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In the Name of God بسم الله

Yanabi' Al-Mawaddah

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(salam)

A brother asked about a certain narration from a certain 'Yanabee Al-Mawaddah' written by a 'Sulaiman Al-Qundoozi'.

It should be known that not only is the narration (that the brother queried about) without a chain of narration leading back to the Prophet(s), but the book 'Yanabee Al-Mawaddah' is totally unknown in any of the Tabaqat compilations of the known books in history. In simpler words: this late compilation is incorrectly attributed to Sunnis without proof or basis.

Finallly, the Shia scholar Agha Buzurg Tehrani counted this book among the Shia compilations (Al-Dhari'ah, 25/290).

ws

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Taha so what are you this month , Salafi, Nasabi, Ahmadi? I guess it must be nice coming across as the real time hero of Sunnis, since your conversion back! Haq Char Yaar have a post it, in your name. Watch this space a nice rebuttal to your cut and paste rubbish will appear very soon...as will answers to some of the other rubiish you're always writing about

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Taha so what are you this month , Salafi, Nasabi, Ahmadi? I guess it must be nice coming across as the real time hero of Sunnis, since your conversion back! Haq Char Yaar have a post it, in your name. Watch this space a nice rebuttal to your cut and paste rubbish will appear very soon...as will answers to some of the other rubiish you're always writing about

Tsk tsk tsk :dry:

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Taha man,

I used to have a lot of respect for you, and I do read every piece of literature that you send us via e-mail and so forth. However I can never be sure that you are heading in one direction, one minute you have firm belief in one firm path, first sunni then shia and now you follow the path of Tassawuf which is viewed with scrutiny even by the standards of some Ahlus Sunnah Wa Jamaat Scholars.

How can we be sure that you will not be rocking a suit and bowtie in 6 months and singing praises of the "Honorable" Elijah Muhammad?

(Not trying to belittle you here or offend you mate)

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:)

Insha Allah, the point I was trying to make in the post will be absorbed.

As for myself, I am an ignorant servant of Allah, devoid of good deeds. As such, I don't deserve to defend myself or elevate myself in anyone's eyes.

May every truthful accusation motivate me to change my bad traits, and every undeserved accusation forgive me my sins and yours.

Edited by tahasyed
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Salaamz

Brother Tahasyed is a good guy, I generally believe hes doing this jehad to be on the right path since hes scared of the hellfire and hence keeps jumping in and out to different beliefs....but seems like his intentions are good and inshallah will be rewarded for that

What i learned every sect makes sense alot when you talk to them direct and socialise with them for atleast a month non stop... but you need time to reflect this by your self.. hene a hadith says,,,, minute reflection is worth 70 years of worship,,, since that one minute could set you free from the wrong beliefs...

You need to look at the facts yourself and analyse . be free from bias.

Even i had doubts of shias first, but that was then, now im more firm in it, but i deeply respect every single sect/religion out there. everyone thinks their right so you should have respect for them and if they want you can allways share your beliefs and have a nice decent discussion.

jazakallah

nice to see you here again brother taha

ps

i thought that yanabi al muwaddah was a shia book? lol

Edited by syed_shia
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(bismillah) salams to all! i think u people are following a beaten track . i would to share my veiws too

1) 'Yanabee Al-Mawaddah' written by a 'Sulaiman Al-Qundoozi':every individual sunni-shia having in depth knowledge knows that neither is qundoozi a front line sunni scholar or his book is any authority over ahl-e-sunnah. he(weak lineant in eyes of sunnies) is one among those sunnies those who more affinity for ahlul-bayt instead of companions.ahl-e-sunna could have deployed a better excuse against him rather saying the book is falsely attibuted to ahl-e-sunna its not the first time they did so they have done it on many occasions for e.g

a)they say book imamah wa siyasah was never wriiten or falsely attributed to ibn qutaybah.. what about kitab al-maarif in that book too qutaybah at times takes stand against companions like the lepoderma scar of anas bin malik sunnies once again say...no chain of narration :D ...for this incident check the whole issue hereburs of anas bin malik

2)books like faraid -us samtain and tazkirah al-khas have exclusive shia inclinations ..for what sake were they expected to be sunnies books????

3)balazari book ansab alashraf is of full of anti-umayyad narrations similarly tabari has individual sparks of showing affinity for ali and company ...within 5 years they will also not be included in sunnies books.4)lets not forget ibn-arabi futuhat-e-makkiyah

this is the most commercial type cheap tactic to say that book cannot be contributed to sunni library.

Finallly, the Shia scholar Agha Buzurg Tehrani counted this book among the Shia compilations (Al-Dhari'ah, 25/290).
there are many sunni aqeeda narrators that have exclusively reported narrations from imams they were lablled as shias of imams had more affinity for itra (as) of prophet (pbuh) . nadeem in his fehrest includes al-waqidi as under cover shia scholar do u believe in that tahasyed??????
'Yanabee Al-Mawaddah' is totally unknown in any of the Tabaqat compilations of the known books in history. In simpler words: this late compilation is incorrectly attributed to Sunnis without proof or basis.
he was much late historian(died in 1237 ah) how could his book be included in earlier compilations moreover not a front-line scholar
Aghamalang, Zafaryab & Lover of Ali :

Why dont you prove it to tahasyed that hadith quoted here from 'Yanabee Al-Mawaddah' are authentic and have authentic chains of transmission ?

no use our standards for declaring hadith authentic differ from the sunnies .i know in our countries like pakistan its hard to get a reliable scholar who understand arabic and has all arabic shia hadiths with him then only u will know the differnce brother coloreal by the way tell me whats the narration u are discussing????may i know secondly scratch the authenticity ofall sunni hadiths in favour of ali (as) ..u willknow not more than a handful r authentic for rest of companions nearly all are authentic??amazing naa

note:try to read or get translated arabic book itself they are much better

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why you all are diverting from the topic ?

Aghamalang, Zafaryab & Lover of Ali (as) :

Why dont you prove it to tahasyed that hadith quoted here from 'Yanabee Al-Mawaddah' are authentic and have authentic chains of transmission ? :huh:

wsalam

I was disappointed by Aghamalang's post.. thats all.. I don't know what the book is all about.. and aside from the Quran.. arabic books and me don't get along very well :).. wassalaamun alaikum

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(bismillah)

same old lame excuses/objections about shaykh suleman qandozi al-hanafi !! All of the [Edited Out] being used on the internet about shaykh suleman qandozi has been addressed here (as bro aghamalang was referring to):

Suleman Qandozi al-Hanafi

Edited by BOY-NICE
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(salam)

Jazakumullahu khair for that. It does indeed appear that Al-Qunduzi was a recent Naqshbandi Hanafi of the Indo-Pak region, and thus I stand corrected.

One never ceases to learn new things and realize the enormity of his ignorance. :)

'Ala ayyi haal there are nevetherless several inconsistencies that render his citation of the narration useless:

1) This narration was completely non-existent in the Sunni hadith corpus, and it does not emerge until Al-Qundoozi cited it very recently in history (d. 1294 H).

2) Several Naqshbandi's of his era and area used to attribute baseless exaggerations to the ahlul-bayt (as). Of such exaggerations include the belief that a descendant (any) of the Prophet (pbuh) is not harmed by fire. I am not using this as a 'proof' against Al-Qundoozi, but the trend is still worth noting.

3) His mere citation or ackowledgement of the narration is not a proof against Sunnis, unless he brings an authentic chain back to the Prophet (s) in which case we are obliged to accept it. It was for this reason that Imam Al-Thawri stated: "The isnad is the weapon of the believer."

Mere citation of a narration is not proof of its veracity.

4) If you read in the Yanabi', it states æÝí ÝÑÇÆÏ ÇáÓãØíä: ÈÓäÏå Úä ãÌÇåÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ. Thus, it is proven that he is not narrating the narration directly but is merely quoting Fara'id Al-Simtain of Ibrahim Al-Hamwaini.

Therefore, we have to know who Al-Hamwaini was, and know the isnad he presents for the narration.

5) Al-Hamawaini was a shia, and his teachers are well-known (Ibn Mutahhir Hilli, Muhaqqiq Hilli, Nasir Al-Din Tusi and others). His Shi'ism is acnowledged by Agha Buzurg and Ameen Al-Amili. He is included by Syed Ahmad Mir Mahdi, Ahmad Al-Bahraini, Hasan Al-Badri, Rasul Al-Muzaffari, and Abdul-Razzaq Al-Badri among the Imami (12er) authors (Mawsu'ah, 379). It is hinted that he was a Sunni because Imam Dhahabi was his student. Howeover that is not true, since Imam Al-Dhahabi himself dismissed him and declared that Al-Hamwaini narrated baseless lies.

6) So here's the situation: Al-Qundoozi is quoting a narration from a shia book "Fara'id Al-Simtain" by Al-Hamwaini and does not even provide a chain of narration. This narration is not to be found in any Sunni book.

In other words: The reference is not actually Al-Qunduzi's Yanabi', rather it is Al-Hamwaini's Fara'id Al-Simtain.

Just like it is understandable if a shia refuses to accept the content of a Sunni book, it should be understandable vice versa as well.

7) What is required is the chain for the narration quoted from Al-Hamwaini so it can be evaluated. Until then, it must be realized it is unfair to use such narrations against Sunnis, just like it is unfair for Sunnis to use unacceptable shia narrations that go against Shia beliefs.

To date, I have only seen shia websites quote Al-Qunduzi (who quoted Al-Hamwaini), but I have never seen an isnad provided.

So.. I stand corrected regarding my initial statement, as it does indeed appear that Al-Qunduzi was a Naqshbandi Hanafi. Regardless, belief in many of the things he narrated in his book would lead him outside of Ahlus-Sunnah.

But that's besides the point: what is needed is a chain of narration that leads back to the Prophet, and not the mere citation of a narration by Al-Qunduzi.

ws

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1) This narration was completely non-existent in the Sunni hadith corpus, and it does not emerge until Al-Qundoozi cited it very recently in history (d. 1294 H).

Actually brother Taair al Quds gave you tons of evidence from the sunni hadith corpus on the thread about the "twelve imams". It seems that you forget things very easily!

2) Several Naqshbandi's of his era and area used to attribute baseless exaggerations to the ahlul-bayt . Of such exaggerations include the belief that a descendant (any) of the Prophet is not harmed by fire. I am not using this as a 'proof' against Al-Qundoozi, but the trend is still worth noting.

Any sunni from any school in any era held weird beliefs. This was a common thing and dosen't mean everyone from the same school believed in such. If they did, well we could find many other big shot sunnis who also had weird beliefs but it didn't keep them from attracting fame. Some 12ver shias had weird beliefs or concepts, but it doesn't mean all 12ver shias held the same belief or that it was correct according to Shi'ism.

4) If you read in the Yanabi', it states æÝí ÝÑÇÆÏ ÇáÓãØíä: ÈÓäÏå Úä ãÌÇåÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ. Thus, it is proven that he is not narrating the narration directly but is merely quoting Fara'id Al-Simtain of Ibrahim Al-Hamwaini.

Therefore, we have to know who Al-Hamwaini was, and know the isnad he presents for the narration.

5) Al-Hamawaini was a shia, and his teachers are well-known (Ibn Mutahhir Hilli, Muhaqqiq Hilli, Nasir Al-Din Tusi and others). His Shi'ism is acnowledged by Agha Buzurg and Ameen Al-Amili. He is included by Syed Ahmad Mir Mahdi, Ahmad Al-Bahraini, Hasan Al-Badri, Rasul Al-Muzaffari, and Abdul-Razzaq Al-Badri among the Imami (12er) authors (Mawsu'ah, 379). It is hinted that he was a Sunni because Imam Dhahabi was his student. Howeover that is not true, since Imam Al-Dhahabi himself dismissed him and declared that Al-Hamwaini narrated baseless lies.

Bla,

Ibrahim bin Muhammad Al-Juwayni al-Hamaweh (644 - 722 H)

Imam Dhahabi while writing about al-Juwayni al-Hamwayni says:

æÓãÚÊ ãä ÇáÅãÇã ÇáãÍÏË ÇáÃæÍÏ ÇáÃßãá ÝÎÑ ÇáÅÓáÇã ÕÏÑ ÇáÏíä ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáãÄíÏ Èä Íãæíå ÇáÎÑÇÓÇäí ÇáÌæíäí ÔíÎ ÇáÕæÝíÉ ÞÏã ÚáíäÇ ØÇáÈ ÍÏíË æÑæì áäÇ Úä ÑÌáíä ãä ÃÕÍÇÈ ÇáãÄíÏ ÇáØæÓí æßÇä ÔÏíÏ ÇáÇÚÊäÇÁ ÈÇáÑæÇíÉ æÊÍÕíá ÇáÃÌÒÇÁ ÍÓä ÇáÞÑÇÁÉ ãáíÍ ÇáÔßá ãåíÈÇ ÏíäÇ ÕÇáÍÇ æÚáì íÏå ÃÓáã ÛÇÒÇä Çáãáß ãÇÊ ÓäÉ ÇËäÊíä æÚÔÑíä æÓÈÚ ãÇÆÉ æáå ËãÇä æÓÈÚæä ÓäÉ ÑÍãå Çááå ÊÚÇáì

“I heard (hadith) from the superior, the most perfect Imam and Muhadith, pride of Islam; Sadr al-deen Ibrahim bin Muhammad Al-Mouayed bin Hamweh Al-Khurasani Al-Juwayni, the Sheikh of Sufis, he came to us to obtain hadith and he narrated for us from two men who were Al-Muayed Al-Tusi’s companions, he (Hamweni) was too careful in obtaining the traditions, he was a good reciter, good looking, magisterial, pious and through him Ghazan the king converted to Islam, he died in year 722 in the age of 78. May Allah have mercy on him.”

Tadhkirat al-Huffaz, Volume 4, page 298

Same has been quoted by Allamah Ibn Imaad Hanbali in his famed work 'Shadraat al-Dhahab':

“Al-Dahabi said came to us ‘the Sheikh of the Sheikhs’ Sadruddin Ibrahim bin al-Sheikh Saaduddin bin Hamaweh al-Juwayni, to obtain hadith, he heard a lot and narrated a lot from Muayed aldeen al-Tusi’s companions, he told that the king of the Tatars ‘Ghazan bin Arghuon’ was convert to Islam by him, through his deputy Noruz, it was a renowned day”

Shadraat al-Dhahab fi Akhbaar min Dhahab, Volume 5 page 428

Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani records a detail account about this great Shaf'ii/Sufi scholar:

Ibrahim bin Muhammad Al-Juwayni bin Al-Muayed bin Hamweh Al-Juwayni Sadr al-Deen Abu Al-Mejama'a ibn Saad Al-Deen the Shaf'ii, Sufi, was born in year 44 and heard (hadith) from Uthman bin Al-Mwafaq the companion of Al-Muayed Al-Tusi and he narrated to Ali bin Anjab, Abdul Samad bin Abi Al-Khair, Ibn Abi Denye and narrated a lot from the people of Iraq, Sham and Hijaz. He extract traditions for himself and heard (hadith) in Hela, Tabriz, Amul, Taberstan, Shubak, Al-Quds, Karbala, Qazueen, Mashhad Ali and Baghdad, he traveled a lot and was interested in that (collecting hadith), he wrote and obtained (hadith). He was faithful, dignified, good looking and good reciter. Through him Ghazan converted to Islam, he arrived to Damascus in year 95 to obtain hadith, in year 21 he went to Hajj and gathered with Al-Ala'ei. Al-Zaheer Al-Kaazroni mentioned in his history book that in year 71 Sadr Al-Deen Abu Al-Mejama'a married the daughter of Al'a Al-Deen the author of Al-Dewan and the sedaq was five thousand golden Dinar. He also mentioned that he was authorized (to narrate) by the author of ‘Al-Hawi Al-Saghir’ , Al-Ez Al-Harani, Ibn Abi Umar, Abdullah bin Dawood bin Al-Fakher, Badar Al-Deen Muhammad bin Abdulrazaq bin Abi bakr bin Haydar, Imam Al-Deen Yahya bin Hussain bin Abdulkarim, Badar Al-Deen Iskandar bin Saad Al-Tawoosi and they permitted him from Qazween and he was also permitted by Afifa Al-Farqanya.

al-Durr al-Kaminah, Volume 1, page 20

Allamah Ismaeel Basha al-Baghdadi records:

“Faraid al-Samtain fi fadhail al-Murtadha wa al-batool, by Abi Abdullah Ibrahim bin Saaduddin Muhammad bin abi Bakr bin Muhammad bin Hamweiah bin Muhammad al-Juwayni, who is known as al-Hamaweh”

Al-Ezah al-Maknun, Volume 2 page 182

Read the rest here: http://www.answering-ansar.org/biographies/ibrahim_juwayni/

Ta Ta :)

Edited by Lucretius
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(bismillah)

(salam)

bro Taha, it seems that you are deep into the habit of making views in your mind about a certain thing and then yourself reach to a certain conclusion based on a few input from different outside sources. Here again, you have just made the use of your conjectures and hence trying to reach to a (dogmatic) conclusion like the era of naqshband etc . You mentioned al-Hamweh al-Shafii al-Suffi as a Shia to prove qandozi a shia, but as Lucretius posted, all solid proofs are pointing to the fact that he was a Shafii Sufi not a Shia.

Edited by BOY-NICE
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(salam)

Jazakumullahu khair for that. It does indeed appear that Al-Qunduzi was a recent Naqshbandi Hanafi of the Indo-Pak region, and thus I stand corrected.

One never ceases to learn new things and realize the enormity of his ignorance. :)

'Ala ayyi haal there are nevetherless several inconsistencies that render his citation of the narration useless:

1) This narration was completely non-existent in the Sunni hadith corpus, and it does not emerge until Al-Qundoozi cited it very recently in history (d. 1294 H).

2) Several Naqshbandi's of his era and area used to attribute baseless exaggerations to the ahlul-bayt (as). Of such exaggerations include the belief that a descendant (any) of the Prophet (pbuh) is not harmed by fire. I am not using this as a 'proof' against Al-Qundoozi, but the trend is still worth noting.

3) His mere citation or ackowledgement of the narration is not a proof against Sunnis, unless he brings an authentic chain back to the Prophet (s) in which case we are obliged to accept it. It was for this reason that Imam Al-Thawri stated: "The isnad is the weapon of the believer."

Mere citation of a narration is not proof of its veracity.

4) If you read in the Yanabi', it states æÝí ÝÑÇÆÏ ÇáÓãØíä: ÈÓäÏå Úä ãÌÇåÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ. Thus, it is proven that he is not narrating the narration directly but is merely quoting Fara'id Al-Simtain of Ibrahim Al-Hamwaini.

Therefore, we have to know who Al-Hamwaini was, and know the isnad he presents for the narration.

5) Al-Hamawaini was a shia, and his teachers are well-known (Ibn Mutahhir Hilli, Muhaqqiq Hilli, Nasir Al-Din Tusi and others). His Shi'ism is acnowledged by Agha Buzurg and Ameen Al-Amili. He is included by Syed Ahmad Mir Mahdi, Ahmad Al-Bahraini, Hasan Al-Badri, Rasul Al-Muzaffari, and Abdul-Razzaq Al-Badri among the Imami (12er) authors (Mawsu'ah, 379). It is hinted that he was a Sunni because Imam Dhahabi was his student. Howeover that is not true, since Imam Al-Dhahabi himself dismissed him and declared that Al-Hamwaini narrated baseless lies.

6) So here's the situation: Al-Qundoozi is quoting a narration from a shia book "Fara'id Al-Simtain" by Al-Hamwaini and does not even provide a chain of narration. This narration is not to be found in any Sunni book.

In other words: The reference is not actually Al-Qunduzi's Yanabi', rather it is Al-Hamwaini's Fara'id Al-Simtain.

Just like it is understandable if a shia refuses to accept the content of a Sunni book, it should be understandable vice versa as well.

7) What is required is the chain for the narration quoted from Al-Hamwaini so it can be evaluated. Until then, it must be realized it is unfair to use such narrations against Sunnis, just like it is unfair for Sunnis to use unacceptable shia narrations that go against Shia beliefs.

To date, I have only seen shia websites quote Al-Qunduzi (who quoted Al-Hamwaini), but I have never seen an isnad provided.

So.. I stand corrected regarding my initial statement, as it does indeed appear that Al-Qunduzi was a Naqshbandi Hanafi. Regardless, belief in many of the things he narrated in his book would lead him outside of Ahlus-Sunnah.

But that's besides the point: what is needed is a chain of narration that leads back to the Prophet, and not the mere citation of a narration by Al-Qunduzi.

ws

(salam)

Your analogy is flawed as their is a big difference, this hadith is quoted from a SUNNI book, although the source may be a Shia book, it seemed to carry enough weight for a sunni to accept it in his works. Your assertation that it is just like a Shia not accepting a hadith from sunni books is therefore baseless. In fact I am sure you are aware that Shias accept a lot of hadith from sunni books, and if you quoted the ones mentioned in Shia books we would accept them. Al Khoie has used many sunni hadith and managed to autheniticate them, therefore if he quoted a sunni hadith it would be deemed acceptable.

It is interesting that, apart from the Shia science of hadith validation being far more rigourous than the sunni one, it loathes sunni's to quote or accept Shia hadith, therefore it is a rarity to find them in their books. This seems to reflect a dogmatic trend whereby hadith are used as a tool to justify a particular position, rather than the other way round in forming a position based on which sources are deemed authentic. On the other hand Shia's have drawn on many sunni hadith, not just the ones that show the shortcomings of certain individuals, but many that also show their accomplishments where necesary if it is valid. Besides that sunni hadith are drawn on for historical purposes and for the derivation of fiqh. Therefore it is apparent that the Shia stance is much more rounded and drawns on a broader base of knowledge, and clearly seems more impartial to dogmatism.

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Salaamz

Brother Tahasyed is a good guy, I generally believe hes doing this jehad to be on the right path since hes scared of the hellfire and hence keeps jumping in and out to different beliefs....but seems like his intentions are good and inshallah will be rewarded for that

What i learned every sect makes sense alot when you talk to them direct and socialise with them for atleast a month non stop... but you need time to reflect this by your self.. hene a hadith says,,,, minute reflection is worth 70 years of worship,,, since that one minute could set you free from the wrong beliefs...

You need to look at the facts yourself and analyse . be free from bias.

Even i had doubts of shias first, but that was then, now im more firm in it, but i deeply respect every single sect/religion out there. everyone thinks their right so you should have respect for them and if they want you can allways share your beliefs and have a nice decent discussion.

jazakallah

nice to see you here again brother taha

ps

i thought that yanabi al muwaddah was a shia book? lol

I beg to differ. Even though I respect bro taha, his jumping from one sect to another isn't justified. If he really would have wanted to seek the truth, he would have long found it.

Imamat is a principle of religion. It means that you have to apply your logic and rationalize to believe and accept the concept of Imamat. If he can get convinced of the caliphate of the "caliphs", I don't know what's so hard in accepting the divine authority of the Aimmah [as]; if a person believes that there has to be a successor of the Prophet . One mutawatir hadith of Ghadeer or Thaqalayn and a rational mind is enough to convince a person to be on the truth.

Taha isn't seeking the truth, and even if he is, he is doing the wrong way - instead of seeking the truth with an open mind [as he claims], he is trying to defend his beliefs.

I agree that each sect claims to be on the right path, but believe me, bro, Allah [swt] has created our innate nature in such a way that during a phase, doubts occur and for this, Allah [swt] has commanded us to investigate our religion and acquire knowledge. So, if Allah [swt] has already given us the provisions and the guides to be on the right path, nobody has any excuse and Allah [swt] will certainly not accept this excuse on the Day of Judgement.

Allah [swt] has promised to guide all those who want to be guided.

Edited by SpIzo
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It is not new every sunni aalim who unveils truth and shows his love about Muhammad (pbuh) and Ahl ul bait (as) becomes a Shia in the eyes of Sunnis. It is a problem with Sunni masses that instead of accepting the reality they have got a cheap solution of labeling every praiser of Ahl ul Bait (as) as Shia. Now Taha bro label the author of Arhaj ul Mutalib as Shia he has also written this comprehensive book on Ali (as) and other infallible Imams.

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(salam)

Jazakumullahu khair for the clarification on Al-Hamwaini. I stand corrected regarding his madhhab.

One thing we must remember, however, is that Imam Dhahabi saying Al-Hamwaini was ÔÏíÏ ÇáÇÚÊäÇÁ ÈÇáÑæÇíÉ æÊÍÕíá ÇáÃÌÒÇÁ doesn't necessarily mean that he was meticulous about the acceptability of what he narrated. All he did was narrate. Also, it's not like saying that he was ÛíÑ ãÊÓÇåá or ßËíÑ ÇáÖÈØ ÝíãÇ Ñæì or something like that. These are some of the terms used for muhadditheen that were very careful about what they narrated based on the soundness.

On the other hand, Al-Hamwaini's praise shows that he was accurate in preserving the words that he narrated and not necessarily it's soundness.

Now even 4 of the Sihah Al-Sittah have weak/fabricated narrations in them and they were merely included in the books without the implication that they were sound to be acted upon. That is also the case with all the other musannafs, musnads and other hadith books (take Kanz Al-'Ummal for example, which has literally hundreds of thousands of ahadith authentic and inauthentic, all of which have to be evaluated individually).

Thus, Al-Hamwaini's narration (rather, every single narration in the book) has to be scrutinized and tested for authenticity.

I guess I shan't beat around the bush, and I should jump directly to the main defects of the narration. So here goes:

1- Sadr al-Din Ibrahim ibn Muhammad Al-Juwayni died in 722 AH, which means that he (obviously) did not meet Mujahid ibn Jabr who died in 104 AH. So there has to be a chain that goes back to Ibn 'Abbas, which would definitely not be authentic due to the non-existence of this narration in any hadith book prior to his recording it. 'Ala kulli haal, I'd want to see this chain if anyone can find it.

2- Another thing being the fact that the Jew is quoted as telling the Prophet (pbuh) that "you have spoken the truth" after every declaration. Certainly he would know the proper reverence for the Prophet (pbuh) if he actually were surrending to his authority as a true believer does. But his saying this indicates a certain level of arrogance on his part that makes one think that he believed his self to be more knowledgeable than the Prophet (pbuh) and that he was only accepting Islam because the Prophet knew what he knew.

3- The response "You have spoken the truth" is clearly a rip off from the 'Hadith of Jibril'.

4- The Jews were always known to be anthropomorphists, as in the instance when the Jewish scholar who came to the Prophet (pbuh) and said that "Allah will hold the Heavens on one finger, the Earth on one finger, etc..." And the Prophet (pbuh) then quoted ((And they have not estimated Allah as He rightfully should be)), which to many scholars was a sign of condemnation. That report can be found in Sahih Muslim and other collections.

5- This hadith shows the Prophet (pbuh) using kalam terminology to describe Allah, which he never did, of course. When he says things like

ÝÞÇá (Õ): Çááå (ÚÒæÚáÇ) æÇÍÏ ÍÞíÞí¡ ÃÍÏí ÇáãÚäì¡ Ãí áÇÌÒÁ æáÇ ÊÑßÈ áå¡ æÇáÇäÓÇä æÇÍÏ ËäÇÆí ÇáãÚäì¡ ãÑßÈ ãä ÑæÍ æÈÏä

This shows that whoever made up this narration did so during the age of the great medieval kalam arguments, as these theological terminologies did not exist before.

6- All of the following quote to the end is the clearest way of knowing its fabrication,

ÝÞÇá: Åä æÕíí Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ¡ æÈÚÏå ÓÈØÇí ÇáÍÓä æÇáÍÓíä¡ ÊÊáæå ÊÓÚÉ ÃÆãÉ ãä ÕáÈ ÇáÍÓíä. ÞÇá: íÇ ãÍãÏ ÝÓãåã áí ¿ ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ãÖì ÇáÍÓíä ÝÇÈäå Úáí¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì Úáí ÝÇÈäå ãÍãÏ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì ãÍãÏ ÝÇÈäå ÌÚÝÑ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì ÌÚÝÑ ÝÇÈäå ãæÓì¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì ãæÓì ÝÇÈäå Úáí¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì Úáí ÝÇÈäå ãÍãÏ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì ãÍãÏ ÝÇÈäå Úáí¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì Úáí ÝÇÈäå ÇáÍÓä¡ ÝÅÐÇ ãÖì ÇáÍÓä ÝÇÈäå ÇáÍÌÉ ãÍãÏ ÇáãåÏí¡ ÝåÄáÇÁ ÅËäÇ ÚÔÑ

i.e. the hadith mentions all of the Imams of 'Ali's (ra) progeny by name. Even the shias in history did not know who the present/future imam was and they would go around 'changing imams'.

And this is similar to the hadiths that were fabricated by some of the proponents of the various fiqh madhahib that made specific mention of people like Abu Hanifa and others on the tongue of the Prophet (pbuh) in praise of them.

- - - - -

I will repeat one of my gripes that I voiced earlier, namely: Sunnis should not use ahadith that are inauthentic to shias while trying to prove the soundness of their manhaj, and likewise Shias should not use ahadith that are inauthentic to Sunnis for this purpose.

There are many narrations in Shia collections that violate the Shia tenets but are deemed weak/inauthentic, and I am the first to say firmly that it is wrong to use such narrations to 'disprove' Shi'ism.

Having said all this, yet again I realize that Salafis (whose arguments I initially depended on earlier in this thread and shown their errors) do the exact opposite: they hide and tamper to win their arguments. I wash my hands from their error.

As for the Ahlus-Sunnah, they function within a framework of Usool (as do the Usooli shias) and it is unfair to use arguments that are contrary to those Usool.

I will make one last remark. I received several messages and PM's where people called me a 'wahhabi'. Au contraire, I follow the Maliki madhhab in Fiqh and I belong to the Shadhili tariqa in tasawwuf. So let us not forget that not only is name-calling un-called for and un-Islamic, but it also doesn't serve in furthering a discussion.

Give the Shiachat website server a break and cut down on unnecessary hate-breeding remarks. :)

Also, give your angels a break. Surely talking less is the sign of a true Mu'min. I remind myself before I remind you.

ws

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