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Fakir e Ali

SAJDA IN RESPECT OF AHLEBAYT

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(salam)

To the best of my knowledge,

Other than the direct Sajda to Allah, the other permissible sajda is the one mentioned in Al-Quran 12:100. According to Imam Ali Naqi a.s , the sajda of Hazra Yaqub & His sons to Hazrat Yusif was for the sake of Allah just like the sajda of angels to Adam was for the sake of Allah. It did not mean shirk.

Fi-Amanillah

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(salam)

Wouldn't it depend on the intention? If you are praying and flag or zari is in front of you, you could continue to pray, unless your intention is to worship the flag or zari?

Wa`Salaam

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The Maximum limit of ibadat is to reach the Hijab between Aabid and Mabood and we should learn and understand what is meant by Hijab ullah and what s hijab ullah. Its only than that you can argue if doing sajda infornt of zareeh-e-Aqdas or Alam Mubarak is allowed or not.

Im Happy to see that people have actually realised tthat we should not oppose such things - trust me its a very positive sign in understanding the depth of Ibadat and if my brothers and sisters start reading the sacred texts and books of tradition and Ma'arefat, i assure you that atleast a thousand Gates of knowledge would open up if you start reading about Ma'arefat of AhlulBait (as). I would advise everyone to start their quest for knowledge from the first sermon of Nahjul Balagha which if understood will change the whole meaning of touheed and people will start to realize that Touheed is not what they think it is but is a totally different thing. I would also like to remind momineen and mominaat that When Our Imam (as) would re appear and start teaching Islam, the shias would say this is not the islam that we know or were following - its totally diferent. Its high time we start learning the religion that was passed to us by Aimma Athaar (as) and we should continue our quest for knowledge from Cradle to Grave and try to get the original texts which are conveyed from Aimma (as).

You may be thinking that what i have written is not relevant to the topic but trust me it is 100% relevant and im suggesting to read about maarrefat because if i write the quotations here , many people will start issuing fatwa of Kufr on me just because they will not be able to understand the depths of Ma'arefat.

Ill end this post with a quotation from Hazrat Salman Farsi (as)

Hazrat Salman farsi (as) said " If people understand what Wilayat-e-Moula ALi (as) is the birds and Fish and many other creatures would come in their (momin's) obediance" SUBHANALLAH

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salaam, there is no precedence for doing sajda in front of the Alam or Zari. As far as I am aware both Ayatullah Seestani's and Khamani's office have indicated that if we are doing sajda for respect it is shirk because we only do do sajda to Allah. We can do sajda in front of the alam/Zari as long as we are aware of our niyyat.

The interesting question now arises if we do sajda to the Alam/zari and it is shirk why do we persist in doing it on the pretext that our niyyat is that it is for the sake of Allah. I have heard this argument before and it is seriously flawed. It appears that sections of the shiah community wish to do sajda but dress it up to make it more acceptable. What is the difference between a Hindu bowing to an Idol and saying he is using it as a focus for his devotion and us doing it to an Alam. very little I believe. Shirk is shirk no matter how you dress it up.salaam

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(salam)

The interesting question now arises if we do sajda to the Alam/zari and it is shirk why do we persist in doing it on the pretext that our niyyat is that it is for the sake of Allah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sister Fatima has explained it so well: "AL AMAALU BIN NIYYAH". It could be even though we are praying in front of a Zari or Alam, or intention is not to worship it. We are only worshipping Allah. It's simply that the Alam or Zari happened to be there, and we happened to pray there.

I guess we need to give people the benefit of the doubt. They do know not to do sajda to anythin but Allah.

Wa`Salaam

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salaam, I am sorry the explanation that the zari/alam is concdentaly in the same direction as our sajda is not accepted, i have heard too many discussions from people tying to justify why thet are doing sajda infront of th alam/zari to accept it is coincidental or that we should accept peoples niyaat. the queston i am askng is there is even an iota of wrongness in our niyat it is shirk. smply stating our niyaat mentally as a cover all and justifying our sajda when in our hearts our intention is diffrent is a cop out. Why allow any doubt simply don't do sajda directly infront of the zari or alam move to one side.

salaam.

shirk is shirk

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CAN WE DO SAJDA FRONT OF FLAG OF IMAM HUSSAIN OR ZARI OF MOLA IN RESPECT? OR IS IT UNLEGAL!?

(bismillah)

The life of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Imams (as) are perfect example for us. We should follow them in all aspects of life.

We should study the life of Prophet (pbuh) & imams (as) and find out if they ever did sajdah on Alam, Zari , Grave ETC. if they did then ofcourse it is permissible . if they dont then we should not even think of it because Imam Ali (as) say :

No innovation is introduced unless one sunnah is forsaken, keep away from innovations and stick to the broad road. Surely the old tested ways are the best and the innovated ones are bad.

ws.

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(salam)

salaam, I am sorry the explanation that the zari/alam is concdentaly in the same direction as our sajda is not accepted, i have heard too many discussions from people tying to justify why thet are doing sajda infront of th alam/zari to accept it is coincidental or that we should accept peoples niyaat. the queston i am askng is there is even an iota of wrongness in our niyat it is shirk. smply stating our niyaat mentally as a cover all and justifying our sajda when in our hearts our intention is diffrent is a cop out. Why allow any doubt simply don't do sajda directly infront of the zari or alam move to one side.

salaam.

shirk is shirk

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Praying in front of an picture, an image is Mukruh too I believe. Now, if I was praying TO THE PICTURE, it'd be shirk. If I was merely praying IN FRONT OF the picture, it may be makruh and not shirk. Ditto the alams and Zari's. The best way to settle this is to ask your Mar'ja.

Wa'Salaam

Edited by widad

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salaam, there is no precedence for doing sajda in front of the Alam or Zari. As far as I am aware both Ayatullah Seestani's and Khamani's office have indicated that if we are doing sajda for respect it is shirk because we only do do sajda to Allah. We can do sajda in front of the alam/Zari as long as we are aware of our niyyat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem at all I can agree and believe you too but please I need a reference. :)

Wassalam.

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Salaam, sorry sister Fatima, I agree I should have references but a lot of info I have gathered over the years is by discussion and at some stage I have seen the references but have not kept them. As indicated by brother Widad is to ask your Maraje for a copy of the ruling. The ruling is unambiguos doing sajda to the zari/Alam is shirk. however the problem arises that there is an element in shiahism that wishes to persist in this shirk. They raise sub-questions of if we are doing sajda in the direction/infront of the alam andour niyat is correct is this acceptable and the answer has been yes as long as the niyat is correct. The question I am posing what is the motive of these individuals in wishing to do sajda despite the warnings. I question

why the need

what the motive

why cannot they sajda at one side.

I question a persons integrity and his true niyat for doing something that may introduce an element of doubt.

central to our faith is tauheed in fact the most paramount belief.

anything that casts doubt on this central belief must be treated with caution.

salaam

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(bismillah) (salam)

We make sajdah infront of Ka'aba.

Angels made sajdah infront of Adam (as) by the command of Allah.

We also make sajdah everyday in our prayers. There so many things infront of us. At least, the air, light, many things are infront of us. We don't worship those things.

So the question is what is it in the Ka'aba. What is Baitullah? What is Adam? What is the reality inside Adam?

What is Sajdah in the real sense? Unless we know and we are aware of the real meaning and how to make the sajdah, we should stick with "physical eyes" intepretations.

But, to be in the safe side, let try not to confuse others. Avoid doing sajdah infront of controvertial figures. Stick to simple way and common ways that is acceptable to the publics.

Unless you intention is clear and your understanding is like Bro Shia Books. The physical actions mean nothing at all. When sajdah is made, the body is left alone, the soul flies and return to .... A spiritual journey to Allah through Imams. In the reality, physical sajdah is just a symbolic. A person perishes the self in the presence of Light of Allah (and the Light of Allah is presence at Baitullah, but not physical Ka'aba).

Don't call others of making shirik. Just let them explain their views. Let hear and understand.

According to Allama Tabatabai, we understand the religion at 3 levels (Shiite Islam):

1. Simplest level (according to the figh). We just follow what the marje told us and don't ask any question. We go by the figh book. Majority of people are in this category.

2. Intellectully. We require reasons and rational for everything we do, including the acts of worships. All of the scholars of Islam are in this category. They justify their beliefs. Some of us also are in this category. We like reasonings. We are not blind followers.

3. Spiritually. Beyond reasons. Unless we see it through our inners eye, we are not going to be satisfies. The journey starts but never end. Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajiuun. We are from Allah and will returns to Him. A journey that we can't the describe the pleasure of it.

Example:

We say Aaauzibillahi minas syaitanni rajeem.

1. The first group will read it because it is recommended to read.

2. The second group will read it because there are reasons and riwayats and justification of why we have to read it.

3. The third group will read it because they see how syaitan in reality is taken out of our body when we read Aaauzibillahi minas syaitanni rajeem. They don't require reasons, they just follow the Light because they see it with their inner eyes.

In the case of sajdah, the heart is important, the intention must be absolutely correct. But how we are going to answer to the first and the second group of people.

My suggestion is satisfy the first group and be safe. Don't create unnecessary misunderstandings among people.

Wallahualam

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Salaam Layman, if I understand what you are saying it is this;

We do sajda in the direction of the Kabah therefore this this the the precedence for doing sajda to the the alam/Zari

The angels did sajda to Hz Adam (as) therfore this indicates it is acceptable to sajda to other than Allah.

Lesser mortals should not do sajda because of the danger of shirk

more spiritual mortals can do sajda because they have a greater spirituality.

Mankind was ordered to pray in the direction of the Kabah and the direction was changed from Jerusalem. This was an explicit order. The reason for this order can be argued back and forth but you cannot extrapolate a specific order to a general order. (It is called taking a liberty)

The angels were ordered to prostrate to Hz Adam (as). Again a specific order, not a general order. this is no indication that Allah then ordered BiBi Hava(as) or any of the children to prostrate themselves to Hz Adam (as), so again citing this as an example is irrelevent.

Finally to your last point about spirituality. If for a moment I accept your statement about spirituality i would argue that man unfortunately by his very nature is arrogant and competitive. Who is to judje when we have achieved this state of enlightenment. If we are to judge ourselves then man will all ways think he is more spiritual then he is and thus rush to do sajda. as we agreed before if for a moment we doubt we are doing sajda then we are doing shirk.

This is why I believe those who are truly enlightened forbid sajda to all but Allah.

salaam

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Walaikum Assalam brother,

Salaam, sorry sister Fatima, I agree I should have references but a lot of info I have gathered over the years is by discussion and at some stage I have seen the references but have not kept them. As indicated by brother Widad is to ask your Maraje for a copy of the ruling. The ruling is unambiguos doing sajda to the zari/Alam is shirk. however the problem arises that there is an element in shiahism that wishes to persist in this shirk. They raise sub-questions of if we are doing sajda in the direction/infront of the alam andour niyat is correct is this acceptable and the answer has been yes as long as the niyat is correct. The question I am posing what is the motive of these individuals in wishing to do sajda despite the warnings. I question

why the need

what the motive

why cannot they sajda at one side.

I question a persons integrity and his true niyat for doing something that may introduce an element of doubt.

central to our faith is tauheed in fact the most paramount belief.

anything that casts doubt on this central belief must be treated with caution.

salaam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok fine as u dont have any references I'll ask my marja'a for this and will post the reply here too Inshallah. :)

And still according to me its not Shirk because SHIRK in its own sense means to partner someone with Allah Almighty & doing sajda or bowing in front of Masoomeen (as) shrine is not making them partner with Allah(swt) as it depends on one's Intention. Alhamdulillah we are sane enough to understand this. :)

Wassalam.

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Mankind was ordered to pray in the direction of the Kabah and the direction was changed from Jerusalem. This was an explicit order. The reason for this order can be argued back and forth but you cannot extrapolate a specific order to a general order. (It is called taking a liberty)

The angels were ordered to prostrate to Hz Adam (as). Again a specific order, not a general order. this is no indication that Allah then ordered BiBi Hava(as) or any of the children to prostrate themselves to Hz Adam (as), so again citing this as an example is irrelevent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Salaams.

I like your line of reasoning (of invalidating Qiyas). Mashallah. Keep it up ! W/s.

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Salaams.

From the knowledge I have learned, doing sajda-e-tazimi (sajdo of respect) is not shirk.

Because Shirk means to associate someone with Allah (swt) in Dhaat, Attributes, or Worship.

But if something is being done that is just respect, not assocition in above three, it is not Shirk.

However, sajda is one of those things that in shariat-e-Muhammad, is exclusive for Allah (swt).

Perhaps the most logical reason for this is that, even though it is not shirk...

This kind of 'immensely adorable' action for ghayrallah, could push people towards shirk.

Bottom Line: It is not Shirk, but it is Haram (Forbidden) from the scholars I've asked.

I also heard that A.Khamenei enforced an injunction forbiding people from doing this at Imam Reza's Shrine.

Also, at one time in a group of sunnis, some people were accusing Shia of sajda to A.Khomeini's shrine.

So not only do Ulema consider it haram and also that it can be a stepping stone to shirk...

It also can give bad impression to others about us (just like blood-letting matam gives bad impression)

Just some food for thought.

Was-salaam.

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Salaam, thanks forgeforth for views. Sajda is a tricky area. The reason I called it shirk is because sajda is associated with worship (look at salaat, bible, ancient japanese reference with emperor.) This association is so close that to do sajda except to Allah is dangerous. I do accept however, equally it may be considered a stepping stone to shirk rather than absolute shirk.

salaam.

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Why would you even want to do Sajdah to anything except for Allah? Out of respect? Because I mean, if we are going down that line, is not Muhammad (S) more deserving of our sajdah than any other person?

:)

BTW, what is zari and alam?

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^(salam)

Zari is the tomb of our Imams. It is a term used for replicas that represent our Imam's tombs. An alam is a flag, the flag of Hazrat Abbas in particular.

And no, Sajda (with the intention of worship) is reserved for Allah alone.

Wa`Salaam

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I dont think there would be a problem if the Alam infront of you holds as much significance as having a chair (for example) infront of you while you pray. To me an alam is a representation of a flag. It holds value for us cause we symbolize it as something that we can connect to certain personalities such as Hadhrat Abbas (as) for example , but I wouldn't be surprised if Yazid's army at that time carried their OWN alam.

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^(salam)

Zari is the tomb of our Imams. It is a term used for replicas that represent our Imam's tombs. An alam is a flag, the flag of Hazrat Abbas in particular.

And no, Sajda (with the intention of worship) is reserved for Allah alone.

Wa`Salaam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All our actions must be for Allah. Neyat qurbatan Allah. So sajda tazimi is also for Allah. Prophet was praying in eid and Imam Hussain came on his back. Angel Jibrail came and told him to keep being in sajda til Hussain wish. Imam Hussain was sitting on prophet, and prophet was praying in sajda.

Prophet was keeping his head down for Hussain after Allahs wish. Why did Hussain do this action and why Allah wanted prophet in sajda longer.

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All our actions must be for Allah. Neyat qurbatan Allah. So sajda tazimi is also for Allah. Prophet was praying in eid and Imam Hussain came on his back. Angel Jibrail came and told him to keep being in sajda til Hussain wish. Imam Hussain was sitting on prophet, and prophet was praying in sajda.

Prophet was keeping his head down for Hussain after Allahs wish. Why did Hussain do this action and why Allah wanted  prophet in sajda longer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And where does it say Angel Jibraeel told him to stay in sajdah?

:D

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All our actions must be for Allah. Neyat qurbatan Allah. So sajda tazimi is also for Allah. Prophet was praying in eid and Imam Hussain came on his back. Angel Jibrail came and told him to keep being in sajda til Hussain wish. Imam Hussain was sitting on prophet, and prophet was praying in sajda.

Prophet was keeping his head down for Hussain after Allahs wish. Why did Hussain do this action and why Allah wanted  prophet in sajda longer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have always looked at the above as an event where Allah (swt) wanted to show what Imam Hussein (as) meant to the Prophet (pbuh) and to Islam. I can be wrong in my reasoning but the event reminds me of the story where the Prophet (pbuh) called a person who was offering his prayers. The man didn't listen to the Prophet (pbuh) at that time and came to the Prophet (pbuh) after he had finished his prayers. The Prophet (pbuh) looking at this, told the man how his calling him should have been given greater priority than the prayers, and hence he should have broken his prayers at once when he was called. This just shows that Allah's will is above all.

Edited by learical

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salaam, fakir-e-Ali, as i have maintened there is a small but unfortunately growing percentage of Shiahs, who are desperate to do sajda and appear to fly in the face of all marje-Taqlid fatwas n this matter.

Of course surprise surprise they reject taqleed as being a deviant institution.

In order to justify heir stance they misrepresent hadiths and really stretch their interpretation.

The person doing the sajda was the holy prophet (pbuh) the person onthe back was Imam hussain (as) The sajda was to Allah. Nowhere in this hadith can I see do sajda to imams, alams,zaris. Di the Holy prophet (pbuh) after this incident instruct his companions to do sajda to Imam Hussain (as) , after Ohad did he instruct the companions to Hz Hamza's grave or in fact to the grave of Jaffar Tayyar, or the grave of Hazrat Bibi Khadija. No in all cases. There is no precendence . You search for spirituality is leading you up the garden path.

salaam

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I would once again advise caution when talking about Sajda-e-Tazeem and further advise members to read Shahdat-e-Uzmaa by Allamah Bu Ali Shah.

I was also reiterate my point and direct you towards so many narrations quoted by Scholars of high repute and bears witness to tazeemi sajda by prophets, angels and sahabas.

I keep my finger on my lips and advise you to read it indepth before you disapprove something - Shirk is not what many of us take it as, its much more than that and is something that most of us are not aware of.

Please Study Islam - Husool-e-Ilm is wajib on all of us regardless of our age, sex, creed, caste or status. Study the religion before its too late.

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