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ShIaLeB

The Major Occultation

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After the period of minor occultation, Imamites were under attack from Ismailittes, brother of Imam al-Askari(a), Zaydis and sunnis regarding the doctrine of 'Ghaybah'. In that period many hadith were fabricated to prove the ghaybah of Imam Mahdi (a). I think, the following passage by Ibn Babuyah is the best proof of the ghaybah of Imam Mahdi(a). He says :

twelveth.jpg

(salam)

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My belief in this occulation is slipping i'm afraid.

Bro, I would also like to add [don't know what happened when I was posting my reply :wacko:], that these doubts which you're experiencing, is a test for you in this period of occultation. It is a test to filter the true Shi'as from the hypocrites or those who are weak in faith. According to traditions, the Shi'as will be filtered again and again till a time comes when only a handful are left. These doubts [which are usually Shaytan's whisperings] will either make or break you [from the aspect of the here-after]. You have to be firm in your belief in occultation. Questions should be asked but to increase your certainty and faith; not to find faults and diminsh your faith.

Some of the dua'as recommended to be recited during the time of occultation:

http://duas.org/imamezaman/ghareek.htm

http://duas.org/marefat.htm

Edited by SpIzo

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Why would Muhammad tell you to investigate the claims of future Prophets if it was sealed? There would be no point.

Bahaullah is known as a Prophet, Messenger and also a Manifestation of God. God sealed the prophethood of the Adamic cycle. This is why Muhammad asked you to investigate future prophets claims.

Begin by recognising that it is mentioned in the Quran of a future manifestation. As previously shown. the clear indication is the verse - 33:44.

B

33:44 has no indication of any future prophet - as I had mentioned earlier, the Quran is a lot more deeper than just basing an entire concept on an ordinary translation. Pick up an Arabic lexicon and you will realise the depth of Arabic as a language. There is not even a hint of any future Manifestation. Forget about the hint - even the concept of manifestation does not exist in Islam.

Prophet Mohammed tell us about future prophets - those who would make fraudulent claims. Can you tell us any one place where the word Adamic cycle exists from any - from any prophet?

Bahaullah brings a new concept - makes his own claim and expects people to follow. You must be deluded.

Regards,

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Further proof from the Quran:

O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. 7:35

Why is God in the Quran stating that more messengers will come amongst us if the Prophet Muhammad was the last?

33:44 has no indication of any future prophet - as I had mentioned earlier, the Quran is a lot more deeper than just basing an entire concept on an ordinary translation. Pick up an Arabic lexicon and you will realise the depth of Arabic as a language. There is not even a hint of any future Manifestation. Forget about the hint - even the concept of manifestation does not exist in Islam.

Well if its not meant to be translated as meeting God, whats the correct translation? Is it still not implying we will be meeting God, even though we are unable to see God?

B

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Further proof from the Quran:

O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. 7:35

Why is God in the Quran stating that more messengers will come amongst us if the Prophet Muhammad was the last?

Come up with something original, please.

http://www.bahaiawareness.com/verses3.html

Well if its not meant to be translated as meeting God, whats the correct translation? Is it still not implying we will be meeting God, even though we are unable to see God?

I don't see what you are trying to prove here. Does seeing equate meeting? How did you reach this conclusion? Care to share?

And you ignored my previous post. Where is your proof that Prophets are manifestations of God?

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(salam)

Shialeb, your a questioning and your doubt is because you wish to see the truth rather then just hear it and believe like cults believe in whatever they are told. This is good, Ibrahim (as) believed Allah (swt) would raise the dead but wanted to see with his heart the reality what he was told. You are longing for itminan (which is not due to lack of faith but longing for it's perfection). You need to read irfan books for starters and you need to understand the shariah in a greater sense and the purpose of the Quran and Mohammad's (pbuh) message in it's totality. This is a start point, seek Allah (swt) guidance till you see it. Don't ever be sastified until you see the truth, see everything. Otherwirse even knowing is not good enough and no logical reason will give you tranquility. You need to see the truth with ainal yaqeen, the Quran is there to help you, salat is to help you, hajj is to help you, ramadan is to help you, may Allah (swt) give you tawfeeq.

And I disagree with imranshaykh saying the concept of manifestation is not their in Islam, in ziyaratal jamia al-kabeer, it states the Ahlulbayt (as) are God's "baha" (ie. baha'Allah), also in du'a arafa in Saheefa, the Imam of time is said to be "baha al-alimeen". This is not re-incarnation, but the light of God in a measurement, the beautiful names of God, the oneness of God, all radiates from the Imam (as) to the hearts of believers. Call it ghulu, call it shirk, call it what you want, this is the truth.

I_Bahai, read the Quran and you will see it says about yamal qayama. Ibraheem (as) asks for Allah (swt) to forgive his sins on that day. Quran says people knowing the truth then won't save them. It says they wish to go back and follow messengers on that day. The interpetation of the bab and bahallah of yamal qayama can hold water for some verses, but in light of countless others, the interpetation is refuted.

Also, bahallah quoted du'a nudba in one of his works and was using phrases from it as proofs, (i think it's in kitabal itqan (not sure, can't remember was a while back since I read the bahai books), and in du'a nubda - Imam Mahdi (as) is said to be alive and also the hadith "You are to me as Harun is to Musa except their is no Prophet after me" is in there. Bahallah was using this du'a as proof - ofcourse -anyone who read the du'a knows it refutes him, just like anyone well-versed in quran knows the bab interpetation of yamal qayma is refuted by Quran itself.

Also, the bab before wrote a book about the signifiance of the scent of Yusuf (as) and his shirt with wiliyah and said in there no Prophet will come, no Messenger will come, no Imam after Imam Mahdi (as) will come. Imam Mahdi (as) is the last of the ones chosen with such wiliyah. The bab himself said this. People were amazed by his works (and they are not that amazing for people well-versed in irfan, just that these things are not talked to general people more less and general people were very impressed by his books he wrote) and said he was the Mahdi or the door to Mahdi, and he came out and denied it. Even wrote in a book saying he is not. And then, ofcourse, later he claimed thee things he was against and even more.

Althought it was sppose tobe hundreds of years later the next manifestation would come (according to "al-bayan") it was misinterpeted by Bahaallah and thus a split occured when Baahalllah claimed he was the next manifestation.

For some reason Russia supported bahais extremely and today bahais side with Zionist - and you are political enemies of Islam, especially in Iran. I am only enemies to you guys as long as you guys are working against us. I believe your beliefs are not bad (wish you would read the Quran and realize what yamal qayama really is. Yes yamal qayama reality, the light, it's all linked to the Mohammadiya (pbuh) light being manifested to all, but it's also yamal hisaab, and it's also the day when everyone wishes they been believers (which they don't now, nor did they when bahallah came), it's the day when everyone regrets their evil (which people don;t know and didn't during bahallah time), so read what the quran says, and since you believe in the quran, then you will know the truth.

Also, Bahallah didn't interpet "seal of Prophets" like you said, he said it is refering to the fact all Prophets (as) are the begining of perfect man and the end of perfect man, and Mohammad (pbuh) has the the end postion of all Prophets (as) (some thing on this line). If you really believe in bahallah, atleast show what he says about verses and don't bring your interpetation when he says otherwise. He didn't say it was teh end of this and that cycle which his followers do say, it seems your to ashamed to bring his arguments.

ws

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Just because you did not find anything regarding it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Since you asked for only ONE tradition ONLY from the Prophet as the sayings of the Aimmah [as] have no value for you (even though there is a tradition that whatever the Imams [as] narrate is from the Messenger of Allah and the Messenger of Allah from Jibra`il [as] and Jibra`il [as] from Allah [swt]), I'll post only one:

Abdullah Ibn Abbas cites on the authority of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.) who said, “Surely, Allah, Blessed and High be He, glanced at the earth, chose me from it and appointed me as a Prophet. Then He glanced for the second time, selected Ali (a.s.) and made him an Imam. Thereafter, He ordered me that I take Ali (a.s.) as a brother, friend, successor, caliph and vizier. So, Ali (a.s.) is from me and I am from Ali (a.s.). He is the husband of my daughter and the father of my two grandsons, Hasan (a.s.) and Husain (a.s.). Know that surely Allah, Blessed and High be He, has appointed me and them as proofs upon His servants. From the offspring of Husain (a.s.), He has designated Imams who will stand by my affair and will protect my will. The ninth of them will be the Qaem (a.s.) of my Ahle Bait (a.s.). He will be the Mahdi (a.t.f.s.) of this nation and the most similar to me in traits, words and deeds. He will appear after a prolonged occultation and a deviating confusion. After that, he will announce the command of Allah and manifest the religion of Allah, Mighty and Majestic be He. The assistance of Allah and His angels will help him. He will fill the earth with justice and equity as it would be replete with injustice and tyranny.

-Kamaal al-Deen, vol. 1, pg. 257, Chap. 24, Tr. No. 2

-Kefaayah al-Asar, pg. 110, Chap. 10, Tr. No. 1

-Irshaad al-Quloob, vol. 2, pg. 272

-Behaar al-Anwaar, vol. 36, pg. 282, Chap. 41, Tr. No. 105

-Al-Insaaf, pg. 155, Tr. No. 155

-Munaar al-Huda, pg. 368.

Taken from Muntakhab al-Athar by Ayatullah Lutfullah Saafi Gulpaygani.

Just for your sake, I'll post these books too. Go through it, if you feel like:

Al-Imam al-Mahdi, The Just Leader of Humanity

The Last Luminary

INQUIRY ABOUT AL-MAHDI

You are putting words in my mouth! I NEVER said the Imam's sayings have no value, I said I want proof from THE PROPHET HIMSELF. And YES, a saying from the Prophet is worth more than any Imam's sayings, with all respect to them. I dont see why this is such a disturbing thing for you and people like you, who I feel just want people to accept YOUR interpretations of things without question. I believe in the ahlulbayt as the rightful successors of the prophet....

Anyway thank you for the hadith, very interesting... Those books you listed under the hadith which you claim have this saying from the Prophet, are any of them sunni books? And once again I find it odd that such an important event as the occulation of A MESSIAH to the world would be recorded ONLY ONCE by the Prophet?! I need more hadiths if anyone has them.

(salam)

Shialeb, your a questioning and your doubt is because you wish to see the truth rather then just hear it and believe like cults believe in whatever they are told. This is good.

EXACTLY... thank you.

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^ Take the brother's advice. Reject ahadith, search for proof in the Quran and if you don't find it there, refer to Sufi saints. And you shall see the truth.

I Bahai- My question stands. Bring proof that Prophets were "manifestations of God".

Edited by Whizbee

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You are putting words in my mouth! I NEVER said the Imam's sayings have no value, I said I want proof from THE PROPHET HIMSELF. And YES, a saying from the Prophet is worth more than any Imam's sayings, with all respect to them. I dont see why this is such a disturbing thing for you and people like you, who I feel just want people to accept YOUR interpretations of things without question. I believe in the ahlulbayt as the rightful successors of the prophet....

Anyway thank you for the hadith, very interesting... Those books you listed under the hadith which you claim have this saying from the Prophet, are any of them sunni books? And once again I find it odd that such an important event as the occulation of A MESSIAH to the world would be recorded ONLY ONCE by the Prophet?! I need more hadiths if anyone has them.

EXACTLY... thank you.

Dear ShIaLeB:

I sent you a list of books (most of which are Sunni books. Did you get a change to go through them. The books have the page numbers, volume number et all. They would go a long way in putting your doubts to rest and also fulfilling the requirement of getting traditions from Sunni books for the Mahdi.

Secondly, for us, whether the tradition is from Ahlul Bayt (as) or the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is the same as the Ahlul Bayt said only what was came down to them from the Prophet who of course received his knowledge from Allah directly.

Thirdly, even if the Prophet (pbuh) said something once, it carries the same importance - it is a tradition from the Prophet (pbuh). Period. It demands the same obedience as something he may have repeated multiple times. Also, the Ahlul Bayt (as) were the interpretors for the words of Allah and the Prophet - their traditions clarify what the prophet said and more importantly, they do not contradict the words of the Prophet.

Lastly, there is no tradition which indicates the period of occultation in terms of its length - it is just noted that occultation will be a long one and one in which Shiahs will be persecuted; injustice will be rife and inequality will prevail. When the Mahdi arrives, all this will end for the Mahdi's revolution will bring about justice and equality. This is one of the most defining characteristic of the traditions of the Mahdi - he will fill the earth with justice and equality just as it will be rife with injustice and oppression. This is a measure by which one can evaluate whether any person claiming to be the Mahdi is a correct one or a fraud.

And herein is a message for the Bahais in this forum. The Bab and Bahaullah have come and gone for more than 150 years. In this period, injustice and inequality have only gone up. Speak to any human and he will vouch for this fact. So, without evaluating other proofs like genealogy, long life, occultation (in all of which the Bab fails misearably) the Bab does not fulfill the basic "necessary and sufficient" condition for being the Mahdi - that if establishing justice in this world. Far from doing that, the Bab, bahaullah and their followers are the ones who are cribbing the most of injustice meted out to them. For more on the Bab v/s the Promoised Mahdi in Quran, please read: http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bab13.html

Hope that clarifies the question.

Regards,

Imran Shaykh

www.bahaiawareness.com

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(salam)

And I disagree with imranshaykh saying the concept of manifestation is not their in Islam, in ziyaratal jamia al-kabeer, it states the Ahlulbayt (as) are God's "baha" (ie. baha'Allah), also in du'a arafa in Saheefa, the Imam of time is said to be "baha al-alimeen". This is not re-incarnation, but the light of God in a measurement, the beautiful names of God, the oneness of God, all radiates from the Imam (as) to the hearts of believers. Call it ghulu, call it shirk, call it what you want, this is the truth.

Dear brother:

I could not find the word Baha in ziyarate jamea - I have not been through dua-e-arafah as yet, but I will. I reiterate, the concept of manifestation does not exist - not atleast the way the Bahais have put it. Just thought I would put it down so that the Bahais dont rejoice and start quoting this as the proof for Bahaullah!

For some reason Russia supported bahais extremely and today bahais side with Zionist - and you are political enemies of Islam, especially in Iran. I am only enemies to you guys as long as you guys are working against us. I believe your beliefs are not bad

Given that we recognise that the Bahais are supported by Israel and that it is not a divine religion, one must pay attention to the deeper rationale for the appearance of this faith. Pay attention to how wahabism, qadianism and bahaism all came at the same time, albeit in different regions - middle east, india/pak and iran respectively - to split the Muslim community. All of them are well supported by the West - the Bahais in America and Israel, Saudi Family by the Americans and Qadianis by United Kingdom.

The Bahais have usurped the position of the Mahdi just as it was done at the time of the death of the Holy Prophet of Islam when another person was reinstated as the caliph in place of Imam Ali (as).

As regards the beliefs of the Bahais, consider the following beliefs which are sufficient to establish their position as disbelievers (as per Islam)

1. They believe that Quran is superceeded by another revelation

2. They do not accept the finality of Prophethood and Messengership of the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh)

3. They deny namaz and the Day of Judegement (as it will occur) as per Islam

4. They have erred in their selection of the 12th Imam as the Mahdi.

Needless to say there is a lot more. But this should be sufficient to establish what are their beliefs and the rationale for the same.

Ws

Imran

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Oh yeah brother ShIaLeB, please be sure that when you investigate the truth, you investigate it from ALL sides, not just one side and then get stuck on that, refusing to budge.

By the way, you ASKED for only ONE hadith from the Prophet . And now you are saying that there's only one hadith in the books!! I'm sorry brother, that's as much as I can do for you. Please ask your friend Link, he will help you remove your doubts as can be seen that he is quite eager to do that.

And just to clarify, those books are not Sunni books.

Link, I'm starting to agree with you and you were absolutely right. The Qur'an has mentioned the characteristics of the hypocrites. You remind me of this part of the hadith of Imam Ali [as] (not that we are seeking "friendship" from you):

Do not make friendship with a fool because when he will try to do you good he will do you harm;

You are harming the faith more than you're doing good. Insha'Allah, Imam [atf] or rather Imam Khomeini will be proud of you.

For some reason Russia supported bahais extremely

Just reading this statement of yours is enough to prove your ignorance. If you know and like so much about the Baha'i why don't you set up a site (or even an anti-Baha'i) for them?

Edited by SpIzo

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(salam)

I never said to reject hadiths. I was emphasizing on marifa yo get tranquility and so the hadiths regarding this would be accept, Spizo, you yourself said to read du'a al-marefa right?

"with your light we were guided" Imam Sajad (as), du'a abu hamza al-thamalee

"the guided are only guided by the light of your face" Imam Sajad (as), Saheefa Sajadiya (the du'a for himself and friends)

So you tell him to read the du'a that starts with "Allahuma arifny nafsika" , irfan is about this and Imams (as) said to seek this knowledge even if you have to go to china.

There is many hadiths about occulation, I believe in them, but I am saying from shialeb to get peace, he needs to get marifa of Allah, then thereby knows Mohamad (pbuh) and his risalat and purpose of the shariah, and thereby knows the role of the hujja of time (as) aswell. Irfan I believe is a start point for him.

And when I said I don't think their beliefs are bad, I am saying it because they believe in one God and the Prophets. They wereasupported (or created) to cause division and even today are enemies. I am saying I don't think they are enemies for thier beliefs but rather because they are working against us with the enemies of ISlam. I wished born bahais would read the Quran and see the truth about the lies they are told, but they acknowledge God and Prophethood and Imama. I think by reading Quran, they can easily come to shia Islam. This is what I meant.

Ps - See i was right about anti-irfan people being anti-wf :)

Edited by Link

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And when I said I don't think their beliefs are bad, I am saying it because they believe in one God and the Prophets. They wereasupported (or created) to cause division and even today are enemies. I am saying I don't think they are enemies for thier beliefs but rather because they are working against us with the enemies of ISlam.

Well, actually even if they are not working with the enemies of Islam, they are still our enemies because of their beliefs. Read up the fatwas of the maraje'. Most of them concur that they are najis and there should be limited interaction with them. Since you've spoken for the first time in a good manner, if you want I'll post Sayyed Khamanei's fatwa to prove what I'm saying.

Ofcourse, it is our duty to show them the right path, but just because Whizbee and brother ImranShaykh (who is the owner of the mentioned anti-Baha'i site) are debating with a Baha'i, you affiliated with the latter to show your "hatred" against us. That doesn't matter actually, because it shows to what level people will stoop to.

Ps - See i was right about anti-irfan people being anti-wf :)

You're wrong again. Because anti-WF doesn't necessarily translate to anti-Irfan. We're not against pure Irfan but we're against Irfan with Sufi infiltrations. :)

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(salam)

Can you show me the scholars who you think teach pure irfan and show me their books about this?

Allah (swt) knows my intention, it is you guys who are twising my words out of your hatred. I never said to reject hadiths, i am saying to seek sure knowledge (marifa), knowledge of the heart which makes you sure of things to get tranquility.

And people can read irfan books, and can read what the scholars against that say, I'm sure every believer can figure out who the blind people are and who are the seeing people are.

btw - since you want to show I am enemy of Islam and Imam MAhdi (as) and eager to expose my hypocracy, Quran says monafiqeen do not understand "treasure of the earth and heavn belong to God", so I guess that would make me the blind person whith no experience and you the seeing persn, then I would have had no experience with any Ahlulbayt (as) with akhira, would not have seen anything, how bout you and I agree to curse who of us two that has never had experience with Ahulbayt (as) light or hidden world, who never seen anything with the heart beyond five senses. IF we both have had, then both of us won't mind do this . Since your hell bent on exposing how "low of human" i am here is your chance. Step up to the plate to show the blind monafiq I am.

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(salam)

Can you show me the scholars who you think teach pure irfan and show me their books about this?

Allah (swt) knows my intention, it is you guys who are twising my words out of your hatred. I never said to reject hadiths, i am saying to seek sure knowledge (marifa), knowledge of the heart which makes you sure of things to get tranquility.

And people can read irfan books, and can read what the scholars against that say, I'm sure every believer can figure out who the blind people are and who are the seeing people are.

btw - since you want to show I am enemy of Islam and Imam MAhdi (as) and eager to expose my hypocracy, Quran says monafiqeen do not understand "treasure of the earth and heavn belong to God", so I guess that would make me the blind person whith no experience and you the seeing persn, then I would have had no experience with any Ahlulbayt (as) with akhira, would not have seen anything, how bout you and I agree to curse who of us two that has never had experience with Ahulbayt (as) light or hidden world, who never seen anything with the heart beyond five senses. IF we both have had, then both of us won't mind do this . Since your hell bent on exposing how "low of human" i am here is your chance. Step up to the plate to show the blind monafiq I am.

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And people can read my post, the main crux of it was arguments against bahais and I myself said I am enemy of bahais because they work against Islam. I am not saying we should be able to marry them or they have status of ahlul-kitab in ISlam so they not najis, but the fact is Quran says Allah (swt) only forbid us for those who fight us. And my emity is because they are fighting us. Not because they believe in another Prophet, I can hate the fake Prophet, but I won't have emity to people just because they born under that religion or follow it. I am enemy to them because they are at war with Islam.

I never sided with him, I infact brought more arguments against him. I've read bahai books and I know how they think. They don't even believe all Prophets (as) are manifestations, they infact believe ulul-izmy (as) are the ones who bring the "manifestation" and the PRophets (as) or Awsiya (as) after them, they are reflection of that revelation brought by the ulul-izmy. The way the believe yamal qayama is that from Ibraheem (as) to Musa (as) that would Nuh's (as) promised yamal qayama to people, Isa (as) to Mohammad (pbuh) being Musa's (as), and their revelation being that yamal qayama of Mohamad (pbuh). Now, this is so easy to refute because we can show them wat Quran says (and they believe Quran is 100% the way it should be) about yamal qayama, for example everyone bad wishing they would have followed the Prophets (as), everyone seeing the truth, everyone regreting all evil they did, fiath of those believing then not doing them any good, etc, etc. I wanted to help the debate but briefly dicussed a disagreement I had (and becuase it relates to wiliyah) not of out emity to anyone.

My advice to Lebshia is becuase I believe God guides those who put their trust in him, and I believe if shiaLeb seeks God he will come to the truth. I suggest irfan books becuase i believe they help do that and help awaken people to the truth and much of the Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) teachings. IF ibrhaeem (as) wanted tranquility while he heard the truth from Allah(swt) himself, then I think we also can wish for insight of the truth no matter how much hadiths exist telling us. Yes the hadiths are proof and we should believe in what is passed, but tranquility doesn't come this way. And don't Mariji say not to do taqleed for aqeeda, so does this mean we should all do our studies of ilmel rijaal for aqeeda? I think the reason why they say that is because they know with regard to our faith, we need to see the truth and not just accept because they so (and they know ilmel rijal right, so they know what hadiths ae right).

And hadiths with regards to beliefs are explanation of Quran and truth, and we should seek the help of hadiths aswell. But were not like salafis who put all their trust in their guesses of who is a liar and who is truthful, our faith is supported by both reason and Quran and it's the truth, and the truth can be known with the sure eye.

Edited by Link

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And people can read irfan books, and can read what the scholars against that say, I'm sure every believer can figure out who the blind people are and who are the seeing people are.

Yeah sure. Allah [swt] knows our intention too.

btw - since you want to show I am enemy of Islam and Imam MAhdi (as) and eager to expose my hypocracy, Quran says monafiqeen do not understand "treasure of the earth and heavn belong to God", so I guess that would make me the blind person whith no experience and you the seeing persn, then I would have had no experience with any Ahlulbayt (as) with akhira, would not have seen anything, how bout you and I agree to curse who of us two that has never had experience with Ahulbayt (as) light or hidden world, who never seen anything with the heart beyond five senses. IF we both have had, then both of us won't mind do this . Since your hell bent on exposing how "low of human" i am here is your chance. Step up to the plate to show the blind monafiq I am.

Lol, was it us who first used the word 'nifaq'? Or was it YOU, in the other thread? And where did we show or imply that you are an enemy of Islam or Imam Mahdi [atf]? In fact, that's what you have been doing in the contentious thread.

And yeah, the "cursing" part is blindness. I'm ready to such a duel, but only one thing will stop me from doing it: That is, whatever you stance on myriad of issues, you're still a Shi'a. And it could be possible that our Imam [atf] will not be happy with it because believing in Wilayat-e-Faqih or adulterated Irfan isn't a part of Usul-e-Deen and there's no hadith which mentions that not believing in these two will make you a kafir or vice-versa. According to you, we may be worse than Baha'is or we maybe munafiqs, that's your character and it's you who will be answerable regarding it to Allah [swt] and His Hujjah [atf]. But according to us, whatever your beliefs, you are still a Shi'a. And that stops us from responding to such contumelies.

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For shiaLeb:

They (i.e., Muslims) took to the right and the left piercing through to the ways of evil and leaving the paths of guidance. Do not make haste for a matter which is to happen and is awaited, and do not wish for delay in what the morrow is to bring for you. For, how many people make haste for a matter, but when they get it they begin to wish they had not got it. How near is today to the dawning of tomorrow. O people, this is the time for the occurrence of every promised event and the approach of things which you do not know. Whoever from us (i.e., ahl al-bayt) will exist during these days will move through them with a burning lamp and will tread on the footsteps of the virtuous, in order to unfasten knots, to free slates, to divide the united and unite the divided. He will be in concealment (sitra) from people. The stalker will not find his footprints even though he pursues with his eye. Then a group of people will be sharpened like the sharpening of swords by the blacksmith. Their sight will be brightened by the revelation (tanzil, i.e., the Qur'an), the interpretation will be put in their ears and they will be given drinks of wisdom, morning and evening.

Imam Ali (as) Nahjul Balagha.

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I wanted to help the debate

Oh, that's good!

but briefly dicussed a disagreement I had (and becuase it relates to wiliyah) not of out emity to anyone.
You see, if you're owner of a website responding to non-Muslims or even non-Shi'a, you will understand when the enemies (in this case, the Baha'is) will use your "disagreement" to prove their point and indirectly show the credibility of the site, which as it is they have been terming it as false. The least you could have done is PM the brother, and corrected him, if in any case he was wrong.

Yes the hadiths are proof and we should believe in what is passed, but tranquility doesn't come this way.

You may have given him some good advice, but your post (unconsciously) revealed hostility towards us (as Imam Ali [as] said: Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts). But for once, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

And hadiths with regards to beliefs are explanation of Quran and truth, and we should seek the help of hadiths aswell. But were not like salafis who put all their trust in their guesses of who is a liar and who is truthful, our faith is supported by both reason and Quran and it's the truth, and the truth can be known with the sure eye.
Okay. I liked the fact, that you said "our faith". :)

EDIT: I would just like to add to this:

Imam Ali Nahjul Balagha.

Link, maybe you missed this but according to ShIaLeB: And YES, a saying from the Prophet is worth more than any Imam's sayings

Edited by SpIzo

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And yeah, the "cursing" part is blindness. I'm ready to such a duel, but only one thing will stop me from doing it: That is, whatever you stance on myriad of issues, you're still a Shi'a. And it could be possible that our Imam [atf] will not be happy with it because believing in Wilayat-e-Faqih or adulterated Irfan isn't a part of Usul-e-Deen and there's no hadith which mentions that not believing in these two will make you a kafir or vice-versa. According to you, we may be worse than Baha'is or we maybe munafiqs, that's your character and it's you who will be answerable regarding it to Allah [swt] and His Hujjah [atf]. But according to us, whatever your beliefs, you are still a Shi'a. And that stops us from responding to such contumelies.

They will bow and s[Edited Out]e when it comes to the Sunnis, the deniers of the Imamat of Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as). They will call them brothers and call for "unity" with the followers of the cursed murderers of the Prophet's daughter. But when it comes to the Shia of Ali (as) who don't accept Khomeini's "Imamat", they will insult them and call them munafiqs.

Here we have a Bahai, a kafir, denying our Imam’s occultation, claiming that his Bab (la) is the Mahdi, trying to usurp our father's right and all the brother can think of is getting back at the "hypocrites" who don't believe in his WF. And then they talk about “uniting the Ummah”.

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Whizbee, looks like Mr. I_Bahai is confused. Because he stated this at first: Didnt the Prophet Muhammad inform you to search for the Truth if future Prophets make a claim?

And then he is saying "manifestation of God"!

Hello friends.

For clarification, I might add: in arabic (and hence in the Quran) there is a strong differencation between Prophet and Manifestation or Messenger of God (nabi, rasul)... In English (or German or Spanish or Portuguese, the languages I am more familiar with), this strong seperation does not exist, the line between these terms is much more "fluid", as I am sure it is in many other languages. So while to you it may seem you are discussing a truly important point, for someone who comes from a different language background it seems like a discussion over mere technicalities. To avoid such things, it is always best to refer to Holy Scripture, to that which the respective Founders of the Faiths said/wrote themselves. So when "Mr. Bahai" used these terms carelessly, I do believe he will support me when I say: it is merely language differences. I'm sure he meant nothing by it.

By the way, the bahaiawareness website is filled with false statements. Ali Muhammad (the Bab) did carry the title of Sayyid, just as one example. And as far as the comment goes about showing proof of why these statements are false, there is also show no proof shown on the website, no citations, no sources, no means of verification. Do your homework first before you criticize someone for not doing theirs.

I hope I was fair to all sides and could bring some clarity into this conversation.

Loving greetings to all.

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Hello friends.

For clarification, I might add: in arabic (and hence in the Quran) there is a strong differencation between Prophet and Manifestation or Messenger of God (nabi, rasul)... In English (or German or Spanish or Portuguese, the languages I am more familiar with), this strong seperation does not exist, the line between these terms is much more "fluid", as I am sure it is in many other languages. So while to you it may seem you are discussing a truly important point, for someone who comes from a different language background it seems like a discussion over mere technicalities. To avoid such things, it is always best to refer to Holy Scripture, to that which the respective Founders of the Faiths said/wrote themselves. So when "Mr. Bahai" used these terms carelessly, I do believe he will support me when I say: it is merely language differences. I'm sure he meant nothing by it.

By the way, the bahaiawareness website is filled with false statements. Ali Muhammad (the Bab) did carry the title of Sayyid, just as one example. And as far as the comment goes about showing proof of why these statements are false, there is also show no proof shown on the website, no citations, no sources, no means of verification. Do your homework first before you criticize someone for not doing theirs.

I hope I was fair to all sides and could bring some clarity into this conversation.

Loving greetings to all.

Mr Gabster, it appears that you have not seen / read www.bahaiawareness.com at all. The web site is full of references from Bahai books, Shia books as well books from the Ahle Sunnat. In fact it is your statement - "bahaiawareness.com is without proof or citations or means of verification" is without any proof at all.

Here is a ref from www.bahaiawareness.com which establishes that Bahaullah himself said that the Holy Prophet is the last Prophet and Messenger of Allah - http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bahai14.html. And yes, it contains references and original book proofs as well.

Here is another reference wherein Ali Mohammed Shirazi - The Bab confessed to the presence of the 12th Imam (as) - http://www.bahaiawareness.com/babc.html. And yes, it contains references and original book proofs as well.

The problem with the Bahais is that they dont want to accept these proofs. The greatest link to Bahaullah lies in the Bab. And the Bahais hide the books of the Bab. Less than 200 years and the Bahais claim that no original books of the Bab are present. The only book they have is "Selections from the Writings of the Bab". Ask them for the books from where they "selected" the writings of the Bab and the UHJ will tell you that the books are under review.

Which reminds me - here is another link from www.bahaiawareness.com with proofs and citations et all http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bab04b.html which establishes that the Bab was not the hidden Imam as the Bahais tend to claim.

And if readers want more - here are links to establish that the Bab was nothing compared to the personality of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Imam Mahdi (as).

http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bab12.html

http://www.bahaiawareness.com/bab13.html

Secondly, I agree with your comment that for interpretations, one must go to the founders of the Faith. Please inform the Bahais so that they can stop tiring us with their translations produced by Pitckhall and Abdullah Yusuf Ali. While these are important, they are worth a lot less in enhancing our understanding of the Quran and its interpretation when we compare them to the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) who followed him.

Regards,

Imran Shaykh

www.bahaiawareness.com

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