Cursing the Three..

[Rawshni 9]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Ãóáóãú ÊóÑó Åöáóì ÇáøóÐöíäó íõÒóßøõæäó ÃóäÝõÓóåõãú Èóáö Çááøåõ íõÒóßøöí ãóä íóÔóÇÁ æóáÇó íõÙúáóãõæäó ÝóÊöíáÇð

004.049

SHAKIR: Have you not considered those who attribute purity to themselves? Nay, Allah purifies whom He pleases; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.

ÇäÙõÑú ßóíÝó íóÝúÊóÑõæäó Úóáóì Çááøåö ÇáßóÐöÈó æóßóÝóì Èöåö ÅöËúãðÇ ãøõÈöíäðÇ

004.050

SHAKIR: See how they forge the lie against Allah, and this is sufficient as a manifest sin.

ÃõæúáóÜÆößó ÇáøóÐöíäó áóÚóäóåõãõ Çááøåõ æóãóä íóáúÚóäö Çááøåõ Ýóáóä ÊóÌöÏó áóåõ äóÕöíÑðÇ

004.052

.

SHAKIR: Those are they whom Allah has cursed, and whomever Allah curses you shall not find any helper for him.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Rawshni

[Changed 1]

Ah Mazher...wasn't it you who wrote this some time back and still was giving other people lessons about "real Islam"? You wrote this:

salam to imam abu bakar 1st unquestionable caliph

salam to imam umar 2nd unquestionable caliph

salam to imam usman 3rd unquestionable caliph

salam to imam ali 4th unqestionable caliph

It's wonderful to see that you have changed...

Thats the way you hear them in Sunni mosque in Jum'a kutba ( friday sermon). I understood what you intend to makeup. Have you ever heard a Shia orator using title of Amir in front of Mauwia ( tabarra), I've heard this, Yeah its true, I heard it during a Muharram Majlis, it seemed that the person was a Wahhabbi but he was a Shia.

And yes, I've always hated Yazid and co. It would be more wonderful to see you changed in future.

My point, first, second and third Caliphs are tens and thousands time better than you.

If a person declares intense love for Imam Ali (as) and deny his mission, deny the Qur'an, deny the day of judgement, think evil of Muslims, call Islam as useless and fake then all his so called love is a great showbiz.

Here is my reply:

[Qur'an: 2]

[13] And when it is said to them: Believe as the people believe they say: Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.

[14] And when they meet those who believe, they say: We believe; and when they are alone with their Evils, they say: Surely we are with you, we were only mocking.

[15] Allah shall pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on.

[16] These are they who buy error for the right direction, so their bargain shall bring no gain, nor are they the followers of the right direction.

[17] Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.

[18] Deaf, dumb and blind, so they will not return.

[fzilla 0]

Yeah! pious men who were both wrong and right at the same time.

Loving the companions is not a part of aqeedah neither it is there in the Qur'an that it is obligatory to love the Prophet (s)'s companions "so much" that it becomes incumbent on you all to call us kafirs or "Rafedis" [surprisingly loving the Prophet (s)'s kinsfolk is very much mentioned in the Qur'an and obligatory upon all the Muslims].

im not here to discuss the characters of the Sahaba with you or anyone on this site. been there and done that. used to be a regular on the shia sunni section on this forum. you guys can believe anything u want about the sahaba (ra) from how evil power hungry they were to thier sexual orientation or if they were alcoholics....honestly at this point i dont know how much lower some shias can go but after the stuff ive seen on this forum i wouldnt be surprised.

believing in the Sahaba is not part of the religion but we obviously hold the Sahaba very high, esp the 3 the shias hate, and hold them to be part of the ayat Allah swt revealed for those under the tree. and dont tell us about loving the Prophet's family as we do, we remember them in our prayers daily and to us the family is much bigger than the select family shias hold high. again im not here to discuss who is in or not in but just because we dont believe in the 12 imam theory doesnt mean sunnis dont believe in, love , or praise the family. and anyway a lot of the ahlul bayt and sahaba overlap and the term sahaba is all inclusive and covers the Prophet's (pbuh) family.

i have never ever called shias kafir and while some sunnis do, majority dont even if they hold shias to be deviated from the right path. and doesnt rafidi mean rejector? and do u not reject the first 3 caliphs and sahaba overall?

anyway im not here to argue any of this...just clearing some points about what Sunnis believe, and to make it clear that even the more misinformed and biased sunni knows this much that the shia curse and hate the Sahaba.

Edited June 23, 2006 by fzilla

[Dhulfiqar 34]

i have never ever called shias kafir and while some sunnis do, majority dont even if they hold shias to be deviated from the right path. and doesnt rafidi mean rejector? and do u not reject the first 3 caliphs and sahaba overall?

Incorrect. The righteous companions are extremely loved by the Shi'a.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

[Link 4]

Incorrect. The righteous companions are extremely loved by the Shi'a.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

(salam)

exactly, one just needs to read the 4th du'a of Saheefa Sajadiya to see this

Edited June 23, 2006 by Link

[muhibb-ali 742]

salams

Mashallah Br. because i must i can.

Very well said.

Wassalam

[fzilla 0]

Incorrect. The righteous companions are extremely loved by the Shi'a.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

then i would at least hope to see them sometimes mentioned and discussed....cause last i remember it numbered to 7? and those only cause they either served under Hazrat Ali or sided with him.

Salam alykum

We believe that the so-called Sahaba are not infallible. That is, they can err. Given the latter, and the narrations in the SUNNI books that state that Umar was not as straight as everyone thought, and that Khalid ibin Al-waleed was a fornicator (Zani) and and and..., we conclude that some of the Sahabah deserve to be cursed day and night.

Yes. The shias can go low. However, they can never sink as low as your caliphs, may Allah curse them, including the first, the second and the third.

We also believe that the first, second and third (may Allah curse them) are among Allah's ayat. Just like Satan, the Pharaoh, and all other degenerates through out history, were Allah's ayat.

Oh yes. Sunnis, like shia, believe in the 12 imam theory. Their only problem is that their 12 imams are either homosexuals, or drunkards, or killers, or fornicators, or without "fathers" . So, over the course of time, they had to come up with a lot of BS to feed their followers so that their followers, like yourself, will praise a fornicator, or a killer, or a homosexual.

Did you know that the term Sahaba also includes the Satan of the prophet? There is a "shaytaan" assigned to each man. Even the prophet had one. Therefore, he was a "sahabi" as well. The donkey that the prophet rode is also considered a sahabi, because it accompanied the prophet. The only difference between the Shias and the sunnis is that the Sunnies chose to follow the donkeys, while the shias chose to follow those worthy of being followed.

Wa salam

case in point.

thank u for proving my point. said as only a shia can.

[Dhulfiqar 34]

then i would at least hope to see them sometimes mentioned and discussed....cause last i remember it numbered to 7? and those only cause they either served under Hazrat Ali or sided with him.

case in point.

thank u for proving my point. said as only a shia can.

InshaAllah.

[jafery 0]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Dear Readers,

I have few questions to all of you. Please respond honestly considering the teaching of Ahlae Bait (as) before you

Is it better to teach non Shias/Sunnis the true path and convincing them with our valid aqaid supported by solid proof

or

cursing the three??

Convincing people to your aqaid with Ikhlaq and proof is far more better than cursing three and creating hate for Shias among non shia community.

The whole life and teaching Of prophet Muhammad is based on his character. He first established his character among arabs that he is honest,faithfull and doesn't lie. He didn't start abusing their idols and even he didn't break their most respected idol Azar before Fatah Makkah. If we focus on his life, we can conclude the results of our discussion .

Infact by cursing the respected personalities of other sect creates a problem for our ulema to convince others to Shiat aqaid. How does can one listen you if u abuses their leaders even if their leaders are wrong.

Now finally I would ask you what is most important for you among following

1-To spread Shiaism with proper debates with Sunnis/non Shia

2-Cursed the three before Sunnis

May Allah guide us in ever aspect of out life.

Waslam

[zeinab 0]

salam

i agree with brother jafary.

[HusseinAliYounes 1]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Dear Readers,

I have few questions to all of you. Please respond honestly considering the teaching of Ahlae Bait (as) before you

Is it better to teach non Shias/Sunnis the true path and convincing them with our valid aqaid supported by solid proof

or

cursing the three??

Convincing people to your aqaid with Ikhlaq and proof is far more better than cursing three and creating hate for Shias among non shia community.

The whole life and teaching Of prophet Muhammad is based on his character. He first established his character among arabs that he is honest,faithfull and doesn't lie. He didn't start abusing their idols and even he didn't break their most respected idol Azar before Fatah Makkah. If we focus on his life, we can conclude the results of our discussion .

Infact by cursing the respected personalities of other sect creates a problem for our ulema to convince others to Shiat aqaid. How does can one listen you if u abuses their leaders even if their leaders are wrong.

Now finally I would ask you what is most important for you among following

1-To spread Shiaism with proper debates with Sunnis/non Shia

2-Cursed the three before Sunnis

May Allah guide us in ever aspect of out life.

Waslam

(salam)

bro, thanks for your post. :D

[SpIzo 184]

Salam,

Is it better to teach non Shias/Sunnis the true path and convincing them with our valid aqaid supported by solid proof

or

cursing the three??

Convincing people to your aqaid with Ikhlaq and proof is far more better than cursing three and creating hate for Shias among non shia community.

You're mistaken. You are assuming that as soon as we come in contact with a Sunni, we start invoking la'anah on the Three?

The whole life and teaching Of prophet Muhammad is based on his character. He first established his character among arabs that he is honest,faithfull and doesn't lie. He didn't start abusing their idols and even he didn't break their most respected idol Azar before Fatah Makkah. If we focus on his life, we can conclude the results of our discussion.

I don't think anybody behaves like that [the way you're assuming the Shi'as behave]. Allah has cursed the disbelievers/unbelievers but that doesn't mean the Prophet (s) or his righteous companions (ar) cursed every disbeliever they met.

Neither does it stop those who disbelieved from inspecting Islam.

Likewise, Aimmah (as) have cursed the usurpers but that doesn't mean we start invoking la'anah on those three when we meet a Sunni.

And it should not stop those people who really want to learn from inspecting Shi'ism because those who really want to know will also want to know why those usurpers are condemned.

Infact by cursing the respected personalities of other sect creates a problem for our ulema to convince others to Shiat aqaid. How does can one listen you if u abuses their leaders even if their leaders are wrong.

This is actually a misconception.

We do not abuse the usupers. La'anah means that Allah's wrath descend on the concerned people.

If people are not ready to listen just because we curse their so-called respected leaders, then I doubt they would listen to the facts recorded in history concerning their "respected" leaders.

This is no excuse.

Wasalam.

[SpIzo 184]

im not here to discuss the characters of the Sahaba with you or anyone on this site. been there and done that. used to be a regular on the shia sunni section on this forum. you guys can believe anything u want about the sahaba (ra) from how evil power hungry they were to thier sexual orientation or if they were alcoholics....honestly at this point i dont know how much lower some shias can go but after the stuff ive seen on this forum i wouldnt be surprised.

believing in the Sahaba is not part of the religion but we obviously hold the Sahaba very high, esp the 3 the shias hate, and hold them to be part of the ayat Allah swt revealed for those under the tree. and dont tell us about loving the Prophet's family as we do, we remember them in our prayers daily and to us the family is much bigger than the select family shias hold high. again im not here to discuss who is in or not in but just because we dont believe in the 12 imam theory doesnt mean sunnis dont believe in, love , or praise the family. and anyway a lot of the ahlul bayt and sahaba overlap and the term sahaba is all inclusive and covers the Prophet's (pbuh) family.

i have never ever called shias kafir and while some sunnis do, majority dont even if they hold shias to be deviated from the right path. and doesnt rafidi mean rejector? and do u not reject the first 3 caliphs and sahaba overall?

anyway im not here to argue any of this...just clearing some points about what Sunnis believe, and to make it clear that even the more misinformed and biased sunni knows this much that the shia curse and hate the Sahaba.

Like you, I'm not here to argue or discuss this with you or for that matter any Sunni about the character of some sahabas. Been there and done that.

But concerning the bold part, is rejecting the caliphs tantamount to kufr or being called Rafedis?

I thought the Sunni fundamentals were Tawheed and Nabuwwah not Caliphate and rejecting Tawheed and Nabuwwah is kufr.

I had even started a thread on this topic but as usual got very less Sunni replies. [i think only one Sunni had replied] ;)

Also, when you love someone; you are bound to hate his enemies. Just as if you love Allah, you hate Shaytan; if you love the Prophet (s), you hate Abu Lahab and Abu Jahl. Abu Bakr and Hazrat Fatema (sa) could not have been right at the same time.

Edited June 23, 2006 by SpIzo

[jafery 0]

(salam)

Bro SpIzo

If you look into this thread you will came to know that many of our brothers are cursing Sunni's respected personalities. Internet is an open community and every one has access to it. The point I want to discuss was that we dont accept those companion of Rasool as Ashaab to whome Ahl-e-Bait (as) were hurted. We can start dialoge with Sunnies in decent manner and proving that those ashaab were not true followers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) . But if I present my same argument while cursing on these person, obviously they dont bother to listen my factual argument.

You're mistaken. You are assuming that as soon as we come in contact with a Sunni, we start invoking la'anah on the Three

No, a certain group of people do cursed them by name during ayam-e-Aza on roads. What do u think about that. Have u heared a road called Tabarra road? I heared in Shaam a group goes tfor Ziarat and cursed them in their Jaloos.

If people are not ready to listen just because we curse their so-called respected leaders, then I doubt they would listen to the facts recorded in history concerning their "respected" leaders.

yes they wont listen to the fact as far as we cursed them before ahla-sunna. Listen Bro those companions of Prophet are very well opened before us. We know what they have done with Ahal-e-bait. But a common Sunny person doesnt know their bad deeds. Those personalities are presented before our Sunni bros in sucha way that they became their leaders. We can prove those companions act from their books and can convince them.

The purpose of my post was this that we should focus on presenting those three caliph's against shariah from their books rather just cursing them.

I would like to paste a debate link between Jan ali kazmi and a sunni Aalim. A worth discussion to be listened. Thats the exact manner we should treet our sunni muslims.

http://www.karbala-najaf.org/debates/fidakp1.ram

May Allah guide us in spreading the truth in the manner that He wants.

Waslam

[SpIzo 184]

(salam)

Bro SpIzo

If you look into this thread you will came to know that many of our brothers are cursing Sunni's respected personalities.

Salam,

Lol, this thread is about la'anah.

Internet is an open community and every one has access to it. The point I want to discuss was that we dont accept those companion of Rasool as Ashaab to whome Ahl-e-Bait (as) were hurted. We can start dialoge with Sunnies in decent manner and proving that those ashaab were not true followers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) . But if I present my same argument while cursing on these person, obviously they dont bother to listen my factual argument.

That's what I'm saying. I don't think I start a dialogue with a Sunni by cursing the caliphs in the beginning.

And even if I start a conversation with a Sunni in a "decent manner" with proofs et al, they don't bother listening to the arguments and it's not because of tabarra.

Those who want to learn will learn without feeling that tabarra acts as a hindrance.

No, a certain group of people do cursed them by name during ayam-e-Aza on roads. What do u think about that. Have u heared a road called Tabarra road? I heared in Shaam a group goes tfor Ziarat and cursed them in their Jaloos.

Yeah, they're malangs.

yes they wont listen to the fact as far as we cursed them before ahla-sunna. Listen Bro those companions of Prophet are very well opened before us. We know what they have done with Ahal-e-bait. But a common Sunny person doesnt know their bad deeds. Those personalities are presented before our Sunni bros in sucha way that they became their leaders. We can prove those companions act from their books and can convince them.

The purpose of my post was this that we should focus on presenting those three caliph's against shariah from their books rather just cursing them.

Lol, you think Sunni/Shi'a forum is jokes?

I would like to paste a debate link between Jan ali kazmi and a sunni Aalim. A worth discussion to be listened. Thats the exact manner we should treet our sunni muslims.

http://www.karbala-najaf.org/debates/fidakp1.ram

I'll check it out later. Thanks for the link.

[Abuzar 4]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Dear Readers,

I have few questions to all of you. Please respond honestly considering the teaching of Ahlae Bait (as) before you

Is it better to teach non Shias/Sunnis the true path and convincing them with our valid aqaid supported by solid proof

or

cursing the three??

The two are not mutually exclusive. Both actions are based on teachings of the infallibles(as).

Convincing people to your aqaid with Ikhlaq and proof is far more better than cursing three and creating hate for Shias among non shia community.

The whole life and teaching Of prophet Muhammad is based on his character. He first established his character among arabs that he is honest,faithfull and doesn't lie. He didn't start abusing their idols and even he didn't break their most respected idol Azar before Fatah Makkah. If we focus on his life, we can conclude the results of our discussion .

Infact by cursing the respected personalities of other sect creates a problem for our ulema to convince others to Shiat aqaid. How does can one listen you if u abuses their leaders even if their leaders are wrong.

These are not questions.

Now finally I would ask you what is most important for you among following

1-To spread Shiaism with proper debates with Sunnis/non Shia

2-Cursed the three before Sunnis

May Allah guide us in ever aspect of out life.

As I said above the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, expressing bara'at from usurpers and tyrants is an important part of Shi'a Islam.

@)

Edited June 23, 2006 by Abuzar

[Abuzar 4]

(salam)

Bro SpIzo

If you look into this thread you will came to know that many of our brothers are cursing Sunni's respected personalities.

And indicating that it is an act recommended by the infallibles.... an indication that has not been disputed by any Shi'a discussant in this thread.

Internet is an open community and every one has access to it. The point I want to discuss was that we dont accept those companion of Rasool as Ashaab to whome Ahl-e-Bait (as) were hurted. We can start dialoge with Sunnies in decent manner and proving that those ashaab were not true followers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) .

We need not go into dissimulation to enter such a dialogue.

But if I present my same argument while cursing on these person, obviously they dont bother to listen my factual argument.

Yes, that would be counter-productive, but it does not happen in reality - i.e. cursing and dialogue are not combined. However, any non-Shi'a knowledgable enough to discuss religion with us, would be aware of this practice that is a recommended act in Shi'a Islam.

No, a certain group of people do cursed them by name during ayam-e-Aza on roads. What do u think about that. Have u heared a road called Tabarra road? I heared in Shaam a group goes tfor Ziarat and cursed them in their Jaloos.

In fact the first one - in my city - actually abuses them (an act not recommended by Shi'a Islam) rather than curse them (an act very much recommended by Shi'a Islam). However, neither the ones in Lahore nor the ones in Damascus are at that moment - or at any moment, in fact - engaged in dialogue with other sects. Nor do I expect Bawa Sada Hussain & Co engaged in such dialogue in the foreseeable future.

yes they wont listen to the fact as far as we cursed them before ahla-sunna. Listen Bro those companions of Prophet are very well opened before us. We know what they have done with Ahal-e-bait. But a common Sunny person doesnt know their bad deeds. Those personalities are presented before our Sunni bros in sucha way that they became their leaders. We can prove those companions act from their books and can convince them.

A 'common Sunni' does not normally know enough about his own beliefs or ours to be able to discuss religion. Those who have sufficient knowledge are also aware who and why we curse as a practice of our religion. Those who know Urdu and have heard the Ahle-Hadith scholar Maulana Ishaq Madni on this subject would have an idea what I am referring to.

The purpose of my post was this that we should focus on presenting those three caliph's against shariah from their books rather just cursing them.

The two, as I said, are not mutually exclusive.

@)

Edited June 23, 2006 by Abuzar

[Rawshni 9]

Tabarra is part of the fur'u. Abusaive language is not, and the shia faith explicity prohibits abusiveness.

The differences between Sunni Islam and Shia Islam are insurmountable.

People from one may convert to the other. Happens, have seen it it happen one way at least.

Unity among Shia and Sunni is deewaanay kaa khwaab.

[zeinab 0]

unity among sunnies and shias is whta?

dewaane means mad and khaab means dream,right?!

[Abuzar 4]

Unity among Shia and Sunni is deewaanay kaa khwaab.

Unity can take place - and to some extent already exists - on some minimum points of agreement, with knowledge that we continue to differ on some important usul-e deen, details of furu'-e deen and many areas of history of Muslims, the last despite the fact that surviving primary sources of history that we quote to recall the usurpation and tyranny by these persons have exclusively been authored by Sunnis.

We Shi'as see persons for the way they acted. Our non-Shi'a brethren find it necessary to indulge in personality worship of many tyrants and usurpers - this act very clearly not being a part of their faith, but practised so vehemently as if it were.

However, when 'unity' has to be ecumenical, it no longer remains unity, but actually becomes 'conversion' - albeit partial. And we most certainly should not support our conversion - even partial and temporary - to be 'united' with non-Shi'a Muslims. Not doing tabarra - for us a fara'-e deen - would be part of such ecumenics.

@)

[Dhulfiqar 34]

How abot we work on tolerance first before we move on to Unity. One step at a time.

[Shumailah 0]

Yes. As long as tolerance does not lead to compromising one's own beliefs

[Marbles 16,146]

How abot we work on tolerance first before we move on to Unity. One step at a time.

Tolerance is the first step towards unity. . .

In the broader sense, Unity means keeping your own beliefs with a feel of respect for the others. . .

Thus, tolerance yields unity . . .automatically. . .

they are not different. . .

also, compromise on our beliefs is not unity. . .it is called merging. . .

Edited June 24, 2006 by Jibran Haider

[Rawshni 9]

^

You are confusing tolerance and unity.

They are different philosophical and practical categories

[Marbles 16,146]

^

You are confusing tolerance and unity.

They are different philosophical and practical categories

Unity is advanced phenomenon of tolerance. . .

a toddler. . .

becomes a wrestler. . .

[Rawshni 9]

Unity is advanced phenomenon of tolerance. . .

a toddler. . .

becomes a wrestler. . .

Wrong concvet and inapplicable analogy . . . not even 0.01 per cent of toddlers become wrestlers

[Marbles 16,146]

Wrong concvet and inapplicable analogy . . . not even 0.01 per cent of toddlers become wrestlers

It is therefore we do not see any tolerance and unity among factions of a religion and among religions of the world. . .

applicable analogy :P

Edited June 24, 2006 by Jibran Haider

[Rawshni 9]

^

Okay . . . let's campaign then to make ALL toddlers in the muslim world wrestlers

[fzilla 0]

Like you, I'm not here to argue or discuss this with you or for that matter any Sunni about the character of some sahabas. Been there and done that.

But concerning the bold part, is rejecting the caliphs tantamount to kufr or being called Rafedis?

I thought the Sunni fundamentals were Tawheed and Nabuwwah not Caliphate and rejecting Tawheed and Nabuwwah is kufr.

I had even started a thread on this topic but as usual got very less Sunni replies. [i think only one Sunni had replied] ;)

Also, when you love someone; you are bound to hate his enemies. Just as if you love Allah, you hate Shaytan; if you love the Prophet (s), you hate Abu Lahab and Abu Jahl. Abu Bakr and Hazrat Fatema (sa) could not have been right at the same time.

being rafedies means rejecting the caliphs...doesnt mean kafir. if anything the scholars who consider shia kafir usually cite the belief that the Imams of the Shia are held to be superior to all the Prophets(peace be upon them) except for the very last Prophet (pbuh). im not sure where not believing in the caliphs or the Sahaba places you but as far as I know its not kufr, but thats only according to my local Imam whos says the Shia who believe such and such about the Sahaba are deviated but not kafir.

2ndly ive heard it in this thread and other threads here...that the Sunnis dont know thier own religion....well first of all Sunnis are not brought up the same as Shias. whereas Shias are brought up with the knowledge of why they arent Sunni, why they are a different sect, or the minority (depending on the region)...basically the average shia is brought up knowing all the differences and is brought up knowing the Sunni stance on many incidents. the average Sunni isnt introduced to the Shia or thier history or versions of history till they meet Shia on thier own or whatever...down the road. im not saying thats all the shia learn but im saying in this regard when a Shia comes in contact with a Sunni and might debate...the Shia knows 10 times more already for thier side. and u can think what u want of it but it isnt because the Sunnis wish to hide anything or that we dont have our own answers all the Shia claims but simly its fruitless....its just a circle of arguing, debating, and as happened with me (after months of arguing and debating) the heart becomes cold...esp after hearing some of what the Shia say about the Sahaba. if u really wanna see Sunnis who know thier religion and can answer all the questions the Shia have then go to a Sunni site or Sunni scholars..not regular Sunni members who might frequent this site.

and your claim that u have argued with Sunnis and presented proofs and they still dont listen...well then ur going about it wrong....unless ur expecting to "win" or "convert" ur always going to lose. if anything u can make the Sunni question somethings and go find answers to it. but face it the sunnis u argue with can say the same thing..."we showed that Shia all these proofs... and he wouldnt listen to logic"....thats why these debates are pointless. u are who u are...born shia then ur most likely going to remain and same with a sunni.

[Abuzar 4]

being rafedies means rejecting the caliphs...doesnt mean kafir.

The caliphs being whom?

By the way, to best of my knowledge, literal meaning of rafeda is the 'rejected' or the 'outcast' not 'rejector', i.e. it is not his act but that of another that supposedly makes one a rafedi.

@)

Edited June 25, 2006 by Abuzar

[Abuzar 4]

2ndly ive heard it in this thread and other threads here...that the Sunnis dont know thier own religion....well first of all Sunnis are not brought up the same as Shias. whereas Shias are brought up with the knowledge of why they arent Sunni, why they are a different sect, or the minority (depending on the region)...basically the average shia is brought up knowing all the differences and is brought up knowing the Sunni stance on many incidents. the average Sunni isnt introduced to the Shia or thier history or versions of history till they meet Shia on thier own or whatever...down the road.

However, it is Sunni scholars who have publicly pronounced - and the lay Sunni has not opposed - the apostatization of Shi'a Muslims, not the other way round. This lays your hypothesis very much open to question.

im not saying thats all the shia learn but im saying in this regard when a Shia comes in contact with a Sunni and might debate...the Shia knows 10 times more already for thier side.

Exactly!

and u can think what u AS indicated above, tant of it but it isnt because the Sunnis wish to hide anything or that we dont have our own answers all the Shia claims but simly its fruitless....its just a circle of arguing, debating, and as happened with me (after months of arguing and debating) the heart becomes cold...esp after hearing some of what the Shia say about the Sahaba. if u really wanna see Sunnis who know thier religion and can answer all the questions the Shia have then go to a Sunni site or Sunni scholars..not regular Sunni members who might frequent this site.

I have referred the name of an Ahle Hadith Sunni scholar Maulana Ishaq Madni, link to whose speech about tyranny perpetrated by Umar bin Khattab on the Holy Prophet (pbuh) & his daughter (as) has been posted earlier on this forum by some discussants. I have also had opportunity to read Khilafat o Mulukiyat by Abul Aala Maududi and many books by Tahir ul Qadri, who have recounted in specific detail the tyrannies perpetrated by Muawiya bin Abu Sufian, considered by most Sunnis to be a sahabi.

and your claim that u have argued with Sunnis and presented proofs and they still dont listen...well then ur going about it wrong....unless ur expecting to "win" or "convert" ur always going to lose. if anything u can make the Sunni question somethings and go find answers to it. but face it the sunnis u argue with can say the same thing..."we showed that Shia all these proofs... and he wouldnt listen to logic"....thats why these debates are pointless. u are who u are...born shia then ur most likely going to remain and same with a sunni.

As indicated above, the knowledgable Sunnis - who know not only Sunni but Shi'a Islam - specifically acknowledge the tyranny perpetrated by the likes of Umar bin Khattab and Muawiya bin Abu Sufian. The 'inherited' ones lack knowledge about Sunni Islam - what to talk of Shi'a - to enter any meaningful dialogue.

@)

Edited June 25, 2006 by Abuzar

[Solar 0]

How abot we work on tolerance first before we move on to Unity. One step at a time.

Tolerance of what?

[SpIzo 184]

Tolerance of what?

Maybe towards each others' beliefs?

[Rawshni 9]

Maybe towards each others' beliefs?

May be towards the denail of what we Shia deem to be Haqq?

[Ali Fazel 2]

Does one have to curse?

Isn't knowing the truth, about what happened and how they manipulated and transmitting this truth to other Muslim people not enough? Isn't truth powerful enough to bring people to the right path?

Tabarra and cursing are two different things -- are they not?