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THE_TRUTH

Cursing the Three..

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but it is not obligatory to say it.

says who?........I think you better take after youre name and stay in youre little world..........by the way I dont believe in taqleed so dont give me a name, I only care about ahlul bayt (as) and quran, and from Quran and ahlul bayt (as) ali yun wali ullah is absolutely necessary in namaaz..........

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asalamu alaykum

i wonder how they check the authenticity of hadiths when ilm al rijal is written by scholars

and isnt it ironic to consider hadiths , in books of scholars ?

True Akhbaris do not believe in Ilm al Rijal. Like the person said before, Akbarism is similar to Wahaabism when it comes to Taqleed. Wahaabis shun the concept of Taqleed of the 4 Sunni Fuqaha.. The Wahaabi say they follow the "Salaf." Similary, the Akbari of today shun taqleed and try to follow the 'Aimmah. What's troublesome is, since, neo-Akhbaris resent Arab scholars -- much of their "following of the 'Aimmah" is based on Qiyas. Qiyas, again, is a Sunni fiqhi method.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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Asalamu alaykum

wait , so because Imam Ali (as) gave the ring to the beggar we have to say aliyun wali Allah in the prayer ?

well if Allah is mentioning it in the quran, then there must be some significance to it, however there are millions of hadeeths with me right now on different verses, if I post them from sunni references the argument will be ended :)

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Salaams.

First of all, let me clarify a misconception that some people have, and that is:

"Over-Individualization of General Curses". For example, a curse can be made on an aspect,

But it would be wrong to Individualize it to pinpointed individuals. What do I mean?

For example, Qur'an curses the Kadhibeen. Then we cannot say, Mr. X is a liar, and so:

Quran is cursing his person (dhat) here. Actually, this would make many of us cursed too. But here is the point:

Qur'an would not be cursing the individual essense (dhat) of the people as a whole,

But it would be cursing their act, or repremanding for their act.

Therefore it makes no sense to bond general curses to particular individuals.

They are general, and there is a wisdom in generality, no need to add our conjecture to it.

_______________________________________________________________

Second Point:

Cursing is not a pillar of deen or faith. This is so insignificant in regards to pillars of faith.

The important things in faith are: Belief and Worship of One God, Following His command,

believe in the revelation, the messenger, the judgement day, the ahkaam aspects, such as:

Salaah, Sawm, Zakah, Hajj, Charity, Akhlaq, Dhikr-Allah, Amal-e-Saleh, etc.

It especially hurts me when people who have no honor or following of the above, talk about cursings.

For example, this cousin of mine, who never prays, even though he has nothing to do, and prayer is ongoing.

But when it comes to talking on religion, he knows only 2 things, cursing and emotional matam.

Such people are the filth of our society. They are rebels against God, and rebels against the teachings of the Aimmah,

And yet they stake their false claims through misguiding emotional matam, and viling their tongues with curses.

________________________________________________________________

Third Point:

People fail to realize the mission of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).

Their mission was not to make themselves the object of Deen,

Nor to make their enemies, and whoever opposed them even an iota, the focus of deen.

Rather, their mission was to make and keep the Ummah united in a pure deen.

Remove misconceptions, teach religion, reform the ways of people and administer justice.

In essence, they cared for the life, property, honor and well-being of all muslims.

In this project, it does not make any sense for cursing on the three to be on the radar.

Yes, the three made mistakes, and performed some vile acts against the Islamic interest,

but they were not out there with the intent of destroying Islam.

They were just not the qualified or "sufficiently just" people to rule over it.

On the other hand, people like Muawiyah (la), and Yazeed (la) and their stooge armies,

were out to destroy Islam, for their selfish monarchial purposes.

That is why they are rightfully deserving of Lanat and curses.

That is why Imam Ali (as) drew his sword against Muawiyah (la),

Imam Hasan (as) drew his sword against Muawiyah (la), and

Imam Husain (as) drew his sword against Yazeed (la).

It was their intention to annihilate and wipe out that scourge which was out to destroy Islam.

Brethren, Please make a distinction between people looking for political gains, such as:

First three, Bibi Ayesha, etc. and People out to destroy Islam (Muawiyah, Yazeed, etc).

Imams were not concerned that much about people who wanted political gain, just as long as

there was enough breathing space for influencing and reforming the direction of the Ummah.

However, they were concerned about those who were drawn out to root and cut Islam at its very base.

This is why on one hand Imams worked alongside the Caliphs, despite being denied their rights..

But on the other hand, drew out in blood against those accursed who were out for destroying Islam.

I believe the Imams cursed those who were out to destroy Islam, and not the three.

Otherwise the Imams do not subscribe to "double-standards" to work with those whom they curse.

_____________________________________________________________

Thats the way at least I, look at it.

Was-salaam.

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True Akhbaris do not believe in Ilm al Rijal. Like the person said before, Akbarism is similar to Wahaabism when it comes to Taqleed. Wahaabis shun the concept of Taqleed of the 4 Sunni Fuqaha.. The Wahaabi say they follow the "Salaf." Similary, the Akbari of today shun taqleed and try to follow the 'Aimmah. What's troublesome is, since, neo-Akhbaris resent Arab scholars -- much of their "following of the 'Aimmah" is based on Qiyas. Qiyas, again, is a Sunni fiqhi method.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

qiyas is drawing pictures of imams (as), so usoolis are not ones to talk, also qiyas is giving youre own opinions and fatwas etc......however talking with someone whose heart has been sealed is truly a waste of time ;)

Salaams.

First of all, let me clarify a misconception that some people have, and that is:

"Over-Individualization of General Curses". For example, a curse can be made on an aspect,

But it would be wrong to Individualize it to pinpointed individuals. What do I mean?

For example, Qur'an curses the Kadhibeen. Then we cannot say, Mr. X is a liar, and so:

Quran is cursing his person (dhat) here. Actually, this would make many of us cursed too. But here is the point:

Qur'an would not be cursing the individual essense (dhat) of the people as a whole,

But it would be cursing their act, or repremanding for their act.

Therefore it makes no sense to bond general curses to particular individuals.

They are general, and there is a wisdom in generality, no need to add our conjecture to it.

_______________________________________________________________

Second Point:

Cursing is not a pillar of deen or faith. This is so insignificant in regards to pillars of faith.

The important things in faith are: Belief and Worship of One God, Following His command,

believe in the revelation, the messenger, the judgement day, the ahkaam aspects, such as:

Salaah, Sawm, Zakah, Hajj, Charity, Akhlaq, Dhikr-Allah, Amal-e-Saleh, etc.

It especially hurts me when people who have no honor or following of the above, talk about cursings.

For example, this cousin of mine, who never prays, even though he has nothing to do, and prayer is ongoing.

But when it comes to talking on religion, he knows only 2 things, cursing and emotional matam.

Such people are the filth of our society. They are rebels against God, and rebels against the teachings of the Aimmah,

And yet they stake their false claims through misguiding emotional matam, and viling their tongues with curses.

________________________________________________________________

Third Point:

People fail to realize the mission of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).

Their mission was not to make themselves the object of Deen,

Nor to make their enemies, and whoever opposed them even an iota, the focus of deen.

Rather, their mission was to make and keep the Ummah united in a pure deen.

Remove misconceptions, teach religion, reform the ways of people and administer justice.

In essence, they cared for the life, property, honor and well-being of all muslims.

In this project, it does not make any sense for cursing on the three to be on the radar.

Yes, the three made mistakes, and performed some vile acts against the Islamic interest,

but they were not out there with the intent of destroying Islam.

They were just not the qualified or "sufficiently just" people to rule over it.

On the other hand, people like Muawiyah (la), and Yazeed (la) and their stooge armies,

were out to destroy Islam, for their selfish monarchial purposes.

That is why they are rightfully deserving of Lanat and curses.

That is why Imam Ali (as) drew his sword against Muawiyah (la),

Imam Hasan (as) drew his sword against Muawiyah (la), and

Imam Husain (as) drew his sword against Yazeed (la).

It was their intention to annihilate and wipe out that scourge which was out to destroy Islam.

Brethren, Please make a distinction between people looking for political gains, such as:

First three, Bibi Ayesha, etc. and People out to destroy Islam (Muawiyah, Yazeed, etc).

Imams were not concerned that much about people who wanted political gain, just as long as

there was enough breathing space for influencing and reforming the direction of the Ummah.

However, they were concerned about those who were drawn out to root and cut Islam at its very base.

This is why on one hand Imams worked alongside the Caliphs, despite being denied their rights..

But on the other hand, drew out in blood against those accursed who were out for destroying Islam.

I believe the Imams cursed those who were out to destroy Islam, and not the three.

Otherwise the Imams do not subscribe to "double-standards" to work with those whom they curse.

_____________________________________________________________

Thats the way at least I, look at it.

Was-salaam.

then why has Allah warned uthman (la) at the start of surah abasa?

Edited by Star_Badr

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qiyas is drawing pictures of imams (as), so usoolis are not ones to talk, also qiyas is giving youre own opinions and fatwas etc......however talking with someone whose heart has been sealed is truly a waste of time ;)

I'm not sure you know what Qiyas means. Do you? I apologize if I'm mistaken.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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says who?........I think you better take after youre name and stay in youre little world..........by the way I dont believe in taqleed so dont give me a name, I only care about ahlul bayt (as) and quran, and from Quran and ahlul bayt (as) ali yun wali ullah is absolutely necessary in namaaz..........

Star Badr thinks if a leopard takes a new name, his spots won't be noticeable. Don't bother directing comments at him, he is not longer available.

Now as for what Ahlul Bayt (as) say so that there is no confusion in the minds of members:

[ 8264 ] 1 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÕÝæÇä ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÈßíÑ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çáãáß Èä ÚãÑ æÇáÃÍæá ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÇáÊÔåøÏ Ýí ÇáÑßÚÊíä ÇáÃæøáÊíä : ÇáÍãÏ ááå ¡ ÃÔåÏ Ãä áÇ Åáå ÅáÇø Çááå ¡ æÍÏå áÇ ÔÑíß áå ¡ æÃÔåÏ Ãäø ãÍãøÏÇð ÚÈÏå æÑÓæáå ¡ Çááøåã Õáø Úáì ãÍãøÏ æÂá ãÍãøÏ ¡ æÊÞÈøá ÔÝÇÚÊå (1) æÇÑÝÚ ÏÑÌÊå.

From Imam Alsadiq (as) : The Shahadah in the first two rakaat: Alhamdulillah, I bear witness that there is no God save Allah, one without partner, and I bear witness that Mohammad is his servant and messenger, O'Allah send blessings on Mohammad and Aaali Mohammad and accept his intercession and elevate his station.

[ 8272 ] 1 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ¡ Úä ÇáÚÈøÇÓ Èä ãÚÑæÝ ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ãåÒíÇÑ ¡ Úä ÍãøÇÏ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ÍÑíÒ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ¡ Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ ÞÇá : ÞáÊ áÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) : ãÇ íÌÒí ãä ÇáÞæá Ýí ÇáÊÔåøÏ Ýí ÇáÑßÚÊíä ÇáÃæøáÊíä ¿ ÞÇá : Ãä ÊÞæá : ÃÔåÏ Ãä áÇ Åáå ÅáÇø Çááå æÍÏå áÇ ÔÑíß áå ¡ ÞáÊ : ÝãÇ íÌÒí ãä ÊÔåøÏ ÇáÑßÚÊíä ÇáÃÎíÑÊíä ¿ ÝÞÇá : ÇáÔåÇÏÊÇä.

Zuraara said, "I asked Abu Jaafar (as) : What is sufficient for one to recite in tashahhud after the first two rakaat?". He said: 'I bear witness that there is no God save Allah, one without partner'. I then asked, "What is sufficient for one to say after the last two rakaat?". He replied, 'THE SHAHADATAN'.

http://www.rafed.net/books/hadith/wasael-6/was6020.html#228.

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imagination..........

I'm sure if you're being sarcastic but Qiyas means analogical deduction. Qiyas is a method of comparison to "stablish equality or similarity between two things." To further explain Qiyas in details, there are four parts to Qiyas:

1. Asl - original situation

2. Far - new situation

3. Illah - effective cause

4. Hukm - ruling

Example of Qiyas would be:

Asl - Drinking wine

Far - Smoking weed (marijuana)

Illah - Intoxication

Hukm - Prohibition (Haram)

In it's nature Qiyas is speculative, since the laws derived from Qiyas cannot bear the same certainty and authority as the original situation (Asl) which comes from Qur'an and Sunnah. There is debate over some (Sunni) jurists if a Hukm derived from Qiyas can be the Asl for a new situation.

In essence Qiyas demotes the use of 'aql (intellect) in Ijtihad. But it becomes quite obvious what the flaws are in Qiyas. A crude example would be:

Asl - Blood

Far - Red clothing

Illah - Color red

Hukm - Wearing red is prohibited (Haram)

Derivation of Illah can be tricky and can easily be used to legitize (or delegitimize) something in Islam. And if you use Qiyas laws as Asl the matter gets even worse. This is the reason why Qiyas in Shi'i-Usooli Fiqh is Haram.

InshaAllah, this sheds some light and gives a better understanding on the concept of Qiyas.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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as a sunni wether u say it front of my face or behind my back the fact that shias curse the Sahaba (ra) is extremely upsetting. im not saying what u should do or not do, thats up to u guys but just cause u dont do it in front of our faces doesnt mean we dont know its done.

2ndly i personally i think it takes away from the true debate between the sects, what seperates in aqeedah and thats the shie belief in 12 imams ordained by Allah swt. compared to who the shia think was evil, the concept of imamate is rarely a discussed.

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as a sunni wether u say it front of my face or behind my back the fact that shias curse the Sahaba (ra) is extremely upsetting. im not saying what u should do or not do, thats up to u guys but just cause u dont do it in front of our faces doesnt mean we dont know its done.

2ndly i personally i think it takes away from the true debate between the sects, what seperates in aqeedah and thats the shie belief in 12 imams ordained by Allah swt. compared to who the shia think was evil, the concept of imamate is rarely a discussed.

Thank you for your candid response.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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as a sunni wether u say it front of my face or behind my back the fact that shias curse the Sahaba (ra) is extremely upsetting. im not saying what u should do or not do, thats up to u guys but just cause u dont do it in front of our faces doesnt mean we dont know its done.

2ndly i personally i think it takes away from the true debate between the sects, what seperates in aqeedah and thats the shie belief in 12 imams ordained by Allah swt. compared to who the shia think was evil, the concept of imamate is rarely a discussed.

(bismillah)

(salam)

History has recorded tyrannical acts of some of those our Sunni brethren define as sahaba. And history has not been written by Shi'as.

If distancing ourselves from these tyrants, verbally and practically in the manner taught by Islam, results in our Sunni brethren's inability to have other discussions with us, that inability is an issue for those brethren to address.

We Shi'as are open to discussion even with those accursed persons who apostatize us and kill us - an act that has sadly not found condemnation from Sunni populace in general.

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If some people think that unity is impossible or un-achievable,

that fine... everyone has a right to their opinion.

BUT, all I ask is that all such people,

Please do NOT be a hindrance to all those who believe in achieving it (Unity).

And to start this,

We should not even talk about la'nats. I mean thats just a plain No no.

Muawiyah's people engaged in Curses,

whereas Imam Ali's people were guided by him to be "just" rather than abusive.

Was-salaam.

What is your definition of "UNITY" forgeforth? How should we UNITE with the Sunnis? In what sense should we UNITE with them?

You're making it seem as soon as we meet a Sunni, we just start sending la'anah on those three.

-----------------------------------------

Bro Link, I couldn't have said better.

taqleed is a arab and persian thing traced back to Mr.mufid and Mr.Hilli.....however to understand this topic takes time, rather than diving in straight away, however imam sadiq (as) said "when our qaim comes, he will be severe with the arabs", we can see why I guess in the corrupt societ today, also Imam Sadiq (as) said the "coming of our qaim will be close, when Islam disappears like snake disappears in its hole", we can see that again today, nobody seems to be following the true religion, its just their own whims and desires.......

Yeah right! And you've complete knowledge of who those Arabs are who will be "severed" by Imam (atf).

Imam (atf) will also kill those Shi'as who claimed to be his followers but didn't follow Islam the way he commanded to.

And also, even though now you're banned, I'm sure you will still be reading this: learn to address with respect. Sheikh Mufid (ar) and Allamah Hilli (ar)'s difficulties were solved by Imam az-Zaman (atf) himself many times. If Imam (atf) has met them; this proves that he approves their work. This also shows who is following his "own" opinions.

The irony is that you yourself refer to the books authored by these `ulema otherwise from where do you get your daily quota of ahadith to follow the religion [keeping in mind the fact that you do not do taqlid and strictly adhere to the "Ahadith"]!?!

Salaams.

First of all, let me clarify a misconception that some people have, and that is:

"Over-Individualization of General Curses". For example, a curse can be made on an aspect,

But it would be wrong to Individualize it to pinpointed individuals. What do I mean?

For example, Qur'an curses the Kadhibeen. Then we cannot say, Mr. X is a liar, and so:

Quran is cursing his person (dhat) here. Actually, this would make many of us cursed too. But here is the point:

Qur'an has cursed Abu Lahab by name.

Qur'an would not be cursing the individual essense (dhat) of the people as a whole,

But it would be cursing their act, or repremanding for their act.

You mean lying is cursed but the person who is lying is not cursed?

Therefore it makes no sense to bond general curses to particular individuals.

They are general, and there is a wisdom in generality, no need to add our conjecture to it.

We don't add anything.

Second Point:

Cursing is not a pillar of deen or faith. This is so insignificant in regards to pillars of faith.

The important things in faith are: Belief and Worship of One God, Following His command,

believe in the revelation, the messenger, the judgement day, the ahkaam aspects, such as:

Salaah, Sawm, Zakah, Hajj, Charity, Akhlaq, Dhikr-Allah, Amal-e-Saleh, etc.

You missed out Tawallah and Tabarra.

It especially hurts me when people who have no honor or following of the above, talk about cursings.

For example, this cousin of mine, who never prays, even though he has nothing to do, and prayer is ongoing.

But when it comes to talking on religion, he knows only 2 things, cursing and emotional matam.

Such people are the filth of our society. They are rebels against God, and rebels against the teachings of the Aimmah,

And yet they stake their false claims through misguiding emotional matam, and viling their tongues with curses.

Not all people are like that. I pray, I fast, I recite dua'a but I also invoke Allah's wrath on them; does this mean I'm a filth to the society too?

And don't you think you're generalizing. You're ashamed to call *some people* filth who were really filth but you have no problem calling one of your own filth.

Third Point:

People fail to realize the mission of the Ahlul-Bayt (as).

Their mission was not to make themselves the object of Deen,

Nor to make their enemies, and whoever opposed them even an iota, the focus of deen.

Rather, their mission was to make and keep the Ummah united in a pure deen.

Remove misconceptions, teach religion, reform the ways of people and administer justice.

In essence, they cared for the life, property, honor and well-being of all muslims.

In this project, it does not make any sense for cursing on the three to be on the radar.

For you it may not make any sense. You've failed to realize the logic behind invoking la'anah on the usurpers.

Yes, the three made mistakes, and performed some vile acts against the Islamic interest,

but they were not out there with the intent of destroying Islam.

They were just not the qualified or "sufficiently just" people to rule over it.

Mistakes is really an understatement. You seem to have read some other [distorted] history.

The Usurpers' main intention was to destroy Islam.

On the other hand, people like Muawiyah (la), and Yazeed (la) and their stooge armies,

were out to destroy Islam, for their selfish monarchial purposes.

That is why they are rightfully deserving of Lanat and curses.

That is why Imam Ali (as) drew his sword against Muawiyah (la),

Imam Hasan (as) drew his sword against Muawiyah (la), and

Imam Husain (as) drew his sword against Yazeed (la).

It was their intention to annihilate and wipe out that scourge which was out to destroy Islam.

The stage for Muawiyah and Yazeed had been set at Saqifah.

Brethren, Please make a distinction between people looking for political gains, such as:

First three, Bibi Ayesha, etc. and People out to destroy Islam (Muawiyah, Yazeed, etc).

You seem to be grossly misinformed.

Imams were not concerned that much about people who wanted political gain, just as long as

there was enough breathing space for influencing and reforming the direction of the Ummah.

It was not just about politics. If it was only about politics why did Umar ban Mut'a? Why did he innovate Taraweeh? Why was narration of ahadith banned? ....

However, they were concerned about those who were drawn out to root and cut Islam at its very base.

If it really didn't matter who the caliph would be after Holy Prophet (s) why was the matter of Imamate of Imam Ali (as) of prime importance?

This is why on one hand Imams worked alongside the Caliphs, despite being denied their rights..

But on the other hand, drew out in blood against those accursed who were out for destroying Islam.

Imam Ali (as) didn't work alongside the caliphs for them but for Islam and that too for a reason. Post #11

I believe the Imams cursed those who were out to destroy Islam, and not the three.

Otherwise the Imams do not subscribe to "double-standards" to work with those whom they curse.

_____________________________________________________________

Thats the way at least I, look at it.

That's what you believe but there are many ahadith contradicting you [mind you, authenticated by the `ulema].

"Working" with the so-called caliphs is not double standards. Imam Ali (as) was not working for them; but for Islam.

The reason why the caliphs usurped the right of Hazrat Fatema (sa) was because they knew that if Hazrat Fatema (sa) had her right; then they would've to return Imam Ali (as)'s right too.

Edited by SpIzo

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O Allah, curse particularly the first tyrant and begin with him first,then the second, the third, and the fourth. O Allah, curse the fifth one, Yazid, and 'Ubaydullah bin Ziyad, and Ibne Marjanah, and 'Umar ibne Sa'ad, and Shimr, and the family of Abu Sufyan, the family of Ziyad, and the family of Marwan, till the Day of Judgement.

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Invoking l'aanat upon those who rebel aganst Allah or those appointed by Allah is a clear requirement of Shi'i aqeedah. Unitists are free to draw their own conclusions.

THat said, what is notable is how, from amongst the Shia, a fifth cplumn has been raised that open, flagrantly denounces all that differentiates the Shia from all tose profess Islam, either due to lack of guidance or sheer hypocricy.

Those who come under the umbrella of lack of guidance are those born into "MUslim" families, brought up in teir ways, and have somegow not bee exposed to Sh'i dawah.

The hyopcrites are folks who claim to be knowledgeable, yet oppose tabarra and the rituals of Azadari

Edited by haazirmoula

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If one, two and three are Caliphs in their order who is the fourth Caliph?

If Yazid ( tabarra) is fifth, Mauwia ( tabarra) is fourth shouldn't Abu Sufyan ( tabarra) be the third?

If one to fifth are different and Yazid is sixth, who are these five people?

Edited by Mazher's

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Ah Mazher...wasn't it you who wrote this some time back and still was giving other people lessons about "real Islam"? You wrote this:

salam to imam abu bakar ra. 1st unquestionable caliph

salam to imam umar ra. 2nd unquestionable caliph

salam to imam usman ra. 3rd unquestionable caliph

salam to imam ali as4th unqestionable caliph

It's wonderful to see that you have changed...

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Invoking l'aanat upon those who rebel aganst Allah or those appointed by Allah is a clear requirement of Shi'i aqeedah. Unitists are free to draw their own conclusions.

Obviously you dont even know the meaning of "Aqeedah".

My humble request to the cursists, is that please put cursing-culture aside,

and begin studying worthy material, i.e. Aqeedah.

Was-salaam.

ps: Regarding your username:- Note: Only Allah (swt) is Haazir (present) everywhere.

To say "haazirmoula" for Imam Ali (as) is clear shirk. Sorry to say, but I could'nt resist citing.

_____________________________________________________________________

Sr. SpiZo,

Salaams. I just have one advice for you. Please ponder the hadith of Imam Ali (as):

"I prefer the wisdom of an Old man, to the passion/zeal of a Young man".

Do not let emotion carry you away. Thats what opportunists and emotionalists will want.

Anyways, perhaps you'll understand what I'm saying in due time.

I say what I say because the emotional taints skewing your logic are clearly visible.

Pardon me for saying....

Was-salaam.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

History has recorded tyrannical acts of some of those our Sunni brethren define as sahaba. And history has not been written by Shi'as.

If distancing ourselves from these tyrants, verbally and practically in the manner taught by Islam, results in our Sunni brethren's inability to have other discussions with us, that inability is an issue for those brethren to address.

We Shi'as are open to discussion even with those accursed persons who apostatize us and kill us - an act that has sadly not found condemnation from Sunni populace in general.

thats the shia view. we do not hold our history to show these men as evil men who had nothing but hate in them or whatever else people claim about them...to the extent of thier sexuality as ive seen countless times on this forum. we see them as pious men and thats with the history which u claim we have and ignore.

that wasnt the point anyway. my whole point was just cause shias dont curse the Sahaba (ra) in front of doesnt mean we dont know about it...in fact its one of the main things even the most misinformed Sunni will know about the Shia...that they curse those who we love so much, so i dont get this notion of "dont curse them in front of Sunnis" as if it hides anything.

i rather see more debates discussing the theory behind Imamate, because as much as a Sunni believe the Shia are wrong in thier view of the Sahaba (ra) the real difference in our aqeedahs lies in the pillar of Shiism in Imamate.

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My humble request to the cursists, is that please put cursing-culture aside,

and begin studying worthy material, i.e. Aqeedah.

I'm sorry too I couldn't resist replying to this even though it wasn't meant for me. How about you put your garb of delusive unity aside and begin studying worthy material: AQEEDAH?

Cursing is not a part of any culture. It's in the Qur'an. It's in the ahadith.

It is really amusing that you are telling us to study our aqeedah when it is clear who needs to study his religion thoroughly.

Sr. SpiZo,

Salaams. I just have one advice for you. Please ponder the hadith of Imam Ali (as):

"I prefer the wisdom of an Old man, to the passion/zeal of a Young man".

Bro forgeforth,

Walaikum Salam. I have an advice for you too. How about you stop picking and choosing traditions according to your whims and fancies?

Do not let emotion carry you away. Thats what opportunists and emotionalists will want.

Anyways, perhaps you'll understand what I'm saying in due time.

You conveniently brushed aside all my points which you should've answered but obviously you couldn't coz you had no reply.

I'm sorry I can never understand what you were saying; even in due time; because you never bothered to answer my questions.

I say what I say because the emotional taints skewing your logic are clearly visible.

Lol, really? Then maybe you should've done me a favor of showing me where I was skewing my logic because of "emotional taints" instead of dismissing my post.

Pardon me for saying....

Pardon me too...

Edited by SpIzo

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Guest Shia by nature

(bismillah) (salam)

tabarrah is WAJIB. We curse certain people in Ziarat Ashura aswell. But it should be done with style. I myself sometimes sound very harsh when I say names and then swear at them.

Lanatullah is enough.

E.g.: Abu Sufiyan lanatullah.

This should be avoided:

E.g.: Abu Sufiyan [edited - You do not need to post the vulgarity to emphasis the point]

I've seen many shias do that.

ma Salam

SBN

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thats the shia view. we do not hold our history to show these men as evil men who had nothing but hate in them or whatever else people claim about them...to the extent of thier sexuality as ive seen countless times on this forum. we see them as pious men and thats with the history which u claim we have and ignore.

Yeah! pious men who were both wrong and right at the same time.

that wasnt the point anyway. my whole point was just cause shias dont curse the Sahaba (ra) in front of doesnt mean we dont know about it...in fact its one of the main things even the most misinformed Sunni will know about the Shia...that they curse those who we love so much, so i dont get this notion of "dont curse them in front of Sunnis" as if it hides anything.

Loving the companions is not a part of aqeedah neither it is there in the Qur'an that it is obligatory to love the Prophet (s)'s companions "so much" that it becomes incumbent on you all to call us kafirs or "Rafedis" [surprisingly loving the Prophet (s)'s kinsfolk is very much mentioned in the Qur'an and obligatory upon all the Muslims].

Edited by SpIzo

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Loving the companions is not a part of aqeedah neither it is there in the Qur'an that it is obligatory to love the Prophet (s)'s companions "so much" that it becomes incumbent on you all to call us kafirs or "Rafedis" [surprisingly loving the Prophet (s)'s kinsfolk is very much mentioned in the Qur'an and obligatory upon all the Muslims].

The whole issue is that the Sunnis and Shia have both made a big mistake on this:

Sunnis Mistake:- Considering Loving Companions as part of religion

Shias Mistake:- Considering Cursing of (certain) Companions as part of religion

Both are wrong, and both erraneously conjecturely extrapolate verses to support their claims,

Yet it is clearly evident that Religion is something above that...

It is not to do with "people", it is to do with God.

Dis-unity is arising because the two groups concentrate on things that have nothing to do with religion.

If they concentrated on Tawheed, Worshipping God, Dhikr-Allah, Salah, Zakah, Sawm,

Good Akhlaaq, Amal-e-Saleh, Charity, Enjoining Good, Forbidding evil, etc.

i.e. if they concentrated on religion, they would be brothers, united.

But instead they concentrate on "people".

The Ahlul-Bayt (as) did not concentrate on people, they concentrated on Religion.

We should concentrate on Islam, not on people.

For those Shia who try to mis-use Tabarra (keeping aloof of enemies of God),

as a pretext for cursings.. I'd like to tell you..

If you have a personal issue with anyone who is dead, then you are already aloof.

(Remember, Tabarra is keeping aloof, not cursing)

As for the sunnis, they are our brethren, and there is no tabarra against sunnis.

Sunnis, like us shia, believe in one God, worship one God, believe in the Message and Messenger and Ahkam.

Therefore they are our brothers. Their blood, honor, life and property is as sacred as our own.

So let us not hurt one another, or the feelings thereof,

and instead unite on Religion (Deen of Allah) and leave discussing "people" aside.

This is why I called a particular cousin of mine, "filth" of society, because in his case,

He has left religion (salah, etc), but is the first when it comes to discussing/cursing "people".

We should leave discussing people, not leave Religion.

We should embrace Religion, not discussing of people.

Imam Ali (as) said [to paraphrase]

Weak Minds discuss people, Strong minds discuss Issues.

Was-salaam.

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The whole issue is that the Sunnis and Shia have both made a big mistake on this:

Sunnis Mistake:- Considering Loving Companions as part of religion

Shias Mistake:- Considering Cursing of (certain) Companions as part of religion

Both are wrong, and both erraneously conjecturely extrapolate verses to support their claims,

Yet it is clearly evident that Religion is something above that...

It is not to do with "people", it is to do with God.

Dis-unity is arising because the two groups concentrate on things that have nothing to do with religion.

If they concentrated on Tawheed, Worshipping God, Dhikr-Allah, Salah, Zakah, Sawm,

Good Akhlaaq, Amal-e-Saleh, Charity, Enjoining Good, Forbidding evil, etc.

i.e. if they concentrated on religion, they would be brothers, united.

But instead they concentrate on "people".

The Ahlul-Bayt (as) did not concentrate on people, they concentrated on Religion.

We should concentrate on Islam, not on people.

For those Shia who try to mis-use Tabarra (keeping aloof of enemies of God),

as a pretext for cursings.. I'd like to tell you..

If you have a personal issue with anyone who is dead, then you are already aloof.

(Remember, Tabarra is keeping aloof, not cursing)

As for the sunnis, they are our brethren, and there is no tabarra against sunnis.

Sunnis, like us shia, believe in one God, worship one God, believe in the Message and Messenger and Ahkam.

Therefore they are our brothers. Their blood, honor, life and property is as sacred as our own.

So let us not hurt one another, or the feelings thereof,

and instead unite on Religion (Deen of Allah) and leave discussing "people" aside.

This is why I called a particular cousin of mine, "filth" of society, because in his case,

He has left religion (salah, etc), but is the first when it comes to discussing/cursing "people".

We should leave discussing people, not leave Religion.

We should embrace Religion, not discussing of people.

Imam Ali (as) said [to paraphrase]

Weak Minds discuss people, Strong minds discuss Issues.

Was-salaam.

(salam)

you speak well bro. :D

I make a small incursion into this topic to show that you are not all alone to think like that.

you have in front of you a difficult mission. that Allah comes you to assistance.

wassalam

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(salam)

you speak well bro. :D

I make a small incursion into this topic to show that you are not all alone to think like that.

you have in front of you a difficult mission. that Allah comes you to assistance.

wassalam

Salaams Bro, and thanks for your comments, support and duas.

Its good to know that there are others, like minded-

And perhaps many more than we'll ever know. One Big Family !

W/s.

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Sunni books write that Hadhrat Fatima sait to Abubakr:

“æÇááå¡ áÇÏÚõæä Çááå Úáíß Ýí ßá ÕáÇÉ ÇõÕóáøíåÇ”

" I curse you in all my prayers".

- Sahih Bukhari 5/5, 6/196 ÕÍíÍ ÈÎÇÑí¡ 196/6 æ 5/5

- Sahih Muslim ÕÍíÍ ãÓáã 72/2

- Musnad HanbalãÓäÏ ÇÍãÏ Èä ÍäÈá 6/1

-A'lamulnisa ÇÚáÇã ÇáäÓÇÁ 1214/3

-Rasael ÑÓÇÆá ÌÇÍÙ Õ 300

- Tarikh Tabari (history)ÊÇÑíÎ ØÈÑí 202/3

- Sunan Beyhaghi Óää ÈíåÞí 300/6

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The whole issue is that the Sunnis and Shia have both made a big mistake on this:

Sunnis Mistake:- Considering Loving Companions as part of religion

Shias Mistake:- Considering Cursing of (certain) Companions as part of religion

Dis-unity is arising because the two groups concentrate on things that have nothing to do with religion.

If they concentrated on Tawheed, Worshipping God, Dhikr-Allah, Salah, Zakah, Sawm, Good Akhlaaq, Amal-e-Saleh, Charity, Enjoining Good, Forbidding evil, etc.

i.e. if they concentrated on religion, they would be brothers, united.

But instead they concentrate on "people".

The Ahlul-Bayt (as) did not concentrate on people, they concentrated on Religion.

We should concentrate on Islam, not on people.

We should leave discussing people, not leave Religion.

We should embrace Religion, not discussing of people.

Imam Ali (as) said [to paraphrase]

Weak Minds discuss people, Strong minds discuss Issues.

Firstly, as Shi'as we believe that specific curses (Sura al-Lahab)by name or specification (Ziarah al-ashura) have been taught by our religion - through the word of Allah and that of the Infallibles(as). As Shi'as we have no right to second guess that, and at least I dare not call them 'weak-minded', naudbillah thumma naudbillah.

Secondly, forbidding evil, while not distancing ourselves - through acts and words - from evil doers is hypocritical. Ones who proclaimed Islam and then proceeded to doubt the Holy Prophet(pbuh)'s prophethood, insulted him to his face, mentally and physically tortured his progeny, and caused their martyrdom were most certainly evil doers.

Thus: O my Allah, let the curse, I call down on the head of the first tyrant stick like a leech; and stay put forever on the first, then the second, the third and the fourth. O my Allah, damn and call down evil on the fifth, Yazid son of Mua'wiyah...

@)

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This is an open notice to our brothers and sisters who are active participants in the Sunni/Shia forum; Sister Aliya and I, as much as we want to, can't be everywhere at once, and sometimes, some posts go under the radar and can not verify everything posted is accordance with Shiachat rules.

After a long discussion with some Mods; the Shia/Sunni board is suffering the intellectuality and respected needed to carry on 'interfaith'/'inter-sect' dialogues and the main reason for that is the constant usage of slander, character assassinations and fraud brought in to many threads.

As a result; we want every participating member on this board to report any rule violations like cursing, slander, attacking our twelve Imams, attacking Abu Bakr, Umar, and Othman. The same rule applies to the wives of the Prophet; attacking them in anyway is unacceptable, calling them names in anyway that violates the rules is unacceptable.

Presenting any false/fraud references and documents will be deleted and the presenter warned; discussing fitna related topics like 'Shias believe the Qur'an is incomplete' will not be tolerated as well; the thread will be locked or deleted and the poster warned.

What do you all think? What do you think Sisiter Wilaya? We want to strictly monitor this board; it's getting out of hand and we need serious reform.

P.S.

When anyone reports a violation; please provide the name of the member, a link to the thread, the post's number and a quotation.

I would like to apply these guidelines as soon as possible; so I need everyone's feed back. Lets keep this professional; anyone who tries to start anything, or tries to provoke others will be severely dealt with.

(salam)

to curse people respected by our Sunnites brothers, is absolutely prohibited on these forums.

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(salam)

to curse people respected by our Sunnites brothers, is absolutely prohibited on these forums.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Recitation - and keeping alive the letter and spirit - of Ziarah al Ashura that has been taught by an infallible(as) is important for a Shi'a Muslim even if it is interpreted by some to be violative of rules created by fallibles like himself.

Respecting Yazeed (la) and ones like him, while proclaiming love for the Holy Prophet(pbuh) & his Holy Progeny(as) - who faced tyranny at the hands of Yazeed (la) and ones like him - is a paradox that is for its followers to resolve, not for Shi'a Muslims.

@)

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And again.......

The whole issue is that the Sunnis and Shia have both made a big mistake on this:

Sunnis Mistake:- Considering Loving Companions as part of religion

Shias Mistake:- Considering Cursing of (certain) Companions as part of religion

Both are wrong, and both erraneously conjecturely extrapolate verses to support their claims,

Yet it is clearly evident that Religion is something above that...

It is not to do with "people", it is to do with God.

Dis-unity is arising because the two groups concentrate on things that have nothing to do with religion.

If they concentrated on Tawheed, Worshipping God, Dhikr-Allah, Salah, Zakah, Sawm,

Good Akhlaaq, Amal-e-Saleh, Charity, Enjoining Good, Forbidding evil, etc.

i.e. if they concentrated on religion, they would be brothers, united.

But instead they concentrate on "people".

The Ahlul-Bayt (as) did not concentrate on people, they concentrated on Religion.

We should concentrate on Islam, not on people.

For those Shia who try to mis-use Tabarra (keeping aloof of enemies of God),

as a pretext for cursings.. I'd like to tell you..

If you have a personal issue with anyone who is dead, then you are already aloof.

(Remember, Tabarra is keeping aloof, not cursing)

As for the sunnis, they are our brethren, and there is no tabarra against sunnis.

Sunnis, like us shia, believe in one God, worship one God, believe in the Message and Messenger and Ahkam.

Therefore they are our brothers. Their blood, honor, life and property is as sacred as our own.

So let us not hurt one another, or the feelings thereof,

and instead unite on Religion (Deen of Allah) and leave discussing "people" aside.

This is why I called a particular cousin of mine, "filth" of society, because in his case,

He has left religion (salah, etc), but is the first when it comes to discussing/cursing "people".

We should leave discussing people, not leave Religion.

We should embrace Religion, not discussing of people.

Imam Ali (as) said [to paraphrase]

Weak Minds discuss people, Strong minds discuss Issues.

Was-salaam.

Thank you thank you for your very well written disinformation.

Now I'm not bothered counter-replying to each and every under-statement of yours.

But one thing I found it quite surprising that even though you're conspicuously claiming that the Three are not cursed anywhere; you haven't asked for any proofs to back up my counter-claims whether authentic or unauthentic. :rolleyes:

(salam)

to curse people respected by our Sunnites brothers, is absolutely prohibited on these forums.

LOL LOL LOL....that's all I wanted to convey.

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