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In the Name of God بسم الله

Scary beliefs of Akhbari sect


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(bismillah)

(salam)

From http://www.akhbari.org/differences.htm :

11. The prophet and 13 infallibles are equal and same in all and every aspect

13. Subtractions and alterations were made in Holy Quran.

14. Gaining knowledge about divinity (Marefate Noorania) of Prophet Mohammed (S.A) and His Progeny (A.S). Is compulsory

17. Salvation is only through deep love and affection for Imam Ali (A.S) and through gaining knowledge of his divinity. (Practices (aamal) are intensively demanded).

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Umm...seems like you're the one causing unneccessary divisions. (wasalam)

(bismillah) (salam) From http://www.akhbari.org/differences.htm : 11. The prophet and 13 infallibles are equal and same in all and every aspect 13. Subtractions and alterations were made in Ho

7. Using the term Imam for any one other than 12 Imams is forbidden Wow this is pretty sick. They just stripped the definition of the word away.

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Aslamo 3alikum,

I think 14 and 17 are ok.

Whats all this usooli and akbari business? If i'm not akbari does that mean im usooli???

Well, they say so.

but I think I am simple Ithna Asheri Shia Muslim (aren't these three differences enough?)

I dont like being called Usooli or Akhbari or anything else :blink:

ma'salama

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(salam),

I'm not Akbari...

Taqleed of only 14 infallibles as obligatory

Using the term Imam for any one other than 12 Imams is forbidden

Alian Walliullah is an integral part without which the kalema is incomplete.

ETC.

And I can't be Usooli Either...

Self blood shedding (khooni matam) in the mourning of Imam Hussain (A.S) is forbidden (haram) and innovation in religion (biddat).

:donno:

Wa'salaam

Asad Ali.

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This is the first time I am hearing these names. Do I have to make a choice ?

Can someone tell me which  group did Ayatullah Sheestani, the late Ayatullah Khomeini and the late Maulana Syed Ali Naqi Sahab of Lucknow belong to ?

They are the experts of Ilme Usool

btw when did Sayyid Ali Naqi Sahab die? 2-3 years ago?

ma'salama

Edited by Peer Syed Sahib
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Late 80s :o

Man, I have some books published in early-mid 90s and they have put "Madadhal lalla hu" with his name and I think its for living persons :donno:

Well, ok thanks for the clarification..

ma'salama

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Then this cannot be held as a part of Usooli Beleifs...

hmmmm..

Yeah actually as you know the Usoolis have different opinion on this..

But, I dont think any such marji3 who says that we shouldn't be engaged in "tatbeer" (I think they do allow zanjeer, not sure) says that it is haram because of any other reason..

They say "it portrays a wrong image of Islam in the eyes of westerners" [ I think this reason was given by Sayyid Khamenei' when he banned it, can anyone verify? ]

ma'salama

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I am pretty sure he died in the eighties.

Anyway, who can tell me when the Akhbari sect came into being and how ?

And who started it ?

Goto other religious debates, and there is a topic about this, a bro. has posted some extracts from Shaikh Mutahiri's book.

Though it should be mentioned here that according to Akhbaris " The usoolis emerged, and the Akhbaris were already living"

And they say that every shia till the time of Shaykh al-Sadooq (Allaihi Rehma) was 'Akhbari'

ma'salama

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Self blood shedding (khooni matam) in the mourning of Imam Hussain (A.S) is forbidden (haram) and innovation in religion (biddat).

This is not Shi'ah/Usooli belief. If this were so, then all the Shi'ah olema would have banned azadari. That website is full of lies like it says Shi'ahs believe in qiyas and rai.

This is the first time I am hearing these names. Do I have to make a choice ?

Usooli is a term for the 99.9% of Shi'ahs in the world who follow Islam-original. Originally, akhbari and usooli were tendencies in thought amongst Shi'ah scholars. The akhbari sect today is a fringe movement, very similar to the Sunni Ahle-Hadith sect, which sprang up only a few decades ago in opposition to the Islamic Revolution in Iran and the howzeh in Qom. They are situated in India/Pakistan and led by a group of ignorant mollahs. No Shi'ah scholar worth his amamah follows akhbarism.

Though it should be mentioned here that according to Akhbaris " The usoolis emerged, and the Akhbaris were already living

Nonsense, if this were true, then why were the akhbaris dead for so many centuries before reemerging? According to Ayatollah Baqir Sadr (sa):

The founder of Akhbarism was Mulla Amin Astarabadi, who expounded his beliefs in his famous book Fawa'id al-madaniyyah...Amin Astarabadi claims to have discovered some truths which nobody before him had succeeded in knowing. Also, he claims a kind of Divine inspiration for himself;.... Also in order to deny the authenticity of the text of the Quran, Amin Astarabadi raised the issue of its corruption (tahrif)...He ferociously attacked al- 'Allamah al-Hilli, who had classified traditions into sahih, muwaththaq, hasan, and da'if, and occasionally insults the 'Allamah and his followers in his book....view agrees totally with the outlook of the European empiricists of the sixteenth century. Incidentally, the period in which Astarabadi lived approximately coincides with that of the emergence of empiricism in Europe. It is not known whether his views were original or he had borrowed them... But we know nothing about how he came to adopt those views, whether he had innovated them or had borrowed them from someone else ...

And they say that every shia till the time of Shaykh al-Sadooq (Allaihi Rehma) was 'Akhbari'

Wishful thinking. It is a definite fact that no school existed during the times of the Imams (as) and onward that opposed ijtehad, claimed tahrif in the Qur'an, nor denied reason in order to defend the hadith. Perhaps it is from the claims of the akhbaris that Sunnis accuse us of believing in tahrif of the Qur'an.

Ayatollah Sadr continues:

The appearance of Akhbarism, as I have said before, was a catastrophe for the scientific and intellectual life of the Shi'ah. Many individuals came to adopt its teachings and came to look down upon reason and rationalism. They made reflection upon the Quran a taboo and, instead of making the Quran the criterion for the acceptability of hadith, made hadith a criterion for the Quran. Fortunately there emerged eminent personalities among the mujtahidun and usulis who fought the influence of the Akhbaris. Among them the names of Wahid Behbahani and Shaykh Murtada al-'Ansari - may God elevate their station - stand high. To describe in detail the services of these two personages is beyond the scope of the present study.

By the way, it should not remain unsaid that the struggle against Akhbarism was a difficult and complex matter because its teachings took a deceptive and self-righteous stance which misled the public. It was for this reason that they rapidly gained influence and popularity after Amin Astarabadi ...

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Akbari's basically got debated out of existence. And the ones that did survive (ie did not convert) went to Bahrain. I believe it was Nadir Shah (who was Akbari) wanted to forge an alliance with the Ottamons. He said, "look we Akbaris are a lot like you sunnis, we don't believe in anaylzing the hadiths as rigorous as the usooli, we don't believe in taqleed, etc."

The Ottomons basically said, "Screw you..." And no alliance was forged.

ShiaNews.com is infected with akhbar thoughts--ie the debate on Taqleed.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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ShiaNews.com is infected with akhbar thoughts--ie the debate on Taqleed.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

Actually No.

Many normal shias donot believe in Taqleed, I myself didn't believe in it ( i started doing it just 1-2 months ago)

I know loads who donot believe in it, infact I think the majority of Pakistani Shias donot do anyone's taqleed, they all were in the taqleed of Sayyid Khui' and their concept died with his death.

The ShiaNews guys are actually influenced by the mystic thoughts (the Pakistani sufism, not the one in which Sayyid Khomeini, Mutahiri etc believed)..

You know what I mean :donno:

Ali786: Thanks for the clarification..

ma'salama

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(bismillah)

(salam)

infact I think the majority of Pakistani Shias donot do anyone's taqleed, they all were in the taqleed of Sayyid Khui' and their concept died with his death.

You're right that many Pakistanis and Indians don't do taqleed but I think that is due to ignorance about the concept of taqleed and of religion in general. It wasn't until the Islamic revolution in Iran that we gained awareness of religion. Prior to that many hadn't event heard of things like Dua-e-Kumayl. A scholar was once telling us that Ayatollah Baqir Sadr (sa) used to tell his Pakistani/Indian students that your people have more love for Ahlul-Bayt (as) than even us Arabs but yet they are so ignorant about religious matters that they can't perform basic things like wuzoo properly.

This is why you see so many cult groups spring up amongst Shi'ahs in Pakistan. The akhbaris are a good example of this.

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in the name of Allah, is this a good thing?? i mean is the production of this website good ?? i believe it is for now

on another thread on this forum i posted two articles on the beliefs of akhbaris written by alatullah muthari.

he points out some of the fundemental beliefs on deriving islamic laws/creed:

-the denial of the possibility of arriving at certainty through exercising reason (`aql);

-the denial of the validity and the proof (dalil) of the Qur'an on the pretext that the understanding of the Qur'an lay exclusively in the hands of the Prophet's ahl al­bayt, and that our duty is to consult the hadith of the ahl al­bayt [for its interpretation and understanding];

-the assertion that ijma` was the innovation of the Sunnis; the assertion that, of the four valid proofs (adilla), i.e., the Book, the Sunna, ijma` and `aql,

-only the Sunna is able to lead to certainty, the assertion that all the hadith that appear in the "four books"" are true and valid, and of categorical provenance [from the Imams] (qat`i al­sudur).

the funny thing is sayed mahdi al modderasi believes all 4 books are sahih. even though they contain weak narrations and some fabricated ones. its only a baseless assumption . the narratons telling us that the 4 books are sahih are also daeef.

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but I think I am simple Ithna Asheri Shia Muslim (aren't these three differences enough?)

I dont like being called Usooli or Akhbari or anything else :blink:

the last time i raised this issue was during the exposition of the beliefs of the shianews.com editor. and people said "whats this akhbari usuli business , we dont need more divisions"

well you have to face the truth. theye xist and differences exist in life all the way to the minor details but sometimes we give each other names when the differences are significant.

with all due respect peer sayid sahib, because you are only 17 and interested in religion. whenever i read your posts i seem to disagree with most of you analysis. :) :D :)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

the funny thing is sayed mahdi al modderasi believes all 4 books are sahih. even though they contain weak narrations and some fabricated ones. its only a baseless assumption . the narratons telling us that the 4 books are sahih are also daeef.

There are many scholars who believe in the authenticity of the 4 books. However, unlike Sunnis who elevate their sahihs to the level of the Qur'an, our books are open to criticism. Yes, there are weak hadith in al-Kafi but that doesn't mean it didn't come from the Imams (as). We can question the integrity of those who reported the hadith but we cannot reject the hadith as fabricated if it does not contradict Qur'an and sunnah.

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salaam

So far i have not dwelled on this subject even when there was a thread on this, but except for perhaps a PM to a brother or two.

From the replies i presume that many have not bothered to visit the site that bro akhbari110 had requested. Either to time constraint, or that site seemed uninteresting as they might have not heard of this word before.

Of those who did - quite a few were unaware of the differences that exists in the shiism sect, and those who were/are have limited their readings/inferences to a single article by syed mutaharri. pity, how a single article, however concise, could conclude an entire discussion.

Akhbariat is much beyond what he has written. I presume the introduction chapter of kitaab al irshad can shed a little more light on this, where the author has written that the sheikh was of the immamiya order. Immamiya/akhbari are 2 names of the same belief, where taqleed is done only of the Imam.

I would have thought that there would have been a lot of responses to the points listed on that site, but the responses as said earlier, have been limited to syed mutaharri's article. it would have been interesting to read the responses by my knowledgeable brothers/sisters. But then i guess, this might be an uninteresting thread to most, or it simply might not be worth the man hours spent on finding out more about this.

Still, the 13th volume of behar, at the end of which are the touqi's, irshads of 12th imam(as) are worth reading.

akhbari

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Aslamo 3alikum,

Akhbari: Bro. Imamiyyah or Imami Shias is a common word used by "Ithna Asheri Usooli Shias" , "Ithna Asheri Akhbari Shias" as well as by "Ismaili Shias"

So, its a common word :)

ma'salama

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salaam

apologise for another post.

bro peer - is it accepted fact that those who do taqleed of mujtahid are usooli shias, cause akhbari does taqleed only of imam.

Reading those books mentioned in the previous post will give a clearer picture if this is accepted.

akhbari

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Br Ali786 said:

We can question the integrity of those who reported the hadith but we cannot reject the hadith as fabricated if it does not contradict Qur'an and sunnah.

With respect brother, I think you may have made a typo, since "Sunnah" is derived from hadeeth, a hadeeth will not contradict itself. This is logical.

Imam as-Sadiq(A) gave us a very simple formula to determine the validity of a hadeeth, the formula is that the hadeeth should not contradict Quran, and ONLY QURAN. However, even then we must examine the chain of transmission, but the correctness of the hadeeth is then not in question, it is simply whether the Imam(A) or Prophet(S) actually said that. The matter that was uttered in said hadeeth is then validated, the context of the hadeeth is then validated via the asnaad (chain of transmission), the asbaab (the circumstances of the hadeeth), the rijaal (the people who transmitted the hadeeth), etc.

Imam as-Sadiq(A) said:

"If a hadeeth contradicts the Quran, then throw it to the wall" (Bihar, Wasail, Usul al-Kafi)

Moving on,

Br Akhbari said:

bro peer - is it accepted fact that those who do taqleed of mujtahid are usooli shias, cause akhbari does taqleed only of imam.

With respect Br Akhbari, if the Akhbari school of thought only does taqleed of the "Imam", and since the Imam(AJ) is in occultation, pray tell, how does the Akhbari school of thought determine fatawi on new issues.

Also, since it is well known that in all the books of hadeeth, there are hadeeth which contradict other hadeeth (in some cases blatently), and also hadeeth that contradict Quran, and since without the actual presence of the Imam(AJ) you cannot directly ask him (or do the Akhbari Ulema have a direct hotline to Imam al-Hujjah(AJ) - if so can I please have the number :P), what source is used for such Islamic rulings?

Please reply without a blind rejection of my question. Obviously the Akhbari Ulema have an understanding of the rulings that are required in this day and age, and hence must have a method whereby they can deduce fatawi (naturally from the Quran, Prophet(S) and Aimmah(A)) for current issues.

Please elaborate - not as a private message, but publically.

If you cannot defend, on account of either a lack of knowledge on your part, or due to a reluctance on your part to get into such a debate, I would suggest that you make it clear.

If you say that you don't know, then by implication you must follow an Alem Rabbani (who is an Akhbari naturally), who gives you the fatawi, hence by implication you are doing Taqleed of the said Alem Rabbani, and if you choose to not respond on account of reluctance, you must concede that there is something wrong with the entire system of Akhbarism, since a Muslim will always defend Islam, regardless of the cost.

Also, if it is required that all Akhbariyeen, in order to avoid making "taqleed" of another Alem Rabbani, must be completely versed in Quran and it's related sciences, as well as hadeeth and the sciences related to that, this by implication means that the entire population of the Akhbariyeen are all "Ulema" in a manner of speaking. Most impressive.

Logically, if they are not versed in the various sciences, then by implication they must ask another Alem Rabbani, as I have elaborated previously, hence they do taqleed (imitation of the understanding/opinion of another on a given subject or issue), which means by implication, while indirectly they are doing taqleed of the Imam(AJ), they are in fact directly doing taqleed of a fallible.

Voila, Akhbarism, becomes no different to Usulism in that respect. The Usuli line makes Taqleed of Ulema, who have attained the level of Marja' Taqleed, since they have studied and are able to deduce rulings from the authentic Islamic sources, primarily Quran, and then the valid and confirmed ahadeeth as well as other sources, such as aql, and certain rulings (as defined in Usul al-Figh), however, the core of the edicts (fatawi) are from the core sources, which are the same for both the Usuli and Akhbari.

An elaboration on the part of the Akhbariyeen on this board (or those invited by those on the board) would be extremely enlightening.

I await (although without bated breath), a pertinent, intelligable and coherent reply from you (or any other Akhbari that may be on the board).

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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Guest QizilBash
Akbari's basically got debated out of existence. And the ones that did survive (ie did not convert) went to Bahrain. I believe it was Nadir Shah (who was Akbari) wanted to forge an alliance with the Ottamons. He said, "look we Akbaris are a lot like you sunnis, we don't believe in anaylzing the hadiths as rigorous as the usooli, we don't believe in taqleed, etc."

The Ottomons basically said, "Screw you..." And no alliance was forged.

bro this is wrong, nadir shah came to power aftr the safavi empire ended. He controled iran and tried influence sunni belifs into iran, which he unfortunetly has done, we can see from iran now that it does not represent true shiasm, and ther are many conspiracy theroes that iran is a sunni leaning country

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Bro. shabbirh wrote:

the formula is that the hadeeth should not contradict Quran, and ONLY QURAN. However, even then we must examine the chain of transmission, but the correctness of the hadeeth is then not in question, it is simply whether the Imam(A) or Prophet(S) actually said that. The matter that was uttered in said hadeeth is then validated, the context of the hadeeth is then validated via the asnaad (chain of transmission), the asbaab (the circumstances of the hadeeth), the rijaal (the people who transmitted the hadeeth), etc.

But if a hadith conforming with Qur'an meets all of the aforementioned criteria except for one, is this really enough reason for us to reject it as the word of the Masoomen (as)? I mean, can we not still accept it as the word of the Imam keeping in mind that it's not 100% certain? Based on what you wrote, the only surefire test for determining whether a hadith really came from the Masoomen is whether it contradicts Qur'an or not.

There's nothing else I can add to Bro. shabbirh's brilliant response to Bro. akhbari, but I'd like to know how akhbari's reconcile this contradiction. From http://www.akhbari.org/differences.htm

1. Quran and Ahadees as the only source of Divine law (ahkamat)

13. Subtractions and alterations were made in Holy Quran

If the Qur'an has been tampered with then how can you consider it a source of Divine Law? How do you determine which parts of the Qur'an are correct and which aren't? Furthermore what do you have to say about this ayah:

"Falsehood can not reach the Quran from any direction (41:42)"

Do you believe this is true? If so, then it negates your belief of tahrif in the Qur'an.

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Br/Sis QizilBash said:

bro this is wrong, nadir shah came to power aftr the safavi empire ended. He controled iran and tried influence sunni belifs into iran, which he unfortunetly has done, we can see from iran now that it does not represent true shiasm, and ther are many conspiracy theroes that iran is a sunni leaning country

With respect Br Qizilbash, you have made a strong (to say the least) statement against the Islamic Republic. Please provide evidence or recant what you have said.

Secondly, are you the same Qizilbash on one time on a shiachat.com Chat session were insisting the the enemy of Allah, Mr Kamal Attaturk was actually following the line of Imam Husayn(A)? I believe you said you were an "alevi".

If that is the case, then why is an "alevi" or "alawi" or whatever you want to call yourself, saying such blanket statements without even so much as a single piece of evidence.

Provide credible proof or recant. Enough

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Br Ali786 said:

But if a hadith conforming with Qur'an meets all of the aforementioned criteria except for one, is this really enough reason for us to reject it as the word of the Masoomen ? I mean, can we not still accept it as the word of the Imam keeping in mind that it's not 100% certain? Based on what you wrote, the only surefire test for determining whether a hadith really came from the Masoomen is whether it contradicts Qur'an or not.

My respected brother, what I meant, and it is my fault, I didn't make myself clear.

Let me try and elaborate on this a little.

If a hadeeth does not contradict Quran, then it is valid, however, until the relevant chain of narration and other criteria have not been investigated it is not valid to suggest that for example Imam Ridha(A) said this..., instead it is more prudent to say that "One of the infallible Imams said ...." - since it has not been verified as to whether the hadeeth - while valid in terms of it's content - has actually been uttered by the said Imam.

The content of the hadeeth can be validated by using the Quran, the verification of the details of the hadeeth require further research.

However, it must be understood that validation using Quran is not an easy task, which is why we have Ulema who spend years studying and then they give us fatawi.

If the hadeeth checks out in all criteria except one, then as long as it's not Quran, we can say that this hadeeth is possibly not sahih, but it is weak or something - there is a complete set of criteria and classifications.

Off course if a hadeeth has been circulated by many people, and it's context is the same, such as Hadeeth ath-Thaqalayn or Hadeeth al-Kisa, then it becomes mutawatir, and as long as it doesn't go against Quran, it is valid.

This science is not that easy to explain, and I hope I have given enough information to make it clear - although I am sure that my brothers and sisters are already aware of this :D

I hope that clarifies.

Br Akhbari, I am still waiting for your response.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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salaam

bro ali786 - quote

1. Quran and Ahadees as the only source of Divine law (ahkamat)

13. Subtractions and alterations were made in Holy Quran

If the Qur'an has been tampered with then how can you consider it a source of Divine Law? How do you determine which parts of the Qur'an are correct and which aren't? Furthermore what do you have to say about this ayah:

a- "Falsehood can not reach the Quran from any direction (41:42)" - unquote

1 - isnt this saqlain.

13 - kindly read ziarat e ashura & dua e sanam e khuraish.

a- i do comment on commentaries & literal translations. kindly find out what masoom has said abt this ayat.

bro shabbirh - normally i dont access net from home at weekends for long time. kindly let me get back to office after which inshallah i will reply to my best knowledge. U must be aware that for knowledge beyong ones realm, one has to refer back to principal source for references.

thanks for the PM, though i must admit that from my joining of shiachat i have never seen u reply to any post in sarcasm, which is evident here in abundance.

In the meantime in request you to kindly read bihar 13th vol , touqi of 12th imam on nas for any problem.

akhbari

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brother akhbari could you please qoute quranic verses in english because it becomes hard for people like me to know what you are refering to. what does touqi mean?

regarding to the issue of tahrif are you refering to the words of imam hussain (as) where he said the enemies distorted the quran??

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Br Akhbari said:

bro shabbirh - normally i dont access net from home at weekends for long time. kindly let me get back to office after which inshallah i will reply to my best knowledge. U must be aware that for knowledge beyong ones realm, one has to refer back to principal source for references.

I appologise for interrupting your weekend. I look forward to reading your reply.

Indeed, it is true that one has to refer to principle sources. Like I said I await your reply.

thanks for the PM, though i must admit that from my joining of shiachat i have never seen u reply to any post in sarcasm, which is evident here in abundance.

Sarcasm? I'm afraid you must have misunderstood me, I was making valid observations on the Akhbari school of thought, like I have said, if I am mistaken, then please correct me.

I once again, look forward to a detailed reply, please do not reply me in the manner you've replied Br Ali786, include the question in the reply, it makes following the discussion much easier.

In the meantime in request you to kindly read bihar 13th vol , touqi of 12th imam on nas for any problem.

Brother, with the utmost of respect, if you give me a particular hadeeth within Bihar, (exact references please), then fair enough. I am not in the habit, and I do not have the time to read a book, which with all due respect to Allamah Majlisi, by his own admission is nothing more than a compilation of hadeeth, some of which are grossly inaccurate, and some of which are valid.

I have no problem as regards what I believe, and I await to hear the Akhbari justification and method on making Taqleed of an Infallible Imam, who is currently in occulation.

Since by the look of things, you will be giving a detailed reply, I would like to know of your credentials, meaning where you have studied and what, and under which Alem Rabbani. That would be useful purely from the point of view of reference. If you do not wish to disclose such information, this is your perogative, and fair enough.

However, please make sure you reply quoting the questions, and then placing answers, i do not want to have to have two browser windows open to scrutinize your answers and verify them.

Have a pleasent weekend, and insha Allah, we await a reply. (Soon insha Allah)

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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