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In the Name of God بسم الله

What is a dhimmi or dhimmitude?

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7 hours ago, kadhim said:

And in trying to invoke the dhimmah system as a “solution” to this phenomenon, you’re still kind of failing to engage with the point I raised earlier, that, ironically, the dhimmah system was originally precisely a system to install minority rule by Muslims in conquered territories where other faiths were the majority. 

Salam technically this system has applied to new conquered lands which has been counted as muslim territories after conquering so therefore muslims must be rulers  of that new conquered lands anyway procedure of "dhimmah system" which has applied by cursed Umayads & Abbasids & Ottomans has not in line with Islamic teachings which they just  have installed a corrup system for colonization & looting resources under guise dhimmah system  which it's aim has been just misusing from talents of non-muslims & stealing their properties under wrong & corrupt interpretation of the dhimmah system  which only at time of  caliphate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) it has applied based on Islamic principles which in a famous story when Imam Ali (عليه السلام) see a blind beggar Christians who due to blindness & old age couldn't work for muslims so then muslims left him in worst condition so therefore he seriously criticized muslims for not helping him so then ordered that he receives life pensin from state treasury anyway after him until Safavid era his policy has not practiced which in Safavid era a weak copy of his policy applied to minorities which for examples Armenias inside Iran have better condition at Iran than Armenians in Ottoman region which thei r genocide has been done by Ottomans while Armenias in Iran always have been in safety which still now Armenians who stayed at Iran or returned to Armenia have positive ties with Iran which at Armenia ,the Armenias who returened from Iran have a title of Iranian-Armenias which they always consider Iran with good meories which one of nominant Armenians Loris Tjeknavorian who has raised at Iran which he has had great rule & influence on music in Iran which although he has been"instrumental in the 1991 campaign for Armenian independence" which he could left Iran for rest of his life after indepence of Armenia even now he prefers Iran to other places .

 

 

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The Retirement

The old man, a Christian by religion, had worked all his life; but had not been able to save anything for his old age. Lately he had become also blind. Old age, poverty and blindness had joined hands and he had no other way except begging. He used to stand at the corner of a lane for begging. People had compassion for him and gave him some alms from which he ate every day, and so he continued his sad life.

One day Ali, the Leader of the Faithful passed through the lane and saw the beggar in that condition. Ali, out of his concern for others, enquired about the old man. He wanted to know the factors which led him to that condition. "Had he no son to support him? Or, is there no other way for him to live a respectable life in his old age?"

The people who knew the old man came forward and informed Ali that he was a Christian and, had worked hard so long as he had his eyes, and was young and strong. Now that he had lost his youth as well as his eyes he was unable to do any work; also he had no savings, so it was natural that he was begging. Ali said, "Strange! Till he had strength you extracted work from him and now you have left him on his own?" His story shows that he had worked when he had the strength. Therefore, it is the duty of the Government and the society to support him till he is alive. Go, and give him a life-pension from the State-treasury.”

https://www.al-islam.org/anecdotes-pious-men-murtadha-mutahhari/retirement

 

Composer and conductor Loris Tjeknavorian shares his memories of independence

https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1028357/

Iranian maestro proposed as UN peace ambassador

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Loris Tjeknavorian, born on 13 October 1937 in Borujerd, is an Iranian Armenian composer and conductor.

As one of the leading conductors of his generation, he has led international orchestras throughout the world such as in Austria, the UK, the USA, Canada, Hungary, Copenhagen, Iran, Finland, Russia, Armenia, Thailand, Hong Kong, South Africa and Denmark.

https://en.irna.ir/news/83494445/Iranian-maestro-proposed-as-UN-peace-ambassador

Composer and conductor Loris Tjeknavorian talks to Rob Barnett

Rob Barnett. Where were you born?

Loris Tjeknavorian. I was born in Boroujerd, a city in the ancient province of Lorestan in the Zagros Mountains of Western Iran. Though far from Tehran, Isfahan, Shiraz, and other Persian cultural centres, Boroujerd was known throughout Iran as a very cultivated town. My grandfather was in charge of the health services there.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/jan/Tjeknavorian_interview.htm

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7 hours ago, kadhim said:

Another point is that setting policy against this sort of thing punishes people for being socially organized and efficient, which ultimately tends to harm the society. Look at the example of Arab countries in the second half of the 20th century and beyond, and their Christian and Jewish populations. These minority populations were responsible for a lot of the economic productivity of their countries. When pan-Islamism contributed to making them feel unwelcome, they left in droves, and the countries suffered for that. 

It's not just about Arabs which america has done musch worse thing about it's Japanese residents during WW2 which still now is one of greatest dark points in history of America  which American official narrative & reports always have tried to hide it with heavy propganda about happy living of Japanese in camps likewise "Manzanar"

One Camp, Ten Thousand Lives; One Camp, Ten Thousand Stories

https://www.nps.gov/manz/index.htm

https://www.nps.gov/manz/learn/historyculture/japanese-americans-at-manzanar.htm

https://www.britannica.com/event/Japanese-American-internment/Life-in-the-camps

Japanese-American Incarceration During World War II

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The attack on Pearl Harbor also launched a rash of fear about national security, especially on the West Coast. In February 1942, just two months later, President Roosevelt, as commander-in-chief, issued Executive Order 9066 that resulted in the internment of Japanese Americans. The order authorized the Secretary of War and military commanders to evacuate all persons deemed a threat from the West Coast to internment camps, that the government called "relocation centers,"

https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/japanese-relocation

The Return of Japanese Americans to the West Coast in 1945

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In late October 1945, Kimiko Keimi and her 13 year old son, Harold “Hal” Keimi, left Heart Mountain, Wyoming, one of America’s concentration camps, to return to Los Angeles. Although they were returning to their hometown, they were unable to reclaim their house, which was adjacent to the laundry that they previously operated in Hollywood. Instead, their final destination became a temporary trailer installation, which the federal government opened for Japanese Americans returning from America’s concentration camps. The trailer that the two shared felt like anything but home. The same could be said for the room that they later shared within a San Fernando Valley home, which Kimiko received as part of her compensation for domestic work. For the first time, the Keimi family was forced to split apart. 

 

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. While the executive order was issued shortly after Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor, it was not solely in response to this one act. Instead, it was part of a continuum of a long history of prejudice and discrimination aimed at Japanese immigrants and their American-born children. Detention in America’s concentration camps was never intended to be indefinite. 

 

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Very early on, if incarcerees could demonstrate their loyalty and prove acceptance to a university or offer of employment and housing, they were eligible for indefinite leave. Initially, they could not return to the exclusionary zone on the West Coast. Instead, the War Relocation Authority used promotional brochures and pamphlets, to entice incarcerees to resettle in cities such as Chicago, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, Detroit, and New York.

 

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the ongoing mass detention of Japanese Americans, solely on the basis of race. Mitsuye Endo, who was a California state employee prior to World War II, claimed that exclusion from the West Coast prevented her from continuing with her employment. The US Supreme Court ruled in favor of Endo, but was quite careful not to address the topic of constitutional rights.

 

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 despite the Allied Forces’ success in the Pacific and European theaters and the contributions of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team, an all Japanese American segregated military unit, on the front lines.

 

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Others, who were forced to liquidate their businesses, give up their homes, and sell their material possessions prior to the forced removal, felt they had nothing to return to on the West Coast. With little choice, they decided to make home again elsewhere.

 

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while returning to a hostile social climate proved difficult, the most pressing challenges centered on securing housing and employment. The housing shortage, which was a challenge prior to the war, became the most acute issue in California. The combination of migrants who arrived during the war, GIs making their way home from overseas, and returning Japanese Americans who had been forcibly removed during the war added further strain to the housing situation. Hostels, hotels, and trailer installations provided temporary shelter for returning Japanese Americans who had no other options. Racial housing covenants continued to put restrictions on where Japanese and other people of color could purchase homes. Similarly, prejudice limited the job opportunities for returning Japanese Americans, relegating them mostly to work in domestic service, gardening, and the garment industry.

 

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While this mentality may have helped the community to rebuild, it had its consequences. The pain and trauma that Japanese Americans experienced during World War II has continued to affect subsequent generations. The healing process continues today, long past the formal apology and reparations that came with redress. It remains important to focus on this aspect of US history—not just to remember, but also to ensure that this never happens again. This episode in history is a reminder of the fragility of our Constitution and the need to safeguard civil liberties for all.

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/return-japanese-americans-west-coast-1945

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^ Look, if you’re going to obnoxiously pop in to interrupt the conversation at the grown ups table, at least make effort to get your facts straight. I don’t know where you got the impression that the US government is actively suppressing its historical wrongs with respect to the Japanese internment. The government apologized formally for this and paid out compensation in 1988, under the Reagan administration. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/09/210138278/japanese-internment-redress

Note. It also looks pretty bizarre when you claim the US government is covering this up, and then quote from all sorts of government-funded sites and monuments actively remembering these mistakes.

.nps is the National Park Service. They have a national historical site as a monument to this failure.

archives.gov are the US national archives. 

It often takes a few years, but the US ultimately generally eventually takes ownership of its mistakes. That’s one of the admirable things about them as a nation. 

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On 12/1/2022 at 5:14 AM, kadhim said:

It often takes a few years, but the US ultimately generally eventually takes ownership of its mistakes.

A fair few have been queued up until such time as Henry Kissinger dies, I think.

On 11/30/2022 at 4:22 PM, kadhim said:

For example, how would you react if the Tories in the UK tried to impose such limitations on British Muslims like yourself?

I think transparent rules would be better than the current system, in a variety of situations.

For example in its quest for diversity greater attempts are made to recruit Muslims into the armed forces. But those recruits are expected to bomb Muslims with the same level of enthusiasm as everyone else. I don't think that is right and if there was a dispensation with some compromise on the part of Muslim soldiers, I think that would be a good thing.

I'd need to come back to you later about other specific policy measures, but an obvious one would be to consider whether the current system of political representation could be improved if something like the Iranian system were adopted, where Jews are represented on the basis of their make up in the population (AIUI).

I think that is fairer than the current system where Muslim MPs are elected to Westminster but invariably with some level of compromise to their beliefs, whichever party they belong to.

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6 hours ago, kadhim said:

It often takes a few years, but the US ultimately generally eventually takes ownership of its mistakes. That’s one of the admirable things about them as a nation. 

it might be admirable if they learnt something from their mistakes. taking ownership of your mistakes means learning from them. The US is still as rotten as it was back then, except for the advancements in decreasing discrimination and some other things. In fact i'll say its worse at least in foreign policy.

The US has since committed far worse crimes, under the radar and out into the open. Abu Ghraib prison and Iraq are good examples, Afghanistan is another good example. I'm not criticising USA because its not perfect, but because of its continued atrocities against the rest of the world and its collapsing of many democracies(ironically) + the continued sanctions on other countries, which makes it the most rotten country, excluding Israel. Other countries that have terrible internal problems are bad too, but at the very least, they aren't terrorising the rest of the world. 

Taking ownership of mistakes is worthless if the US don't learn from them.  

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56 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

it might be admirable if they learnt something from their mistakes. taking ownership of your mistakes means learning from them. The US is still as rotten as it was back then, except for the advancements in decreasing discrimination and some other things. In fact i'll say its worse at least in foreign policy.

The US has since committed far worse crimes, under the radar and out into the open. Abu Ghraib prison and Iraq are good examples, Afghanistan is another good example. I'm not criticising USA because its not perfect, but because of its continued atrocities against the rest of the world and its collapsing of many democracies(ironically) + the continued sanctions on other countries, which makes it the most rotten country, excluding Israel. Other countries that have terrible internal problems are bad too, but at the very least, they aren't terrorising the rest of the world. 

Taking ownership of mistakes is worthless if the US don't learn from them.  

Well said voidvortex.

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1 hour ago, VoidVortex said:

it might be admirable if they learnt something from their mistakes. taking ownership of your mistakes means learning from them. The US is still as rotten as it was back then, except for the advancements in decreasing discrimination and some other things. In fact i'll say its worse at least in foreign policy.

The US has since committed far worse crimes, under the radar and out into the open. Abu Ghraib prison and Iraq are good examples, Afghanistan is another good example. I'm not criticising USA because its not perfect, but because of its continued atrocities against the rest of the world and its collapsing of many democracies(ironically) + the continued sanctions on other countries, which makes it the most rotten country, excluding Israel. Other countries that have terrible internal problems are bad too, but at the very least, they aren't terrorising the rest of the world. 

Taking ownership of mistakes is worthless if the US don't learn from them.  

Yeah, I’m going to choose not going to indulge this “change the channel” tangent any farther. 

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Salam @kadhim you can choose not going to indulge in this anyway in order to deny falling apart  of your Utopia (America)

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Dhimmi use of Sharia courts

This is a bit of a side issue to the main topic, but I thought I'd record it here. I've previously mentioned the book I was reading on this topic and it mentioned this article:

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Al-Qattan, N. (1999). Dhimmīs in the Muslim Court: Legal Autonomy and Religious Discrimination. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 31(3), 429-444. doi:10.1017/S0020743800055501

 

Screenshot 2022-12-23 at 11.22.09.png

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On 11/21/2022 at 8:15 AM, Haji 2003 said:

But in my opinion the diimmi system addresses the more serious problem of the majority being oppressed by the minority.

I think it's worth noting that in western societies the possibility that this may happen is recognised, the following quotation is about anti-trust laws in the US (my bold).

 

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The Sherman Act outlaws "every contract, combination, or conspiracy in restraint of trade," and any "monopolization, attempted monopolization, or conspiracy or combination to monopolize." Long ago, the Supreme Court decided that the Sherman Act does not prohibit every restraint of trade, only those that are unreasonable. For instance, in some sense, an agreement between two individuals to form a partnership restrains trade, but may not do so unreasonably, and thus may be lawful under the antitrust laws. On the other hand, certain acts are considered so harmful to competition that they are almost always illegal. These include plain arrangements among competing individuals or businesses to fix prices, divide markets, or rig bids. These acts are "per se" violations of the Sherman Act; in other words, no defense or justification is allowed.

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws

 

Of course this is referring to collusion in the general sense and between any market participants and applies to all regardless of religion. But it does establish the principle that small groups can collude in order to benefit themselves at the expense of wider society.

The Islamic angle appears to me to be one which recognises that such collusion may be more likely to happen between members of the same religion given their shared values etc. and bonds of trust

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