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To be a Sayyed...

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(bismillah) (salam)

These are all Persian words that came to Hind during the Persian conquest of Hind. Many Sayyid came to Hind from iran and Iraq incl. my great gr. gr. gr.gr. etc. grand parents.

And Abu Bakr's offspring is NOT sayyid. I don't know why Sunni people believe in this.

Ma Salaam

SBN

(bismillah) (salam)

So it means that the word "Mirza" has a cultural significance and not the religious one.

Also, there is a bulk of people in the sub-continent who are not maternal descendents of the Prophet, yet they call themselves Mirza, i.e.; specially those of Central Asian or Turkish/Iranian origin. This title has also been used in the sub-continet as a sign of respect, in the context where titles like chaudhray,khan,sardar,etc are used.

I don't think Sunnis believe that Abu Bakr's offsprings are Sayyeds. They just call him and others "Sayyeduna", which is out of respect only.

Thanks

WS

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Guest Shia by nature

(bismillah) (salam)

So it means that the word "Mirza" has a cultural significance and not the religious one

Maybe in Arabic and Persian they don't but in urdu they might.

Also, there is a bulk of people in the sub-continent who are not maternal descendents of the Prophet, yet they call themselves Mirza, i.e.; specially those of Central Asian or Turkish/Iranian origin.

Those in Lucknow are normally Mirzas. These Mirzas are wealthy people and they took this title so to be close to those who weren't sayyids but Mirza due to their mothers. It is a long story but historians trace it to the respect these people gave to Sayyid and Non Sayyids. Also keep in mind that 99% mirzas from lucknow are Shia.

don't think Sunnis believe that Abu Bakr's offsprings are Sayyeds. They just call him and others "Sayyeduna", which is out of respect only.

Nope. The sayyids I know here, all are from Abu Bakr Siddique and they claim to be sayyid.

May Allah Guide them all.

Ma Salaam

SBN

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(bismillah) (salam)

Maybe in Arabic and Persian they don't but in urdu they might.

Who are "they"?

Those in Lucknow are normally Mirzas. These Mirzas are wealthy people and they took this title so to be close to those who weren't sayyids but Mirza due to their mothers. It is a long story but historians trace it to the respect these people gave to Sayyid and Non Sayyids. Also keep in mind that 99% mirzas from lucknow are Shia.

I didn't know that the Mirzas originally from Lucknow are majority Shia. Thanks for adding it my knowledge.

Also, the descendents of Mughals, also call themselves Mirza. i.e.; 'Mughal Mirza' and they do not claim to be the maternal descendents of the Prophet (pbuh)

Nope. The sayyids I know here, all are from Abu Bakr Siddique and they claim to be sayyid.

Their claim is simply wrong. How can they be from Abu Bakr and still be Sayyeds in a sense we are discussing. Strange enough..!

All of my maternal side is descendent of Abu Bakr, properly though, of Muhammad bin Abu Bakr who was one of the companians of Imam Ali (as) and was martyred by Muawiya and co. Also, my maternal side is pure Shia for generations due to their grand father who was loyal to Islam and Ahl-e-bait. Good luck!

Thanks again

WS

Edited by Jibran Haider

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(bismillah) (salam)

Who are "they"?

The Arabs and Persians. They don't use it due to it beaing a cultural phenomenon. It does have a meaning.

Also, the descendents of Mughals, also call themselves Mirza. i.e.; 'Mughal Mirza' and they do not claim to be the maternal descendents of the Prophet

In urdu Mirza also means someone with alot of money. A wealthy man. That is why we say in Urdu: "Arre miyan... paise kama rahe ho... kya Mirza banne challe?"

Their claim is simply wrong. How can they be from Abu Bakr and still be Sayyeds in a sense we are discussing. Strange enough..!

Ask them.

Ma Salaam

SBN

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Brother SpIzo,

Please kindly give an explanation to this. How and from When did the Sayyeds were referred to as 'Tabatabai', if patermal and 'Mirza', if maternal descendents of the Prophet. (pbuh)

I don't know how these terms came about, bro.

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(bismillah) (salam)

I'll appreciate If someone gives a clear explanation of the terms like "Mirza" and "Tabatabai" used for maternal descendents and Paternal+maternal one, respectively..

WS

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I'll appreciate If someone gives a clear explanation of the terms like "Mirza"

Mirza= a person who's mother is Sayeda HOWEVER their father is NOT Sayed.

I think its clear.

It was VERY important to find a name (which is now 'mirza') to those who have a father not sayed but a mother sayed, so we'll be able to distinguish. Remember as I explained previously there are shari3a laws that applies on being a Sayed(i.e, father is Sayed,in other words he is from bani hashem). If you still dont know why it is important to NOT call a Mirza "sayed" please read carefully both my 2 previous posts.

(salam)

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Mirza= a person who's mother is Sayeda HOWEVER their father is NOT Sayed.

I think its clear.

It was VERY important to find a name (which is now 'mirza') to those who have a father not sayed but a mother sayed, so we'll be able to distinguish. Remember as I explained previously there are shari3a laws that applies on being a Sayed(i.e, father is Sayed,in other words he is from bani hashem). If you still dont know why it is important to NOT call a Mirza "sayed" please read carefully both my 2 previous posts.

(salam)

(salam)

Sister,

I guess I failed to bring my point. . .

I totally agree with what you have said previously as well as here.

My question was that. . . is there any religious signifance of the word "Mirza" to describe maternal descendents of the Prophet? Or it is just a cultural noman clature? Also, When did the word "Mirza" first used for the said group? (Same for tabatabai, i.e.; describing najeeb-ut-tarafen Sayyeds)

Thanks

WS

Edited by Jibran Haider

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From the Official Website of Ayatullah Khamenei

To Be a Sayyid

Q: My mother is a Sayyidah. Do I qualify as a Sayyid? What is the difference between a Sayyid from the father's side and that from the mother's side?

A: Although, descendants of The Holy Prophet through their mother also considered as his descendants, the criterion for being a Sayyid - as far as Shar'i rulings are concerned - is paternal relationship.

*****

First part tells me that a person whose mother is a sayyedah is also a sayyed, and the other part tells me he is not...combining both tells me that Sayyeds are exception to this Shar'i rule. It means my mother is a sayyed, though paternally she is a descendant of Abu Bakar. btw, it is the first time I've heard this...

Where I'm wrong?

Please help....

if u dont mind me asking how did u trace ur lineage back to Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra)? i didnt know ppl kept track of that.

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the first part does not tell you that a person whose mother is a sayyidah is also a sayyid. it says that this person is simply a descendent of the Prophet. only the descendents from the father's side are considered sayyids according to shariah.

What is the importance of all this?

Peace

Satyaban

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if u dont mind me asking how did u trace ur lineage back to Hazrat Abu Bakr (ra)? i didnt know ppl kept track of that.

(salam)

I am not a descendent of Abu Bakr though my mum is. (Siddiqi family)

My maternal grandfather had a full record of the family tree which goes back to Muhammad (ra) bin Abu Bakr, the immediate son of the first ruler, who was, a companion and staunch supporter of Imam Ali (as), against his father including those two who succeeded him, and was martyred My Muawiya and Co. when he was an official representative of Imam Ali (as) in Egypt.

Hope the synopsis of this historical episode would do. . .

WS

What is the importance of all this?

Peace

Satyaban

To understand this, one has to be a faithful Muslim. . .

. . .and peace be with you. . .

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(salam)

I'v generally understood the naming convention as

Seyyed "insert name here" to be used for people whose father's name also followed the Seyyed "insert name here" naming convention.

If the mother followed the Seyyedeh "insert name here" naming convention and she married a non-Seyyed man, thus the title of "Mirza" was given to her children with that father.

Otherwise..

If your name follows the naming convention of "insert name here" Siddique/Siddiqui etc. You are a descendent of Abu Bakr

If your name follows the naming convention of "insert name here" Farooqui/Farooqi etc. You are a descendent of Omar

If your name follows the naming convention of "insert name here" Osmani etc. You are a descendent of Uthman

If your name follows the naming convention of "insert name here" Alavi. You are a descendent of Imam Ali but not Fatemeh (but one of his other wives).

If your name follows the naming convention of "insert name here" Abbasi. You are a descendent Abbas ibn Abd-al-Muttalib.

If your name follows the naming convention of "insert name here" Safavi/Safavian. You are a descendent of one of the Safavid monarchs.

Going further onwards

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed ""insert name here" Hassani/Hashemi/Tabatabai/Mujtabal; you are a Seyyed via Imam Hassan.

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Hossein/Hosseini; you are a Seyyed via Imam Hossien.

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Abidi; you are a descendent of Imam Ali-Zainulabideen.

If your name follows the namign convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Zaidi; you are a descendant of Zaid (who was the son of Imam Ali Zainulabideen). I suppose technically all Zaidi's would be Abidi's as well.

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Baqeri, Baqri, Bagheri; you are a Seyyed via Imam Mohammad Baqr/Bagher.

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Jafari; you are are a Seyyed via Imam Jafar Sadegh

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Mousavi, Kazemi; your a Seyyed via Imam Musa Kazem.

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Rezavi, Rizvi; you are a Seyyed via Imam Reza

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Taqavi; you are a Seyyed via Imam Taqi.

If your name follows the naming convention of Seyyed "insert name here" Naqvi/Naqavi/Naqi; you are a Seyyed via Imam Naqi.

Edited by phknrocket1k

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What is the importance of all this?

this issue becomes relevant in certain matters of jurisprudence. sayyids aren't allowed to accept sadaqah (charity), while there is a certain portion of khums (something like income tax) that is specifically for them.

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Right.

All who descended from Prophet (sawa) are Sayyids,

But common code of transfer of lineage name goes through father's side.

Thus the common code that sayyed is paternal after Fatima (as).

However, all children paternal / maternal -

will be mahram of Bibi Fatema (as) and Imam Ali (as).

W/s.

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this issue becomes relevant in certain matters of jurisprudence. sayyids aren't allowed to accept sadaqah (charity), while there is a certain portion of khums (something like income tax) that is specifically for them.

one correction Sayyids are allowed to take Sadaqah from Sayyids...they are not allowed to take Sadaqah from Non Syeds...

But i wonder if Mirzas are considered the descendents of Holy Prophet(SAWA) then what is the ruling regarding the khums and Sadaqah for them ? Is the ruling same as in case of non Sayyids.. ?

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one correction Sayyids are allowed to take Sadaqah from Sayyids...they are not allowed to take Sadaqah from Non Syeds...

But i wonder if Mirzas are considered the descendents of Holy Prophet(SAWA) then what is the ruling regarding the khums and Sadaqah for them ? Is the ruling same as in case of non Sayyids.. ?

One point of the summary of this whole discussions is that taking Khums is not allowed, though sadqa is, for those who are not Sayyeds but 'Mirzas'

As on Sayyeds taking sadqa from Sayyeds. . .I never heard of it before. . .

Hope someone may give an explanation or affirm. . .

WS

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Guest Shia by nature

(bismillah) (salam)

^^

bro. Sayyid SIRF Sayyid ka sadqa le sakte hain. Ghair Sayyid se Sayyid agar sadqa le to woh haram hai.

Ma Salam

SBN

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Guest Shia by nature

(bismillah) (salam)

^^^

She gave birth to Imam Ali's children.

Ma Salam

SBN

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Your saying decendents of Ali are Imam's since the male gender has such dominance ? but then Why consider them Syed of Mohammed (pbuh) if Fatima's bloodline a.s wasn't a relavant issue.

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(bismillah) (salam)

^^

fatima's blood line is of most importance but only hers. Shes the foundation along with Ali (as). But from there it is the male that takes over.

Ma Salam

SBN

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(bismillah) (salam)

^^

fatima's blood line is of most importance but only hers. Shes the foundation along with Ali (as). But from there it is the male that takes over.

Ma Salam

SBN

Of course, it is ^^ true, shia.rose. . .

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But from there it is the male that takes over.

Isn't that how it usually is, Anyway I don't have any more or less respect for sayeds as I do for anybody else they are not more special nor more pious, Its just another way for discrimination to occur, As far as the bloodline thing goes

33:40: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

Since we know the Quran is not just adaptable to the certian time and place but its adaptable for all time and every place as a guidance not a storybook, then we can establish a stronger meaning for this verse.

Oh and by the way one of the miracles I have fount true about the Quran is that one verse could have three meanings all benificial but not contradictory. That is why the task of recreating even an ayat like in the Quran is simply impossible.

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(bismillah) (salam)

Isn't that how it usually is, Anyway I don't have any more or less respect for sayeds as I do for anybody else they are not more special nor more pious, Its just another way for discrimination to occur, As far as the bloodline thing goes

Let me ask you this: Do you follow a Marja? If you do I suggest that you ask him about being Sayyid and the racism thing.

According to Al Modarassi (my Marja) a SAYYID who once was rich and lived a nice life, if this SAYYID suddenly becomes poor, the community should try to help him out so that he again can live as he used to. This is for SAYYIDS.

Ma SALAM

SBN

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(bismillah) (salam)

Let me ask you this: Do you follow a Marja? If you do I suggest that you ask him about being Sayyid and the racism thing.

According to Al Modarassi (my Marja) a SAYYID who once was rich and lived a nice life, if this SAYYID suddenly becomes poor, the community should try to help him out so that he again can live as he used to. This is for SAYYIDS.

Ma SALAM

SBN

It is also said that: If there are to people who are in dire need of money or help. . .and if one is Sayyid. . .you should help the Sayyid first. . .

The respect is certainly due to the relation that person has with the Prophet and Ahlalbayt (as). . though its surely strictly not because of his piousness, if he has any. . .

WS

Edited by Jibran Haider

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According to Al Modarassi (my Marja) a SAYYID who once was rich and lived a nice life, if this SAYYID suddenly becomes poor, the community should try to help him out so that he again can live as he used to.

Are you serious, Well I guess since the all knowing scholar says it.. it must be true (sarcastic)

lemme guess Al Modarassi is a Sayed?.. Anyway look at how absurd this is, I HAVE met syed's that were close to kufr so should the alchoholic sayed get money while the momin mother of 4 doesn't get it? Doesnt that seem to be a little ignorant?

Don't think for a second that your bloodline makes you any more special than anybody else.. You make you special and the wonderful things you do for humanity god willing.

Issues such as this that are such a significant part of our faith is hard to push aside and just leave it up to the scholars to know. Part of Islam is aqquiring knowledge.. Isn't it?

Edited by shiarose

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(bismillah)

Being Sayyed doesn't make you more of a Muslim than anybody else. I don't know why a lot of people use the excuse of being sayyed to get their own way for example, some sayyeds have made their own rules such as "sayyed woman is not allowed to get married to a non-sayyed man". They use their plight of being sayyed to control women. This is wrong. At the end of the day, if a person is bad then the excuse of being sayyed would not certainly take him out of hell, for it is Allah (swt) who knows best.

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Are you serious, Well I guess since the all knowing scholar says it.. it must be true (sarcastic)

lemme guess Al Modarassi is a Sayed?.. Anyway look at how absurd this is, I HAVE met syed's that were close to kufr so should the alchoholic sayed get money while the momin mother of 4 doesn't get it? Doesnt that seem to be a little ignorant?

Don't think for a second that your bloodline makes you any more special than anybody else.. You make you special and the wonderful things you do for humanity god willing.

Issues such as this that are such a significant part of our faith is hard to push aside and just leave it up to the scholars to know. Part of Islam is aqquiring knowledge.. Isn't it?

(salam)

Good point indeed. . .

I have read in some scholar's fatawa book that if two people need help and you can only help one of them and you know that first one is more pious than the second. . .and the second person will waste money in doing haram acts or in acquiring haram stuff (liquor etc), then you should not help the bad person even if he is Sayyed.

WS

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Guest Shia by nature

(bismillah) (salam)

Are you serious, Well I guess since the all knowing scholar says it.. it must be true (sarcastic)

lemme guess Al Modarassi is a Sayed?.. Anyway look at how absurd this is, I HAVE met syed's that were close to kufr so should the alchoholic sayed get money while the momin mother of 4 doesn't get it? Doesnt that seem to be a little ignorant?

Don't think for a second that your bloodline makes you any more special than anybody else.. You make you special and the wonderful things you do for humanity god willing.

Issues such as this that are such a significant part of our faith is hard to push aside and just leave it up to the scholars to know. Part of Islam is aqquiring knowledge.. Isn't it?

many scholars say this. If you want to educate them, then contact them. Don't come here giving me your personal opinions. I never said that a SAYYID whos a drunkard should be helped instead of a true momin. What I said was that if both a pious we should help the SAYYID. If you disagree debate them. Dont be mad at me.

ma Salam

SBN

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Don't come here giving me your personal opinions. I never said that a SAYYID whos a drunkard should be helped instead of a true momin.

I am sorry if I misunderstood but you didn't specify that the sayed should be momin. Now we have another story,

<BTW, in case you haven't noticed.. its called a discussion forum *where people generally give their "personal opinion".>

Furthermore I hope all Muslims seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave don't accept blindly without research insh Allah. I am trying to do that >and most likely I will email a marja concerning this issue, until then my opinion will remain that sayeds are no more or less important than any other Muslim.

Edited by shiarose

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Guest Shia by nature

(bismillah) (salam)

^^

The fact is that a TRUE SAYYID should be cared of instead of a TRUE non Sayyid. Whether or not this is discriminating, you should ask an Aalim.

Ma Salam

SBN

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