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Hadeeth Al Kisa removed from Mafateeh al Jinan

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(salam)

TAKEN FROM HAYAT AL QULUB VOLUME 1 BY ALLAMAH MOHAMMAD BAQIR MAJLISI (ra)........

The Holy prophet said when Adam(As) made a mistake he said the following words "O Allah forgive by Mohammad(saw) and his ahlul bayt(as), when nuh(as) ark was drowning nuh said the following words "O Allah for the sake of Prophet Mohammad(saw) and his ahlul bayt(as)., so Allah saved him. When Prophet IbrahimAs) was about to be thrown in the fire by nimrood, he prayed to Allah to save him for the sake of Prophet Mohammad(saw) and his ahlul bayt(As), so Allah saved him and kept him safe. When Prophet Musa(As) cast down his staff, he was afraid, and he prayed to Allah through Mohammad and his ahlul bayt(as) to overcome his fear. O jew! If musa had been present in my time and had no faith in me and my prophethood his own prophethood would not have benefited him. O Jew! Al-Mahdi is from my progeny when he would reappear, Prophet Isa(as) Ibn maryam will descend for his assitance and peform the prayers behind him.

So this hadiths shows the true status of the ahlul bayt(as).......its AMAZING!

there are even traditions in tafseerul burhan that the reason prophet Job(as) and Prophet Yunus(as) got into affliction was because they denied the wilayat of Ali(as).....

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(bismillah)

there are even traditions in tafseerul burhan that the reason prophet Job(as) and Prophet Yunus(as) got into affliction was because they denied the wilayat of Ali(as).....

astaghfirullah whats this talk?

mooinoddin:

brother we already have ebnough trouble and diferences between shia sources you bring forward sunnie sources?

doesnt that make the study even more complicated?

and dont we say sunnies are wrong so what proof is thier sources?

any hadeeth that makes shirk is rejected regardless of its in sunnie or not sunnie books

god never associates people with him in his ruling

Edited by alimohamad40

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astaghfirullah whats this talk?

any hadeeth that makes shirk is rejected regardless of its in sunnie or not sunnie books

What would you say to the below ayats of Quran ?

[shakir 97:1] Surely We revealed it on the grand night.

The word here is WE and not I - Who would you include in WE ?

Shakir 70:40] But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able

Ofcourse the Speaker of Quran is Allah Wajib al Wajood - If you agree that it is Allah than you will have to accept that Lord of the Easts and the Wests is someone other than Allah - as one is taking the swear and the other one is upon whom the swear is being taken.

and again Quran is using the word WE and not I - May i most respectfully ask you who the quran refering to when it uses the Plural form - Quran does use "I" for Allah at a number of Places so usage of Plural indicates there are others indicated in the ayaats.

Above was from Quran - now Come to Ziarat Moula Ali (as) where you confirm that " I testify that you are Hazir and Nazir"

Ziarat -e-Imam Hussain (as) makhsoos dar Mah-e-Rajab : quotes As Salam o Alaika Ya Aaal Allah

We all know that Moula Ali (as) is Bismillah, Ba of Bismilla and the dot under the Ba of Bismillah so I end it with the words of Syed Al Khomaini:

Qtd from Tafseer Surah Al Hamd Page 18 " Zahar Al Wajood Bay Bismmillah...."

I have plenty of quotations from Ayaat, Ahadith, Ziaraat-e-Aimma, Duas from Aimma (as) in Quran, Mafatey Al Jinan, Sahifa Al Zahra, Sahifa Alawi and many more books which you will call Shirk - How many wil you reject - Do you have the capacity to reject Quranic Ayaats too because Allah is including someone other than thyself at great many locations.

May i most respectfully refer you to the Sermon number 1 in Nahjul Balagha in which Moula Ali (as) has explained Touheed very eloquently - Please i request you to read it a few times - over and over again until you grasp every word of that khutba which relates to touheed.

Its a suggestion from a brother - I hope you will not ignore it and that you will study the basics of touheed before you call something a Shirk specially if it is a hadith.

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(salam)

This is what I have heard: no proof

Shaykh Abbas Qummi when compiling Mafatih-ul Jinaan did NOT include Hadith-e-Kisaa. It was added later to the end/in the margins in some copies. Now, the gvt are trying to put it back into the form that Shaykh Qummi had it.

This does not necessarily mean that it is not correct, as for example, the Ziyarat of Zaynab bint Ali is not in the Mafatih either - which does not mean such a ziyarat does not exist.

Also the varying versions of Hadith-e-Kisaa mean that there is no dispute as to whether the event happened, just the wording of it..

ws

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Shaykh Abbas Qummi when compiling Mafatih-ul Jinaan did NOT include Hadith-e-Kisaa. It was added later to the end/in the margins in some copies. Now, the gvt are trying to put it back into the form that Shaykh Qummi had it.

Namaz-e-Juma was not a part of Mafati ul Jinan and some publications still dont have it : why is that not being excluded by the Govt ?

or is it that only Fazail-e-Aimma(as) are being targeted ?

Think deeply please..................................

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Holy Prophet(saw)said " 2,000 years before the creation of Adam(As) I and my Ahlul Bayt(as) were standing next to the throne (arsh) of Allah reciting the tasbih, and the angels were imitating us, and this is how the angels and mankind know how to recite tasbih! (Imam Musnad Ibne Hanbal) THE BIGGEST SUNNI BOOK!

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(bismillah)

even some people say imam Ali is the face of god in surat alrahman , also they say imam ali is qul how allahu ahad and some say hadeeths that " atakforo bi3ali wahowa khalaqaka" " do you deny ali and he created you"

also some say " youhathirokum Allah nafsah " " god warns you from himself" is about imam ali (as)

there are ahadeeth being said that imam ali is awal ahkir ba6in zahir all the properties and attributes of Allah

there is another hadeeth i heard which is similar to kisaa hadeeth but even worse its propably by fatimites or some thing, its a hadeeth qudsy and Allah is saying to prophet mohamad " oh mohamad if not for you i wouldnt have made the orbits and if not for ali i would not have created you and if not for fatima i would not have created both of you"

the way i see it is this is the path of " the christians of my nation"

and the sunnies took the path of " the jews of my nation" as the prophet said

lets not forget that imam ali (as) said " two types will get destroyed in me , a lover extremist and a proud hater"

lets not be from any of them.

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alimohamad40

you have failed to comment on Quranic Ayats that i have quoted.

Do you consider that a Shirk too as Quran is clearly declaring that a few others were involved with God Almighty in: revelation of Quran, Creation of this universe and in many other things as Quran is using the plural form WE and not the singular form I.

Its so easy for you to point your fingers on Quran Natiq but the question is would you dare point your finger on Quran Samit ?

Lets hear what you have to say about the Ayats.

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[shakir 97:1] Surely We revealed it on the grand night.

The word here is WE and not I - Who would you include in WE ?

Mr. or Ms. Shia Books, Salaams.

What exactly are you trying to imply? That Ahlul-Bayt (as) revealed it?

Have you ever even thought of the ridiculous absurdity of such statement?

After all, it was being revealed to Muhammad (sawa), so what do you say,..

Imam Ali (as) was revealing it perhaps? Think where all this ghuloo is taking you !

The plain answer is that Allah (swt) sometimes uses "We" for Himself, and sometimes "I".

Infact such plural and singular meanings for single entity are valid in more languanges than Arabic.

Plural simply emphasizes the gradioseness of the entity.

Above was from Quran - now Come to Ziarat Moula Ali (as) where you confirm that " I testify that you are Hazir and Nazir"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is plainly pure Shirk !

It is the kind of Shirk common in the Barelvi sunnis, and a shame to see a shia claiming it.

Only Allah (swt) is "Hazir" (everywhere) and "Naazir" (Seeing everything).

Your claiming this for Imam Ali (as) is nothing short of declaring him a god !

I think we can now see how over the ages there were ghullati sects spinning out...

May Allah (swt) protect us from exxagerations, Inshallah.

Was-salaam.

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(salam) 

we have traditions suggesting the only reason prophets(As) became prophets(As) was because they accepted ahlul bayts wilayat.......hadeeth e kisa is authentic but obviously not according to mr. raysahiri  :dry:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Salaams.

Perhaps you will educate us on when, why and how they were "tested" for it?

Perhaps you will also mention how Qur'an misses such an extremely important point, if indeed it was the case?

Perhaps also tell us as to why there is no record of prophets claiming the same allegation for creation of universe?

I dont really see any rationality in your statement (Besides blind-following selected questionable ahadith).

Perhaps we should go back to my previous statement, that we need to understand "Prophethood".

Prophets were sent by God to remind people about God. They were chosen and groomed for this mission.

Focus ! The mission was about reminding people about God.

It has nothing to do with Wilayat (irrespective of the fact that any pious person would accept it).

Was-salaam.

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(salam)

-Actually not just this world but the whole Universe, seen and unseen, according to Shaykh Arif. 

-Testing them in this world raises their status even higher. 

-If I were to say Allah created this world out of love for us, so that we may be tested and fulfill our potential...would there be a problem with this statement?  I dont think so, so why the problem when we say the same for Ahlul Bayt [as]?

ws

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You test (by giving of opportunity) out of Mercy. But you reward out of Love (of the deeds performed).

Allah (swt) can create a heaven for Ahlul-Bayt (as) out of His love, not a torture-prison.

I will not go with the statement that God created this world out of love for us.

Rather, He created it as a Test for all Mankind (including Ahlul-Bayt (as)) and Jinn (amongst others)

And out of his love for the good deeds done by the Momineen-Mohsineen, He has created heavens in reward.

And out of His wrath, he has created Hells for those who bear his Anger, and the Strayers.

____________________

ps: Returning to your style, I can very clearly see where you are going.

You are simply over-trying to bend, force and adjust the hadith to fit somehow...

i.e. Bending Interpretation beyond its back to somehow force a "validity" on the hadith.

I do not think this is proper academic etiquette.

Forgive me if I offended you in any way. It is not my intention.

In my heart, I wish the best for all of us Inshallah.

Was-salaam.

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I seriously feel like laughing out loud at your replies - Im sorry no offence to you personally - In arabic plural is only used for more than 2 (atleast three or more) and in Arabic there is no such tradition of using plural for one self.

But anyways, what about

Shakir 70:40] But nay! I swear by the Lord of the Easts and the Wests that We are certainly able

Ofcourse the Speaker of Quran is Allah Wajib al Wajood - If you agree that it is Allah than you will have to accept that Lord of the Easts and the Wests is someone other than Allah - as one is taking the swear and the other one is upon whom the swear is being taken.

and what about the usage of WE here.

As for the Ziarath of Imam Ali (as) - Im not the one who has compiled it - it is a part of Mafatey and every scholar, every follower , every Zair e Imam Ali (as)recites it - So your fatwa of Shirk goes to every one including your self if you are a Shia as you would have recited it as well. Not my fault is it ?

What about Ziarat Imam Hussain (as) makhsoos dar Mah-e-Rajab: As Salam Alaika Ya Aal Allah :

Ofcourse im not a compiler of this ziarat too, What would you say to the Ayat Ali Laam Meem, Zaalaikal Kitab Laraib............

can Zalika ever be used fo This ? Lugatal Arabia quotes Hazaihi for this and Zaalika for that.

Need More ? I can go on and on quoting Ayaats and quotes from Books compiled by the high ranking scholars of past and present including the biggest names in scholarly world of Shian e Haider e Karrar.

Did you even bother to read the first sermon of Nahjul Balagha ? or is that unauthentic too in your eyes ?

No offence brother, but i have to say this that : You will have to leave Quran, Nahjul Balaghan, Sahifa Kamila, SahifaAlawi, Sahifa Fatimiya, Sahifa raza, Mafatey al Jinan, Tohfatul Awamand all other books completely if you continue to follow your way of thinking as every book, every text, every revelation from Almighty contains fazail e Ahlulbait (as) or are against the enemies of Ahlul Bait (as). How Many faail will you bycott ? How many Ayats would you reject or try to twist the meaning of - You will get tired but the fazail would keep staring you unless you join the likes of Fahri who asked for Azaabif it was from Almighty.

Please remember that rejection of Quranic Ayats or twisting the meaning to save faces would result in exclusion from Islam and there is no second opinion about it from any Islamic scholar of this world.

Allah Says in Quran the he created the universe with his TWO Hands - Now you can either say that Nauzobillah Allah has hands which you know that he cannot have or you will have to accept that some one does it for Allah by his order.

One last question to end this post:

Is Allah Rahman biz Zaat or is he Rahman bis Sifat ? and when did he became a Khaliq ? Remember that something or some one has to be created for the claim to be justified and Allah Wajib al Wajood does not claim unjustly - Remember One of the sifat of Allah is Aadil too ? so is he aadil biz zaat or is he aadil bis /sifat ?

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for ziarat al aushoura

i trully dont beleive this bcuz it is allowed in islam 2 be able 2 curse those who Allah give permission so basically the ememys of islam

i also my self have had personal experiences with ziarat al aushoura and also know many ppl 2 that have had this experiences (u know the hole 40 days thing) and wallahi they have gotten they hajjat answered on the 40th day

imam khameini also reccommmends this

and also cursing the enemys is acually very good bcuz wen u do so it strengthens the hate have 4 them and in islam we are 2 hate for Allah adn love 4 Allah

also DONNOT BELEIVE EVERYTHING U HEAR ESPEACIALLY ON SHIACHAT i think this is a common mistake ppl make inshallah i have sent this 2 many schollars including the speacial branch of qom (whic is imam khameinis office) and i also kno wmany ppl in iran now that r very aware of whats going on in iran

also same thing with hadith al kisa i dont beleive this is true either

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(bismillah)

shia books:

Is Allah Rahman biz Zaat or is he Rahman bis Sifat ? and when did he became a Khaliq ? Remember that something or some one has to be created for the claim to be justified and Allah Wajib al Wajood does not claim unjustly - Remember One of the sifat of Allah is Aadil too ? so is he aadil biz zaat or is he aadil bis /sifat ?

what you talking about? you are limiting god like this

Allah is not divisible his sifat is = his zaat ,meaning his attributes = himself

otherwise unity colapses

And Allah is khaliq before he creates and he is adel before he makes adl between creatures. Because his attributes are equivilant to himself and are allways the same and dont change.

because he doesnt undergo time

because he is azaly (eternal)

because he is qadeem his attributes are qadeem too because his attributes are himself. so his attributes are eternally the same and never change and he doesnt need to create to have the attribute of creator nor does he need to be fair to creatures to have the attribute of justice.

Most of the versus you qouted have nothing to do with your point. You are trying to say the masoomeeen created all the universe and creation and they have wylayah takwynya over the creation because Allah used the word "we" instead of "I" so he made a shareek for himself in his attributes including his attribute of creation. thats where your heading right?

Answer:

One of gods attributes that your not understanding is " almutakabbir" " the arrogant" he never lets creatures share with him his rulership nor any of his attributes including creation.

quraan " wala youshriku fee hukmihi ahada" " never associates some one with him in his rulership"

if the Masoomeen (as) created the universe and know every single thing that happened and will happen as you people claim then why didnt they prevent death or make more good deeds on earth by using thier powers?

i mean the prophet is saying " if i had the knowledge of the unseen i would have done more good"

so this prooves he did his best and if he had more power he would have used all of it to do good.

why did imam riza (as) eat the poisonus fruit?

many say that he knew he was dieing but he took it anyway, but isnt this action of his against the wisdom? isnt killing the self haraam in islam?

they say Allah told him that he must die so he did.

and Allah says " no nafs knows in which land it will die"

The whole quraan is against these claims because we have the stories of prophets not knowing many things in many cases.

Even the strongest prophet in terms of kingdom " sulayman" who had the wind under his command and the animals and the jin and humans under his command he still didnt know about many things.

reading the story of sulaiman in the quraan:

First why did he ask the afreet to bring balqees for him while he can do the job himself? so this prooves he couldnt and some others had more knowledge than him in specific things

Secondly why does he say " I will kill the bird or tourture him or he must come to me with a good reason? "

Thirdly why does the bird say " i have sighted what you havent and i have come to you from sabaa with great news"

this also prooves the bird saw things that sulaymaan didnt see eventhgouh sulaymaan was the masoom

When we moove to musa's story similarly we see musa having jahl about events that were happening while khidr knew about them.

thats why he was asking, why did you do this? why did you kill the kid ? why did you put hole in the ship? why did you build the wall for these bad people? ........ all invalid questions proove that he didnt know eventhough he was the masoom (as) and not only that but from the 5 ulilazm

And imam hasan who took food from his own wife with poison and didnt know.

Allah says " no nafs knows what it will do tomorow and in which land it will die"

this is general and doesnt exclude the prophets because they are nafs too otherwise Allah would have excluded them.

and the prophet says " i do not have ilm alghaib i am nothing but a human who gets the messege and wahi"

and finally imam ali says : " two will get destroyed in me a lover exaggerator and an arrogant hater"

so lets not be from any of them

ws

Edited by alimohamad40

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(salam)

alimohammad40 ure posts just are BS.where are the references, the quote from holy prophet(saw) is from a sunni book about ilm ul ghaib and we shias dont believe in the drunken sunni narrators, the quote from hazrat ali(As) is from nahjul balagha, and the exaggerators are the ghulats, who consider hazrat alI(As) as god, and hazrat ali(As) wanted to burn them refer to nahjul balagha, also imam reza(As) knew thats in the will of Allah for him to be killed, since he had ilm ul ghaib, some people are just closer to Allah :blush:

masalam

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It seems like im conversing with someone who has his eyes, heart and mind closed and who is not ready to understand Quran. But Anyways, I end this conversation with a sermoon from Nahjul Balaghan - If you are a Shia you'll accept your mistake if you are not a shia i have nothing to discuss with you - Simply not interested to ague with Ahlul Sunna.

http://al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm

" ............. The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence...... "

ABOVE SHOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR FOLLOWERS OF IMAM ALI (as)

Edited by Shia Books

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(bismillah)

shia books:

what you talking about? you are limiting god like this

Allah is not divisible his sifat is = his zaat  ,meaning his attributes = himself

otherwise unity colapses

And Allah is khaliq before he creates and he is adel before he makes adl between creatures. Because his attributes are equivilant to himself and are allways the same and dont change.

because he doesnt undergo time

because he is azaly (eternal)

because he is qadeem his attributes are qadeem too because his attributes are himself.  so his attributes are eternally the same and never change and he doesnt need to create to have the attribute of creator nor does he need to be fair to creatures to have the attribute of justice.

Most of the versus you qouted have nothing to do with your point. You are trying to say the masoomeeen created all the universe and creation and they have wylayah takwynya  over the creation because Allah used the word "we" instead of "I" so he made a shareek for himself in his attributes including his attribute of creation. thats where your heading  right?

Answer:

One of gods attributes that your not understanding is " almutakabbir" " the arrogant"  he never lets creatures share with him his rulership nor any of his attributes including creation.

quraan " wala youshriku fee hukmihi ahada" " never associates some one with him in his rulership"

if the Masoomeen  (as)  created the universe and know every single thing that happened and will happen as you people claim then why didnt they prevent death or make more good deeds on earth by using thier powers?

i mean the prophet is saying " if i had the knowledge of the unseen i would have done more good"

so this prooves he did his best and if he had more power he would have used all of it to do good.

why did imam riza  (as)  eat the poisonus fruit? 

many say that he knew he was dieing but he took it anyway, but isnt this action of his against the wisdom?  isnt killing the self haraam in islam?

they say Allah told him that he must die so he did.

and Allah says " no nafs knows in which land it will die"

The whole quraan is against these claims because we have the stories of prophets not knowing many things in many cases.

Even the strongest prophet in terms of kingdom " sulayman" who had the wind under his command and the animals and the  jin and humans under his command he still didnt know about many things. 

reading the story of sulaiman in the quraan:

First why did he ask the afreet to bring balqees for him while he can do the job himself? so this prooves he couldnt and some others had more knowledge than him in specific things 

Secondly why does he say " I will kill the bird or tourture him or he must come to me with a good reason? "

Thirdly why does the bird say " i have sighted what you havent and i have come to you from sabaa with great news"

this also prooves the bird saw things that sulaymaan didnt see eventhgouh sulaymaan was the masoom

When we moove to musa's story similarly we see musa having jahl about events that were happening while khidr knew about them.

thats why he was asking, why did you do this? why did you kill the kid ? why did you put hole in the ship? why did you build the wall for these bad people? ........ all invalid questions proove that he didnt know eventhough he was the  masoom  (as)  and not only that but from the 5 ulilazm

And imam hasan who took food from his own wife with poison and didnt know.

Allah says " no nafs knows what it will do tomorow and in which land it will die"

this is general and doesnt exclude the prophets because they are nafs too otherwise Allah would have excluded them.

and the prophet says " i do not have ilm alghaib i am nothing but a human who gets the messege and wahi"

and finally imam ali says : " two will get destroyed in me a lover exaggerator and an arrogant hater"

so lets not be from any of them

ws

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Subhanallah Br. Ali Muhammad. You are right on the Mark !

You are the kind of Shia that the Ahlul-Bayt (as) would be proud of.

One who accepts their Imamah and Ismat, but also does not exxagerate them.

May Allah (swt) bless you & grant you success in your endeavors for Islam.

May He guide us and bless us all to open our eyes and think with straight minds.

Was-salaam.

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Subhanallah Br. Ali Muhammad. You are right on the Mark !

You are the kind of Shia that the Ahlul-Bayt  would be proud of.

http://al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm

" ............. The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Did you not read the above quote of Nahjul Balagha or you dont consider Nahjul Balagha as authentic ?

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(salam)

let's take the middle road shall we :o

there are three division of names, some fall in the category of others,

God's self

God's glory

God's manifestation of his glory

see the end of suratal hashr regarding that

The word 'God' is just letters, it has a meaning, the meaning is something above words, its above comprehension, his names reveal a bit about this uncomperhansable reality or help connect you to the reality, his names are created as a means to recognizing him, read al-kafi ppl!! he is above all these attributes ofcourse, that is what is meant by denying him attributes, meaning, recongizing that his names are means and the attribute in itself is not him and by his ahadiya reality, all sefaat miss him and fall short, every describer fall short in describing him, his names are a means not an end, the name Creator means he is the one one created us, this name did not exist forever, the words, the langue, the idea we get in our head came into being, however who is our creator and the glory that the name 'Creator' leads to is eternal, again real al-kafi, its amazing!! every seeing including Mohammad (saw) who saw the most utmost possible decree of his divine glory, and seeing that God was pleased with, and will continue to see and hold this unique position and his pure house will contine to follow him in that regards, as he is the hijaab and his ahlulbayt (as) is his eloquent tongues just as Harun (as) was for Musa (as) and they are his hands and they are the light of God, they themselves are the reality of ismal husna as they are the purified in their perception, a perception without doubt, and we are heading towards this through them as this is the very same face that will remain and all else will dissappear mentioned in suratal Rahman, this is a reality, blessed is the name of God, the name we all exist in! there is only one will, that is of God's will, so whether Malikal mawt kills u or not, it does not change the fact it is God who did it, the intercession belongs to God aslwell, the sheefaat of Mohammad (saw) is because of his best vision of God's mercy and glory, so we hope to be dealt with not what we ask of God or think of him, but what Mohammad (saW) thinks of him and inshallah God will continue to increase him in that regards and this benefits all of creation, wiliyatal takweeni is the amana and the writtenb Quran is the tanzeel of that, however the real Quran is in a hidden book above and high ofcourse, Quran is not a collection of words, it is God's eternal truth

the Ahamdiya (the most praiseful reality-Mohammad (as) ) risalaat and nubuwa and the alawiya (highest , Ali (as) and Ahlulbayt (as)) hidiya and wiliyah is a reality written on all creation, the fact is the most best of all possible glory to be revealed which will continuesly guide us eternally and thus for ever we will be returning to our lord is a must that if was not possible, because of God;s infinite mercy, would not have created the universe, the alawiyatal baytha hidya reality could have been entrusted to the same person entrused with the message, but just like Harun (as) excelled with the knowing the ways of the people and their dialect, and being more good and eloquent in that then Musa (as), and while Musa (as) experience just takleem and his brother Harun (as) was revealed just like other Prophets (as), their is a similar relationship between Mohammad (saw) and Ali (as), Mohammad (saw) in the munthar and Ali (as) the had, the signs were entrusted to them and they are the eloquents tongues of the Rasool (saw) and the gates to the city of knowlegde, is this not an honour enough? do we have to attribute them lordship now?? when Mohammad (SaW) says Ali (as) is to him like the body is to the soul, or Harun to Musa or the branch to the trunk, is this not enough as an honour?? the fact is recognizing this truth, u will know ahlulbayt (as) are God's treasures on his earth and pay attention to the verses about people asking Mohammad (saw) for a sign, and verses about how to bring a sign, then think of hadithal thaqalain, the poeple who exaggerate adn the people who miss them are blind and in their fustration are trying to put out God's light

ma'asalamaa

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Allah Wajib ul Wajood says " I create the with my 2 hands" Who is Yad Ullah ?

Allah Says He sees us with his Eyes - WHO is Ain Ullah ?

Who is Lisan Ullah with which Allah Speaks ?

Who is Nafs Ullah ?

Surah Juma says run towards Zikr Ullah - Who is Zikr Ullah ?

Who is Bismillah, the Ba of Bismillah and the dot under the Ba ?

When we say Allah has created with his 2 hands (Khaliq) we have to bear in mind that there is someone who is the MAZHAR of this Sifat KHALIQ and Allah means that it was created through YAD ULLAH.

When we say "Allah Says" e.g. KUN (fa ya Kun) we have to bear in mind that his words would come to us through Lisan Ullah

When we say Allah Hears what we say we have to bear in mind that Allah Hears through " Ears of Allah"

When we say Allah distributes RIZK, gives life or death, we have to bear in mind that it is distributed or given through Ulil Amr as RIZK, HAYAT, Death are all AMR and has to come through Ulil Amr/Wali e Amr - Now who is Ulil Amr/ Wali e Amr ? Who is Allah taking about in Surah Al Qadr when he speaks about Kullay AMR ?

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Allah Wajib ul Wajood says " I create the with my 2 hands" Who is Yad Ullah ?

Allah Says He sees us with his Eyes - WHO is Ain Ullah ?

Who is Lisan Ullah with which Allah Speaks ?

Who is Nafs Ullah ?

Surah Juma says run towards Zikr Ullah - Who is Zikr Ullah ?

Who is Bismillah, the Ba of Bismillah and the dot under the Ba ?

When we say Allah has created with his 2 hands (Khaliq) we have to bear in mind that there is someone who is the MAZHAR of this Sifat KHALIQ and Allah means that it was created through YAD ULLAH.

When we say "Allah Says" e.g. KUN (fa ya Kun) we have to bear in mind that his words would come to us through Lisan Ullah

When we say Allah Hears what we say we have to bear in mind that Allah Hears through " Ears of Allah"

When we say Allah distributes RIZK, gives life or death, we have to bear in mind that it is distributed or given  through Ulil Amr as RIZK, HAYAT, Death are all AMR and has to come through Ulil Amr/Wali e Amr - Now who is Ulil Amr/ Wali e Amr ? Who is Allah taking about in Surah Al Qadr when he speaks about Kullay AMR ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your post.

Because it reveals exactly the depths of ghuloo to which people are falling.

The summary of what you have said is essentially "Ahlul-Bayt are Rabb !"

I mean, what have you left out? To you, Everything is Ahlul-Bayt (as).

Your post is a clearest example of extreme exxageration of a highest level.

WoW - Calling Imams Nafs Ullah -> This is clear Kufr. Takes you out of Islam.

As for saying they are caretakers of all Rizq, Hayat, Death and all Affairs (Amr)...

What can I say? Making them shareek with Allah (swt) at the highest levels.

I can only advise you one thing - Go Read Qur'an !!!

Was-salaam.

ps: Thanks for showing us where exxagerations have been leading people.

Perhaps some truer souls may now see the dangers of existing exxagerations.

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When you tried to negate Nahjul Balagha and Moula Ali's sermon - i knew you were not a shia but your last post you have come out in open and here is absolutely no doubt that you can be anything but a Shia of Ali (as) as there is no shia laymen, Scholar, Mohaddis or anyone else who has refused to accept Imam Ali (as) as Yadullah, Ain Ullah and Lisan Ullah.

You advise me to read Quran - i would say the same to you and point you to the Ayat of Shab-e-Hijrat and see what Allah is saying about Nafs .

I walk out of this discussion with you as have no interest in arguing with non shias.

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(salam)

Isa (as) was wajhallah, so was Dawood (as), so was Sulamain (as), so was Adam (as), they were all aydallah, aynallah, and there is a hadith that shows that is what the believer becomes too with supegotary acts, there were Messengers (as) before Mohammad (pbuh) and there were Imams and awsiya (as) before the 12 from the family of our Prophet (as), ofcourse the status of Mohammad (pbuh) and his family (as) is much higher then all chosen, but never less Mohammad (pbuh) was but a Messenger with Messengers before him, and Ali (as) was but a Wasi and Imam, and there was Wasis and Imams before him

The Prophets (as) act with God's command just as Ahlulbayt (as) did, they had sheefat aswell, yes Ahlulbayt (as) status is really high, but they just servants of God, I suggest you read light within me to find the middle road

Shia books, u totally off the suratal wusta, there are things called expressions and you doing the same thing with Quran as wahabis do :angel:

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I think i have had enough of this pointless discussion which is way out of the topic of the thread. I would have kept quoting Quran and Ahadith if there was some one who was ready to listen - but no

If any one wants to know touheed from Quran and knows Urdu - Please listen to Allamah Hafiz Tasadduq Hussain's Majalis available at www.azadar.com

Masha Allah, Allama has explained all the aspects of touheed very nicely.

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When you tried to negate Nahjul Balagha and Moula Ali's sermon - i knew you were not a shia but your last post you have come out in open and here is absolutely no doubt that you can be anything but a Shia of Ali (as) as there is no shia laymen, Scholar, Mohaddis or anyone else who has refused to accept Imam Ali (as) as Yadullah, Ain Ullah and Lisan Ullah.

You advise me to read Quran - i would say the same to you and point you to the Ayat of Shab-e-Hijrat and see what Allah is saying about Nafs .

I walk out of this discussion with you as have no interest in arguing with non shias.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Salaams.

I'm sorry to say that you are not only a pathetic debater, but a pathetic liar as well.

Did I say anything about Nahjul-Balaghah or Imam Ali's sermons? No ! So you lied !

Did I say anything about Yadullah, Ain Ullah and Lisan Ullah? No ! So you lied !

So now I tell you, besides reading Qur'an, you should also stop lying.

Liars are not from the true Shia of Imam Ali (as).

I would never use these hard words 4 u if you had'nt immensely insulted me, as you did.

Now then, Yadullah, Ain Ullah and Lisan Ullah are only figurative expressions.

By taking them literally, you are following wahhabi way - like tennights said.

And Nafsullah can never even be figurative ! That is clear and open Kufr !

I mean if you say that Imam Ali (as) is the "Self" / "Nafs" of God, that is Kufr !

Major-time Kufr - totally takes you out of Islam (let alone Shia'ism).

I have no more to say,

Was-salaam.

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asalamu alaykum

i have something to say about the original topic ,

perhaps theere is an unauthentic version of ziyarat aushura ? dont u think its possible ? there are soo many different versions , maybe they found out one of them is unauthentic ? Allahu 'Alem

and i dont think its true anyways about hadith al kisa why will they do it after soo long

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Plenty of discussion has already taken place, and I haven't gone through the last few pages.

However, I would be interested to know which of the "ulema" regard Hadith al Kisaa as unauthentic. My knowledge is limited, but as far as I know, all of the ulema regard Hadith al Kisaa IN ITS ENTIRETY as authentic. Never heard it been questioned at all. If you do have any evidence to suggest otherwise, please provide it. (This is to everyone, not anyone in particular).

As for saying they are caretakers of all Rizq, Hayat, Death and all Affairs (Amr)...

Quick point: They are the caretakers of all affairs and such is proven in the Holy Book. (4:59). You can deny the Holy Book, but then you would outside the boundary of Islam...think before you offer your fatwas of Kufr on others...

Edited by Youth Of Ali

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Only today i have found this story over the web, regarding the confusion of hadeeth kisa.

As I understand, Mohammad Mahdi Shahri has banned the publication of hadeeth kisa in all the new copies of mafatih, and perhaps also ordered to rip off the pages from older copies in existance. Mainly because he believes that hadeeth kisa did not existed in the original copy of the book while compiled by abbas qumi. Or even that Shahri also believes that the long version of the hadeeth in the book is not authentic and hence to be removed. Keeping in mind that he does believe in short version being correct.

But, i believe, keeping my above understanding in mind, that Shahri is mistaken. Both of his reasons, i.e. not being included in the original book or that the specific long version was not in the book, both are false. I say this because. i personally have a copy of the mafatih, printed in 1903 AD, which is the very first publication of this book. And also the fact that Shaykh Abbas Qumi died in 1939/40 AD, this first publication was during his lifetime, and that this version has the hadeeth Kisa in it, and not just the short version but the long version.

If anybody thinks that providing the scans of the book here will help, then i can do so. Please do let me know.

And finally, in regards to removing things from mafatih, or adding to it, this is not something new. Because, there are many things which have been removed from it. e.g. my original copy has Ziyarat e Abd Munaaf, Ziyarat e Hazrat Haashim, or Dua Sanam al-Quraish etc. these and many others have been removed from the mafatih, for quite some time now.

And not just the contents, the name of the book is also slightly changed. The original version of 1903 print that i have is called "Meftah al-Janaan" whereas now a days its Mafatih. The difference in-significant as its only the singular (Meftah) and plural (Mafatih) difference.

ba amaan e khoda

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Quick point: They are the caretakers of all affairs and such is proven in the Holy Book. (4:59). You can deny the Holy Book, but then you would outside the boundary of Islam...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(Qur'an 4:59) O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

_____________

Nothing about Ahlul-Bayt (as) being the "caretakers of all affairs".

Cant you come up with a better excuse rather than such absolute mis-match !!!

Its a shame the way people twist ayahs of God to force their eons away meanings!

And I will not be ashamed to clearly state the truth, that:

Believing in Ahlul-Bayt (as) as "caretakers of all affairs" is absolutely MAJOR SHIRK !!!

Was-salaam.

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(Qur'an 4:59) O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

_____________

Nothing about Ahlul-Bayt (as) being the "caretakers of all affairs".

Cant you come up with a better excuse rather than such absolute mis-match !!!

Its a shame the way people twist ayahs of God to force their eons away meanings!

And I will not be ashamed to clearly state the truth, that:

Believing in Ahlul-Bayt (as) as "caretakers of all affairs" is absolutely MAJOR SHIRK !!!

Was-salaam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who are those in authority?

Do you know what Ulil Amr means?

I stand by my point.

-----------------------------------

Still havent answered which ulema if any consider Hadith Kisaa unauthentic.

Edited by Youth Of Ali

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