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How is saying "Ya Ali Madad" not shirk

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(bismillah) (salam)

I had previously concluded from my research that to ask help from anybody other than Allah(swt) is shirk. I remember hearing a Sufi say that there is nothing wrong with saying "Ya Ali Madad".

Can anyone provide good reasoning as to HOW this doesnt contridict Islamic teachings.

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(bismillah) (salam)

I had previously concluded from my research that to ask help from anybody other than Allah(swt) is shirk. I remember hearing a Sufi say that there is nothing wrong with saying "Ya Ali Madad".

Can anyone provide good reasoning as to HOW this doesnt contridict Islamic teachings.

what does it mean in english?

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(bismillah) (salam)

I had previously concluded from my research that to ask help from anybody other than Allah(swt) is shirk. I remember hearing a Sufi say that there is nothing wrong with saying "Ya Ali Madad".

Can anyone provide good reasoning as to HOW this doesnt contridict Islamic teachings.

This has been discussed in Detail

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=73371

Read all the posts by bro. Forgeforth

wsalam.

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To believe anything occurs outside Allah (swt) power and permission is shirk

A follower of Musa (as) sought his help, the sons of Yaqoub (as) sought Yaqoub's (as) help regarding their sins, and the Quran says for people to seek Rasool's (saw) help regarding their sins too

When you ask Rasool (pbuh) to ask forgiveness for your sins, he is helping you, how? the Quran says his prayers are a tanquility for the believers and his asking forgiveness for the believers does avail the believers - so that is helping you - whether you wish to acknowledge it as help or not

When you bless the Prophet (pbuh), he responds by interseding for your sake, and this is helping you, unless you think his prayers don't help you

When people ask Ali (as) to help them, they know he has a great rank with Allah (swt) and can help their case with Allah (swt)

No one believes Ali (as) has any power on his own, we all know Allah (swt) is all powerful and all power comes from him and no one can control a grain unless by God's permission because we don't have an existance on our own

The salafis know this - so they invented a knew definition of shirk - "you can only seek help by people who have not passed away from this world"

However - the most they can say, is that is wrong, to talk to the dead cannot possibly termed shirk, they have no basis for this accusations

We shias believe the case of the Prophets (as) and Imams (as) is the same as alive or dead, because dead just means alive but not seen by us, and we sunnis and shias both talk directly to the Prophet (pbuh) 5 times a day in their prayers, salafis however follow some sahabas who stopped saying it directly after his death isntead of how Rasool (pbuh) taught to do salat

Edited by Link

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Very well said!

When we say Ya Ali Madad it does not mean that we r saying that Ali is God...we r only asking Mola Ali that to help us coz He is God,s best creation n God is also proud of His great creation..n God can not ignore Mola Ali,s recommendation so in this way Mola grants us our wishes by taking our pleas to that supreme authority..He is source in that way....God blessed Him with so many powers....As in Quran in sura e taha Ayat 108 God mentioned it clearly that at the day of judgement God will not accept any recommendation but only of those to whom God has permitted n God is happy with them....so there is no question of shirk.....

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(salam)

I was reading the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir (Extensively used by sunnis) of Surah An Najm. And the story behind it was that the prophet of Allah said that Imam Ali (as) will intercede for people equal to the members of a certain Tribe (cant recall the name) . I would have posted the exact description but the website is down for some time now . Hope This helps somewhat in clarifying the concept.

And Surely Allah Knows Best

(salam)

Edited by Jarh

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(bismillah) (salam)

I had previously concluded from my research that to ask help from anybody other than Allah(swt) is shirk. I remember hearing a Sufi say that there is nothing wrong with saying "Ya Ali Madad".

Can anyone provide good reasoning as to HOW this doesnt contridict Islamic teachings.

Well obviously YOUR islamic teachings are lacking since u r forever in two minds about whether it is shi'ism or sunni'ism that u wish to adopt..saying Ya Ali Madad does not contradict with islamic teachings, if u were aware of islamic history even a tad bit then u would know that Our Beloved Rasool SAWW uttered these powerful words from their mouth mubarik..so do not jump to such "conclusions" which u have evidently thought so deeply about!..Saying Ya Ali Madad is not committing shirk, we are able to ask for help from those most beloved and closest to Allah as their duas will and wishes will be accepted far greater than ours...we seek madad from our Waqt ke Imam, HujjatUllah Imam Mehdi AS because if we are deserving they will inshAllah deliver, by the will of Allah SWT...still confused?...soul cleansing recomm..:D

why not just say ya Allah?

**alhamdulillah one should always seek refuge and turn to Allah Almighty...so why don't you then?..each to their own right?..do what u think is right..the day of reckoning is not far inshAllah so we will soon find out who and what is/was right...**

Edited by meem_ali

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why not just say ya Allah?

Perhaps this analogy fits:

Why do you go to a doctor if you're ill, instead of just praying to be cured? In the same way we can ask those that have the ability to help us in this world, we can ask those closest to Allah (SWT) for help for their intercession is allowed by HIS (SWT) permission.

As Meem Ali said

Saying Ya Ali Madad is not committing shirk, we are able to ask for help from those most beloved and closest to Allah as their duas will and wishes will be accepted far greater than ours...we seek madad from our Waqt ke Imam, HujjatUllah Imam Mehdi AS because if we are deserving they will inshAllah deliver, by the will of Allah SWT
Edited by Aliya

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Perhaps this analogy fits:

Why do you go to a doctor if you're ill, instead of just praying to be cured? In the same way we can ask those that have the ability to help us in this world, we can ask those closest to Allah (SWT) for help for their intercession is allowed by HIS (SWT) permission.

As Meem Ali said

I accept those that are dead in the way of Allah are not dead, but they are with Allah. From my quranic understanding, some dead can hear, and perhaps those who are with Allah can hear us. The real question is, can one who is with Allah actaully do anything for us? also if we have accepted that they are with Allah in paradise etc, they cant physically help us, thereofre asking them results in nothing except perhaps them passing on our request. However from logic we can conclude that the act of passing on the request should gain us nothing, relitively to asking Him directly, as we are either deserving of help or not. I have trouble beleiving that if we are undeserving of something, but ask the right people, we will get a good result, that seems unfair and against the quran's clear comments about fairness in judgement.

My understanding is that asking Allah will never fail, asking others to can lead to problems, so i only ask Allah.

Edited by iraqi_shia

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Guest Qt-Maram
Perhaps this analogy fits:

Why do you go to a doctor if you're ill, instead of just praying to be cured? In the same way we can ask those that have the ability to help us in this world, we can ask those closest to Allah (SWT) for help for their intercession is allowed by HIS (SWT) permission.

Nice, very clear and well said :D

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Salaams.

It is generally okay to ask anyone for help. However it is not okay to pray to anyone.

Saying "Ya Ali Madad" is obviously prayer. Just like chritians pray "O Saint Mary !"

Prayer is a worship only to Allah (swt). So "Ya Ali Madad" is definately forbidden.

These phrases were figments of extremisms created by extremist groups (Ghullat).

In the case of "Ya Ali Madad", my research yielded it to Agha Khan I (the first).

Unfortunately, this extremism is seeping fast into our shia brethren, may Allah (swt) protect them.

Wrong analogies given to justify "Ya Ali Madad".

Q1) You can ask help from your brother, then why not Imam Ali (as)?

A1) You are in contact with your brother. But when you are asking without being in contact, then that would be prayer.

Q2) Doctor's example.

A2) Does anyone spread a mat in their bedroom and call out "Ya Doctor Madad"? expecting Help?

Definately Not. So why is this being (mis)-used as an example? One does not pray to doctors. Similarly must not pray to Imams.

Q3) The Imams who passed away, are Shohoda, and shaheed are alive.

A3) Very true. But they are alive in Barzakh, not in our world.

They are dead / died in our world, but have been made alive in Barzakh.

If one goes to barzakh, then gets in contact with them to ask their help, then thats cool.

But we are not in barzakh, and we have no contact with the Imams to ask them.

Q4) Prophet called out to Imam Ali (as) for help.

A4) Well then, Prophet called out Abu-Bakr to help in freeing Bilal from Slavery,

So does it mean that we must all start calling out "Ya Abu-Bakr Madad"?

Note: Prophet took help from many people, but never prayed to anyone but Allah (swt).

__________________________________

The above are all webs veiling the true basis of this statement, which is "Ghali Beliefs".

The "Ghali Beliefs" were created by extremists, and may Allah (swt) protect true Shia from them.

Ghali beliefs range from minor exxagerations to major ones (like Ali is God).

Some other major ones are:

"Haazir Naazir", i.e. Prophet and/or Imams are everywhere, seeing everything.

Another is that they are always listening to calls of every caller eveywhere, all the time, all at the same time.

Another is that Imams have "Wilayat-e-Takwiniyah" whereby they are able to control every atom in the universe,

And that by doing so, they have control over the direction of our lives and/or affairs.

The above are clearly and absolutely "Shirk".

The true basis of "Ya Ali Madad" comes from these ghali beliefs,

and not the smokescreen reasons presented as in Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4.

We must protect ourselves from the Ghali beliefs.

The Imams (as) have always cautioned us to beware of Ghali beliefs.

One live example of people, even today, slipping into more ghali beliefs,

is the tradition of starting of ending written communications with "Ya Ali Madad".

This including everything else to do with "Ya Ali Madad" is ghali, and specifically Ismaili.

I hope my innocent Shia brethren, who know not, will in due time understand this issue.

And that in due time reform themselves, before it is too late...

Because Allah (swt) never forgives Shirk.

The Imams teachings are overflowing with data against shirk,

and against concepts such as "Ya Ali Madad", only if people can see.

Was-salaam.

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(bismillah) (salam)

I had previously concluded from my research that to ask help from anybody other than Allah(swt) is shirk. I remember hearing a Sufi say that there is nothing wrong with saying "Ya Ali Madad".

Can anyone provide good reasoning as to HOW this doesnt contridict Islamic teachings.

(salam)

On the contrary we can show you how your assertation that this it is not allowed to seek help from anyone else other than Allah (SWT) is actually in contradiction to Islamic teachings. Remember that we are asking Allah (SWT) to help us through someone who is much better than we are, and this is not only explicilty permitted in Quran, but we are in fact told to DO IT:

"And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful."

an_Nisaa', verse 64

Salaams.

It is generally okay to ask anyone for help. However it is not okay to pray to anyone.

Saying "Ya Ali Madad" is obviously prayer. Just like chritians pray "O Saint Mary !"

Prayer is a worship only to Allah (swt). So "Ya Ali Madad" is definately forbidden.

These phrases were figments of extremisms created by extremist groups (Ghullat).

In the case of "Ya Ali Madad", my research yielded it to Agha Khan I (the first).

Unfortunately, this extremism is seeping fast into our shia brethren, may Allah (swt) protect them.

Wrong analogies given to justify "Ya Ali Madad".

Q1) You can ask help from your brother, then why not Imam Ali (as)?

A1) You are in contact with your brother. But when you are asking without being in contact, then that would be prayer.

Q2) Doctor's example.

A2) Does anyone spread a mat in their bedroom and call out "Ya Doctor Madad"? expecting Help?

Definately Not. So why is this being (mis)-used as an example? One does not pray to doctors. Similarly must not pray to Imams.

Q3) The Imams who passed away, are Shohoda, and shaheed are alive.

A3) Very true. But they are alive in Barzakh, not in our world.

They are dead / died in our world, but have been made alive in Barzakh.

If one goes to barzakh, then gets in contact with them to ask their help, then thats cool.

But we are not in barzakh, and we have no contact with the Imams to ask them.

Q4) Prophet called out to Imam Ali (as) for help.

A4) Well then, Prophet called out Abu-Bakr to help in freeing Bilal from Slavery,

So does it mean that we must all start calling out "Ya Abu-Bakr Madad"?

Note: Prophet took help from many people, but never prayed to anyone but Allah (swt).

__________________________________

The above are all webs veiling the true basis of this statement, which is "Ghali Beliefs".

The "Ghali Beliefs" were created by extremists, and may Allah (swt) protect true Shia from them.

Ghali beliefs range from minor exxagerations to major ones (like Ali is God).

Some other major ones are:

"Haazir Naazir", i.e. Prophet and/or Imams are everywhere, seeing everything.

Another is that they are always listening to calls of every caller eveywhere, all the time, all at the same time.

Another is that Imams have "Wilayat-e-Takwiniyah" whereby they are able to control every atom in the universe,

And that by doing so, they have control over the direction of our lives and/or affairs.

The above are clearly and absolutely "Shirk".

The true basis of "Ya Ali Madad" comes from these ghali beliefs,

and not the smokescreen reasons presented as in Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4.

We must protect ourselves from the Ghali beliefs.

The Imams (as) have always cautioned us to beware of Ghali beliefs.

One live example of people, even today, slipping into more ghali beliefs,

is the tradition of starting of ending written communications with "Ya Ali Madad".

This including everything else to do with "Ya Ali Madad" is ghali, and specifically Ismaili.

I hope my innocent Shia brethren, who know not, will in due time understand this issue.

And that in due time reform themselves, before it is too late...

Because Allah (swt) never forgives Shirk.

The Imams teachings are overflowing with data against shirk,

and against concepts such as "Ya Ali Madad", only if people can see.

Was-salaam.

(salam)

I think you are mistaken, it is in the intention, and you do not know what is the intention of the one who says it. I personally know many people who say the phrase and do not intend it as a prayer but as seeking intercession. Everyone knows we can't worship Ali (as), thats a given, but by saying the above phrase in NO WAY implies worship to Ali (as)

Your other argument is that we are not in contact with them therefore we can't ask their help, however proximity has no bearing on the situation, and I challenge you to find a proof that it does. On the contrary there are Quranic ayat's showing the dead can be spoken to and they can hear.

fee aman Allah

Edited by Asif_Ali

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iraqi shia, as I said, certain beings will be allowed to intercede for us on the day of Judgement, that is established in Qur'an, and those would be those closest to Allah (SWT)

Also, on sort of the same note, there are hadith that shows even the possessions of Prophet (pbuh) were used as a means of seeking cure. The following is an excerpt of a post by sis Zainabia

Ummul Momineen Aisha and Asma bint Abu Bakr used to seek cure against diseases through Shirt/(jubba/robe) of Rasool Allah (saww)

Sahih Muslim, 1st Chapter of book of Clothing:

Can anyone still deny the witnesses of Ummul Momineen Ayesha and her sister Asma bint Abu Bakr that even the jubba of Rasool Allah [saww] was also able to benefit and cure the sick?

QUOTE

QUOTE

`Abd Allah, the freed slave of Asma' the daughter of Abu Bakr, the maternal uncle of the son of `Ata', said:

………. She (Asma bint Abu Bakr) said: "Here is the cloak (jubba) of Allah's Messenger," and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian cloth with a hem of (silk) brocade, and its sleeves bordered with (silk) brocade, and said:

"This was Allah's Messenger's cloak with `A'isha until she died, then I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah used to wear it, and we washed it for the sick so that they could seek cure thereby."

Did Ummul Momineen Hadhrat Ayesha and her sister Sahabia Asma bint Abu Bakr made that jubba of Rasool Allah [saww], a partner to Allah by seeking benefit through it?

Why didn't they asked Allah DIRECTLY for the cure from sicknesses?

Did they really sought help from that jubba in a Literal Sense that it had Absolute power to benefit them. Or they actually sought help from Allah, but from seeking help from jubba, they only meant that Barakah of Rasool Allah [saww] also includes in their request to Allah?

Very Important Rule Literal Approach vs. Hidden Intention

Even if the name of Allah was not mentioned by Aisha and Asma bint Abu Bakr, when they sought help from jubba of Rasool Allah [saww], but still all (including Salafi) believe that they didn't commit Shirk.

There are 2 ways to understand these kind of actions:

Literal Approach, which shows the Apparent (Dhahir) meaning, i.e. help was sought by the jubba.

Hidden Intention, which tells that asking of help by jubba was only in allegorical sense. But in reality, they were seeking help from Allah. And hidden intention is a thing, which always have to be given preference over literal approach.

Was Salam.

(taken from www.answering-ansar.org , where there is a very long article present on this issue)

taken from this thread http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...=35194&st=0

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(salaam)

^ :)

Intercession (waseelah, shafa'at, etc) is with Allah's permission.

In our daily lives we use mediums such as transformers for our electricity, modems for our internets etc etc.

In the holy Quran, there are many instances like:

1) Yusuf(a) asked one of the released prisoners to put in a good word to the king for his(a) own release.

[12:42] And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.

2) Sulaiman(a) asked one of his subjects to bring the throne of Bilquis:

[27:39] One audacious among the jinn said: I will bring it to you before you rise up from your place; and most surely I am strong (and) trusty for it.

[27:40] One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.

[27:41] He said: Alter her throne for her, we will see whether she follows the right way or is of those who do not go aright.

3) Musa(a) conveyed messages of his people to Allah. And Allah responded to the same through Musa(a):

[2:60] And (recollect also the time) when Moses implored water for his people. We directed: 'Strike that rock with your wand'. Then twelve springs gushed out of that (rock). Indeed, each clan identified their respective drinking place. (We enjoined). 'Eat and drink of the sustenance (provided) by Allah but do not engage in creating turmoil in the land.

Some explanation here:

QUESTION:

One of my friend ask me to ask this question to you brothers:

You know most of the time when Muslims are in trouble or they want to do a

difficult chore they say "Ya Ali Mudad". What is the reason or any religious

thing that we don't know. Can you explain in detail any reason about this.

ANSWER:

This is a very important question again dealt with in the recently published

translation of the Contemporary Fatwas of Ayatullah Seestani (May Allah

Protect him and Preserve him).

The propriety of saying "Ya Ali Madad" depends entirely upon the intention

of the person who says it.

If the help of Hadhrat Ali (A.S.) or any of the other ma'sumeen is sought as

an intercessor and a 'waseelah' envisaged by the Holy Qur'an in Ayah 35 of

Suratul Maidah then not only there can be no objection but it would be the

right and proper thing to do.

But if help is sought in the belief that the person whose help sought shares

with Allah the right to create, sustain and

protect then the call for help might amount to 'shirk'.

The Ayah referred to above reads as follows:

"O you who believe ! Be mindful of your Duty to Allah, and seek a way to

approach him ((wab tagoo ilayhi waseelah).................."

From: Saying "Aalim Network".

And Allah knows best.

Wassalaam

Edited by kipi

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Are ahlulbayt (as) ALL HEARING , ALL SEEING ??

What is 'All-hearing All-seeing' to you? Allah (swt) sees and always saw present, past, future, our intentions, our choices, all possibilites, everything that is and could've been,this was always part of his knowledge.

You have to define what you mean by it, I think the hearing and sight of creation cannot be compared to the eternal attributes of Allah (swt).

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What is 'All-hearing All-seeing' to you? Allah (swt) sees and always saw present, past, future, our intentions, our choices, all possibilites, everything that is and could've been,this was always part of his knowledge.

You have to define what you mean by it, I think the hearing and sight of creation cannot be compared to the eternal attributes of Allah (swt).

by ALL HEARING , ALL SEEING i mean > ARE They (Ahlulbayt (as) ) Hearing and Watching all of us ?

wsalam

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by ALL HEARING , ALL SEEING i mean > ARE They (Ahlulbayt (as) ) Hearing and Watching all of us ?

wsalam

(salam)

If they (as) were watching us all right now, (I am not saying they are or not), it would not be all seeingness like 'All-seeingness' of Allah (Swt) , it should not be defined as 'All hearing All-seeing', when someone compares this to Allah (swT) and says I believe only Allah is all-seeing all-hearing, he himself has commited shirk not the people who believe it is possile that a creature watches with the eyes of the heart all of creation by God's permission.

You also have to understand the sight of the hearts are different then the eyes, and Imam Baqir (as) says you can see countries without being there with the heart in Al-Kafi.

If you don't know about this stuff, just leave it alone, but don't deny things just out of ignorance.

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Are ahlulbayt (as) ALL HEARING , ALL SEEING ??

You call two persons within a certain distance, one is hard of hearing and the other person has a normal hearing, the slightly deaf person will just hardly make out what you said while the other person will hear you clearly. Now push them further back and call them again, the one with impaired hearing wouldn't hear your voice at all but the other person would still be able to hear you.

Get it?

Now Ahlul bayt aren't certainly all hearing and all seeing but Allah has made them his perfect creations. They can hear you when you call them, obviously they won't hear you when you saying random things in your daily life. Now, it is not that all the attributes of Allah are exclusive to him, It is just that he is a perfection of all his attributes but still lets us enjoy some of them. He is all hearing you are not but you can still hear, he is all seeing you are not but you can still see within a certain distance he specified for your eyes.

Ahlul Bayt came to earth to guide us to the right path, they are our teachers and Imams ( this word has a very vast meaning) They can do things thousand times better than we. They can still hear us when we call them, while they are apparently not around us.

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(salam)

If they (as) were currently watching us all right now, (I am not saying they are or not),

(salam) brother,

means you too are not sure that they (as) are watching us or not.

I asked this Question @ Najaf.org.

answer was : Ahlul bayt (as) can hear and watch us if (or When) Allah wills.

Answer led me to conclude that None of us can surely say that " Imam (as) is hearing me right now "....

wsalam.

Edited by coloreal

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(salam)

coloreal, when you say 'Peace be upon You o Nabi...", do you think Nabi Mohammad (pbuh) hears you or not?

(salam) Coloreal

I find it odd that all muslims (with exception of Salafis who follow some sahabas instead of Rasool (pbuh) regardingt this) talk to Mohamad (pbuh) in direct language (with the word you) five times a day yet so many find it so hard to believe if an Imam (as) can hear us.

Edited by Link

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(salam)

coloreal, when you say 'Peace be upon You o Nabi...", do you think Nabi Mohammad (pbuh) hears you or not?

it actually means " may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him"

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coloreal, while there are limitations to ALL of Allah's (SWT) creation, since ONLY Allah (SWT) has no limits, things outside the bounds of what we consider possible are NOT outside the bounds of possible for Allah (SWT). Thus, IF Allah (SWT) allows the Ahlul Bayt (as) to hear the calls of the ppl calling for them, it is ONLY due to Allah (SWT) ALLOWING them to.

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it actually means " may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him"

(salam)

you say 'You', direct talk

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answer was : Ahlul bayt can hear and watch us if (or When) Allah wills.

Yep that was rather ambiguous and slightly confusing. My example still makes more sense. I hope some of you knowledgeable guys will expand on it in a clearer way.

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may be this will help,this is a dialog between bro. akeel abbas and me(:

QUOTE bro. akeel abbas

SALAAM BROTHER...

The topic in which you are currently in,......is very well answered by me...in "Ya Ali Madad"....

Brother I want your feedback on my post, "Ya Ali Madad".....

I am waiting for your feedback...

and

I WOULD LOVE IT IF YOU ASK ME QUESTIONS IN THIS REGARD....

===========================

mehdi soldier:

salam,

brother i just want to know how you answered "the barrier thing" between us and the death.does that prevent them from hearing us?

==================

bro. akeel abbas

Wa alaikum salaam.

FIRST LET ME EXPLAIN YOU WHAT IS THE BASIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH.

When we are living...we have a Bashar as well as a soul and a "NAFS". But when we die, our Bashar is lost, and OUR NAFS dies. BUT OUR SOUL(rooh) LIVES. This ROOH(soul) WAS PRESENT EVEN BEFORE Allah HAD GIVEN US A BASHAR(see 7:172).

But here Brother Kin Han is asking us about the ABILITY OF THE DEAD TO REACH US!!

There is no Barrier between the living and the Dead--in the sense that Allah makes the dead to Hear The Living...sometimes Allah causes the Dead even to see the LIVING....But the Living can hear & see the Dead only in dreams...or if Allah wills otherwise....SO HERE THE BARRIER IS Allah's PERMISSION!!

Considering The Case of Mawlah Ali 's ability to reach us...Let me inform you that Mawlah Ali existed even before the creation of his Bashar on earth....Mawlah Ali was a NOOR as created by Allah even before Adam ....

So Mawlah Ali ...as provided by Allah...as permitted by Allah....does not require any Bashar to be present amongst us...SO THE BARRIER HERE DOES NOT APPLY TO MAWLAH ALI .....How???

If you know science, let me tell you one thing...

Science agrees that we CANNOT SEE LIGHT(noor), BUT LIGHT(noor) MAKES US SEE EVERYTHING.

That is, even though we cannot see light(noor)......we call light(switch on light)....and the light(noor) comes for our HELP....(makes us see)

It is the same concept Brother...The light has been given no BASHAR BY Allah>>>STILL THE LIGHT HELPS US....

That is a person with Bashar helps irrespective of the permission of Allah(because the evil ones also take each other's help).

But a LA_BASHAR(someone without a BASHAR helps but only with Allah's permission).

Light(noor) is a LA_BASHAR thing...hence it requires Allah's permission to help us....

ALI is a NOOR(light) as of today...HENCE he requires Allah's permission to help us...

Mawlah Ali now has no Bashar...But still Mawlah Ali Helps us because he has been given permission by Allah(so the Barrier is broken)....

Where is the permission given to Mawlah Ali ....?????

THE ALI-WALIULLAH RELATION!!!

ALI IS NOT JUST A WALI...BUT A WALIULLAH..That is a WALI AS APPOINTED BY Allah UPON US...as per Ghadeer KHUMM...till date..(as of today)

Verse 5:55 is alone a sufficient proof for the permission of saying Ya Ali Madad even after Mawlah Ali has no Bashar....

Allah tells you today..."Ali is A GUARDIAN(wali) AS APPOINTED BY ME ON YOU".....here in this verse Allah says...Innama Waliyukum"...

So "Waliyukum" means "WALI UPON US"....This is even as of today...

So Ali is The Wali(guardian) APPOINTED BY Allah(so Allah has given permission) UPON US AS OF TODAY ALSO!!!

THE BARRIER BETWEEN THE DEAD AND THE LIVING IS THE PERMISSIBILITY OF Allah...BUT Allah HAS GIVEN THIS PERMISSIBILITY TO MAWLAH ALI ...

SO THE BARRIER IS BROKEN...MAWLAH ALI REACHES US...

ASK ME MORE QUESTIONS....

=====================

mehdi soldier:

salam,

now i understand that the dead can hear us.and the barrier is Allah's permission.but when we call ya ali,its tawassul.but u are saying that when Allah gives permission,its again hadrat ali who give out the help.do u mean to say that when we call ya ali,Allah will send hadrat ali with help?so the help is not directly from Allah but Allah just have a strong man that he has given power and anytime we call ya ali ,Allah wil say ali give a lendin hand to this person or dont answer him.

or do you mean that the help is directly from Allah.so any time someone call ya ali,God will accept that person plea and either send imam ali with help or solve the persons problem directly.

or could it be both ways?

=======================

bro. akeel abbas:

Wa alaikum salaam Brother

Good question...

What happenned at Khyber....????

After all, we have learnt saying "Ya Ali Madad" from there only...

So let us analyse the incident of Khyber.

Mawlah Ali was not present there with the Holt Prophet. But when the Prophet called Ali ...The Prophet called Ali directly, (while there are some hadiths that I have heard in lectures that first The Holy Prophet had called Allah for help, but Allah commanded the Prophet to seek Ali 's help), and we all know that after The Prophet decided that he will give the ALAM to Ali , The Prophet did not send any messenger to Ali to call Ali , but The Prophet called Ali directly. We all know that Mawlah Ali did not take days as the army of the Prophet, to reach Khyber, ALI reached Khyber within moments.

Now let us see some Background points here:

--Mawlah Ali was not haazir-Naazir.

--Still Mawlah Ali reached Khyber within moments.

--Because Mawlah Ali is of NOOR.

YOUR QUESTION:

When we say "Ya Ali Madad:

1)Is it that Mawlah Ali helps directly(after permission from Allah)??, or

2)Is it that Allah helps directly even when Mawlah Ali is called??

3)Is it that Both the above is possible??

When Mawlah Ali is called Mawlah Ali comes for help.

When Allah is called, Allah comes for help.

It is against LOGIC that you are calling Mawlah Ali , and still Allah is helping.

The concept of tawassul, is seeking blessings, is seeking forgiveness, is seeking some SPIRITUAL BENEFITS, and this way of asking help is different that what The Holy Prophet did in Khyber. This way of asking help is given to us by AhlulBayt in Dua-e-Tawassul, for SPIRITUAL benefits or for forgiveness. YES, IN THESE CASES, IT IS Allah WHO HELPS US...

BUT IN CASES LIKE PHYSICAL HELP, WHERE YOU CALL MAWLAH ALI DIRECTLY, MAWLAH ALI WILL DIRECTLY COME FOR HELP, AND THIS IS NOT AGAINST TAUHEED, OR AGAINST SCIENCE, as proved throughout(if you want this evidence I can provide you)...

So if you call someone, that someone himself will arrive, provided that Allah has given that person permission.

While Tawassul is the case in which we do not directly call a person, but rather we start asking by way of tawassul as follows: (Dua-e-Tawassul)---

"O Allah, I beseech Thee, and turn towards Thee, through Thy Prophet, the Prophet of Mercy, Muhammad, may Allah Bless him and his Progeny, and grant them peace. O Abul-Qasim, O Messenger of Allah O guide of mercy, O intercessor of the community, O our chief, O our master, We turn towards thee, seek thy intercession and advocacy before Allah, we put before you our open need..."

ASK MORE....if you have

ALLAHHAFIZ...MAY Allah GIVE YOU MORE KNOWLEDGE....(and me too)

========================

mehdi soldier:

bro. you said that it is not against tawheed that even though imam ali is not physically alive,when we call him,its not Allah that offers the help but he(imam ali) comes to rescue.so if we are to tell a wahhabi that its not against tawheed,should say becauese its Allah that has given our imam this ability?what if we ask Allah directly and Allah send imam ali in return?then what the difference betwwen asking Allah and askin imam ali?

==============================

bro. akeel abbas:

WA ALAIKUM SALAAM

I REALLY MUST SAY..BROTHER...YOU REALLY ASK GOOD QUESTIONS..THATS THE WAY AND IT SHOWS HOW DEEPLY YOU STUDY...KEEPT IT UP...

Again I say...When you Call Allah, Allah helps you. (Allah always helps through a waseela, wether it be living, or non-living, or by any thing, by creating a situation, HE HAS THE POWER OVER ALL THINGS)

When you call Mawlah Ali , Mawlah Ali Helps you.

Now, ask this question to yourself, and each wahhabi must ask this question to himself!!

IS HE A GOOD SLAVE OF Allah, ENOUGH , THAT Allah HELPS HIM WHEN HE CALLS Allah FOR HELP ???

NO, WE ARE NOT GOOD SLAVES OF Allah.

MAWLAH ALI IS A GOOD SLAVE OF Allah, SO WHEN WE CALL HIM FOR HELP, HE COMES TO OUR RESCUE(but for that also we should have a good relation with Mawlah Ali [as]).

===============================

QUOTE

mehdi soldier:

bro. you said that it is not against tawheed that even though imam ali is not physically alive,when we call him,its not Allah that offers the help but he(imam ali) comes to rescue.

It is not against Tawheed when you call Mawlah Ali during his life or after his death. (because Allah has Himself urged the believers to help each other, and has appointed The Prophet(saww) and Mawlah Ali as our Guardian upon us(see 5:55).

It is a very simple fact that Tawheed is disturbed only when you consider any creation as being equal to Allah or being independent of the power of Allah!!

Coming to your wahhabi thing,

QUOTE

so if we are to tell a wahhabi that its not against tawheed,should say becauese its Allah that has given our imam this ability?

Brother the question of tawheed only comes when we consider any creation of Allah as equal to Allah, or independent of the power of Allah.

We call Mawlah Ali now, after his death, believing that Allah has given Mawlah Ali permission to help good shiahs, and That Allah has appointed Mawlah Ali upon us as our guardian(see 5:55)....

QUOTE

what if we ask Allah directly and Allah send imam ali in return?then what the difference betwwen asking Allah and askin imam ali?

So I believe that you have now understood what is the difference between we calling Allah and we calling Mawlah Ali .

Mawlah Ali used to call Allah for help!

Why ???????

Because Mawlah Ali was a good slave of Allah!

We are not good slaves of Allah.

But since Mawlah Ali has been appointed by Allah upon us as our guardian, we call Mawlah Ali for our help!!

We call Mawlah Ali because...

(1) We are not good slaves of Allah

So if someone is not a good slave of Allah, does this mean that he will not be helped ????(we all committ sins, and unknowingly/knowingly displease Allah somehow)

Allah is just!!! He has appointed Imams for our help, and has urged us to take their help(help from believers also)

so...

(2) We take the help of Mawlah Ali because he has been appointed by Allah upon us as our guardian(see 5:55)

QUOTE

then what the difference betwwen asking Allah and askin imam ali?

The difference is your INTENTION!! if you believe that you are good enough that Allah will help you, then you can certainly ask Allah for help, and if you believe that you are not good enough that Allah will help you, then Call Mawlah Ali ....

EXAMPLE

--Both of us are standing at a distance from each other.

--There is a table beside each of us.

--There is something kept on each of our tables respectively.(both those things are different)

--Both of us want the thing kept on the other's table( I want the thing kept on your table and you want the thing kept on my table)

--So

- IF YOU BELIEVE THAT Allah CAN HELP YOU BETTER THAN I CAN, SO ASK Allah TO BRING THAT THING KEPT ON MY TABLE FOR YOU.

- IF YOU BELIEVE THAT IT IS LOGICALLY CORRECT AND SENSIBLE THAT YOU ASK ME THAT I PASS YOU THE THING KEPT ON MY TABLE, THEN CALL ME.

--SAME THING APPLIES TO ME ALSO.

NOW,

TELL ME IF YOU CALLED ME FOR HELP HERE, HOW IS IT THAT YOU WILL BE DOING SHIRK ??(only if you think me to be equal to Allah or being independent of the power of Allah)

So here I can be a better help to you. You are not a Prophet or an Imam, that if you pray to Allah, that thing will fly to you, and you will get that thing. Here you are not a prophet or an Imam. So you will have to ask me to give that Thing for you.

Get it ???

Ask me more.....may Allah give you more Knowledge...(and me too)...

Allahhafiz

Edited by mehdi soldier

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(salaam)

^ :)

Intercession (waseelah, shafa'at, etc) is with Allah's permission.

In our daily lives we use mediums such as transformers for our electricity, modems for our internets etc etc.

In the holy Quran, there are many instances like:

1) Yusuf(a) asked one of the released prisoners to put in a good word to the king for his(a) own release.

[12:42] And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.

2) Sulaiman(a) asked one of his subjects to bring the throne of Bilquis:

[27:39] One audacious among the jinn said: I will bring it to you before you rise up from your place; and most surely I am strong (and) trusty for it.

[27:40] One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.

[27:41] He said: Alter her throne for her, we will see whether she follows the right way or is of those who do not go aright.

3) Musa(a) conveyed messages of his people to Allah. And Allah responded to the same through Musa(a):

[2:60] And (recollect also the time) when Moses implored water for his people. We directed: 'Strike that rock with your wand'. Then twelve springs gushed out of that (rock). Indeed, each clan identified their respective drinking place. (We enjoined). 'Eat and drink of the sustenance (provided) by Allah but do not engage in creating turmoil in the land.

Some explanation here:

From: Saying "Aalim Network".

And Allah knows best.

Wassalaam

All of those examples are where the person is alive and capable of helping. How can a dead person hear all that we say, and act upon it? Even if they are killed in the way of Allah, they are with Allah and being sustained with Allah. There is no mention of them being able to hear and act. Allah is the all hearing, that is an attribute to Allah.

It implies attributes that only Allah has. Why not just be happy with the safe Ya Allah?

As for the Prophets SAW clothes having special powers, i find that difficult to beleive. I believe that people would then value these items to a degree which would make them idols, when islam is all about making sure your deeds are purely for Allah.

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