 12:4,5. Jacob's wrestling with him would symbolize the struggle with evil that he and his descendants would have from this time forth (Bachya ibn Pakudah, Handbook of Jewish Thought 4:29). According to others, it was a holy angel, symbolizing Jacob's future struggles with the spiritual (Targum Yonatan; Tanchuma). It is also possible all of these are true simultaneously. Indeed, in many views a malach (angel) has no independent existence, but is rather simply a transcendent emanation of the Divine that presents itself in the person's neurology as if there were a physical being there.

As for Jacob's remark, it too is ambiguous. "Elokim" normally means God. However, it also can, in certain contexts, refer to "gods" (i.e. the objects of pagan worship) or even an earthly prince (at one point God refers to Moses this way). Again, assuming it is referring to God, the most likely interpretation is that of a mystical encounter. If you think that is too confusing, explain to me Muhammad's trip to heaven on a magical flying horse.

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Maimonides ,

SO, YOU WROTE ALL THAT TO SAY "I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS".

SO, DO YOU BELIEVE THE TRANSLATOR JUST GOT IT WRONG?...

Genesis 32:30

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

BTW WHERE CAN I FIND THIS IN THE QU'RAN FOR, I AM UNAWARE...

...Muhammad's trip to heaven on a magical flying horse.

.

Edited by chriz
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If you think that is too confusing, explain to me Muhammad's trip to heaven on a magical flying horse.

That is a weak approach, my friend. The trip to the edge of the iniverse was a miracle, just like Moses' parting of the sea or his staff morphing into a serpent.

The right approach would be to admit that the matter is somewhat confusing and could perhaps be understood (if at all) in light of one of a dozen different interpretations, some of which you may have tried to deal with. In my view, your explanations do require a bit of faith to sound plausible. Miracles, of course, are an act of faith. They don't need to be explained by an article in the Scientific American. But you were not talking about a miracle. You were trying to explain something that, to some, sounded somewhat bizarre. So it would be best to say that the matter is confusing rather than to throw a potato in the hot oven and then to have a potato throwing match. Don't forget that potatoes don't grow in America alone, they are grown all over the world.

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That is a weak approach, my friend. The trip to the edge of the iniverse was a miracle, ONLY THE QU'AN IS SAID TO BE THE WORD OF Allah.just like Moses' parting of the sea or his staff morphing into a serpent.

The right approach would be to admit that the matter is somewhat confusing and could perhaps be understood (if at all) in light of one of a dozen different interpretations, some of which you may have tried to deal with. In my view, your explanations do require a bit of faith to sound plausible. WHAT IS NOT "PLAUSIBLE" AND WHY?Miracles, of course, are an act of faith. They don't need to be explained by an article in the Scientific American. But you were not talking about a miracle. You were trying to explain something that, to some, sounded somewhat Bizarre :o . So it would be best to say that the matter is confusing rather than to throw a potato in the hot oven and then to have a potato throwing match. Don't forget that potatoes don't grow in America alone, they are grown all over the world.

Edited by chriz
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That is a weak approach, my friend. The trip to the edge of the iniverse was a miracle, just like Moses' parting of the sea or his staff morphing into a serpent.

Well, that's what you say. There are other Muslims -- perhaps not Shia -- who say that the Miraj was a mystical journey, not a physical journey.

The right approach would be to admit that the matter is somewhat confusing and could perhaps be understood (if at all) in light of one of a dozen different interpretations, some of which you may have tried to deal with. In my view, your explanations do require a bit of faith to sound plausible. Miracles, of course, are an act of faith. They don't need to be explained by an article in the Scientific American. But you were not talking about a miracle. You were trying to explain something that, to some, sounded somewhat bizarre.

I'm not sure I'd agree it wasn't a miracle even under the most mystical interpretation. How exactly are you defining miracle? I view a miracle as a divine alteration of what we perceive to be the "natural" state of events, eluding purely rational interpretation, and carrying religious significance. If you want to say Jacob's struggle with the mysterious personage was a "miracle" in the same way that Muhammad's trip on the magical horse was a "miracle," it's ok with me. To me, Jacob's struggle makes more sense as a prophetic vision. Indeed, Maimonides (the real one, that is) suggested that all prophetic encounters -- including those where the prophet seems to perceive the divine presence as physical -- are in something of a trance-like state.

According to kabbalah (Jewish mysticism), the only thing that's real is God. Everything we perceive, including ourselves, is a slice of a unified whole. On that view, I have always understood the world to be sort of like the movie The Matrix (can't explain it if you haven't seen it, though you could probably search on the internet). Divine encounters that "seem" to be physical are the result of God altering our neural/mental state to produce a physical perception, much as a neurosurgeon operating on a conscious patient can stimulate a patient into believing his hand has been tickled by placing an electrode on a certain part of the brain. So as for Jacob's encounter with the mysterious personage, it doesn't matter whether he perceived it as a man (what the narrative text says), an angel (what the tradition says), or God (what Jacob says). None of them are correct. Jacob was mentally stimulated to perceive a certain physical encounter that did not literally take place but was rather representational of a supreme mystical encounter with the divine that cannot be understood or explained in words. The Sufis might know something about this.

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Well, that's what you say. There are other Muslims -- perhaps not Shia -- who say that the Miraj was a mystical journey, not a physical journey.

We are not talking about non-Shia beliefs here. Remember you are in a Shia site here.

How exactly are you defining miracle? I view a miracle as a divine alteration of what we perceive to be the "natural" state of events, eluding purely rational interpretation, and carrying religious significance.

Exactly and therefore the Meraj was by all definitions a miracle.

To me, Jacob's struggle makes more sense as a prophetic vision.

But you are the one who was trying to give other explanations. I can accept it as a miracle assuming that God was not involved in a physical fight. After all, how could Jacob be wrestling with his own Lord ? I hope you are aware that to us Muslims, Jacob was a prophet - a man of God who has been widely praised in the Quran and Islamic literature. We have no qualms in accepting a miracle from him. Does not in the least hurt our faith.

The part that people in this thread might have been intrigued by was a struggle with God. To me, that does not seem to be plausible or conceivable. God does not have a body, and in any case, how could Jacob, a dutiful creation of the Lord, ever conceive of a brawl with his own Lord ?

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SUCH AS?

A while ago here a Muslim cleric was encouraging young Muslim men to rape women who were dressed in say something like shorts and a shirt because according to him they "deserved" to be rapped because they weren't wearing traditional Islamic dress or something like that. Now last I checked the Quran condemns rape.

And yes Muslim men did go out and rape women because of this cleric's teachings.

Also chill out with the caps lock and stop fiddling with the size of the font. It's really annoying.

Edited by Bartsie
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are you accusing Jacob of lying?...

Genesis 32:30

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Who's to say Jacob existed at all? Who's to say that the story of Jacob (and perhaps the rest of Genesis and perhaps the rest of the Bible) wasn't simply made up?

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Who's to say Jacob existed at all? Who's to say that the story of Jacob (and perhaps the rest of Genesis and perhaps the rest of the Bible) wasn't simply made up?

If you take that approach, almost nothing can be trusted. However, Muslims, Christians and Jews share the belief that he did exist and that he was a righteous man.

You are welcome to believe that the story is made up. I will not waste my time fighting the issue. Go ahead.

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A while ago here a Muslim cleric was encouraging young Muslim men to rape women who were dressed in say something like shorts and a shirt because according to him they "deserved" to be rapped because they weren't wearing traditional Islamic dress or something like that. Now last I checked the Quran condemns rape.

And yes Muslim men did go out and rape women because of this cleric's teachings.

Also chill out with the caps lock and stop fiddling with the size of the font. It's really annoying.

The actions of those claiming to follow Islam, has NO beariing on it's truth.

Who's to say Jacob existed at all? Who's to say that the story of Jacob (and perhaps the rest of Genesis and perhaps the rest of the Bible) wasn't simply made up?

This is not a discussion about the "reality" of the Bible.

Currently, what Jacob is purported to have said, is bring discussed.

Edited by chriz
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are you accusing Jacob of lying?...

Genesis 32:30

So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Oh, did Jacob write his life story down now??

If the man Jacob wrestled was his brother, why in the world would Esau let Jacob live, after all the [Edited Out] Jacob did to his brother. Esau spared his brother and greeted him like one should do if they respect human kind. the fact that God is good is displayed in the stories of Genesis, so they probably attributed Esau's change for mercy to God.

anyway the statement is probably an expression used to express Jacobs thanks, thats all.

why do people say thanks to God when something goes well for them. and, if things would have gone the other way, they would say God punished them....

The authors views of God are expressed through what they believe their patriarchs views were...supported by tradition....I doubt the authors wrote this in order to screw with theologians minds, I doubt they had to worry about theologians.

Then again I'm not that well versed.......

Edited by JideoforHCX II
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