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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is the incident of the door true?

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(salam)

i have an answer to your question

remember the incident of maryam, how did Allah expose the hypocritical jewish priests and leaders ? using Maryam (as)

they accused her of her modesty and Isa (as) spoke saying i am abdAllah

now the woman in islam is a very important subject

she is the honour of islam the flag and a symbol of chastity and modesty , she has been used in islam to expose hypocrites and oppressors all the time

You think Ali couldnt go open it , Ali let her open it as an order from Allah to expose omar ...

this attack on the honour and flag of islam , truly exposes the true self of the opressor how far he would go in his opression and indecency

even later on as history tells us , Fatima went to the people and abu bakr was there , she was complaining of what was done to her , abu bakr protested in disease , what is wrong with Ali always sending his woman.... the opresion against woman and accusations , is the best way to show opressiion thats why islam doesnt allow woman and children to be taken as asra' , and everything is woman and children first

same reason Imam Husain *as* took his family to the battle in karbala , there is a philosophy behind taking women, and exposing tyrants using them ,... women have played a major role in islam .... which is not noted by all .... unlike we have some brothers who say , it was a stupid move for Imam Husain to take his family (nauzobillah) , but the speech of zainab ,them taking her prisoner , and the opression exposes the tyrants and opressors they were

get the flow ?

thats what we shias believe in

i have brought this straight from Ayatullah Mohamed Sanad (teacher in qum) i was not told anything about taqiyah ... this is what i was told ...

(salam)

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What do i not understand from Strawberry and baqar is why Imam Ali did not do anything? Why did he have to practice taqiyah?

Who told you he was doing taqyyia ? Exercise of restraint has nothing to do with taqyyia. You are wrongly informed, my friend.

And restraint, of course, is the sunat of prophets and imams. Besides, it was a very delicate period in history. History would have not missed the opportunity to impute love for power as his motive for responding to Omar's actions.

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Nice answers :)

Ali ibn Abi Talib never reacted out of personal anger. His responses were always done for the good of the Islamic ummah. He didn't want more fitnahs breaking out.

Plus, the Prophet (pbuh) had already told him what he will suffer and ordered him to be patient. I don't have the sources for it..I need to search for this hadith.

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(salam)

This is what I found:

Al-Saduq has narrated, through his isnad which ends with Ali (A.S.) that he said, “While I, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husain (A.S.) were with the Messenger of Allah (A.S.), he turned to us and broke into tears. I asked him, `What is wrong, O Messenger of Allah?’ He said, `I weep for the time when someone will deal a sword’s blow to your head and when Fatima’s cheek is slapped.’”

Al-Saduq, Al-Amali, p. 118. Al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 28, p. 51.

Also:

The situation could not tolerate stirring feelings and emotions. Rather, there was a need for toleration, for calming excited feelings so that matters might not explode, and so that he might not disobey the Messenger of Allah (A.S.) who ordered him to remain silent and not to confront them with arms because doing so would weaken the creed and prepare the environment for reneging from Islam as the Commander of the Faithful (A.S.) said in Nahjul Balagha and elsewhere.

Souce: http://almujtaba.com/books/tragedy/

can it justify the hadiths that your 12th imam will return and reserect the first 2 calipahs and give them falatities ?

I've never heard of that. :unsure: Have you got any sources confirming this hadith or have you heard it from another Shia?

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(salam)

yes strawberry momina , ive read that if im not mistaken as , he will ressurect them , and hang them upside down and flog them , in medina

doubt its authentic though, dont know a source

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(salam) (bismillah)

This incident if looked at even by nasbis, it is recorded in amongst the earliest and most authentic hadith, history books. Unfortunately nasbis mostly haven't heard of their real authentic books like the musannaf of ibn abi shaiba. They have fallen to such ignorance that they try to scratch things out of the most authentic of the most fabricated books known as Bukhari. I have done reasearch about this and found that it was democratically voted as the most authentic book. So they base alot of their beliefs and opinions upon democratic decisions. That is why alot of the 'infallable sahaba' they believe in are 'infallable' to them. Because nasbiism is a democratic system.

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I personally do believe the event happened and this is because the story is so widespread amongst the most learned of Scholars and as far as I am aware the only actual Marja (that I am aware of) who has publically announced the story to be false in his opinion is Ayatollah Fadhlalla of Lebanon.

However the Sufi Sheikh (Shia) who I follow, Sheikh Fadhllallah Haeri of Iraq also believes the story to be false, however I'm not sure if he could be taken as someone in a position to say whether it is or not.

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This never happened, its a lie and may Allah curse the liars.

HaiderKarar (ra) would never have let that happen,..even a dog defends its family and this is what you accuse Ali (ra) of not doing?? Akhaas alayk!!!!!!!!! Ali (ra) surely would have cut down anyone who dared try such a thing.

Secondly,..where were all the muslims? This claim is beyond stupid because it would require the negligence and complicity of every muslim in medina. If this is true then that would mean sayidna Muhamad (pbuh) failed in his mission to change the hearts of the muslims and teach them justice.

**^ :mad:...astagfirullah...this incident is very true indeed, truth hurts akwa..especially when it condemns your precious khaliph**

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I personally do believe the event happened and this is because the story is so widespread amongst the most learned of Scholars and as far as I am aware the only actual Marja (that I am aware of) who has publically announced the story to be false in his opinion is Ayatollah Fadhlalla of Lebanon.

However the Sufi Sheikh (Shia) who I follow, Sheikh Fadhllallah Haeri of Iraq also believes the story to be false, however I'm not sure if he could be taken as someone in a position to say whether it is or not.

Brother, I would like to correct you on one thing, Ayatullah Fadlullah does not say its false, he says the ahadith are WEAK. There is a huge difference between saying something is weak, and false :)

fee iman illah

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I personally do believe the event happened and this is because the story is so widespread amongst the most learned of Scholars and as far as I am aware the only actual Marja (that I am aware of) who has publically announced the story to be false in his opinion is Ayatollah Fadhlalla of Lebanon.

However the Sufi Sheikh (Shia) who I follow, Sheikh Fadhllallah Haeri of Iraq also believes the story to be false, however I'm not sure if he could be taken as someone in a position to say whether it is or not.

Brother, I would like to correct you on one thing, Ayatullah Fadlullah does not say its false, he says the ahadith are WEAK. There is a huge difference between saying something is weak, and false :)

fee iman illah

Salams

I do belive that this incident in True.....May Allah(swt) curse the Enemies of the Ahlulbait(as).....especially the killers of Janabe Fatimah Zehra(sa).....

Let me say this.......Classifying a hadees as week is the first step towards rejecting it(if rejected).........

wassalam

wassalam

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(salam)

id like to ask if you know the basis on which the hadith was deemed weak ? and the logic behind it ?

the hadiths do not actually mentioned if Imam Ali saw the incident happen , or was just in the other room ....

the only sure witness of the incident who could testify is Fizza (ra) , that does not fit in with the qurans laws of witnesses ...

did you keep that in mind ?

i am not denying it happened , i am simply showing the several ways of seeing it ....

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(salam)

id like to ask if you know the basis on which the hadith was deemed weak ? and the logic behind it ?

the hadiths do not actually mentioned if Imam Ali saw the incident happen , or was just in the other room ....

the only sure witness of the incident who could testify is Fizza (ra) , that does not fit in with the qurans laws of witnesses ...

did you keep that in mind ?

i am not denying it happened , i am simply showing the several ways of seeing it ....

Salam

There are many Traditions from Imam Ali(as) which confirm the incident....Will quote only one here...

Ahmed ibn al-Khasab, citing Ja`fer ibn Muhammed al-Mufaddal quoting Muhammed ibn Sinan al-Zahiri quoting `Abdullah ibn `Abd ar-Rahman al-Asam quoting Madah ibn Haran ibn Sa`d saying, “I heard the father of al-Tufayl, namely `amir ibn Wa’ilah citing the Commander of the Faithful (A.S.) saying to `Omer, among other things, the following:

It is the fire that you ignited at the door of my house in order to burn me and to burn Fatima (A.S.), daughter of the Messenger of Allah (A.S.), and burn my sons, al-Hasan (A.S.) and al-Husain (A.S.) and also burn my daughters Zainab and Umm Kulthum..., etc.”

Ref: Al-Hidaya al-Kubra, p. 163.

Also any hadees which has only a single narrator is classified as Al-mufrad or al-wahid..and not as Weak Hadees...

Wassalam

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(salam)

like i said , it does not say he was witnessing the hit or not .... either way is possible

salams

Will quote only 2 more hadees from many such hadees:

1) SALIM ibn Qais has narrated saying that `Omer ibn al-Khattab once fined all his governors half of their salaries, exempting Qunfath al-`Adawi from such a fine, and he was one of such governors. He even returned to him what he had taken away from him, the sum of twenty thousand dirhams. Nor did he deduct the tilth, nor half the tilth. Aban said that SALIM has said, “I met Ali (A.S.) and asked him about what he thought regarding what `Omer had done. He said, `Do you know why he (`Omer) exempted Qunfath and did not fine him or deduct anything from his salary?’ I said, `No.’ He said, `Because he is the one who hit Fatima, peace and blessings of Allah be upon her, with the whip when she came to act as a barrier between me and them. So she died, peace and blessings of Allah be upon her, and there was still a mark on her wrist like a bracelet.’”

REF: Al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 30, pp. 302-03 and the book of Salam ibn Qais, Vol. 2, pp. 674-75. Al-`Awalim, Vol. 11, p. 413.

2) Muhammed ibn `Abdullah ibn Ja`fer al-Himyari quotes his father quoting Ali ibn Muhammed ibn Salim quoting Muhammed ibn Khalid quoting `Abdullah ibn Hammad al-Basri quoting `Abdullah ibn Ali ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Asam quoting Hammad ibn `Othman quoting Aba `Abdullah (A.S.) saying,

When the Prophet (A.S.) was taken for the night journey, it was said to him that Allah would test him in three instances. So the angel kept counting them till he said, “As for your daughter Fatima (A.S.), she will be oppressed and deprived and her right will be confiscated, the inheritance which you will leave her. And she will be hit while she is pregnant; insults and humiliation will affect her, then she will miscarry what is in her womb and be beaten, and she will die from such beating... The first to raise a complaint against his killer (on the Day of Judgment) will be Muhassan son of Ali (A.S.), then Qunfath and his fellow (Abu Bakr) will be brought...”

REF: Kamil al-Ziyarat, pp. 232-35. Al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 28, pp. 62-64. Refer also to Vol. 53, p. 23 of the same. `Awalim al-`Ulam, Vol. 11, p. 398. Al-Majlisi, Jala’ al-`Uyan, Vol. 1, pp. 184-86

wassalam

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(salam) ,

you do not seem to get the point .. this hadith doesnt say if he was present there , and if she got in his way , it does not mean literally because we know he wasnt with her at the door ....

if you want to keep posting hadiths , try to find one which proves Ali (as) to have been an eye witness

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(salam) ,

you do not seem to get the point .. this hadith doesnt say if he was present there , and if she got in his way , it does not mean literally because we know he wasnt with her at the door ....

if you want to keep posting hadiths , try to find one which proves Ali (as) to have been an eye witness

salams

The hadees that i have posted testify the authenticity of the incident........Just a question.....On what basis has Imam Ali (as) must have said the above.........? Is he saying something that he has not seen???

Although i am doing my research on this aspect.....

I have couple of things to say...........

1) The Holy Prophet (pbuh) had given the title of Zu-shahadatain to one of his companion[not sure abt his name] so he alone was sufficiant as a witness...... So in this case the Quranic law is not applicable to him......

[i have this in mind that the One who has naratted the incident of the door is Janabe Fizza and also know her status and position as compared to others....]

2) The tradition of Hadees-e-Kisa has also a single narattor i.e. Janabe Fatimah(sa)... So is this also to be considered unauthentic?????

What i want to say is that the Quranic Laws do have exceptions!!

Wassalam

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(salam)

in shia ahadith , if there is an infallible within the narration , it is considered correct ...

now keep this in mind , Ali (as) was hiding in his home ... hiding , would be not stepping in the main entrance ... and that would be where the door was ... he was also having a meeting with them , which again , wouldnt be in a position

and Ali (as) doesnt havee to see it personally to narrate it ....Fatima (as) word would be more than enough ... and again , shia ulema (not sure if all )believe that it was an order from Allah to Ali (as) to send fatima to the door , so again he doesnt have to see it to know ....

and there are many versions of hadith al kisa , including few , which are considered unauthentic by some ulema....

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(salam)

in shia ahadith , if there is an infallible within the narration , it is considered correct ...

salams..

Below is the narattion of Janabe Fatimah Zehra (sa) regarding the incident that took place..

al-Zahra’ (A.S.) detailed what she had to go through. Among what she said was the following:

“... Then they sent to our house Qunfath accompanied by `Omer ibn al-Khattab and Khalid ibn al-Walid in order to get my cousin Ali (A.S.) to the saqifa of Bana Sa`idah for their lost fealty, but he would not go out to meet them, being busy carrying out the will of the Messenger of Allah (A.S.) and with his wives, with compiling the Qur’an and with the repayment of eighty thousand dirhams which he (A.S.) had instructed him to pay on his behalf: the price of equipment and of debt. They collected plenty of firewood at our door. Then they brought a flame to set it to fire and to burn us. I stood at the door’s knob and pleaded to them in the Name of Allah to leave us alone and to come to our aid. `Omer took the whip from the hand of Qunfath, slave of Abu Bakr, and hit me with it on the wrist. The whip twisted itself around my wrist, leaving a mark like a bracelet on it. He kicked the door with his foot. Ali (A.S.) shut it back, and I was pregnant. I fell on my face as the fire kept burning, parching my face. He slapped me with his hand, causing my ear-ring to fall on the ground into bits and pieces. Labor overtook me, so I miscarried al-Muhassan who was killed without having committed any crime. Is this a nation that blesses me?! Allah and His Messenger disowned them and I, too, disowned them.”

The Commander of the Faithful (A.S.) carried out her will. He did not inform anyone about her demise. At al-Baqi`, he dug up forty graves during the night wherein he buried Fatima (A.S.).

Then the Muslims, having come to know about the death and burial of Fatima (A.S.), went to the Commander of the Faithful (A.S.) to offer their condolences. They said, “O Brother of the Messenger of Allah (A.S.)! Order us to prepare her for burial and to dig up her grave.” He (A.S.) said, “She has already been buried, joining her father (A.S.).” They said, “We belong to Allah, and to Him shall we return. How can the daughter of our Prophet Muhammed (A.S.), his only offspring, die and we do not perform her funeral prayers?! This is truly very serious!” He (A.S.) said, “Suffices you what you have committed against Allah, the Messenger of Allah (A.S.) and his Progeny. By Allah! I would not violate her will which she entrusted to me, that is, that none of you should perform her funeral prayers, and there is no blame on one who carries out someone’s will.” Those folks shook the dust off their clothes and said, “We have to perform the funeral prayers for the daughter of the Messenger of Allah (A.S.).” They immediately went to al-Baqi` and found forty graves freshly dug up. They could not tell which one of them was hers. People exchanged blame and accusations and said, “You did not witness the demise of the daughter of your Prophet, nor did you perform the funeral prayers for her, and now you do not even know here her grave is so you may visit it!”

Abu Bakr said, “Let a number of trustworthy Muslims dig up these graves till you find her grave so that we may perform her funeral prayers and visit it.”

The Commander of the Faithful (A.S.) heard about it, so he went out of his house angrily. His face was red with anger, his eyes burning, his cheeks puffed up, and he was carrying on his hand his yellow outer garment which he never put it on except on an ill-fated day. He was using his sword, Thul-Fiqar, like a walking stick till he reached al-Baqi`. Prior to his arrival, news reached people that he was going there. A warner said to them, “Here is Ali (A.S.) coming as you can see swearing by Allah that no brick of these graves will be moved from its place except that he will let his sword do its business against the unlucky from among this nation. People fled away in hordes

REF: Al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 30, pp. 348-50, citing Irshad al-Qulab by al-Daylami.

wassalam

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(salam)

The whip twisted itself around my wrist, leaving a mark like a bracelet on it. He kicked the door with his foot. Ali (A.S.) shut it back, and I was pregnant. I fell on my face as the fire kept burning, parching my face. He slapped me with his hand, causing my ear-ring to fall on the ground into bits and pieces. Labor overtook me, so I miscarried al-Muhassan who was killed without having committed any crime. Is this a nation that blesses me?! Allah and His Messenger disowned them and I, too, disowned them.”

how is that possible when Ali (as) shut the door ?

or am i missunderstanding ?

error ....?

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(salam)

how is that possible when Ali (as) shut the door ?

or am i missunderstanding ?

error ....?

salams

Believe me..........Such questions can be raised on each and every hadees......

i dont find it necessary to give justification to any one........Before someone asks me where in the Quran this incident is mentioned......

Allah(swt) sys in the Holy Quran:

"Such are they whose hearts and ears and eyes Allah hath sealed . And such are the heedless" 16:108

wassalam

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(salam)

you have no answer to my question , so you choose another path , to make it seem that you are fed up and couldnt be bothered asking ...

this hadith is wrong , unless Ali (as) slapped her (nauzobillah)

or can any1 give any other justification >?

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(salam)

you have no answer to my question , so you choose another path , to make it seem that you are fed up and couldnt be bothered asking ...

this hadith is wrong , unless Ali (as) slapped her (nauzobillah)

or can any1 give any other justification >?

salams

Read again.... 'He' is not refering to Imam Ali(as)....

It is not necessary that all Narration includes all the events that took place...

Also it is not necessary that the events as mentioned in the above narration be asper the sequence of actual occurance.....thats yr assumption..

Mer'aj of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is a very good example... If you study the Narrations..in it you will find about the Holy Porphet (pbuh) visiting the 4th heaven and then directly about him being on the 7th heaven without mentioning about him passing through the 5th and 6th heaven.... So will it be said that this narration is also false??

wassalam

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(salam)

well , lets think of it , Ali (as) shut the door , then they opened it , and slapped her ? and he was at the door ? let them open it again after he just shut it ?

Sayeda Fatima (as) , would not forget to mention an important detail , and leave us in a controversial situation ....

did you check the isnad of this hadith ?

we know bihar al anwar is mostly aunauthentic ...

and how did it reach us today if bihar al anwar has been compiled ages after the incident ?

every detail is important

i do not deny the incident ... but as i said earlier ... most hadiths do not complete the occurances ... either by quran ... or by error as in this one ....

ps - there is no possible way you can say here , HE refers to who , as in the previous sentence Ali (as) name was used ,and would be used again

example - fulan denied the incident and cursed at me . Muhib Ali heard of this and brought sources of the incident. He drank tea

...

the sentence with the he has no relation with the previous 2 , so who is the "he" ? Muhib Ali or fulan ?

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(salam)

well , lets think of it , Ali (as) shut the door , then they opened it , and slapped her ? and he was at the door ? let them open it again after he just shut it ?

Sayeda Fatima (as) , would not forget to mention an important detail , and leave us in a controversial situation ....

Salams

Thats yr personal understanding, and not that of everyone....so will not comment on that!!

did you check the isnad of this hadith ?

we know bihar al anwar is mostly aunauthentic ...

and how did it reach us today if bihar al anwar has been compiled ages after the incident ?

every detail is important

i do not deny the incident ... but as i said earlier ... most hadiths do not complete the occurances ... either by quran ... or by error as in this one ....

Infact it was you who said that the Hadees is Unauthentic??

Also i will keep a check to find out on how many hadees is this applied!!!!

It would have been better if you had said that u accepted the incident instead of saying "i do not deny the incident "/

ps - there is no possible way you can say here , HE refers to who , as in the previous sentence Ali (as) name was used ,and would be used again

example - fulan denied the incident and cursed at me . Muhib Ali heard of this and brought sources of the incident. He drank tea

...

the sentence with the he has no relation with the previous 2 , so who is the "he" ? Muhib Ali or fulan ?

It seems to me that you are just making assumptions so as to find loop holes in the Narration so that u can reject it.........[u have already said that the hadees is incorrect]

I Hope u r not defending Fazlullah

The Matter of Fadhlullah and his claim is very much clear to me [from where all this started].......... You could do more research and find out for your self....

This is just for my info: Could you pls name other maraja/scholors who also claim that this incident is weak! [needless to say that with proof]

wassalam

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(salam)

i do not know any other ulema , neither have i checked , nor have i seen Sayed Fadlulahs official statement in denying this incident ...

as i was told , the reasons behind Sayed Fadlulahs but a regular person(which doesnt mean its correct) i may understand his stance ...

as i said earlier i do not deny the occurances of this incident ...

except the fact that most of the hadiths are unclear and controversial

like the one you stated ..

and yes as far as i know its unauthentic ...but ill have to check further details ...which you failed to convey ...

(salam)

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salamun alaikum

To Conclude:

Would like to thank br. Yousif for this disscussion with him!! It helped me increase my knowledge and also i learnt two very important things which are as follows:

1) The approach of those who want to deny any incident or event...or should i say the truth... is that firstly they say that there is no tradition from the Masoom (as) and when a Hadees is put forth, they start finding loop holes in the hadees and start questioning its sanad etc and finally say that the Hadees is unauthentic.....

2) Unlike the claim of Fadlallh that only Janabe Fizza has narrated the incident, the Narration of Incident by Janabe Fatima Zehra (sa) is also present as has been quoted above......Need not say any further....

Wassalam

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Dr. Ali Shariati in "Fatima is Fatima" and Mandelung in the book " The succession to Muhammed" indicate that Umer did try to burn down the house however, Abu Bakr came and stopped him before anything happened. Then they wanted to apologise to her for Umer's action. However, I believe this where she does not accept their apology.

I do agree that Hazrath Ali could have never allowed this to happen. It has nothing to do with anger it has to do with defending your family. Second in the all stories that are said from the mimbar where they describe how the zakhm the wound was so bad and Hazarth Ali saw this while he was doing ghusul does not make sense. He was after all married to her and he did not know the extent of his wife's wound does not make sense.

It also does not make sense when the Shia's claim that Hazrath Ali helped Umer every step of the way in his khilafat as in providing him advise for the sake of Islam.

One cannot have both stories true if both are true then all the more reason why shia's should not hate or curse the first three Khalifs nor should they be bad mean or disrespectful to the sunni's. If Hazrath Ali inspite of all that was done to Fatima AS still dealt with the opressors kindly for the sake of Islam then we as his followers should do the same with our sunni brother and sisters.

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(salam)

.... It also does not make sense when the Shia's claim that Hazrath Ali helped Umer every step of the way in his khilafat as in providing him advise for the sake of Islam.

One cannot have both stories true if both are true then all the more reason why shia's should not hate or curse the first three Khalifs nor should they be bad mean or disrespectful to the sunni's. If Hazrath Ali inspite of all that was done to Fatima AS still dealt with the opressors kindly for the sake of Islam then we as his followers should do the same with our sunni brother and sisters.

For the sake of islam.. we can unite with the sunnis.. but we can't praise the oppressors.. thats being unjust.. Prophet(saww) was compassionate towards the people of Taif and Imam Hussain(as) was compassionate towards the army of yazeed when he tried to show them the right way.. but we have supplications from the Imams(as) where these oppressors are cursed.. whoever opressed.. he/she should be punished.. not praised... wassalaamun alaikum

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(bismillah)

Allah o Akbar. Allah is the Greatest

Ya Allah Madad

how would one believe that one incident which has been written in someone's histroy is true or not??????????

what are the islamic conditions as per Quran and Hadeeth of believing(i.e. to believe on reported incidents)?????????????

May Allah guide us all and keep us on the path of those people whom He blessed and loved. Aameen

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(bismillah)

Allah o Akbar. Allah is the Greatest

Ya Allah Madad

how would one believe that one incident which has been written in someone's histroy is true or not??????????

what are the islamic conditions as per Quran and Hadeeth of believing(i.e. to believe on reported incidents)?????????????

May Allah guide us all and keep us on the path of those people whom He blessed and loved. Aameen

What if that someone happens to be authentic and books of both sects, sunni and shias. ?? Then what?

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