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In the Name of God بسم الله

Homosexuals lynched in Iran

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Officially, the Joint United Nations Program on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) estimates the total HIV population of North Africa, the Middle East, and predominantly Muslim Asia at nearly 1 million people.

At the end of 2003, UNAIDS estimated that as many as 420,000 people in Mali, 180,000 in Indonesia, 150,000 in Pakistan, and 61,000 in Iran had HIV/AIDS.

"Those numbers, however, are severely understated," Miss Kelley and Mr. Eberstadt said in a separate report in Foreign Policy magazine, published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington.

They said UNAIDS figures depended upon surveillance data -- "thus a lack of information can be taken as a lack of infection."

UNAIDS data on the number of people living with HIV/AIDS is completely missing for Afghanistan, Turkey and Somalia, "all nations with large numbers of at-risk populations," they said.

The study cited Iran and Bangladesh as having Muslim governments that seem to be combating the problem effectively.

SOURCE:

Servidor,

What do you suppose should be done with these unfortunate people who have HIV or AIDS and who also happen to be Muslims?

Should they be executed? After all, to use your logic, they must have contracted the disease because they either fornicated in public, or were having homosexual sex, or were committing adultery.

Aren't they guilty, and not worthy of your compassion?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Just because you put a cat in an oven doesnt make it a biscuit.

I merely pointed out that Homosexuals spread and contract Aids much more than the Heterosexuals. Also Muslims who get it would contract it from a wife(or vice versa) and that would be most unfortunate and they would be in my Duaas.

But as a student of Medical Science I would say clowns who want to stick their Johnson in anything that moves and then wonder why Aids is spreading so fast do deserve Capital Punishment. Contracting it from legal sex through mutual love with a spouse is not the same as contracting it from either "Candy" "Cinammon" or "Tyra" from Hooters.

According to your logic the one who jumps with the intention of suicide from a building is the same as the bungee jumper who's cord breaks.

Wasalam

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(bismillah)

In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy); and Allah has increased their disease: and grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves). (The Holy Qur'an 2:10)

No. This is the crux of the topic. If people like you really represent the views of Muslims living in the West then it is no surprise that throughout the world, ordinary people are finding out that they can't tolerate you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You do not have the guts to discuss the crux of the topic, and the root of your ignorance and intolerance, and the hate-filled and bigoted nature of your posts in this thread and others affirms this beyond any doubt.

Lets get into the true crux of the topic. One that you have conveniently chosen to avoid thus far. Here are some of your quotes from this very thread Rezz:

There are times that Islam and some Muslims absolutely disgust me.
The more I learn about you and your religion, the more I realise that Muslims will never be respected in tolerant, Western, democracies.

For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms that grow blind. (The Holy Qur'an 22:46)

Truly the epitome of your blindness and ignorance. An excellent example of what ignorance and intolerance produces in those with lack of faith, blind vision, and bleak hearts. This is the product of Western societies and Western perceptions, to the extent that the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions are changed and corrupted with their efforts of “modernization”, to “better suit the needs of the modern world.” Their words are either disgaruded or changed, the infallible laws of God forgotten, and the teachings of the Prophets rejected, simply because they do not fit the craze and obsessions of the Western world.

A Western world where the “rights” of the homosexual, the absolute low that humanity can reach, are more readily allowed to be an integral part of society and culture, where they are exposed to old and young, to spread their satanic and devilish perception of their “self-identity”. Where the homosexual, is not only recognized, but defended and embraced by a society whose norms and status quo further strays from decency and civility with each passing moment.

A backwards society where prostitution and gambling are more readily legalized, than the banning of abortion, and the killing of the young soul inside the mother’s womb.

A backwards society where the sacred and private act of love between a man and his wife becomes a fiasco to be viewed on television screens and computer monitors for a vast majority if their youth, or where it is bought for a certain amount of money. And in extreme cases, where it is forced upon another.

A backwards society where men and women freely convene and go about half naked, as a expression of their “identity” and self-comfort. And in some cases, the need for clothing is disregarded all together.

A regressive society where sexuality is embraced and publicized, and is the focues of their daily lives. A regressive society where drugs and alcohol are not only commonalities, but essential and integral aspects of their lives.

A society that views its “values” that it preaches so openly and covets so dearly as a law that should be forced upon the world in the name of “freedom” which they have tarnished, and “democracy” which they have marked. A society that thinks itself as a model for the world, and a police force of the world, as if some Godly covenant has designated it so.

Indeed, in their hearts is a disease, a sickness, and Allah SWT has increased that sickness. There are times where such a society absolutely disgusts me, and the more I learn about them and their status quo, the more I realize that their society is devoid or any self-respect, honor, dignity, civility, tolerance, or consideration, but rather it is a society of ignorance and intolerance that regresses and reverts away from these very things on a daily basis.

Here is another one of your quotes:

  But do you see Jews stoning people and keeping slaves.

That's because they crawled out of the Dark Ages.

When will you?

This is the true crux if the issue, and it exemplifies the true inherent nature of your ignorance, intolerance, and lack of vision.

Reminiscent of the vast majority of today’s Christians, and the innovative and corrupted nature of the theology they preach in the name of God and His Prophets, this point of view that somehow the religion that an All-Knowing and All-Wise God has sent down unto the people of this world is something out if the “dark ages” and it sees the need for “modernizing” in order to “better suit the needs of the modern world.” The same modern and Western world that I described above, and that you adhere to so readily.

The only problem is when your definition of sin becomes distorted and corrupted because of the tarnished and bridged nature of your beliefs. A product of “modernizing” a religion.

Answer this question. In Christianity, is being homosexual a sin, or is it only committing the act of homosexuality? Well, that’s the big debate that’s going on right now, isn’t it? The Roman Catholic Church finally decided that being homosexual is in fact NOT a sin, where committing the act of homosexuality is. But nonetheless, the had enough sense to realize that homosexual priests won’t really be a nice new addition to their churches, and that their state of homosexuality gets in the way of their “communion” with Christ.

It’s sort of like saying that believing in satanic and devilish concepts, to the extent that they define who you are is just fine, just as long as you don’t act by those satanic and devilish concepts.

It clearly illustrates why the Christian concept of God’s punishment being reserved for people who only commit “sins of the flesh”, and disregarding the mindset and intention of the person is flawed to say the least. In reality, Allah SWT judges a person not only by the outcome of their actions, but also according to the intentions and beliefs that they hold. After all, can true justice be achieved if God were to disregard the latter? I think not.

Christians would come back and argue that “lust” is not a sin, and even go so far as to describe it as “normal”. In addition, they would argue that some things cannot be “legislated” (and justify disregarding God’s words and changing and corrupting their own beliefs and sacred texts). They would stoop so low as to defend the homosexual and argue that he cannot help it and it is a part of his “identity”. This is the peak of ignorance, idiocy, innovation in religion, and the disregard for God’s words and the examples of his Prophets.

In truth, weather or not lust is a sin depends on intention. Something that is apparently absent in Chirstianity. A person can feel a certain connotation of lust towards their spouse in the privacy of their home. This is indeed normal, and its intentions are completely justified.

But lust becomes a sin where a man looks upon another man (or child) lustfully, or when a woman looks upon another woman lustfully. Westerners describe it as normal, and a quick glance at Western society confirms that, but the regressive and backwards nature of an immoral and uncivil society is not a measure for what is right and what is normal. Not by any standard. That is the intrinsic danger of your belief. A man looking at another man in a lustful matter is NOT normal, and the same in the case of the woman. This is not a matter of their identity or who they are. This is a diseased state of mind; a sickness. Attempts to justify their homosexuality as something they cannot control is analogous to making excuses for the devil. There is no justification for evil.

If you were to at least be minimally honest with yourself, and take an objective look at Christian theology, you would find that homosexuality is the gravest of sins, and that Christian tradition hold that God himself abolished an entire people because of this satanic and devilish act. This diseased mindset that homosexuals and others define themselves by, and that Christian theologists wrongly advocate and justify further demonstrates the erred nature of their belief. Christians have yet to reject the Prophets before Christ, so I shall take their example. Allah SWT sent the Prophet Lut (as), to the Sodomites as a warning and a guide unto them, but they rejected him and did not cease from adultery and homosexuality. Christian traditions as well as Muslim traditions agree that God abolished the people of Sodom because of the severity of their sinned nature. Here, according to both Muslim and Christian doctrine, God Himself AFFIRMS that homosexuality is NOT a state of mind that the homosexual cannot control, and neither is it a definition of who he is. It is a satanic and diseased mindset, and a SIN and its punishment is grave in the eyes of Allah. This is a found in Christian doctrine.

In addition, if one were to consider the inherent nature of homosexuality, and what truly brings it about, one would have to consider the circumstances that helps brings this diseased and satanic ideology about. From a philosophical perspective, if one were to truly look at the issue objectively, one would find that it is the justification of homosexuality as a state of being, and the lack of its condemnation as a state of being that ultimately opens the gate for people to embrace homosexuality, and then commit the act of homosexuality. It is the lack of condemnation for the intention of a person, and lack of regard for his mindset, and rather the justification of his mindset, that makes it possible for him to convince himself that this satanic and devilish concept defines him, and succumb to the ignorant notion that “this is who he is” and that he cannot help it and ultimately commit the act of homosexuality. This is the fatal error in Christian theology, and this is why they have a problem with homosexual priests among their ranks.

This is the crux of the issue, and this is the erred nature of your beliefs and the truth that you cannot cope with. You cling to the “values” and “morals” of a backwards and regressive western society, and to the satanic and devilish concepts that God himself took action on this world against, and abolished according to your own Christian theology and traditions; all in the name of “coming out of the dark ages” and “modernization”. That is the crux of the issue, and it is the root of your ignorance and intolerance.

As I said, your ignorance knows no bounds. May Allah enlighten…

Edited by Learned
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Furthermore I do not recall saying Muslims are Immune to Aids nor that only non-muslims contract the disease. I even showed the statistics for the Heterosexual Aids victims in the U.S then showed that Homsexuals amazingly make up for more than half of Aids victims. The point was in a society where clubbing and sex are frequent between unmarried drunks that Aids will spread extremely fast.

If they want sex get married lol pretty simple be a damn man and look after her and raise a family like the woman deserves. If you are having Homosexual Feelings see a Doctor just as when you think of killing yourself or hear voices its a prove mental illness conclusively not a genetic nor uncurable problem.

In Islam if a Muslim has Homosexual Feelings first read some Quran then Pray then see a wiser person then a doctor. In most cases its simple problems in the childhood as soon as they find the glitch self building and self esteem boosting is in order. Very simple.

Wasalam

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Wow, that's sick.  They're teenage boys, for crying out loud, probably still living with their parents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agree,

part of growing up, tennage might want to "experiment", but that does not make them full fledged homos. I am not saying what they do is right, but to execute them like this in public is crule, especially with all the humilation it causes the parents.

From the look of it, these boys dont look like they had their due process. Where are the Guards ? where are the city offcial? where are the clerics?

and while at it, is there any verse or hadith that back up this punishement?

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Do you believe ahadith can be reliable? Do you believe that there are ahadith of the Prophet that are authentic? If so, how do we know if they are authentic?

Wasalam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will say this one more time.

You claim that Iran is carrying out God's law. Other nations do have capital punishment but they do not throw God into the mix.

I say prove this is God's law.

Peace

Satyaban

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(salam)

Did this actually happen?  For the third time: Anyone have any articles from the BBC or other news websites?

Thanks.

ws

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There was a story last year about two boys being hung for their crime of homosexuality. Whether this is the same story, I have no idea.

More PIX.

The source should be easy to google.

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There was a story last year about two boys being hung for their crime of homosexuality. Whether this is the same story, I have no idea.

More PIX.

The source should be easy to google.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wait, were these the two boys who raped that little child?

Or something?

I remember this story...

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(bismillah)

(salam)

You cannot be killed for being Homosexual you can be killed you for committing Adultery whether straight or as gay as an ace of spades your ridiculous culture loves to slander and malign with false reporting.

This discussion ended so long ago all that is left is echos of ignorance and hypocrisy on behalf of those who's hate for Islam is such that they refuse to even listen. Google it :lol: what kind of self respecting human being goes to google for such a touchy issue?

I would point out a striking incident that is mainly where I started hating the mass media. There was a bombing in Jordan and the news said that they bombers aimed for a wedding party and had a witness who was speaking Arabic and the subtitles lead you to believe that they did aim for the wedding party.

I later read conclusive statements by those who organized it and it was backed by those who were there that it was floors above the wedding party and they had no idea it was going on and only a small part of the roof fell on the party. :o I was shocked the news said they aimed for it why lie for? Why was I so stupid as to think that the Secularist news would give two seconds of thought to a Muslim wedding party is embarrassing.

"Killed for the crime of being Homosexual" be a damn man and admitt it was crowd mentality and not an excecution for any crime. If they had four witnesses it would have been for adultery not being Homosexual.

Wasalam

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(salam)

Has the BBC or any of the other 'respectable' Western media published anything about this lyniching? 

ws

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no it has not appeared in bbc, at least not any time recently and it can't be located on a search. haven't seen it any western media, semi-respectable or not.

a lot of anti-iranian propganda sites publish theswe kinds of pictures, and add their own commentry and stories to it. what do you think condaliza rice's $75 million is going to be used for?

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I will say this one more time.

You claim that Iran is carrying out God's law. Other nations do have capital punishment but they do not throw God into the mix.

I say prove this is God's law.

Peace

Satyaban

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Quran mentions capital punishment, and Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God. Hereis articles brother Servidor has written, showing miracles in the Quran, thus proving the Quran to be the Word of God. However you don’t believe in miracles, you call them “unexplained phenomena” so we can never prove to you that the Quran is the Word of God. But bro satyaban, the issue is not whether you believe that this is the Word of God or not, it is whether the Iranian people believe that this is the Word of God. The Iranian people voted for an Islamic Republic where there is Shariah law. The Iranian people are mostly Muslims (over 90% of them being Shia Muslims). In Shariah law there are many laws that have to be followed and if you disobey some of these laws, this may lead to capital punishment. Again, it’s the Iranian people who voted for this government, believeing that these laws are what God wants.

Satyaban, I fail to understand something. You believe that if God has allowed capital punishment then this was a mistake, yet you have no problem in believing that God has put us on this Earth without giving us any specific laws and regulations.

You believe that God does not allow people to carry out capital punishment, yet He would rather have/allow people being locked up in prison. I ask you to prove that this is what God wants/allows?

Wasalam.

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Muwahida,

"Satyaban, I fail to understand something. You believe that if God has allowed capital punishment then this was a mistake, yet you have no problem in believing that God has put us on this Earth without giving us any specific laws and regulations.

You believe that God does not allow people to carry out capital punishment, yet He would rather have/allow people being locked up in prison. I ask you to prove that this is what God wants/allows?"

I don't think what God "allows" is an issue. Do you mean to say if God did not allow capital punishment when man tried to administer it the hangman's rope would break, the bullet would miss its target.

Man is born with all the information needed. Where ever you travel on this planet and what ever ancient culture you study you will find the same mores of how people should behave. Do you think murder was OK until some holy man said it was not. Do you think stealing was the norm until some intermediary with God said you should not steal? Of course not. Man is born with a priori knowledge. Only people with a malfunction in their brain do not have a guilty conscience. A guilty conscience is the result of violating the morals that are innate.

I am very uncomfortable when some one says God told me this or that and we are to carry out God's punishment. Punishment for crime is to protect society and as is said "repay a debt to society". Punishment is also meant to modify behavior or rehabilitate the wrong doer. This has nothing to do with God. God takes care of its affair on a whole other level. I am of the belief that mankind is a part of creation and not above it at all. Therefore we must be very careful of our destruction of God's creation. Killing our fellow man is a very serious undertaking and should be done only in self defense. I can not accept the idea that someone says these are crimes and these are the punishment God has told me and everyone must abide by them. I believe your Prophet was a very wise man but a man nonetheless just like me or anyone else. I believe God as let each of us know what we need intuitively and updated versions from others are not necessary.

You mentioned locking people up. As I said before criminal justice is for people not God. If some one steals the punishment should fit the crime to modify that person's behavior. Some times people must be removed from society so they can rehabilitate themselves and this is what jails are for. Punishment for crime shouldn't be vengeful because this only produces a person who hates society. For sure some criminals must be locked up for the rest of their life for the protection of society. Barbaric punishments don't make society safer in only produces barbaric people.

Now I ask you who benefits from hanging homosexuals or promiscuous women. Even in a state that has capital punishment how do these crimes warrant death. They have killed no one and homosexuals have been with us from the beginning and society has not been destroyed. Some one listed diseases that might be carried, well you can't jail people or kill them for something they might do. The crime or conspiracy to commit a crime must be proven. BTW guilt of a crime should not be determined by the number of witnesses but the quality of a witnesses testimony. Why should four witnesses automatically be of more value than one?

Finally society has progressed and learned a whole lot more about human behavior in the last two thousand years. The crimes and punishments of two thousand years ago are just not valid anymore.

Peace

Satyaban

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Somebody lynch oot patang ! j/k

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showuser=25381

av-25381.jpg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you know in ancient times they treated the insane horribly and often killed them. I am sure you have great personal interest in that practice not returning. :lol: :lol: :lol: :angel: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Peace

Satyaban

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Simple the Laws are strict because the repercussions are detrimental. They cannot be 4 clowns lol as witnesses you need 4 "Reliable" witnesses and even then you may not be convicted. The Laws on Adultery are so lenient in regards to how ridiculously hard it would be to actually get caught. :wacko:

4 Witnesses who MUST see the penetration if you get caught you are just seriously one low life who is willing to not only compromise the societies right to remain chaste and not see such decadence but also in light of the diseases you and your accomplices are putting the entire society at risk.

As far as Prison lol I come from a long line of Prisoners :angel: I will say first of all Prison breeds decadence. Especially when you place the worst criminals of hardcore mentalities in a small vicinity. Second the mental effects tend to make most Prisoners long for death.

My father died on deathrow and spent most of his adult life in Prisons across the U.S. Far from reforms I can name Pinta Clickas off by heart. La Eme, La Nuestra Familia, the Ayran Brotherhood, Black Guerilla Family, Nazi Low Riders, Sureno Raza and so and so forth. Officials call them the "Major Leagues" of Crime. In fact anybody slightly introduced to Gang Culture knows that Prison is one of the Testing Grounds to becoming a Veterano or O/G.

As far as the "Advancement" of society all I see is running backwards. In a society where sexual anarchy rules, the prisons have as much drugs in them as the streets, suicide rates are unbelievably high, abortion, rape, murder, hallucingens all are the life blood of the so called "advancement".

Almighty Gods Laws must prevail man simply has no right to make up punishments and systems on his own flawed whims as men we are ever leaning towards sin. Power thirsty Kings with Democracy stamped on their foreheads do not prevail over Almighty God.

Please CLICK HERE Its a great article by Dr. William Lane Craig, he is a Christian Doctor of Theology. This article sheds light on why man cannot make up Laws for other men. This in itself would imply that one man is superior to the latter we are all creations and should obey the Creator.

Satyban you are speaking from programming if you were raised under Mosaic Law this would be normal, since you are raised in a system where the structure leans on a false sense of leniancy (have a look at some pictures of San Quentin :cry: ) you call it Barbaric. I call caging someone barbaric.

Death is the first step to the real life Jesus (as) said in a Hadith ‘Verily, this world is merely a bridge, so cross over it, and do not become preoccupied with it.’ (Bihàr, 14, 319, 20)

‘Verily the evil doer is infectious, and the associate of the wicked is brought down. So beware of those with whom you associate.’ (Jesus (as) Kàfí, 2, 640, 4)

Wasalam

Edited by Servidor
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Simple the Laws are strict because the repercussions are detrimental. They cannot be 4 clowns lol as witnesses you need 4 "Reliable" witnesses and even then you may not be convicted. The Laws on Adultery are so lenient in regards to how ridiculously hard it would be to actually get caught.  :wacko:

4 Witnesses who MUST see the penetration if you get caught you are just seriously one low life who is willing to not only compromise the societies right to remain chaste and not see such decadence but also in light of the diseases you and your accomplices are putting the entire society at risk.

As far as Prison lol I come from a long line of Prisoners  :angel: I will say first of all Prison breeds decadence. Especially when you place the worst criminals of hardcore mentalities in a small vicinity. Second the mental effects tend to make most Prisoners long for death.

My father died on deathrow and spent most of his adult life in Prisons across the U.S. Far from reforms I can name Pinta Clickas off by heart. La Eme, La Nuestra Familia, the Ayran Brotherhood, Black Guerilla Family, Nazi Low Riders, Sureno Raza and so and so forth. Officials call them the "Major Leagues" of Crime. In fact anybody slightly introduced to Gang Culture knows that Prison is one of the Testing Grounds to becoming a Veterano or O/G.

As far as the "Advancement" of society all I see is running backwards. In a society where sexual anarchy rules, the Prison have as much drugs in them as the streets, suicied rates are unbelievably high, abortion, rape, murder, hallucingens all are the life blood of the so called "advancement".

Almighty Gods Laws must prevail man simply has no right to make up punishments and systems on his own flawed whims as men we are ever leaning towards sin. Power thirsty Kings with Democracy stamped on their foreheads do not prevail over Almighty God.

Please CLICK HERE Its a great article by Dr. William Lane Craig, he is a Christian Doctor of Theology. This article sheds light on why man cannot make up Laws for other men. This in itself would imply that one man is superior to the latter we are all creations and should obey the Creator.

Wasalam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sooo true brother

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Muwahida,

"Satyaban, I fail to understand something. You believe that if God has allowed capital punishment then this was a mistake, yet you have no problem in believing that God has put us on this Earth without giving us any specific laws and regulations.

You believe that God does not allow people to carry out capital punishment, yet He would rather have/allow people being locked up in prison. I ask you to prove that this is what God wants/allows?"

I don't think what God "allows" is an issue. Do you mean to say if God did not allow capital punishment when man tried to administer it the hangman's rope would break, the bullet would miss its target.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No I am saying, if you believe that God would rather have people being locked up in prison, then prove it to me.

Man is born with all the information needed. Where ever you travel on this planet and what ever ancient culture you study you will find the same mores of how people should behave. Do you think murder was OK until some holy man said it was not. Do you think stealing was the norm until some intermediary with God said you should not steal? Of course not. Man is born with a priori knowledge. Only people with a malfunction in their brain do not have a guilty conscience. A guilty conscience is the result of violating the morals that are innate.

I agree with you in that everyone has similar values and that stealing, murder etc., is unacceptable in ALL societies. This is because God created us this way- it is stated in the Quran:

[shakir 91:7] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,

[shakir 91:8] Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;

[shakir 91:9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it,

[shakir 91:10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.

You mentioned earlier that we believe or worship the same God. I agree with you. Whatever religion a person follows, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, etc., in the end they all believe in an Absolute and Perfect God. The reason why everyone believes in this One God, I believe is because it has been instilled in every soul and it is only natural to believe in Him.

However, if you look in societies around the world, there are some things that one society finds acceptable, while another society doesn’t (although there are many things that we all have in common). One example of this and I have brought it up earlier with you, is homosexuality and polygamy. In Western societies, homosexuality is considered acceptable, but polygamy is seen as unacceptable and wrong. If you go to Muslims countries (especially Arab countries), polygamy is acceptable, but homosexuality is seen as unacceptable and wrong.

Now, how are we supposed to know what is acceptable to God or not? What God allows or not? Which is right and which is wrong? Which will we be punished for, and which one will we not be punished for? Or are both of them wrong?

I am very uncomfortable when some one says God told me this or that and we are to carry out God's punishment. Punishment for crime is to protect society and as is said "repay a debt to society". Punishment is also meant to modify behavior or rehabilitate the wrong doer. This has nothing to do with God. God takes care of its affair on a whole other level. I am of the belief that mankind is a part of creation and not above it at all. Therefore we must be very careful of our destruction of God's creation. Killing our fellow man is a very serious undertaking and should be done only in self defense. I can not accept the idea that someone says these are crimes and these are the punishment God has told me and everyone must abide by them. I believe your Prophet was a very wise man but a man nonetheless just like me or anyone else. I believe God as let each of us know what we need intuitively and updated versions from others are not necessary.

Satyaban I feel that you are defining God, you are dictating what God should or shouldn’t do. Tell me, who knows more the creation or the Creator? My Creator knows me more than I know myself, therefore the Word of the Creator is more Just and right then the words of the creation. ThereforeIannot agree with you when you say punishing someone “ha nothing to do with God.”

I do agree with you when you say “I am of the belief that mankind is a part of creation and not above it at all. Therefore we must be very careful of our destruction of God's creation”. And that is why capital punishment is only carried out when there are four Just people who see the person committing the crime. The rules on carrying out punishments in Islam is very strict, inorder that we are careful of the “destruction” of God’s creation.

You mentioned locking people up. As I said before criminal justice is for people not God. If some one steals the punishment should fit the crime to modify that person's behavior. Some times people must be removed from society so they can rehabilitate themselves and this is what jails are for. Punishment for crime shouldn't be vengeful because this only produces a person who hates society. For sure some criminals must be locked up for the rest of their life for the protection of society. Barbaric punishments don't make society safer in only produces barbaric people.

As I asked above- who knows more, the Creator or the creation? Wouldn’t the Creator know more about the way His creation should work and what would make His creation live in a more better society? Obviously God would know more about how to deal with those who commit crimes, more than His own creation would know. Who knows more about the justice of people, man or God?

You say “Punishment for crime shouldn't be vengeful because this only produces a person who hates society.” I don’t understand, how is punishing someone for a crime “vengeful’? And isn’t a person who has been locked up in jail going to produce hate towards the society? You also say “criminals must be locked up for the rest of their life for the protection of society”, and that is why the death penalty is given to those criminals- for the protection of society.

Now I ask you who benefits from hanging homosexuals or promiscuous women. Even in a state that has capital punishment how do these crimes warrant death. They have killed no one and homosexuals have been with us from the beginning and society has not been destroyed.

Homosexuality is a destruction, it is against the laws of God. Once you start accepting these behaviours in a society, bad things will happen in the society. We are not saying homosexuals will go out and kill people, but as someone mentioned earlier they will carry diseases and they will spread. Now that Western societies have accepted homosexuality, more and more people are becoming homosexual. I do not believe this is normal. It is growing and I don’t doubt that it will reach a stage where atleast half or the majority of Western countries will be homosexual. This is dangerous for the human species.

Some one listed diseases that might be carried, well you can't jail people or kill them for something they might do. The crime or conspiracy to commit a crime must be proven.

Exactly. Noone can punish someone if there is insufficient evidence to show that they have committed the crime. When did we say the contrary?

BTW guilt of a crime should not be determined by the number of witnesses but the quality of a witnesses testimony. Why should four witnesses automatically be of more value than one?

These have to be four JUST witnesses, not any old person who might have seen the people committing the crime. Even if there was 1, or 2 or 3 JUST people who saw the person committing the crime, that will not be enough evidence to prove that this person is guilty.

Finally society has progressed and learned a whole lot more about human behavior in the last two thousand years. The crimes and punishments of two thousand years ago are just not valid anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prisons were used thousands of years ago, how is that “progressive”? I also cannot see how putting someone in prison when we know they will have psychological problems because of it, is humane and “progressive”?

Satyaban, I see that what you have written is your opinion. I believe that you are saying what God should or shouldn’t do, you are removing God out of the picture. You believe that punishing someone has got nothing to do with God. I disagree, however you can have your opinion. But I would like to ask you , what do you believe is the purpose of our existence? The Quran says "I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me"(51:56). Do you agree with this verse? If so, define Worship. In Islam, worship does not only mean praying 5 times a day, worship means to obey all the commandments of Allah (s.w.t) in every aspect of our lives. In Islam there are rules for every aspect in life, so that Muslims can fulfill the purpose of their existence, i.e. to Worship Allah.

I see that you have a secular view on things. My problem is not your secular views, my problem is your belief that your views is what God wants. This is why I would like you to prove this to me.

Wasalam.

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