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In the Name of God بسم الله

RAJAAAAA in QURAN.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

RAJAAH IN QURAN

40.11

YUSUFALI: They will say: "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins: Is there any way out (of this)?"

PICKTHAL: They say: Our Lord! Twice hast Thou made us die, and twice hast Thou made us live. Now we confess our sins. Is there any way to go out?

note that these are sunni translations.

can any sunni explain it to me this particular ayat? :squeez:

Edited by The Antimason
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Let me ask you:

When we are resurrected in the end of time and meet Allah, and Allah tell's the evil-doers what you have quoted from the Quran, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE AND THEY BEEN GIVEN LIFE???

They were given life once, when they were born, and given life again on the day of resurrection. By your interpretation it means they were given life THREE TIMES, while the Quran says TWICE! So you are actually contradicting!

As for "Made us without life twice", it is referring to us before we are born, that we are dead before we are born, even though are souls existed before our birth. So Allah makes us die twice, and live twice.

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Infact, Rajaah has Nothing to do with Islam and is taken DIRECTLY from pagan pre-islamic beliefs, especially the idol worshippers of Iraq who believed BAAL (god of war) would return to take revenge on his enemies... this is exactly what Shiahs believe about Rajaah or Rujah, that the "Imams" would return to avenge their own deaths by killing their murdrers!

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Infact, Rajaah has Nothing to do with Islam and is taken DIRECTLY from pagan pre-islamic beliefs, especially the idol worshippers of Iraq who believed BAAL (god of war) would return to take revenge on his enemies... this is exactly what Shiahs believe about Rajaah or Rujah, that the "Imams" would return to avenge their own deaths by killing their murdrers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(salam)

Please present your proof brother.

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Wa alaykumussalam Shia-of-Ali.

What proof do you want? You can check any history book you want that talks about ancient Iraq. You can even check just about any encyclopedia, any wikipedia, I think it is on the Free wikipedia on internet if you search for the word "baal".

Intrestingly, according to the Bible (book of kings) and MANY history books the Baal worshippers used to Cut themselves with swords and knives and some (ones in egypt) beat themselves on the chest.

It is obvious that Shiahs have transformed Imam Hussain into Baal, when infact, Baal and Imam Hussain had nothing in common (except that they were both killed...then again, millions of people have been killed throughout history...)

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This verse is like verse 2:28 Baqara Surah:

( jow do you not beleive in Allah and you were dead then he made you alive then he made you dead then he made alive)

man was dead as a spermand egg then became alive in the 2nd third of pregnancy then dead in this life then alive again in the day of Judgement, here 2 dead and 2 lives.

Rajaa is a requirement of the Gnostism religion ( indian old religion) that people will be resurructed in this life. It is also a requirement in shia doctrine.( because they are the same belief)

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Let me ask you:

When we are resurrected in the end of time and meet Allah, and Allah tell's the evil-doers what you have quoted from the Quran, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE AND THEY BEEN GIVEN LIFE???

They were given life once, when they were born, and given life again on the day of resurrection. By your interpretation it means they were given life THREE TIMES, while the Quran says TWICE! So you are actually contradicting!

As for "Made us without life twice", it is referring to us before we are born, that we are dead before we are born, even though are souls existed before our birth. So Allah makes us lifeless twice, and live twice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(salam)

For death to occur, it must be preceded by life but its opposite is not true. So either there is one death and two lives, or two deaths and three lives. Both cases doesnot concur with this quranic verse. So there might be some other explaination.

P.S. I don't think this verse is the famous proof for raja.

Edited by sayedzeeshan
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newnew - do you believe we will be physically alive on the day of judgement? from my understanding it will last for thousands of years, will we eat, get old, sleep, etc as well?

-

rahat

Edited by rahat
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Resurrection has always been a powerful tool used against humans by the clergy.Because,as opposed to day of judgment in which we are judged when already dead,resurrection promises judgment in this life and is more effective in controlling them.

That is why Paul preached coming of Jesus,and punishing non believers,in his own lifetime.The ploy was so successful that Paul converted most of Romans.

The same is true of Rajah.What is appealing to shias is not the resurrection,as everyone will be resurrected on day of judgment,but the punishment it will give to Sunnis and their elders.So it is a very effective tool.

While the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the foundational beliefs of Christianity, accounts of other resurrections also figure in religion, myth, and fable. centuries before the time of Christ the nations annually celebrated the death and resurrection of Osiris, Tammuz, Attis, Mithra, and other gods.

http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/library/myth.shtml

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Resurrection has always been a powerful tool used against humans by the clergy.Because,as opposed to day of judgment in which we are judged when already dead,resurrection promises judgment in this life and is more effective in controlling them.

      That is why Paul preached coming of Jesus,and punishing non believers,in his own lifetime.The ploy was so successful that Paul converted most of Romans.

        The same is true of Rajah.What is appealing to shias is not the resurrection,as everyone will be resurrected on day of judgment,but the punishment it will give to Sunnis and their elders.So it is a very effective tool.

        While the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the foundational beliefs of Christianity, accounts of other resurrections also figure in religion, myth, and fable. centuries before the time of Christ the nations annually celebrated the death and resurrection of Osiris, Tammuz, Attis, Mithra, and other gods.

http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/library/myth.shtml

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the most ridiculous post ever on shiachat. :lol:

If someone doesnot believe in yawm-al-qiyamah then he won't believe in rajah as well.

But for sunnis believing in the day of resurrection and then saying such stuff about rajah (also partial reserruction) is extremely ironic.

Edited by sayedzeeshan
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This is the most ridiculous post ever on shiachat. :lol:

If someone doesnot believe in yawm-al-qiyamah then he won't believe in rajah as well.

But for sunnis believing in the day of resurrection and then saying such stuff about rajah (also partial reserruction) is extremely ironic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Want to know what is ridiculous?Let me tell you.

Ridiculous is opening a discussion Forum and then baning every one who wants to discuss anything.lol

Ridiculous is shias posing as Sunnis and supporting shiaism.

Ridiculous is inventing resurrection in shiaism.No Imam including the twelfth ever died in shiaism.Everyone,including Imam Ali is alive today.So from where comes this notion of resurrection?

Want some more or will you cry BANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN?

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(salam)

If you respect the rules and Honor the ettiquette of disagreement and try to call to the path of Allah SWT with wisdon and good advice then maybe you will not be banned not only here but on any forum .

but if you want to act as holier than thou , and disrespect people in their own home then You are asking for it .

an no I am not a shia , I am a follower of the quran and sunnah and the Ahlul Bayt a.s. or at least i am trying :) .

Think what you like though it aint making us fatter or thinner :D .

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but if you want to act as holier than thou , and disrespect people in their own home then You are asking for it .

What the hell are you talking about, even the thread starter who was a shia is banned now, these creeps dont even allow their family members to stay here :!!!:

Edited by lAun ali rizvi
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How do you know for death to occur life have to preceed it. Are you the creator.

What do you call the fetus before Rouh given to it dead or alive?

The prophet said death was created first!

If Rajaah is true then we have ( according to you) 3 lives and two dead ( Then rajaa is wrong)

Weren't rouh created before life, so what do you call rouh and fetus before life?

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Brother Slocym, add to that the fact that Allah even says "the lifeless earth"...so does this mean the earth was once alived and then killed ???

Lifeless means we had no life. Then we were given a life, and then we will die and be resurrected in the day of judgement. So Allah made us lifeless twice, and gives us life twice. Simple.

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Then how do you explain the verse in Sura Baqara ( how do you not beleive in him and you were dead then made you alive and and then dead and then alive at the day of judgement)

Did not god vreated Adam dead for ages and the angeles were scared from looking at the body of Adam. Later God put life in him, so what was Adam before life was put in him, was not he a creation of God? and what do you call that creation ? dead or alive?

Your argument that God said ( caused you to die) is not in the verse, there is no (caused) in the verse.

God can create things dead at first ( with out having to be alive before), other wise you are implying that God is unable to do what ever he wants and he should follow your guidelines?

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(salam)

^The verse doesnt say 'death' rather it says 'caused to die'.  In order to cause something to die it has to be alive beforehand.

ws

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^Finally someone is talking sense.

newnew, this is a good time to throw in some of your fabricated hadiths! :P

ws.

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is the verse in Sura Baqara ( hadith)?

again the word is not caused you to die. it is rather ( deaded you twice) which means ( made you dead twice) and God can create a dead thing ( which is miraculous creation by itself, such as the fetus (first 2 months), and Adam body before spirit was put in him, and also all creations that are dead like the cosmos, material, atoms, light etc etc.

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(salam)

Then how do you explain the verse in Sura Baqara ( how do you not beleive in him and you were dead then made you alive and and then dead and then alive at the day of judgement)

Death and causing to die are two different things.

Did not god vreated Adam dead for ages and the angeles were scared from looking at the body of Adam. Later God put life in him, so what was Adam before life was put in him, was not he a creation of God? and what do you call that creation ? dead or alive?

Definitely not dead.

Your argument that God said ( caused you to die) is not in the verse, there is no (caused) in the verse.

You obviously dont know arabic.

God can create things dead at first ( with out having to be alive before), other wise you are implying that God is unable to do what ever he wants and he should follow your guidelines?

Death and life are opposites. Can God be One and not be One at the same time?

ws

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(salam)

Btw, in the interests of objectivity, it should be mentioned that Allamah Tabatabis tafsir for this verse does not mention Raj'ah. He believes this verse proves Barzakh as first we have life {{life 1}}, then we physically die {{death 1}}, then the next life is in barzakh{{life 2}}, then death after that{{death 2}}, then the Afterlife{{'thummah ilayhi turja3oon''}}. The only problem I have with this is that I dont understand how we can die after barzakh. Maybe Ive missed something. Anybody?

ws

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you did not explain the Baqara sura ( you were dead and then made you alive)

the word ( Amatakum) , do you see the word ( caused ) in it?

I am Arabic, and a decendent of the prophet, and was top on my school in Arabic.

Are you arabic?

if you are, tell me the diffrent words that might come from it ( masdar, feel, ism, etc etc) and don't miss one.

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(salam)

you did not explain the Baqara sura ( you were dead and then made you alive)

Allamah Tabatabai':

It is wrong to say that the two verses have the same connotation. The verse 2:28 mentions one death, one causing to die and two giving of life; while the verse 40:11 is talking about two giving of death and two giving of life. There is a world of difference between "death" and "causing to die". "Causing to die" shows a preceding life; while "death" can be used just for absence of life - even when there was no life before it.

the word ( Amatakum) , do you see the word ( caused ) in it?

If you 'dead something' you are causing it to die. You cant 'dead something' that doesnt exist.

Also if we take your interpretation, what is the meaning of the second 'Amatuna'? Does it not HAVE to be 'causing to die' in BOTH of our interpretations, ie, physical death? If its 'creating a dead thing' then when will this happen for the second time?

ws

Edited by .InshAllah.
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the word amata does not mean CAUSE to die , it means make dead.

make dead includes (causing to die If was alive before, and make die other processes such as Uzrael angel of death taking the soul, life of Barzakh, and other stuff we might not know of because it is a mystery ( even scientists don't know and will never know how death happens!)

on the other hand Make dead ( a thing) does not have to mean cause to die if God created something dead, example God created the moon dead, God can make the moon full of life on it if he wants to someday.

So final word ( Amata) means ( make dead) but not necessarily ( cause to die)

Again can you answer me what do you call the fetus before God give it rouh( spirit)?

Is it nothing, non existant, If it is existant, is it dead or alive?

If it is dead, then good created it ( fetus) dead, without being alive before that.

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Here is the primary proof on Al-Rajaa from imam sadiq(as).

Abu Basir narrated:

I asked Imam al-Sadiq (as) about the verse: "And on the day when We will gather from every nation a group (27:83)" He (as) said: "What do people say about it?" I said: "They say it is in the Day of Judgment." Thereupon Imam al-Sadiq (as) said: "Do you think Allah will gather from every nation only a group, and leave the rest? Verily this verse is about al-Raj'a. On the other hand, the verse related to the Day of Judgment is: 'and We shall gather them together and shall not leave out anyone. (18:47)'" (Tafsir Ali Ibn Ibrahim, as quoted in al-Bihar, v53, p51, Hadith #27)

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Now to the verse under discussion

On the commentary of verse: "O Lord! Thou caused us die twice, and Thou hast given (back) to us life twice, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out? (40:11)" it is narrated from Imam al-Baqir (as) who said:

"This is exclusive to those (Kuffar) who return to this world after death,

and this is their (statement) in the Day of Judgment (after the second

rising). So, far removed (from mercy) the wrongdoing folk." (al-Bihar, v53, p116, Hadith #139. Similar narratives are given from Imam al-Sadiq (as) and Imam al-Ridha (as). See al-Bihar, v53, p56, Hadith #36 and also p144)

According to the above verse, in the Day of Judgment the Kuffar who had died twice would be asking a third chance in order to repent for their sins. Note especially in the above verse that death has been mentioned before life. So this giving life means rising after death. There are two deaths for those people and after each death they will be brought back to life. In other words, after they die in this world, they will return to this world

(al-Raj'a) and then will die again, and thereafter they will be resurrected

in the Day of Judgment.

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Isn't abu Basir a hajib of Imam Jaafar Sadiq that the Imam kicked him out because he was kafir and the imam declared him kafir?

So why do you accept his reporting?

It is reported that Imam Jaafar used to kick two hajibs before the end of a month.

Most of these ex hajibs became narrators from Imam even though they stayed less than a month, and were kicked out after that as a kafir.

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explanation of the ayah you presented:

this is in the day of judgement, god will gather from the rest of populations of nations a group ( but which group?, not the laymen, or the followers, but only the people who knew the ayat of God but hidden them or denied them, for example, out of the christians he will get the group that studied the books and found evidence of the truth of Islam or evidence of the name of Ahmad in the Gospel, but chose to hide it from the rest of the populace.

Going back to the ayat 2lives and two death, you told me to note that deaths were mentioned first ( even though in a previous post, your frind said that death can not come first?

So the argument will go for ever ( death required ( by your friend) to come after life, and then life comes after death in your analogy. it is like who came first egg or chicken?

according to your analogy, why did not they mentioned the third life ( the life of the day of resurruction while they are speaking to God, taking into note that their Rajaa life they had no more a choice to repent, so it makes no sense that they ask him for a third chance since in the second chance they had no choice( which if they did they will difinitely repented in the rajaa life, and then they are forgiven in the day of judgement)

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There are other reports of the same meaning on authority of other companions of imam Baqir(as),sadiq(as) and al-ridha(as) other than abu baseer. I don't know what you said about abu baseer, maybe you are confusing him with abu shakir who was an atheist.

The current verse under discussion is the utterence of kaafirs who were given two lives after death and they wanted another life for repentance of their sins.

this is in the day of judgement, god will gather from the rest of populations of nations a group ( but which group?, not the laymen, or the followers, but only the people who knew the ayat of God but hidden them or denied them, for example, out of the christians he will get the group that studied the books and found evidence of the truth of Islam or evidence of the name of Ahmad in the Gospel, but chose to hide it from the rest of the populace.

What about this verse "and We shall gather them together and shall not leave out anyone." (18:47)

Can you make up your mind whether a group would be resurrected or everyone would be ressurected???

We have both types of verses.

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the verse about gather from every nation a group. the ayah does not say resurruction of that group only. It says about the puting them ( only the people who hid or denied evidences) aside in the day of judgement to ask them why did they hide the evidence?

God won't ask this question for all infidels, because lay people did not hide or deny evidences ( ayat), they just followed their preists who misled them.

The other ayah, about bring them all, this is in another surah, and talks about the day of judgement where all people will be accounted and not one be left.

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^^ I have explained that in my previous post where i mentioned the hadith.

Because the deaths were mentioned before life, the life here means life after death, thus two lives and two deaths.

P.S. Do you consider Ruh(spirit) as something alive or dead? If its alive then how were we dead?

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