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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ibn Abu Talib

Interesting article on the Dead Sea Scrolls

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With no orginals, how can you prove it's been changed?

Was it changed before or after Mohammed told you to observe the previous books? (Torah, Bible).  If before, then he was telling you to observe corrupt books.  This puts HIS divine knowledge into question.  If after, then your claim falls flat on it's face, as the Biblical document of 1400 years ago are pretty much the same today.

Really? What verses....  :dry:

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ofcourse before the prohet (pbuh) .his knowledege is from a divine souerce.god knows what he sent and what he did not.he didnt tell us to observe them.the true books are known to god.and he could have had access.chek donald morgan.

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"dont worship any other god".great to hear that from you to avoid a clash with the muslims?were on earth have a prophet preached trinity?

....this same 10 commandments the quran preach them

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Hmm, the trinity argument again.

If some people find comfort in the trinity then that is a matter for them. It isn't my place, nor yours to judge others. We are discussing Islam here, not the beliefs of some Christstians.

Muslims attempt to follow a version of the 10 Commandments as modifiied by the Israelites to suit their leaders.

This is what Jesus specifically taught against.

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has any right to sit in judgement of another person on behalf of God.

To do so is putting yourself on a par with God.

i dont understand how you can argue in this way.did jesus contradict abraham?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did not say any such thing!

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Hmm, the trinity argument again.

If some people find comfort in the trinity then that is a matter for them. It isn't my place, nor yours to judge others. We are discussing Islam here, not the beliefs of some Christstians.

Muslims attempt to follow a version of the 10 Commandments as modifiied by the Israelites to suit their leaders.

This is what Jesus specifically taught against.

Neither you, nor I, nor anyone else has any right to sit in judgement of another person on behalf of God.

To do so is putting yourself on a par with God.

I did not say any such thing!

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i dont know what you are arguin about.you accept that the bible is not the word of god but contains the word of god.this is what the muslims have always being trying to say.we are not judging .we reasoning things out.trinity was not preached by any messenger.an innovation started after jesus.

you tried to point out that jesus did not follow the steps of those before him by saying they sinned.and sayin they could be fraud while the bible praise them and jesus never opposed them.so one tep forward.the bible is not the word of god.

another step forward that abraham ,david....were not opposed by jesus.so as jesus said he did not innovate anything.lets dont run away from where we started about the bible and then trinity.so if the past prophet did noy preach trinity and also jesus,the next step is for you to reject the trinity.then you will realise the foillowin:

judaiosm is rebellious and only for jews

christianity is confused,corrupt ,polytheistic and cannot guide.

islam monotheistic ,believe in all the messengers and prophets and universal.

now you can see that the prophets do not contradict themselves in teachin the word of go ,nuch as you claimed prophet muhammad (pbuh) contradicted jesus (as) and jesus (as) contradicted the others.you even went further to say those prophets were sinners .meaning hypocrites yet the bible praises them and jesus did not oppose them ,makin him another fraud? now you can see the non contradiction of islam and all the messengers and the falsity of trinity and christianity.

check out:http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

Edited by mehdi soldier

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trinity was not preached by any messenger.an innovation started after jesus.

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The Trinity is a philosophical device which brings comfort to some.

Muslims tend to rant about there being only one God as if this is something only they know and accept. For Christians, this fact is as obvious as water being wet!!

Most Christians, even those who accept the trinity, find this ranting to be incomprehensible.

All Christians know there is only one God.

you tried to point out that jesus did not follow the steps of those before him by saying they sinned.and sayin they could be fraud while the bible praise them and jesus never opposed them.

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No, I was pointing out that Jesus came to reaffirm the truth of the 10 commandments.

I was also pointing out that those who have been given the title of prophet, at times, clearly behaved in ways which were reprehensible and often contrary to the 10 Commandments which are the laws of God.

judaiosm is rebellious and only for jews

christianity is confused,corrupt ,polytheistic and cannot guide.

islam monotheistic ,believe in all the messengers and prophets and universal.

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God gave Moses the 10 commandments. The people whom Moses was leading were almost certainly originating from many different parts of the world. It is likely that Moses was a member of the Egyptian ruling class, probably the Governor of a large city and led the people out of that city on the orders of God.

The claims that all of these people were decendents of a single family and were enslaved were probably fabricated later to create a sense of cohesion within the emerging nation.

The stories in Genisis were probably a collection accumulated from the various backgrounds of those people. It is certainly true that creation stories such as the Garden of Eden exist in other cultures, including Indo China!

The people who assumed leadership after Moses clearly lacked faith to carry our God's Commandments. It was they who adapted the commandments to give themselves authority to defy them, such as the authority to order killing.

Jesus was sent to reaffirm the literal truth of the 10 Commandments and to clarifiy them.

check out:http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

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Yes, well, Donald Morgan is the latest source to be wheeled out by your leaders who seem to tell you what to think. (I say this because it is rather surprising how many Muslims are suddenly quoting Donald Morgan.)

I wonder if you would be so quick to cite this fellow if you know what he was actually saying??

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The Trinity is a philosophical device which brings comfort to some.

Muslims tend to rant about there being only one God as if this is something only they know and accept. For Christians, this fact is as obvious as water being wet!!

Most Christians, even those who accept the trinity, find this ranting to be incomprehensible.

All Christians know there is only one God.

No, I was pointing out that Jesus came to reaffirm the truth of the 10 commandments.

I was also pointing out that those who have been given the title of prophet, at times,  clearly behaved in ways which were reprehensible and often contrary to the 10 Commandments which are the laws of God.

God gave Moses the 10 commandments. The people whom Moses was leading were almost certainly originating from many different parts of the world. It is likely that Moses was a member of the Egyptian ruling class, probably the Governor of a large city and led the people out of that city on the orders of God.

The claims that all of these people were decendents of a single family and were enslaved were probably fabricated later to create a sense of cohesion within the emerging nation.

The stories in Genisis were probably a collection accumulated from the various backgrounds of those people. It is certainly true that creation stories such as the Garden of Eden exist in other cultures, including Indo China!

The people who assumed leadership after Moses clearly lacked faith to carry our God's Commandments. It was they who adapted the commandments to give themselves authority to defy them, such as the authority to order killing.

Jesus was sent to reaffirm the literal truth of the 10 Commandments and to clarifiy them.

Yes, well, Donald Morgan is the latest source to be wheeled out by your leaders who seem to tell you what to think. (I say this because it is rather surprising how many Muslims are suddenly quoting Donald Morgan.)

I wonder if you would be so quick to cite this fellow if you know what he was actually saying??

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very smart ,but very illogical and false.i dont even know now what you are arguing about.just to be seen as smart in darkness.

1you accepted the bible is not the word of god.

2you now accept that the trinity is confusing and there is only one god ,the god of jesus himself.

3you implicity accept that the prophrts are hypocrites.were they doing it for a reason.or did jesus covered their "mess"?

4you accepted that jesus did not copme to innovate but to reaffirm the truth of the 10commandments of which trinity is not part.

so youve accepted the logic which is contrary to christian beliefs .now do you sincerely think yopu are still christian?!

you refuted trinity implicitly.rejected the bible being the word of god.again implicitly acknowledge that the stories of genesis are not authentically biblical.you accepted that there is no innovation in the path of god in other words the 10 commandments as a source.

to tell you the truth i have no problem with you if you truly practice what you claim to believe because it is not christian.neither are u a jew.you accept jesus.your next step is for you to prove that jesus is a creature of god and a messenger.then you are closer to islam.then i swear you will easily become muslim insha Allah.you will see that the prophet muhammad (pbuh) also did not innovate to contradict his predecessor.by yourself refutin what you did and acceptin what you claim to believe have gone against yopurself from where i started the debate about prophet muhammad (pbuh) contradictin jesus (as) and jesus contradictin other.thank you very much.i have never had a more successful and bright debate than this.

i swear that i never knew about morgan from anyone.it was coincidentally that i came across his work .we care less about him.its just that he made it easier for us by give oroves and citing the contradiction.this ios great to make you accept that the bvible is not authentic.a witness against itself.you have accept it is not the word of god but contains the word of god written by men like the muslim hadith which are prone to error and fabrication.how do you still depend on it for your guidance?

Edited by mehdi soldier

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1you accepted the bible is not the word of god.

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No, I said the Bible contains the word of God. It is self evident that it is an historical document, recounting the lives and teachings of a great number of people.

2you now accept that the trinity is confusing and there is only one god ,the god of jesus himself.

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I said no such thing. The trinity is a philosophical device. The relationship of jesus to God is complicated by Jesus not being as other men. Jesus was created for a purpose.

3you implicity accept that the prophrts are hypocrites.were they doing it for a reason.or did jesus covered their "mess"?

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I said no such thing. I said that those who are accorded the title of prophet clearly have, at times, behaved in ways which are reprehensible and even in difiance of God's Commandments.

4you accepted that jesus did not copme to innovate but to reaffirm the truth of the 10commandments of which trinity is not part.

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Not quite. The trinity is a philosophical device used by some to understand the mysteries which others understand in other ways.

so youve accepted the logic which is contrary to christian beliefs .now do you sincerely think yopu are still christian?!

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Nothing I have said is contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

Nothing I have said is contrary to the beliefs of most Christians.

you refuted trinity

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I did no such thing! The trinity is a philosophical device used by some Christians.

then i swear you will easily become muslim insha Allah.

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I would never even consider joining with any group which defies the Commandments of God.

you will see that the prophet muhammad (pbuh) also did not innovate to contradict his predecessor.

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I'm sorry, but he most certainly did. He supports killing and judging people on behalf of God.

i swear that i never knew about morgan from anyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I accept your word. But I do suggest that before you quote Morgan or anyone else you check what they are actually saying.

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No, I said the Bible contains the word of God. It is self evident that it is an historical document, recounting the lives and teachings of a great number of people.

I said no such thing. The trinity is a philosophical device. The relationship of jesus to God is complicated by Jesus not being as other men. Jesus was created for a purpose.

I said no such thing. I said that those who are accorded the title of prophet clearly have, at times, behaved in ways which are reprehensible and even in difiance of God's Commandments.

Not quite. The trinity is a philosophical device used by some to understand the mysteries which others understand in other ways.

Nothing I have said is contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

Nothing I have said is contrary to the beliefs of most Christians.

I did no such thing! The trinity is a philosophical device used by some Christians.

I would never even consider joining with any group which defies the Commandments of God.

I'm sorry, but he most certainly did. He supports killing and judging people on behalf of God.

I accept your word. But I do suggest that before you quote Morgan or anyone else you check what they are actually saying.

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my dear you said and accepted what the muslims have always being trying to say.

1the bible is not the word of god but contain the word of god .did you actually read what i wrote.

2you said the trinity is not accepted by all christians .you also accepted that jesus came to reaffirm the 10commandments taught by those before him.in other words jesus did not come to innovate.you will find out trinity is not part of the 10 commandments but as you said some cxhristians accept it (on thyeir own) for their comfort.

3 you did not answer me whether the prophets acted "badly" for a reason or they were hypocrites ,thus making jesus one of them because he did not oppose them.the purpose of this is over.you have said jesus came to reaffirm in other words not to innovate.

4you will be lieing if you say jesus innovated anything or taught the trinity.if he did christianity would not have witnessed what it did in the days of athanasius.

5you are contradicting yourself.or you have not answered anything.you have to think clearly and consistently.you are talkin with a muslim.i dont accept half arguments just to free your image.

6morgan who you oppose is more convincing than you because vhe cited concrete evidence.can show me the innovations or contradictions of islam or rather your misconceptions ,so that i can clear them.

7when you talk about killing ,its as if you are an atheist.i can proof the righteousness of our prophet only if you can cite your misconceptions.

finally ,lets dont try to twist things to get away from them.lets prove everything.

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finally ,lets dont try to twist things to get away from them.lets prove everything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus was sent to reaffirm and clarify the 10 Commandments.

Any laws or customs which contradict the 10 Commandments are to be ignored.

The proof is in the Gospels.

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I'm sorry, but he most certainly did. He supports killing and judging people on behalf of God.

That should read as he supported killing people who attacked the Muslims and only in defense and he left the judgement to God. He prayed for forgiveness like all humans, unlike Christianity Islam is very emphatic on forgiveness coming only from He who has created us rather than from His son.

The proof is in the Gospels

Oh, you mean the same Gospels with the whole Genealogy issue between two of them?

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That should read as he supported killing people who attacked the Muslims and only in defense and he left the judgement to God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No it shouldn't.

Muhammad's teachings support killing people. His reasons are irrelevant. Killing people is forbidden by the 6th commandment. There are no exceptions.

Oh, you mean the same Gospels with the whole Genealogy issue between two of them?

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Any issues are in the minds of those who put these ideas into Muslim's mouths.

I appreciate that, like all Muslims, you will try to claim that you thought of this yourself, but the uniformity of the many issues against Christianity endlessly spouted by so many Muslims from so many diverse parts suggests that they are all taught the same things.

You might try asking yourself why it is that your leaders want you to think these things?

What is it they don't want you to know?

Why don't they want you to read the facts for yourself?

What are they frightened of?

What are you frightened of?

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No it shouldn't.

Muhammad's teachings support killing people. His reasons are irrelevant. Killing people is forbidden by the 6th commandment. There are no exceptions.

Any issues are in the minds of those who put these ideas into Muslim's mouths.

I appreciate that, like all Muslims, you will try to claim that you thought of this yourself, but the uniformity of the many issues against Christianity endlessly spouted by so many Muslims from so many diverse parts suggests that they are all taught the same things.

You might try asking yourself why it is that your leaders want you to think these things?

What is it they don't want you to know?

Why don't they want you to read the facts for yourself?

What are they frightened of?

What are you frightened of?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Muslims do not frieghten easily.

What does all of this have to do with the "Dead Sea Scrolls"?

Peace

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No it shouldn't.

Muhammad's teachings support killing people. His reasons are irrelevant. Killing people is forbidden by the 6th commandment. There are no exceptions.

Any issues are in the minds of those who put these ideas into Muslim's mouths.

I appreciate that, like all Muslims, you will try to claim that you thought of this yourself, but the uniformity of the many issues against Christianity endlessly spouted by so many Muslims from so many diverse parts suggests that they are all taught the same things.

You might try asking yourself why it is that your leaders want you to think these things?

What is it they don't want you to know?

i thank GOD i now know what you meant.you are suprised that muslims are in uniformity in arguing against christians?well if i would have said this to you you might not have accepted it.this is to show you how truthful and straight forward islam is.the truth is constant as is also falsehood.this shows that we dont invent things or make up stories.we continue to support the truth and oppose the falsehood.imagine how stupid it will be if 10 muslims oppose different things and contradict themselves.christians do that against islam.some dont like islamic law while others dont mind.some says its the prophet.and others trivial issues like polygamy and divorce.just to have something to say.you dont know what to accept as right or wrong in uniformity.

concerning the prophet (pbuh) and the wars.i dont know anyone who will just fold hios arms watchin his enemies eliminate him.you know that the previous messengers failed in their missions.non ever was totally successful in his mission.even those of their followers later lost their faith.jesus (as) had to be saved by GOD.the prophet muhammad (pbuh) came to succeed much that the unbelievers may dislike it.and he never killed an innocent soul.in the quran it is forbidden to kill an innocent soul.dont worry lets hope we will be in the second coming of jesus (as) and the mahdi (as) ,then you will see them fighting against the unbelievers.

Edited by mehdi soldier

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No it shouldn't.

Muhammad's teachings support killing people. His reasons are irrelevant. Killing people is forbidden by the 6th commandment. There are no exceptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Jo,

Didn't we cover this in another thread. The translation of the 6th commandment as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is incorrect, it is "Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder". The Old Testement establishes the principle of capital punishment for certain crimes "An eye for an eye, A tooth for a tooth..."

Why not just put that one to bed and move on....???

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What does this have to do with the dead sea scrolls?

The "Scrolls" are a good indicater of how the Essenes lived but there is nothing new. They adopted Zoroastrian philosophy some almost word for word.

Zoroastrian is the fountain of semetic religions.

Peace

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Hi Jo,

Didn't we cover this in another thread. The translation of the 6th commandment as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is incorrect, it is "Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder". The Old Testement establishes the principle of capital punishment for certain crimes "An eye for an eye, A tooth for a tooth..."

Why not just put that one to bed and move on....???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No the 6th commandment says Don't Kill.

This was clarified by Jesus.

Jesus also made a very clear statement on the principal of an 'eye for an eye'.

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