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forgeforth

Dialogue on Unity

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Salaams.

Over many many years, even decades, I have become fed up and frustated by the

divisions of those who claim to be muslims, and yet they are always bitter enemies.

I'd like to ask both the Sunni and the Shia, that are'nt you brethren of eachother, who believe in One God,

the revelation (Qur'an), the final Prophet (sawa), the Angels, the Judgement day, the Ahkam, etc.

Oh Shia, If Imam Ali (as) could work with the first 3 caliphs despite differences, why cant we?

Oh Sunni, If you love the Ahlul-Bayt (as), why cant you work with followers of Ahlul-Bayt (as)?

I think that over many years of contemplation-

I believe I have finally found the reason why we fail to live like brothers.

The reason why Shaytaan is able to sow the seeds of discord amongst us is-

We IGNORE what we have in common. We fail to cement our commonality.

We dump that which is most important between us, and we pick the least relevant items.

In summation, we forget what makes us muslim,

but only focus on what (we perceive) that makes us Shia, Sunni, etc.

Oh Muslims ! What has come unto you ?!

The Qur'an says to the Jews and Christians-

Lets come to an accord between those of us who agree - To worship the One God.

Let us be brethren / partners in the belief and worship of the One God.

Oh Muslims ! The Qur'an is ready to make brethren amongst all monotheists.

Now, the christians and jews are mushrik (believing in sons of God)...

But you all believe in One God, and worship One God !

This should be 99% of your focus, and enough for you to sacrifice your lives for each other!

Wake Up oh nation of Islam ! You seem to have forgotten God-

And only focus on smaller petty things. Nothing is greater than God.

Build your unity on belief in Him, worship of Him, acceptance of His Word (Qur'an),

and deliverance of His word by His most faithful and entrusted Messenger Muhammad (sawa).

________________________

I will not write more on this post, since its already long.

But please ponder.

W/s.

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(salam) It's a very good topic, and indeed one we, as Muslims, should ponder, no matter what sect or madhab we belong to. it's true we have FAR more in common than we have in difference, but the differences all too often get the focus, add into that the misinformation and misconceptions we hold about each other, and it is easy to let our emotions take over. But in the end, we worship the same God (SWT), we read the same book, and follow the same Prophet (pbuh).

Jazakallah br. for starting this thread.

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Salaams.

Over many many years, even decades, I have become fed up and frustated by the

divisions of those who claim to be muslims, and yet they are always bitter enemies.

I'd like to ask both the Sunni and the Shia, that are'nt you brethren of eachother, who believe in One God,

the revelation (Qur'an), the final Prophet (sawa), the Angels, the Judgement day, the Ahkam, etc.

Oh Shia, If Imam Ali (as) could work with the first 3 caliphs despite differences, why cant we?

Oh Sunni, If you love the Ahlul-Bayt (as), why cant you work with followers of Ahlul-Bayt (as)?

I think that over many years of contemplation-

I believe I have finally found the reason why we fail to live like brothers.

The reason why Shaytaan is able to sow the seeds of discord amongst us is-

We IGNORE what we have in common. We fail to cement our commonality.

We dump that which is most important between us, and we pick the least relevant items.

In summation, we forget what makes us muslim,

but only focus on what (we perceive) that makes us Shia, Sunni, etc.

Oh Muslims ! What has come unto you ?!

The Qur'an says to the Jews and Christians-

Lets come to an accord between those of us who agree - To worship the One God.

Let us be brethren / partners in the belief and worship of the One God.

Oh Muslims ! The Qur'an is ready to make brethren amongst all monotheists.

Now, the christians and jews are mushrik (believing in sons of God)...

But you all believe in One God, and worship One God !

This should be 99% of your focus, and enough for you to sacrifice your lives for each other!

Wake Up oh nation of Islam ! You seem to have forgotten God-

And only focus on smaller petty things. Nothing is greater than God.

Build your unity on belief in Him, worship of Him, acceptance of His Word (Qur'an),

and deliverance of His word by His most faithful and entrusted Messenger Muhammad (sawa).

________________________

I will not write more on this post, since its already long.

But please ponder.

W/s.

As Salam Alykom,

I thank you for posting and bumping this topic.

Although I think there is a big difference between a Sunni and a Shia, I still respect Shia people and not the hawza people, because they like the Prophet, peace be upon him. At the same time Allah says in his book that there is a common word between Muslims and the people of the book and to treat them well. So I refuse to mistreat a person who believes that Mohammed is the messenger of Allah and love him and his offsrpings.

However, sometimes I see that Shia contradict ahl Al Bayt , when among them are people who believe that they are being good Muslims by attacking the Prophet companions.

I see it contradicting because Ahl Al Bayt were peaceful with Prophet companions as much as the companions were (with a bit of exception of Muwiyah). I see that contradicting for many reasons and here are a few :

1- Ali may Allah be pleased with him did not fight for his Imamah.

2- Al Hasan may Allah be pleased with him pledged Muwiyah.

Those are the biggest Imams and kings of Imamah, so why being more king than the king and attack the Prophet companions ?

Ahl Al Bayt, did not ask you to attack Sunnis and their figures. But I think when a person do not believe that Ahl Al Bayt and the companions were united, then he would never achieve the unity of Muslims, unless that person respect his sunni brother like he respect the non muslims or a bit more if he believed in Islamic brotherhood.

I also found that Sunnis love Ahl Al Bayt, and I've been tought to love them since I was young. But, Im sorry to say this , I don't hide my belief, that I found that Islam achieved a lot when Abu Bakr and Omar ruled may Allah be pleased with them. But that does not mean that Ali may Allah be pleased with him was a bad companion for he struggled for Islam before and after the Prophet death with his wisdom and sword.

I think if Shia respect Omar and Abu Bakr, it would be better. If you believe in the stories your aluma invented, then keep your hatred but do not mistreat figures that are very well respected to others. You treat non muslims well so why do you not treat the people with common belief well ? You(shias n sunnis) respect people of different races and beliefs, like Ronaldo, Frued the Jew, and the people you work with in westren countries, so why not respect the other sects of your belief ?

In summary, I believe that we can achieve unity in this forum if:

1- We respect each other greatest figures.

2- Believe that the other sect could be in a point or another. And not because that person is following the wrong math'hab then he is totally wrong, and that your better than him in everything. Search for the truth and not who is right.

3- Remove words like wahabi, rafethi, nasibi.

Was Salam Alykom

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(bismillah)

(salam)

It is indeed a great post. We are being seperated by the third force shich obviously not muslims and dont like to see muslims unity. Like whats happening n Iraq. When ever they try to unite, that third force inject the fitna of relegion/aqaid.

uglylion:

You said that the post is good and meanwhile you start attacking on Shia. I think you did not reach to the level of the post or you want to create again an endless accusing conversation between two sects. A muslim is one who believe in Oneness of Allah and that Prophet Muhaamad is Allah's last prophet. So where is this thing written in Quran that to be a Muslim u should love Prophet companions as well.

It is certain from Quran that Munafqeen were there even during Muhammad (pbuh) era. If all the muslims were true companion of Prophet there was no need of Sura Munafeqoon (if u heared this surah before).

But I dont want to deviate from the topic. These are just little points in ur post reply.

I do agree that who ever recite the Kalima and believ in Quran must be treeted as muslim.

waslam

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(salam)

I liked a statement of one of my sunni friends that "you should deal with other people on the basis of akhlaq not their religious orientation".

Ahlulsunna are our brothers and we have a lots of commonalities in beliefs. And I don't see why would someone be against the concept of unity when it is reiterated in quran time and again. Those who incite differences do this for either political purposes or some personal benefits, otherwise quran is quite clear about this issue.

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Salaams & Thanks all for your replies so far.

I'd like to add the below to my original post:

Many Sunnis often will not accept Shia unless and until Shia love all companions.

Many Shia often will not accept Sunnis unless they consider the Imams Infallible and the Leaders above the Caliphs.

(i.e some sunnis not accepting shia until they become sunni and some shia not accepting sunni until they become shia)

Now then- Here is my point: Ignore these differences

Because: What you differ in, is much lower than what you agree in.

Until we accept that what we agree in is much higher, we cannot move forward.

And what we agree in is:

The Belief in One God, Allah (swt), as The Master, The Rabb, The Creator.

All people who believe in the oneness of God, especially Muslims, are One Big Family.

Secondly, We are all firstly Muslim. Declared and Accepted "Submitters" (Muslims) to Allah (swt).

If we can agree on the One God, Worship of the One God, Accepting Qur'an as His Word,

Believing in the Messenger and the importance of following his sunnah, including the main:

Salah, Zakah, Fasting, Hajj, etc.

Believing in all the prophets before Muhammad (sawa), and the angels, and the old books.

Believing in the revelation to Muhammad and following it. And knowing that the main point:

(of revelation) Was to guide us to recognize and Worship One God, and follow His Command...

Then that is it.. - Thats makes us all one big Family !

We need to understand the importance of these common factors,

because they override and dominate over ALL the differences.

This is what we need to do- Give those overriding factors, the Importance they deserve !

Again, The Qur'an invites Christians and Jews to be one big family with us, IF,

only IF they accept the unity and worship of One God.

Which means that for muslims, who already do that, we should automatically be One.

So give God and the overriding factors the higher importance, Inshallah.

Was-salaam.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

It is indeed a great post. We are being seperated by the third force shich obviously not muslims and dont like to see muslims unity. Like whats happening n Iraq. When ever they try to unite, that third force inject the fitna of relegion/aqaid.

uglylion:

You said that the post is good and meanwhile you start attacking on Shia. I think you did not reach to the level of the post or you want to create again an endless accusing conversation between two sects. A muslim is one who believe in Oneness of Allah and that Prophet Muhaamad is Allah's last prophet. So where is this thing written in Quran that to be a Muslim u should love Prophet companions as well.

It is certain from Quran that Munafqeen were there even during Muhammad (pbuh) era. If all the muslims were true companion of Prophet there was no need of Sura Munafeqoon (if u heared this surah before).

But I dont want to deviate from the topic. These are just little points in ur post reply.

I do agree that who ever recite the Kalima and believ in Quran must be treeted as muslim.

waslam

As Salam Alykom,

I am not the brother who sent that post of peace and wisdom, I am his listener and replier, therefore, I discuss my point of view so that my Shia brothers, (especially him) understand why there is mistreatmeant between the sects.

You said:

A muslim is one who believe in Oneness of Allah and that Prophet Muhaamad is Allah's last prophet. So where is this thing written in Quran that to be a Muslim u should love Prophet companions as well.

--Yes I agree, with you IF the Oneness of Allah is practised only for Allah subhanah wa ta'ala.

Was Salam Alykom

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uglylion just stop trying to focus on our differences as a whole, we all take shahadaa and this is the main point that unifies us PERIOD akh this is our problem, we all know what seperates us, why do we need to constantly remind eachother? this is so unproductive, and a waste of time, these debates are being repeated over and over and over........... lets stop chasing the past and lets move forward please

what we have to do as Muslims is take personal responsibility and make friends with sunnis if we are shia and vice versa, and Im sure there are a lot of muslims on here who have friends from other sects of Islam, this is how we will achieve unity in islam, we must ignore the mistakes made by the muslims before us and focus on whats more important, what we agree on, I have more friends who are sunni than shia this is beautiful to me because we are able to respect our differences and come together as brothers our differences aren't even an issue because we all know what we believe and we respect those beliefes there is no need to go in that direction......... it starts with our generation lets ignore the past and look to the future if we really want to see change, we can talk and type all we want, the change will come in our everyday actions inshallah

Edited by abdullah218

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uglylion just stop trying to focus on our differences as a whole, we all take shahadaa and this is the main point that unifies us PERIOD akh this is our problem, we all know what seperates us, why do we need to constantly remind eachother? this is so unproductive, and a waste of time, these debates are being repeated over and over and over........... lets stop chasing the past and lets move forward please

what we have to do as Muslims is take personal responsibility and make friends with sunnis if we are shia and vice versa, and Im sure there are a lot of muslims on here who have friends from other sects of Islam, this is how we will achieve unity in islam, we must ignore the mistakes made by the muslims before us and focus on whats more important, what we agree on, I have more friends who are sunni than shia this is beautiful to me because we are able to respect our differences and come together as brothers our differences aren't even an issue because we all know what we believe and we respect those beliefes there is no need to go in that direction......... it starts with our generation lets ignore the past and look to the future if we really want to see change, we can talk and type all we want, the change will come in our everyday actions inshallah

In sha' Allah.

what we have to do as Muslims is take personal responsibility and make friends with sunnis if we are shia and vice versa.

In Sha' Allah make brothers with sunnis and vice versa and not brothers.

Was Salam Alyk,

may Allah be please with you...

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are you kidding me?

If you knew him, you wouldn't be asking this question. He is in dead earnest.

Me too, for that matter. What is your case for unity with the followers of those who rebelled against Allah?

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If you knew him, you wouldn't be asking this question. He is in dead earnest.

Me too, for that matter. What is your case for unity with the followers of those who rebelled against Allah?

(salam)

I hope that everyone is not like you.

...

@abdullah218

I think that it is with people as you that we can find the way traced by Amir Al-Mumineen (as) which supported the unit of the Moslems during the kalifat of the three first .

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(salam)

Personally, to me, Unity with others (non-shia but still Muslim) means never having to talk about your belief. I found very few people (among Muslims) that are open-minded and are willing to listen to the other side. But on public forum/buletin board, the environment are free and there is a potential for discussion.

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(salam)

I hope that everyone is not like you.

...

@abdullah218

I think that it is with people as you that we can find the way traced by Amir Al-Mumineen (as) which supported the unit of the Moslems during the kalifat of the three first .

Try to express yourself in simple terms. Complex concepts tie you in knots around yourself

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If you knew him, you wouldn't be asking this question. He is in dead earnest.

Me too, for that matter. What is your case for unity with the followers of those who rebelled against Allah?

I dont think the sunnis consider themselves the followers of the khulafa.

They love the khulafa as companions, but they follow Muhammad (sawa).

So it is really unity with the other group of people who also follow Muhammad (sawa).

It is the "followership of Muhammad" which is the important part that we need to concentrate on.

Was-salaam.

Unity is always for something, and concuurently against something.

What is your case? unity against what? For what?

Unity for the sake of Allah (swt). For the sake of uniting in believing and worshipping the One God.

Unity against the concept and worship of multiple gods and deities.

Also, Unity for following the Command of God, and honoring the rights of both Allah (swt) and His Ibaad.

Unity against injustice, intolerance, evil, human rights violations, etc.

Was-salaam.

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Try to express yourself in simple terms. Complex concepts tie you in knots around yourself

(salam)

until now, I was polished with you. it is not a favour, but it is my duty of Moslem towards my brothers and sisters of religion.

thus do not disappoint me. ;)

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(salam)

Personally, to me, Unity with others (non-shia but still Muslim) means never having to talk about your belief. I found very few people (among Muslims) that are open-minded and are willing to listen to the other side. But on public forum/buletin board, the environment are free and there is a potential for discussion.

It starts with oneself. We all need to teach it to ourselves, then it will be easier for everyone.

For example, I need to be a good listener, fair, balanced, unbiased, and acedemic,

If I expect to be listened to, and in a fair, balanced, unbiased and academic way.

Typically most shia and sunni who talk, like to impose, and not be balanced.

They do not like to listen, nor to be fair.

Yet if they are both fair, balanced and good listeners...

They'll reach the same conclusion on most items as pertains to religion.

Secondly, we need to focus on religion, and not discussing persons, especially as in history.

It is more prudent, important and relevant to discuss what matter, i.e. Religion, not people.

Was-salaam.

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I dont think the sunnis consider themselves the followers of the khulafa.

They love the khulafa as companions, but they follow Muhammad (sawa).

So it is really unity with the other group of people who also follow Muhammad (sawa).

It is the "followership of Muhammad" which is the important part that we need to concentrate on.

Was-salaam.

Unity for the sake of Allah (swt). For the sake of uniting in believing and worshipping the One God.

Unity against the concept and worship of multiple gods and deities.

Also, Unity for following the Command of God, and honoring the rights of both Allah (swt) and His Ibaad.

Unity against injustice, intolerance, evil, human rights violations, etc.

Was-salaam.

Thanks forgeforth, for this topic and everything,

Allah witnesses that I love you for Him.

Was Salam Alyk

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Secondly, we need to focus on religion, and not discussing persons, especially as in history.

It is more prudent, important and relevant to discuss what matter, i.e. Religion, not people.

You tell us: How should we do it?

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Thanks forgeforth, for this topic and everything,

Allah witnesses that I love you for Him.

Was Salam Alyk

Thanks brother for your remarks.

And you are my brother, just as I am yours.

Brothers in Faith and Submission to Allah (swt). Always Inshallah. W/s.

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You tell us: How should we do it?

Salaam Sr. SpIzo.

Personally I believe that there are pre-requisites to this being accomplished.

Those Sunni and Shia who can attain those pre-reqs, can be very strong bonded.

The Pre-reqs entain each side to abandon two things:

(1) To abandon any Misconceptions, Misinformation, Rumours, and Lies about the other side.

(2) To abandon all extremisms, anti-islamic culturalism, etc. that has crept into one's own creed.

(Once any two Shia and Sunni can do this,

they might even end up closer than the average two shia or two sunni)

Was-salaam.

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subhanallah u dont know how glad Iam u brought this up .... its a shame these topics are rare. Inshallah keep praying. Unity is not a compromise of belief ppl ...but of friendly dialogue on differences and togetherness on similarities. As muslims we are required to do this even with the alhlulkitab and neither of them believe in khilafa or Imamah yet their way is still open towards truth, so who are we to pass judgment...

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(salam)

I hope that everyone is not like you.

...

Yeah. THat's all very well. JUst look up what the Book has to say for the majority . . .

(salam)

until now, I was polished with you. it is not a favour, but it is my duty of Moslem towards my brothers and sisters of religion.

thus do not disappoint me. ;)

Now that tops it all. :D

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subhanallah u dont know how glad Iam u brought this up .... its a shame these topics are rare. Inshallah keep praying. Unity is not a compromise of belief ppl ...but of friendly dialogue on differences and togetherness on similarities. As muslims we are required to do this even with the alhlulkitab and neither of them believe in khilafa or Imamah yet their way is still open towards truth, so who are we to pass judgment...

In sha' Allah

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I dont think the sunnis consider themselves the followers of the khulafa.

They love the khulafa as companions, but they follow Muhammad (sawa).

So it is really unity with the other group of people who also follow Muhammad (sawa).

It is the "followership of Muhammad" which is the important part that we need to concentrate on.

Was-salaam.

Unity for the sake of Allah (swt). For the sake of uniting in believing and worshipping the One God.

Unity against the concept and worship of multiple gods and deities.

Also, Unity for following the Command of God, and honoring the rights of both Allah (swt) and His Ibaad.

Unity against injustice, intolerance, evil, human rights violations, etc.

Was-salaam.

No, I for one, am not under the impression that the non-Shia claimants to Islam are the followers of the Khulafa.

I am quite clear that their belief is flawed. I am also aware that the flaw can originate from either of two causes.

It can be through lack of exposure to proper Islamic d'awaa . . . which is the Shia d'awaa.

It can also be due to downright hypocrisy, knowing what IS the truth and attempting to wriggle away from it via various rationalizations.

Most people see the Shia-non-Shia schism as dating from Thaqeefeh bani S'aadeh at the time of Rasool Allah's (pbuh) departure from this temporal abode.

I see its origins far earlier than that. I see the manifest as the product of an unadulterated hypocrisy on the part of many farsighted Meccans who accompanied Rasool Allah (pbuh) on His Hijrah from Mecca to Yathrib, having guaged which way the wind would blow.

Look down a few decades after Hijrah and the matter becomes quite naked and transparent, when we Yazeed 'alaa l'aan saying, after Karbala, how happy would those ancestors of his who were slain at Badr etc would be, and that the Banu Hashim had staged a drama to garner worldly rule.

The one's who suffer from lack of exposure. it is every Shia's duty to bring to their knowledge what Islam is.

The one's who are hypocrites . . . folks such Osama bin Laden and Mullah Umar and others of their ilk . . . as well their ideological fountainheads, folks such asMohammad Ibnal Wahhab, Jamal al Deen Afghani, 'Hassan al Banaa, Syed Qutb and Syed Maududi . . . I, at least, am quite clear what my duty towards them is.

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"Unity" between Sunni and most "shias" is immposible, if "shias" and Sunnis can live together that is good enough..

Yes. My Mawla has said, very clearly, "People are either your brothers in faith or your peers in humanity." [Approximate translation]. There is absolutely no ishkaal in peaceful co-existence based upon mutual respect of the other's human rights . . .

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Forgeforth

"The Qur'an says to the Jews and Christians-

Lets come to an accord between those of us who agree - To worship the One God.

Let us be brethren / partners in the belief and worship of the One God."

Doesn't that say all that's needed to live as we should?

Peace

Satyaban

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(salam)

(Once any two Shia and Sunni can do this,

they might even end up closer than the average two shia or two sunni)

I hope I never have to hear of a Shi3ah holding a Sunni closer to her/himself than her/his own brethren-in-faith, whatever the differences between this Shi3ah and others in imaan. Where are the teachings of Ahl al Bayt (as) going to?

To maintain a peaceful co-existence and live in harmony is one thing, to unify is another. Unity- a term much exaggerated and abused.

Wa'Salam

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Salaam Sr. SpIzo.

Personally I believe that there are pre-requisites to this being accomplished.

Those Sunni and Shia who can attain those pre-reqs, can be very strong bonded.

The Pre-reqs entain each side to abandon two things:

(1) To abandon any Misconceptions, Misinformation, Rumours, and Lies about the other side.

(2) To abandon all extremisms, anti-islamic culturalism, etc. that has crept into one's own creed.

(Once any two Shia and Sunni can do this,

they might even end up closer than the average two shia or two sunni)

Was-salaam.

Walaikum Salam bro forgeforth,

And what exactly will we attain by this unity?

I don't mean to get into misconceptions, misinformation, rumours and lies and so on because I know it's no use talking to you about it.

(salam)

I hope I never have to hear of a Shi3ah holding a Sunni closer to her/himself than her/his own brethren-in-faith, whatever the differences between this Shi3ah and others in imaan. Where are the teachings of Ahl al Bayt (as) going to?

To maintain a peaceful co-existence and live in harmony is one thing, to unify is another. Unity- a term much exaggerated and abused.

Wa'Salam

Exactly.

Edited by SpIzo

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