Question For U.S. Evangelicals

[curious american]

One of the remarkable developments in my lifetime has been to watch the Protestant churches suddenly drop their traditional anti-Semitism and replace it with an equally rabid philo-Semitism, i.e., support for all things Jewish and especially the State of Israel.

Jews in the U.S. are skeptical of this transformation, to put it mildly. They ascribe it to so-called "End Times" mythology, which holds that Jesus Christ can't reappear on earth unless Israel is a state, and that certain things must happen including all of these wars. And of course, George W. Bush is an evangelical Christian, leading some Americans to wonder whether he's pursuing policies aimed at bringing war and the "End Times" about.

With that introduction, I want to pose a hypothetical question.

Imagine that, in all of those Dead Sea scrolls that are still being examined, there was found a new scripture that predicted the Second Coming of Christ to occur not after a big war in the Middle East but in the town of Billings, Montana on a beautiful sunny day. And further imagine that the new scripture, which was authenticated by the world's leading Christian authorities, made no mention of Israel.

How would your views of Israel and Jews change? Just wondering.

[oldsword81]

good one....sadly i doubt they will answer...from my own observations, they dont like to talk about these things

[salah]

Israel would be forced to comply with arab friends :D

[alqaid]

i have nothing per se against jews. zionism is the desease that should be eradicated so that means "israel" as wel

[Ali Zaki]

(salam)

Unfortunately, most Evangelical Christians are (in general) short on critical thinking skills when it comes to their religion. They rarely (if ever) examine their basic assumptions about their religious beliefs and, instead, focus on reinforcing (by consensus of LIKE MINDED individuals) and "selling" their beliefs on tv, magazines, radio, in person, etc.

They see their religion more like the hometown football team then a belief system.

It took the Zionists many years of long, hard struggle and oppression from Christians to finally "infiltrate" the belief system of Christianity. The problem is that now that they have done so it's very hard to dislodge them precisely because of the distaste of Protestant, Evangelical Christians for introspection and questioning their basic assumptions and beliefs.

They hesitate to do this because they have no way of approching critical, doctrinal analysis other then to ACCEPT EVERYTHING OR REJECT EVERYTHING.

[wisken]

(salam)

Unfortunately, most Evangelical Christians are (in general) short on critical thinking skills when it comes to their religion. They rarely (if ever) examine their basic assumptions about their religious beliefs and, instead, focus on reinforcing (by consensus of LIKE MINDED individuals) and "selling" their beliefs on tv, magazines, radio, in person, etc.

They see their religion more like the hometown football team then a belief system.

They hesitate to do this because they have no way (ed: WTF?) of approching critical, doctrinal analysis other then to ACCEPT EVERYTHING OR REJECT EVERYTHING.

Wow.... what hubris....!! :squeez:

I suppose we're supposed to swallow with a straight face the canard that Muslims are not guilty of the same? That Muslims are absolute paragons of virtue when it comes to accepting and encouraging critical examination of their faith, be it by themselves or by anyone else?

Please get off your high horse....

The regular silencing of members who voice their criticisms (sometimes without much tact, I'll admit) speaks otherwise.

[Ali Fazel]

Wow.... what hubris....!! :squeez:

I suppose we're supposed to swallow with a straight face the canard that Muslims are not guilty of the same? That Muslims are absolute paragons of virtue when it comes to accepting and encouraging critical examination of their faith, be it by themselves or by anyone else?

Please get off your high horse....

The regular silencing of members who voice their criticisms (sometimes without much tact, I'll admit) speaks otherwise.

So you decided to come out of you hiding place LOL

You don’t have to swallow anything. You never do.

Even when you see naked aggression by less then 1% of this world upon the 99% -- You being very intelligent will give benefit of doubt to the oppressors and without a thought condemn the 99%, of either lying, or living in the dream world or supporting conspiracy theories.

Please get back into that hiding hole --- now that we have seen your face :)

Edited August 8, 2006 by Ali Fazel

[Ali Zaki]

Wow.... what hubris....!! :squeez:

I suppose we're supposed to swallow with a straight face the canard that Muslims are not guilty of the same? That Muslims are absolute paragons of virtue when it comes to accepting and encouraging critical examination of their faith, be it by themselves or by anyone else?

Please get off your high horse....

The regular silencing of members who voice their criticisms (sometimes without much tact, I'll admit) speaks otherwise.

Here's the difference,

SOME Muslims ARE guilty as well, however, Islam (as a religion) HIGHLY ENCOURAGES critical thinking and examination of one's basic beliefs and assumptions....EVANGELICAL, PROTESTANT CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT. If they did, you CERTAINLY wouldn't have a majority of them accepting such a basic theological "non-starter" as the nonsensical Trinitarian P.O.V. I have many personal examples of conversations I've had over the years with Protestand Evangelical Christians which clearly demonstrate this, but I'm sure you would dismiss them as anecdotal so I won't share them now.

I "silence" members who break the site rules, not for their respectful and intellectual criticism. If you have a specific example of a case where I "silenced" a member who was following the site rules then please send a PM to Wilayah to complain.

[El Andaluz]

The fundamentalist Muslim approach is no different than the fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Protestant approach. Fundamentalism is the same in any religion and represents the same danger everywhere. Do you tell me that bin-Ladern is less dangerous than Jerry Falwell?

[Ali Zaki]

The fundamentalist Muslim approach is no different than the fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Protestant approach. Fundamentalism is the same in any religion and represents the same danger everywhere. Do you tell me that bin-Ladern is less dangerous than Jerry Falwell?

(salam)

Here is the definition of fundamentalism:

" A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

SOURCE: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fundamentalist

We must be careful of the words we use. The actual word itself "fundamentalism" is a non-sequitor in regards to Islam. Of course, it's often used by Muslims to describe certain sects (such as Wahabbi's/Nasibi's/Salafi's), but it doesn't apply to Islam (if we look at the definition of the word).

The Holy Quran is a book of divine princples which ALL Muslims MUST adhere to. We are intolerant of views which stand in opposition to the teachings of the Holy Quran as part of our faith. This is agreed upon by ALL Muslims. The word "secularism" is non-applicable in Islam as their is no division between "politics and religion", "church and state" as taught by the Prophet Mohammad (as) and the Holy Quran. All Muslims agree on this.

The reason that the term "fundamentalism" is applied to Christians is because the Bible contains many errors and contradictory statements and if a person is going to "strictly adhere" to Biblical teachings they would be acting in an irrational or highly selective manner. The idea of seperation between "church and state" is a Western idea which was meant to protect the society from those in power using religion as a tool of oppression (as was done for hundreds of years by the Roman Catholic and Anglican Church).

The sects of Islam which are most often described as "fudementalist" or "extremist" are not so in the strict sense of the term. The Salafi-inspired sects are simply engaging in selective reading and interpretation of the Quran (i.e., they accept some verses and reject others) and have accepted some hadiths and actions of Muslim rulers which are not authentic nor based on the Quran or the teachings of the Prophet (as).

Edited August 8, 2006 by Ali Zaki

[El Andaluz]

(salam)

Here is the definition of fundamentalism:

" A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

SOURCE: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fundamentalist

We must be careful of the words we use. The actual word itself "fundamentalism" is a non-sequitor in regards to Islam. Of course, it's often used by Muslims to describe certain sects (such as Wahabbi's/Nasibi's/Salafi's), but it doesn't apply to Islam (if we look at the definition of the word).

The Holy Quran is a book of divine princples which ALL Muslims MUST adhere to. We are intolerant of views which stand in opposition to the teachings of the Holy Quran as part of our faith. This is agreed upon by ALL Muslims. The word "secularism" is non-applicable in Islam as their is no division between "politics and religion", "church and state" as taught by the Prophet Mohammad (as) and the Holy Quran. All Muslims agree on this.

The reason that the term "fundamentalism" is applied to Christians is because the Bible contains many errors and contradictory statements and if a person is going to "strictly adhere" to Biblical teachings they would be acting in an irrational or highly selective manner. The idea of seperation between "church and state" is a Western idea which was meant to protect the society from those in power using religion as a tool of oppression (as was done for hundreds of years by the Roman Catholic and Anglican Church).

The sects of Islam which are most often described as "fudementalist" or "extremist" are not so in the strict sense of the term. The Salafi-inspired sects are simply engaging in selective reading and interpretation of the Quran (i.e., they accept some verses and reject others) and have accepted some hadiths and actions of Muslim rulers which are not authentic nor based on the Quran or the teachings of the Prophet (as).

I disagree with you but to avoid that let's replace the word "fundamentalist" with what we really mean and that is the word "Fanatic". Now don't tell me there are none in the Muslim world so please don't try to sell me a cat and call it a rabbit.

[wisken]

#1. Islam (as a religion) HIGHLY ENCOURAGES critical thinking and examination of one's basic beliefs and assumptions....

#2.EVANGELICAL, PROTESTANT CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT. .

You also posted further downthread....

#3. The Holy Quran is a book of divine princples which ALL Muslims MUST adhere to. We are intolerant of views which stand in opposition to the teachings of the Holy Quran as part of our faith.

Contradictory....

I may be missing the obvious here, but I don't see much room for #1, within the confines of #3. If one may not question, much less criticize, something that is considered beyond question, beyond criticism, engaging such exercises is pointless, isn't it?

I "silence" members who break the site rules, not for their respectful and intellectual criticism.

As is your prerogative.... however, when said site rules seem to preclude critical commentary when it comes to your faith or its luminaries, or even of political figures, its inevitable that people that voice criticism will find themselves having "broken" the rules. And especially if the language used has not been not nicely sugar coated.

Edited August 8, 2006 by wisken

[American Infidel In Kansas]

when said site rules seem to preclude critical commentary when it comes to your faith or its luminaries, or even of political figures, its inevitable that people that voice criticism will find themselves having "broken" the rules. And especially if the language used has not been not nicely sugar coated.

Understatement!

Another reason why a free people will never accept the "yoke" of silence.

[Peaceful-sunni]

"I suppose we're supposed to swallow with a straight face the canard that Muslims are not guilty of the same? That Muslims are absolute paragons of virtue when it comes to accepting and encouraging critical examination of their faith, be it by themselves or by anyone else?"

Yes we Muslim are good and examing our faith why do you think there is a Sunni sect of Islam a Shia Sec of Islam and many other.

In fact what did you think Sufism was all about?

[El Andaluz]

"I suppose we're supposed to swallow with a straight face the canard that Muslims are not guilty of the same? That Muslims are absolute paragons of virtue when it comes to accepting and encouraging critical examination of their faith, be it by themselves or by anyone else?"

Yes we Muslim are good and examing our faith why do you think there is a Sunni sect of Islam a Shia Sec of Islam and many other.

In fact what did you think Sufism was all about?

Sufism is, to me, a great source of inspiration and i have great respect for the Sufis but they are a miniroty in Islam. In all religions there is a sizable number who don't not examine their faith or use it fir personal gain instead of spiritual advancement. This is as true of Islam as it is of Christianty or Buddhism. I you believe otherwise you are deluding yourself.

If what you say were true there would be no Muslim terrorists, No bin-Ladens or Zarqawis and if I were to same the same thing about the Catholic Church there would be no IRA and no "Guerilleros de Cristo Rey." You can no advance your faith by denying its heretics.

[Path2Felicity]

Wisken- Islam encourages critical thinking and evaluation of both Islam itself and many other religions. HOWEVER, once you accept Islam (the word itself means SUBMISSION) you are bound by Islamic law and principles. Also, once you are a follower of the religion, you question to seek knowledge, not so you can reject. It's a change in mindset.

Wasalaam

[curious american]

Okay, you can all get back to the topic now. B)

[Iqra]

Wisken- Islam encourages critical thinking and evaluation of both Islam itself and many other religions. HOWEVER, once you accept Islam (the word itself means SUBMISSION) you are bound by Islamic law and principles. Also, once you are a follower of the religion, you question to seek knowledge, not so you can reject. It's a change in mindset.

Wasalaam

Very well put.

[Peaceful-sunni]

I would like to point out that there are more Sufi Muslim in the world then there are radical whabbai extermists.

[El Andaluz]

I would like to point out that there are more Sufi Muslim in the world then there are radical whabbai extermists.

Thank the Almighty that is true but they are still a minority.

For those who are interested there is an intersing book translated to Englidh by R.W.J. Austin call "Sufis of Andalusia". You can find it either at Amazon or a shop in Oregon USA called Powell's Books.