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The Major Occultation

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brothers and Sisters, I am a religious person, a devout shia, and a follower of the Prophet and his Ahlulbayt. But there is one thing in our-(the shia) beliefs that has always remained a question mark in my mind, and to this day I do not 100% accept it full heartedly.

The Occulations of Imam Mahdi (as) has been something that I just couldn't fully grasp and understand. I mean ok I know of the Minor Occulation, makes sense if the Imam did it so his followers could get used to him not being there, but the Major Occultation, thats another story... I don't understand how a man can disappear for thousands of years. I mean these kinds of miracles are usually reserved for the prophets of God, and technically a prophet is a messenger of God who has had an encounter with the divine; an Imam, however, does not have these encounters!!

So my question is how can this happen, how does it all work, I mean he is only an Imam, not a Prophet, right? So an Imam is a spiritual leader of the Muslim community, not a messenger from God. So how can a Imam disappear, without ever having contact with the divine, and go thousands of years "hidden", and one day will return? It would make a lot more sense if they said the Mahdi was not yet born and will be born in the future when he is needed, but according to our beliefs he was already born and is hidden. I would greatly appreciate replies from anyone who understands about the issue.

(salam)

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The hierarchy of the prophets and Imams is like this :

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

Fatima (pbuh) and Ali (pbuh)

The 11 Imams (pbuh) after Imam Ali .

The Messengers , The prophets ...

The Imams have what is called Wilayat Takweeniyya , that is an authority on every thing in this universe , by the permission of God .

Second ,Wilayat Takwiniyyat isn't only for prophets (pbuh) , but can be for fallibles :

- Al Khidr (as) isn't a prophet , but he is until now alive with Imam Mahdi (pbuh) .

- Asef ben Barkhayya , have bringed Balkis' (as) thrown to prophet Sulayman (pbuh) in less than an eye tickle .

So shia believes that the statue of Ahlulbayt (pbuh) is higher than any other messenger or prophet (pbuh) .

And wilyat takwiniyyat can be for fallibles (as mentioned in the quran) and infallibles (pbuh) .

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Guest ABUALI

(bismillah)

(salam)

A great book which will answer your questions Click Here

We can answer your questions but I believe it is better for you to answer them your self through your researches. Take a look at the book and tell us if you still need any more help :)

Fie Aman Allah......

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Thank you for the replies, AbuAli the site on that book was great, very interesting i still need to do more research, and I thank the other brother for his reply... I would still appreciate what other shiachat members think on the issue, thanks for the help, may God reward you inshallah.

(salam)

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Second ,Wilayat Takwiniyyat isn't only for prophets (pbuh) , but can be for fallibles :

- Al Khidr (as) isn't a prophet , but he is until now alive with Imam Mahdi (pbuh) .

Sorry to bump this up but on what basis did you deduce Al Khizr is not a Prophet?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brothers and Sisters, I am a religious person, a devout shia, and a follower of the Prophet and his Ahlulbayt. But there is one thing in our-(the shia) beliefs that has always remained a question mark in my mind, and to this day I do not 100% accept it full heartedly.

The Occulations of Imam Mahdi (as) has been something that I just couldn't fully grasp and understand. I mean ok I know of the Minor Occulation, makes sense if the Imam did it so his followers could get used to him not being there, but the Major Occultation, thats another story... I don't understand how a man can disappear for thousands of years. I mean these kinds of miracles are usually reserved for the prophets of God, and technically a prophet is a messenger of God who has had an encounter with the divine; an Imam, however, does not have these encounters!!

So my question is how can this happen, how does it all work, I mean he is only an Imam, not a Prophet, right? So an Imam is a spiritual leader of the Muslim community, not a messenger from God. So how can a Imam disappear, without ever having contact with the divine, and go thousands of years "hidden", and one day will return? It would make a lot more sense if they said the Mahdi was not yet born and will be born in the future when he is needed, but according to our beliefs he was already born and is hidden. I would greatly appreciate replies from anyone who understands about the issue.

(salam)

That's the very question i have a tough time dealing with as well.

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One thing to keep in mind is there were in fact hadith mentioning that there was going to be _two_ ghaybas (this is mentioned in al-Kafi which was written prior to the beginning of the major ghayba so one cannot make the objection that this was a notion invented after the fact). One would be short, and one would be long. If the first, which lasted as long as it did was considered "short", imagine how long the second might be...

In regards to the long lives of some of the prophets, remember, this is a grace from Allah that He may bestow on whomever He wills, prophet or otherwise. Extending the life of a man for a hundred, a thousand, even a million years is not beyond what He has the power to do.

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Is Hazrat Fatima (as) greater than Imam Ali (as) ? I don't know, but in her last words to Imam Ali, she addressed him as her husband and lord.

I think he put them on the same level , because the list is going vertically not horizontally.

Btw Hazrat Salman Farsi lived for 300 years. If an ordinary human being can live for that long why cant an Imam live for 3000 years? Its all in the hands of Allah swt

Edited by hassan123

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First of all bro, according to Islam the holy Imams (as) are at a higher level then all the prophets accept Prophet Muhammad (saw) However, when it gets down to it whether they are higher or not thats not the point when Allah (swt) says be..then it is. Who says you have to be a prophet or Imam to live for a thousand years? I mean if Allah (swt) wanted me to live for 200 million years I could..whether i'm an Imam or not. Just because the average person doesn't live that long doesn't mean its illogical. Bro, the first thing to just believing in God is to first realize who Allah really is. Allah is he who has the power to do whatever he so wills. The ALL powerful. The one who brought you into existence. Bro, first understand that concept then think about it. Bro, just understand who Imam Saheb-ul Asr waz Zaman is! If you truly know his importance and the great role he plays and what line he comes from then it is very simple to grasp. He is the Imam of your time. Do you understand the concept of Imamate? do you know the importance of an Imam? The world could not even last one day without an Imam.Just because our Imam is in occultation doesn't mean he is not doing anything for the people. According to our hadiths Allah does not leave the people without a Hujjah. Imam Saheb-ul Asr waz Zaman comes from the most purified line...of alleh muhammad. The 14 maasumeen! Just look at these peoples lives...look at them...and you will see that no wonder Allah has kept such a man alive for soo long.

Brother, are you aware that according to the Quran (29:14), Prophet Noah (as) was a prophet for 950 years? His age should have been even more than that because we should add his age before prophethood to the above number. I mean bro,do you agree that Prophet Isa (as) is still alive? He is, in fact about, 1995 years old by now. Of course, he is not living on the earth rather in the heavens and according to the muslims belief, he will come back to the earth, and will pray behind Imam al-Mahdi (as). Even the sunnis agree on that. Do you agree that Hazrat Khidr (as) is still alive? the Quran mentions the story of his meeting with Prophet Mosa (as). He existed before the time of the Prophet Moses (as) and hazrat -Khidr (as) is now more than 3000 years old! He lives right here on the earth, but we can not recognize him just like the case of Imam al-Mahdi (ajf).

Bro, the 12th Imam comes from the direct line of the 11th Imam, Imam Hassan Al Askari... in order for him to be his son..he must be born at around the same time he was alive. You should look up the history of how he became an Imam. but now your probally wondering why he didn't appear then and why is it that Allah has still kept him alive till now...well the appearance of Imam al-Mahdi solely depends on the decision of Allah. All knows best when the time to bring the Imam at of occultation and has his reasons for keeping in it for so long. Plus, Imam al-Mahdi (as) will come as soon as people become ready for him. People throughout the history were NEVER ready.they killed prophets, and Imams one after the other. However Allah continued to send prophets till He finally sent Prophet Muhammad who brought the last message at the time when the evolution of the mind of human beings reached its maturity and so Allah provided them with the most complete and final religion. After that there was no need to send a new message and so He sent Imams who preserved and explained the message during the time of tribulation for people. They also did that, and we are proud that we have had Imams like Imam jafar as-Sadiq (as) who explained all aspects of Jurisprudence and ect... He had a golden opportunity of teaching during the clashes between the umayad and the abbasids. During that short period when the tyrants of both sides were busy with each other the Imam was teaching jurisprudence and theology in classes with as much as 5000 students. Now the time is for action. But unfortunately the majority of people were/are reluctant to follow the right path and instead, they opposed and killed the Imams of ahlulbayt and treated them in the same way that their ancestors treated the prophets. So as you can see the people were obviously never ready...just look at history..this is the final and complete Imam...thus Allah is waiting for the best time to bring our Imam for All of humanity...I mean his zahoor is waiting on his supporters...and still throughout history thre were no true supporters...his soldiers will be among those whom are even higher then the people of karbala who stood by Imam hussain (as)...i mean when he comes it was just be one tribe against him...it will be the whole entire world..therefore, he will need his shia besides him...Imam Mahdi (ajf) will come when he his 313 top soliders become available. Imam Mahdi can not govern the world with no helper. In fact none of our other 11 Imams had such number of high rank followers. Let me give you two examples: Before his demise Prophet Muhammad instructed Imam Ali (as) that if the number of his followers loyal to him (after the demise of the Prophet) exceeds 40 men he should use force to restore his right and take the power, otherwise he should keep silent since the only remaining pious people would be killed without being able to help Islam. Unfortunately the number of people who remained loyal to Imam Ali (as) did not reach to this amount at that moment. Another example I read was...

Sahl Ibn al-Hasan al-Khurasani who was one of the followers of Ahlul- Bayt in Khurasan came to Medina to meet Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (as). Sahl al-Khurasani said: "O son of the Messenger of Allah! You are of the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt. What prevents you from getting your right (i.e., the rule) while you find more than one hundred thousand Shi'a who are ready to fight for you?" The Imam (as) asked him to sit down, and then ordered to turn on the oven that was in the house. After the oven became very hot and turned red, the Imam (as) said: "O Khurasani step into the oven and sit in it." The Khurasani said: "My master, O son of the Messenger of Allah! Do not punish me by fire and make it easy for me." At this time, Harun al- Makki (ra) entered the room, and after the greetings exchanged, the Imam (as) told him to put down his shoes and to sit down inside the oven. He did so and the Imam (as) started talking to Sahl about Khurasan as if nothing has happened. After some time, the Imam (as) said: "O Khurasani stand up and look inside the oven." Sahl looked into the oven and saw Harun sitting cross-legged inside the fire. Then Imam al-Sadiq (as) asked Harun to come out of oven and he came out healthy with no burn or injury. At this time, the Imam (as) asked Sahl: "How many individuals do you know in Khurasan like this man?" Sahl replied: "By Allah, not even one." The Imam (as) confirmed his saying and said, "We do not rise at this time when we do not even have five helpers (like him). We know better about the proper time." (al- Bihar, v47, p123, Hadith #172; also in Manaqib by Ibn Shahr Ashub)

Our hadiths state hat Imam Mahdi (ajf) needs 313 followers which are not only sincere and faithful but also possess supreme knowledge and wisdom. Imam Mahdi should also have another 40,000 faithful followers who will fill the secondary positions. These people will not just fall outta the sky my friend..its counting on us...

the birth of the Imam (ajf) was kept in secrecy that even the followers of Imam hassan al-Askari (as) did not know of the time of the birth of imam Mahdi (ajf). Only very few close followers were notified. The obvious reason was that the birth of Imam Mahdi (ajf) made a direct threat to the continuance of the corrupt government to rule. This situation is best understood when we look back to the first few years of Islam when the Prophet preached the religion in secrecy among a few loyal followers. The Prophet (saw) feared for the lives of these believers and as such he forbade them from revealing any information.. that might jeopardize the entire mission. bro I could go on forever with this topic. I hope i cleared some things up for you...May Allah (swt) shower his light and mercy upon you :)

Edited by ya imam zaman

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Salaam,

The World Federation website usually sends out an e-mail every week, with a 'Thought of the Week' section. The following piece was this weeks - I thought it was relevant to this thread.

Food for thought:

Our Imam (AF) is in occultation. This is usually perceived as strange. However if we look at history we find that communities near the end of the legacy of Prophets (S) had to wait for their promised messengers. For example, people had to wait for the event of the Messiah (Jesus (S)) to be born and many lost faith when Lady Mary was born when they thought it should have been the Messiah. After that the faithful had to wait many years before the event of the Prophet of Islam (SAW).

So which is stranger? A Prophet born without a father then subsequently raised to heaven and still alive (verified in the Quran) or a person having a longer life in hiding?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brothers and Sisters, I am a religious person, a devout shia, and a follower of the Prophet and his Ahlulbayt. But there is one thing in our-(the shia) beliefs that has always remained a question mark in my mind, and to this day I do not 100% accept it full heartedly.

The Occulations of Imam Mahdi (as) has been something that I just couldn't fully grasp and understand. I mean ok I know of the Minor Occulation, makes sense if the Imam did it so his followers could get used to him not being there, but the Major Occultation, thats another story... I don't understand how a man can disappear for thousands of years. I mean these kinds of miracles are usually reserved for the prophets of God, and technically a prophet is a messenger of God who has had an encounter with the divine; an Imam, however, does not have these encounters!!

So my question is how can this happen, how does it all work, I mean he is only an Imam, not a Prophet, right? So an Imam is a spiritual leader of the Muslim community, not a messenger from God. So how can a Imam disappear, without ever having contact with the divine, and go thousands of years "hidden", and one day will return? It would make a lot more sense if they said the Mahdi was not yet born and will be born in the future when he is needed, but according to our beliefs he was already born and is hidden. I would greatly appreciate replies from anyone who understands about the issue.

(salam)

Salam,

Imam Mahdi (as) is not a Prophet, means he will not receiving new shariah/book. His job is to continue what the Prophet has initiated until Islam is established in total on the earth. So the communication between him and Allah swt still continue. Imam will get divine instructions / planning (for example in the night of Qadr).

Hidden means physically, the physical eyes can't see him. Is Imam Mahdi is detached from the ummah? the answer is no. He is with all of us, spiritually. How is the spiritual world, is not the scope of this discussion.

Major Occultation also means we have the opportunity to have access to Imam Mahdi(as), through sincere heart (easy to say, but not easy to do). OUr heart has to be very pure. It is possible. Some poeple dream to be at the presence of Imam Mahdi (as).

One of the importance factor for Imam (as) to come back, he should be able to communicate with the entire world by physical and spiritual ways. He will not appear if there is no way for him to communicate with the ummah. With the advent of the technology and communication, there is already a possibility for a person to communicate to everybody on the earth. Surely, the appearance of Mahdi (as), insyaAllah near.

Can you imagine, Imam (as) is talking to entire world using the World Wide Web....we see him talking live via internet.

Wallahualam

Layman

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Salaam,

To provide a Quranic perspective, please look at the story of Prophet Sulayman (as).

027.036

YUSUFALI: Now when (the embassy) came to Solomon, he said: "Will ye give me abundance in wealth? But that which Allah has given me is better than that which He has given you! Nay it is ye who rejoice in your gift!

027.037

YUSUFALI: "Go back to them, and be sure we shall come to them with such hosts as they will never be able to meet: We shall expel them from there in disgrace, and they will feel humbled (indeed)."

027.038

YUSUFALI: He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

027.039

YUSUFALI: Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

027.040

YUSUFALI: Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !"

From this we see, that a companion of Prophet Sulayman (a normal human being - who was not even a Prophet), whom we know to be named Asif bin Barkiya - had the ability to transport the throne of the Queen of Sheba - 1000 miles (Yemen to Palestine) in the blink of an eye then we can make some interesting conclusions.

Prophet Sulayman was a great Prophet, and his companions had great knowledge and obvious power. However, Prophet Muhammad was an even greater Prophet, and his successors were even greater than the companions of Prophet Sulayman. If a simple student of Prophet Sulayman had this kind of power, then it is very easy to understand that the Imams - who received superior knowledge directly from Prophet Muhammad, were even more knowledgeable and thus had more power and can thusly do many things we cannot even understand.

-

rahat

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The Mahdi has already come and gone. :)

Sayyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi was the Bab who was the forerunner for the One who shall be made Manifest - Bahaullah.

I urge you to read the following website and be guided to the Truth.

Please refer to Bahai for further information.

There have been many misconceptions about the Bahai Faith, however we have begun a new Prophetic Cycle and Bahaullah's Revelation is the one relevant for this day. No need to wait any longer......

Please refer to the above website. Its all i ask. You will see the Manifestation of God :)

Your friend,

B

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The Mahdi has already come and gone. :)

Sayyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi was the Bab who was the forerunner for the One who shall be made Manifest - Bahaullah.

I urge you to read the following website and be guided to the Truth.

Please refer to Bahai for further information.

There have been many misconceptions about the Bahai Faith, however we have begun a new Prophetic Cycle and Bahaullah's Revelation is the one relevant for this day. No need to wait any longer......

Please refer to the above website. Its all i ask. You will see the Manifestation of God :)

Your friend,

B

I suggest you refer to this website.

http://www.bahaiawareness.com/

Thank you. :)

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That website contains false information. I only ask you to check further.

Isnt it a requirement in Islam to investigate the Truth? Didnt the Prophet Muhammad inform you to search for the Truth if future Prophets make a claim?

Investigating will do you no harm.

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That website contains false information. I only ask you to check further.

What is "false"? Quote it with PROOF.

Isnt it a requirement in Islam to investigate the Truth? Didnt the Prophet Muhammad inform you to search for the Truth if future Prophets make a claim?

No. The Quran itself states the opposite.

(bismillah)

ãøóÇ ßóÇäó ãõÍóãøóÏñ ÃóÈóÇ ÃóÍóÏò ãøöä ÑøöÌóÇáößõãú æóáóßöä ÑøóÓõæáó Çááøóåö æóÎóÇÊóãó ÇáäøóÈöíøöíäó æóßóÇäó Çááøóåõ Èößõáøö ÔóíúÁò ÚóáöíãðÇ

[Pickthal 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Investigating will do you no harm.

I agree. Please go through that website.

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[Pickthal 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Glad you bring up this point.

Bahaullah is a Manifestation of God. The Prophet Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers, not the seal of the Manifestation.

Verse 44 of that Sura indicates that we will be seeing the Manifestation of God:

"Their greeting on the day when they shall meet Him shall be "Peace!" And He hath got ready for them a noble recompense."

We obviously cannot see God therefore this can only mean that we will be meeting the Manifestation of God. As verse 6:103 - Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware.

If we cant see God, who will we be meeting on the Day?

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[Pickthal 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Glad you bring up this point.

Bahaullah is a Manifestation of God. The Prophet Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers, not the seal of the Manifestation.

Verse 44 of that Sura indicates that we will be seeing the Manifestation of God:

"Their greeting on the day when they shall meet Him shall be "Peace!" And He hath got ready for them a noble recompense."

We obviously cannot see God therefore this can only mean that we will be meeting the Manifestation of God. As verse 6:103 - Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware.

If we cant see God, who will we be meeting on the Day?

Before we proceed, I want you to clarify. Is Bahaullah a "Prophet" or is he a "Manifestation of God"?

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[Pickthal 33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Glad you bring up this point.

Bahaullah is a Manifestation of God. The Prophet Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers, not the seal of the Manifestation.

Verse 44 of that Sura indicates that we will be seeing the Manifestation of God:

"Their greeting on the day when they shall meet Him shall be "Peace!" And He hath got ready for them a noble recompense."

We obviously cannot see God therefore this can only mean that we will be meeting the Manifestation of God. As verse 6:103 - Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware.

If we cant see God, who will we be meeting on the Day?

Dear Mr. Bahai:

You make it sound so simple! Thankfully our Quran is a lot more deeper than just referring to Mr. Pickthall's translation to comprehend the entire meaning of any verse. I can bet that forget about reading the Quran in Arabic, you do not even know the number of alphabets in Arabic. yet you make such a lofty conclusion and post it as if it were a foregone conclusion.

The Bahais have a long history of misinterpreting verses - based on their translation alone. You can visit my web site www.bahaiawareness.com to know more about this. Inshallah, I will post a reply to this verse as well.

In any case, my objective right now is not to reply to this verse.

You made a very strong statement -

Firstly, that the Mahdi of Islam has come and gone and that is the Bab. Could you provide even one single proof for that?

Secondly, you said that Mohammed is a Manifestation from God. Please bring only one tradition from The prophet wherein he indicated this for his followers. Just one tradition.

You also made a statement that bahaiawareness is full of lies. I am not surprised at this given that you are a Bahai. Only time will tell who lied and who spoke the truth.

Regards,

Imran Shaykh

www.bahaiawareness.com

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Whizbee, looks like Mr. I_Bahai is confused. Because he stated this at first: Didnt the Prophet Muhammad inform you to search for the Truth if future Prophets make a claim?

And then he is saying "manifestation of God"!

Edited by SpIzo

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Whizbee, looks like Mr. I_Bahai is confused. Because he stated this at first: Didnt the Prophet Muhammad inform you to search for the Truth if future Prophets make a claim?

And then he is saying "manifestation of God"!

It's not I_Bahai's fault. It was Bahaullah himself who was confused. He couldn't decide whether he was a "Prophet" or the "Manifestation of God" or "God himself".

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Ok first of all, I dont agree with something.. I dont like this saying that ahlulbayt are "better" than all other prophets, lets NOT use this kind of language ok. Let's leave their positions up to God! As for Imam Mahdi, all I want is ONE authentic saying/hadith from the prophet (pbuh) from both shia and sunni sources when he claims SPECIFICALLY that the 12th Imam will disappear for thousands of years and return one day!!! I know about the hadith which the Prophet says there will be 12 "caliphs" to rule after him, but nowhere does he say the 12th shall live for thousands of years.

YES I DO BELIEVE that Prophet Noah lived for hundreds of years, why? Because the Quran CLEARLY says so. And hadiths back it. I dont see anywhere proof of the Mahdi's long life!

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It's not I_Bahai's fault. It was Bahaullah himself who was confused. He couldn't decide whether he was a "Prophet" or the "Manifestation of God" or "God himself".

Bahaullah wasn't confused. He [la] perfectly knew the game he was playing. :squeez:

Ok first of all, I dont agree with something.. I dont like this saying that ahlulbayt are "better" than all other prophets, lets NOT use this kind of language ok. Let's leave their positions up to God! As for Imam Mahdi, all I want is ONE authentic saying/hadith from the prophet (pbuh) from both shia and sunni sources when he claims SPECIFICALLY that the 12th Imam will disappear for thousands of years and return one day!!! I know about the hadith which the Prophet says there will be 12 "caliphs" to rule after him, but nowhere does he say the 12th shall live for thousands of years.

YES I DO BELIEVE that Prophet Noah lived for hundreds of years, why? Because the Quran CLEARLY says so. And hadiths back it. I dont see anywhere proof of the Mahdi's long life!

Well, I would like to say that whether you want to believe the AhlulBayt [as] are better than Prophets or not, that's upon you. You cannot force us to say what you want.

You are sounding very different from when you started this thread. Anyway, there are plenty of ahadith [at least in Shi'a sources] about the longevity of Imam Mahdi [atf] and his long life has been compared to Prophet Nuh [as]'s life.

Imam Hasan `Askari related:

"After me my son is the Qa'im. He is the one in whom two characteristics of the ancient prophets, namely, long life and occultation, will be realized. His occultation will be so much prolonged that the hearts of the people will become hard and dark [with doubt]. Only those who receive God's special favor and whose hearts are made unwavering and who are confirmed by the holy spirit will remain faithful to him."

Shi'a reference:

-Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 224. Additionally, there are some 46 other traditions in this section on the same theme.

Holy Prophet said:

"Allah will bring out from concealment Mahdi from my Family and Progeny before the Day of Judgement, even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and eradicate tyranny and opression."

Sunni reference:

-Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

-A close version has also been narrated in Sunan Abu Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4270 narrated from Ali Ibn Abi Talib .

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Ok first of all, I dont agree with something.. I dont like this saying that ahlulbayt are "better" than all other prophets, lets NOT use this kind of language ok. Let's leave their positions up to God! As for Imam Mahdi, all I want is ONE authentic saying/hadith from the prophet (pbuh) from both shia and sunni sources when he claims SPECIFICALLY that the 12th Imam will disappear for thousands of years and return one day!!! I know about the hadith which the Prophet says there will be 12 "caliphs" to rule after him, but nowhere does he say the 12th shall live for thousands of years.

YES I DO BELIEVE that Prophet Noah lived for hundreds of years, why? Because the Quran CLEARLY says so. And hadiths back it. I dont see anywhere proof of the Mahdi's long life!

Some of the historians who have reported traditions about the long life of the Mahdi are given below:

1. Muntakhabul Asar, chapter 30, part 20, page 276

2. Kashful Mohajjah, part 79

3. Tazkeratul Khawas by Sibt Ibne Jawzi, page 377

4. Al Bayan Fee Akhbaare' Sahebaz Zaman, chapter 25

5. Al Mo'amaroon (entire book is on this topic)

6. Tafseerul Jawaher, volume 17, page 224

7. Izharul Haqq, volume 2, page 124

8. Mahdi Mau'ood Ala Rawani, page 585

9. Al Imam Al Mahdi Menal Mahde Ilaz Zohoor, page 353

10. Tarikhe Mo'rajuz Zahab by Masoodi, volume 1, 2

11. Isbatul Wasiyyah by Masoodi

12. Daad Gustare' Jahan, page 302

13. Kamaluddin, volume 2, chapter 52, page 549

14. Chehrae' Darakshane' Imame' Zaman (as), page 268

15. Ghabate' Tusi, page 81

16. Yaumul Khalaas, page 164

17. Kashful Ghummah, volume 3, page 333

18. Beharul Anwar, volume 51, page 263

A tradition from Imam Sadiq (as) informs us that Hazrat Nuh (as) was granted a long life so that it would serve as a proof for the long life of the Mahdi. Secondly, the long life of Hazrat Nuh (as) establishes that if Allah wishes, he can AND he has given life (more than the current age of Hazrat Mahdi (as)) to another person. In addition, the life of Hazrat Adam (as) was 930 years; the age of hazrat Shees (as) was 900 years. Hazrat Nuh (as) is one example amongst many.

More proofs can be provided if required.

Regards,

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You are sounding very different from when you started this thread. Anyway, there are plenty of ahadith [at least in Shi'a sources] about the longevity of Imam Mahdi [atf] and his long life has been compared to Prophet Nuh [as]'s life.

Holy Prophet said:

"Allah will bring out from concealment Mahdi from my Family and Progeny before the Day of Judgement, even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and eradicate tyranny and opression."

Sunni reference:

-Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

-A close version has also been narrated in Sunan Abu Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4270 narrated from Ali Ibn Abi Talib .

I am sounding very different from when i started this thread because I have yet to see clear proof of this event. The sunni reference you refered to doesnt prove anything. The sunnis believe that the Mahdi will come, but he will be BORN, and yes from the Prophets bloodline, that makes sense ok.. and that explains that hadith. The shia source you gave was not what I was looking for... (thanks for sharing it though).

I repeat, I want a clear source from the Prophet himself that proves the Mahdi's long life. If It's such a big deal in our faith, and yet I hardly find any mention of it from the prophet. I would think something like that would be highly recorded!! My belief in this occulation is slipping i'm afraid.

Edited by ShIaLeB

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I repeat, I want a clear source from the Prophet himself that proves the Mahdi's long life. If It's such a big deal in our faith, and yet I hardly find any mention of it from the prophet. I would think something like that would be highly recorded!! My belief in this occulation is slipping i'm afraid.

Brother, if you are so very casually dismissing ahadith by the Holy Imams (as), then it's not just your belief in occultation that is slipping.

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Whizbee, looks like Mr. I_Bahai is confused. Because he stated this at first: Didnt the Prophet Muhammad inform you to search for the Truth if future Prophets make a claim?

Why would Muhammad tell you to investigate the claims of future Prophets if it was sealed? There would be no point.

Bahaullah is known as a Prophet, Messenger and also a Manifestation of God. God sealed the prophethood of the Adamic cycle. This is why Muhammad asked you to investigate future prophets claims.

Begin by recognising that it is mentioned in the Quran of a future manifestation. As previously shown. the clear indication is the verse - 33:44.

B

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Why would Muhammad tell you to investigate the claims of future Prophets if it was sealed? There would be no point.

1) I gave you an ayah from the Quran. Prophethood has indeed being sealed with the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

2) Where has the Holy Prophet (pbuh) asked us to “to investigate the claims of future Prophets”? Please bring forth proof.

Bahaullah is known as a Prophet, Messenger and also a Manifestation of God.

As the brother has already pointed out, can you provide a SINGLE tradition/ayah, which states that the Prophets are “manifestations of God”?

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I am sounding very different from when i started this thread because I have yet to see clear proof of this event. The sunni reference you refered to doesnt prove anything. The sunnis believe that the Mahdi will come, but he will be BORN, and yes from the Prophets bloodline, that makes sense ok.. and that explains that hadith. The shia source you gave was not what I was looking for... (thanks for sharing it though).

I repeat, I want a clear source from the Prophet himself that proves the Mahdi's long life. If It's such a big deal in our faith, and yet I hardly find any mention of it from the prophet. I would think something like that would be highly recorded!! My belief in this occulation is slipping i'm afraid.

Just because you did not find anything regarding it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Since you asked for only ONE tradition ONLY from the Prophet as the sayings of the Aimmah [as] have no value for you (even though there is a tradition that whatever the Imams [as] narrate is from the Messenger of Allah and the Messenger of Allah from Jibra`il [as] and Jibra`il [as] from Allah [swt]), I'll post only one:

Abdullah Ibn Abbas cites on the authority of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.) who said, “Surely, Allah, Blessed and High be He, glanced at the earth, chose me from it and appointed me as a Prophet. Then He glanced for the second time, selected Ali (a.s.) and made him an Imam. Thereafter, He ordered me that I take Ali (a.s.) as a brother, friend, successor, caliph and vizier. So, Ali (a.s.) is from me and I am from Ali (a.s.). He is the husband of my daughter and the father of my two grandsons, Hasan (a.s.) and Husain (a.s.). Know that surely Allah, Blessed and High be He, has appointed me and them as proofs upon His servants. From the offspring of Husain (a.s.), He has designated Imams who will stand by my affair and will protect my will. The ninth of them will be the Qaem (a.s.) of my Ahle Bait (a.s.). He will be the Mahdi (a.t.f.s.) of this nation and the most similar to me in traits, words and deeds. He will appear after a prolonged occultation and a deviating confusion. After that, he will announce the command of Allah and manifest the religion of Allah, Mighty and Majestic be He. The assistance of Allah and His angels will help him. He will fill the earth with justice and equity as it would be replete with injustice and tyranny.

-Kamaal al-Deen, vol. 1, pg. 257, Chap. 24, Tr. No. 2

-Kefaayah al-Asar, pg. 110, Chap. 10, Tr. No. 1

-Irshaad al-Quloob, vol. 2, pg. 272

-Behaar al-Anwaar, vol. 36, pg. 282, Chap. 41, Tr. No. 105

-Al-Insaaf, pg. 155, Tr. No. 155

-Munaar al-Huda, pg. 368.

Taken from Muntakhab al-Athar by Ayatullah Lutfullah Saafi Gulpaygani.

Just for your sake, I'll post these books too. Go through it, if you feel like:

Al-Imam al-Mahdi, The Just Leader of Humanity

The Last Luminary

INQUIRY ABOUT AL-MAHDI

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