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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Dhulfiqar

Afghanistan - This isn't a joke

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:cry:

Ughhh.... That damn idiot BUSH...!!! I don't understand how a piece of trash like him got into office (Sorry for my language!! )...

And now they are trying to start a war with Iraq... What the hell for? It's not going to do anything to Saddam, another stupid peice of trash...

All it is going to do is create more of a miserable life for all the poor innocent citizens of the country :(

God, I am sooo mad!!!!!!!!!

Edited By Zuljenah on 1029706505

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The Muslim Americans supported Bush. Mistake, I'm not sure because we did not have much a choice. We needed to show the American Politicians that we could vote in a bloc so next elections the politicians would appeal to us. And to a great degree we did that.

Anyhow, that's politics.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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i dun think muslims shud even vote for presidency or watever position ...cuz they r alll da sameee n its a mistake if u vote..nyhow if u think it aint a mistake n u vote that wont change nything they'll put up whoever they want...so i say itssss a bigggggggg BIG mistake jus to vote....

Ya Ali

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salamu aleikum, about the vote thing, i'll tell u, even if the Muslim americans didnt vote, it still wouldn't have made a difference, i mean, here's the thing, i know a person (very close family friend) who used to work in the U.S., and he worked with a lot of ppl from the Navy and the Army, and when it was time to vote, my dad asked them if they were going to vote and they told him that the American government puts one of the electorees to bcome president, and the opposition just to fool and trick ppl into making them think that the votes are real and that it is a democratic country, I am sure that if we were to ask every american that voted, that the % each party recieve as votes would b off.

on the second thing, bush attacked Afghanistan for one reason, OIL, kuwait's oil is running out, and the US have been workin on a plan to get oil from Afghanistan, but the Talibans have stood in their way, and by destroying them and helping the afghan people, they now have an excellent chance of getting "another Kuwait", where the ppl will let them do whatever they wanna do.

Basically, there are 2 Islamic countries that are standing against the US (I think) and one of them is Iraq, and by demolishing the iraqi government, they will b putting a leader that is american bread, and that will do whatever the US wants him to do, when they will have done that, they will place a MAJOR army base in iraq, and already having army bases all around khalij, and in afghanistan and in neighbouring countries, it iwll b very easy and fast for them to take over Iran, and later on, taking whatever they want from Arabs/Muslims!

Please correct me if i have said n e thing wrong, and this is only my personal opinion!!

Salam

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bush attacked Afghanistan for one reason, OIL, kuwait's oil is running out, and the US have been workin on a plan to get oil from Afghanistan, but the Talibans have stood in their way, and by destroying them and helping the afghan people, they now have an excellent chance of getting "another Kuwait", where the ppl will let them do whatever they wanna do.

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Good point, Way2go. Also, we have no interest in destroying other nations, just ones that are a threat to us and to the general public. Think, when was the last time we invaded an innocent country? Lets see, Afghanistan was harboring a terrorist responsible for 3000 deaths and wouldn't give him up. So, we ousted that government. We have said that if you don't oust your terrorists, you will be ousted. Sadam, as I have said many many times before, is a Hitler waiting to happen. Look at the demo's. Pre 1991, Iraq was a prospering country. Post 1991, shambles, and is so to this day. Pre 1914, Germany was a major world power. Post 1919, Germany was a disgrace to the world, however in 1933 a lunatic came to power, Hitler, and changed all that. With the diplomatic stance at appeasement from all the Western world, Hitler was able to amass a huge army and almost take over Europe. Sadam, if not stopped, may be on that road. Let me explain. He will never amount up to Hitler. Hitler did his stuff behind the scenes. Our world is different now. We have sattelites and what not that can tell if armies are mobilizing or not. However, secret bunkers and warehouses, underground or undercover, can build weapons of mass destruction or bio/chem weapons. He is willing to make these and may have the capabliities. A man as unstable as him, I would guess, would sell them to a group, such as Al Quaeda, and boom, there goes a Western city and the like. So, unlike 1930's Europe/America we must not take an appeasement stance. We must take him out.

The voice of reason,

~Michael

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If you read CIA reports you will see that the US has been trying hard to create a stable government in Afghanistan -- hence we had Taliban.

What was the reason? Not oil. But natural gas.

For sometime large american corporations have been trying to exploit the Caspian lake (notice I didn't say sea -- thats whole new topic). US tried through Iran but that was a lost cause after the revolution, so the next avenue was Afghanistan.

They plan was to create a natural gas pipe from Afghanistan through Pakistan and into the Indian Ocean. This is now taking place. The bids have been made already.

As someone has already posted, IRAN is now surrounded by US military.

I agree with Michael, Saddam needs to go. But we need a better replacement -- not someone worse.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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I wish I could argue with Dhulfiqar on this, but it's true.  In the Taliban, the U.S. saw a stabilizing force.  During the early days of this regime the U.S. thought that the Taliban could pave the way to building an oil/gas pipeline through Afghanistan from the Central Asian countries.  And also saw them as an opportunity to isolate Iran.  I believe after the Taliban captured either Mazar-i-Sharif or Kabul, the U.S. almost recognized the Taliban as a legitimate government (along with only Saudi Arabia, UAE and Pakistan as the ONLY countries to do so) and they supported Pakistan and Saudi Arabia's decision to recognize the Taliban.  Things started to sour with the Taliban after Osama Bin Laden ordered the bombings on the embassies in Africa.  The U.S. wanted the Taliban to hand over Osama Bin Laden, but the refused.  Anyway, after that is when the  :uhh:  hit the fan, so to speak.  Anyway, I do hope someone will capture him alive, and that he will bear the full brunt of justice.

God bless,

RJM

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I'll run a scenario by you, tell me what you think.  You're looking for a babysitter...you need someone to watch your kids while you work.  Now the babysitter is a necessity for two reasons: You cant get rid of your job, and you cant get rid of your kids.  Ok, so you find someone who can solve the problem, seems like a good person, seems good with kids, everything seems to go well.  You can now work and you can know your kids are safe, both necessities have been met.  Your first day from work you come home to find police lines around your house, you go in to find that your babysitter has killed both of your kids and is being taken away.  Now my question to you is: is this the parents fault?  Did the parents create the monster?  Or did they simply allow him access to their interests, either knowing that he was what he was and ignoring it, or truly believing he was a good man, only to be deceived.  Now it does not take much to see the allegory between this story and the Taliban, and just as the US did with the Taliban, the parents would do with the murderer.  The US needed something (either gas or oil) and we found a supplier, when that supplier backstabbed us, we destroyed them, we did not create that supplier, nor did we force them to backstab us.  WE ARE NOT TO FAULT, just as the parents are not to fault in the death of the children.  Thanks

Stephen  :wee:

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The government, I'm sure, supported the Taliban with good intentions, of course the bombings aren't our fault!  But it seems like they are more concerned with the short term picture rather than the long term.

Anyway, speaking of your analogy.  Because the parents are entrusting the lives of their children to a stranger, it wouldn't have hurt knowing what their babysitter is really like.  Personally, I wouldn't trust my kids with just about anyone and just assume that babysitter would be okay looking after my kids, just by meeting them for the first, second or even 3rd time.  There's no way to know that a stranger can be trusted with the lives of your children.

I'll tell you what, my mother loves her grandchildren and I'll ask her to watch my kids  :D .  IF that doesn't work, I'll just ask other people that I know and trust personally to babysit.  My children would be much more important to me than a job.  Just like the parents in your story, the U.S. (well, the intelligence services) didn't know ALL the facts about the Taliban and just pretty much assumed from what they saw that they were swell dudes that just happened to be a little high strung.  Heck even the Taliban didn't even really know at first what they were really all about, and they pretty much made laws on the fly, assuming it was pure Islamic law.  Nice try though  :) .

God bless,

RJM

Edited By RJMMak on 1029895080

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Wow, I do believe my anology was taken out of context, but I'll go a different route.  The US, needed resources, so we find someone that can supply those resources.  Now the fact that the bombings happened would not have changed had we bought the resources from the Taliban or not.  I fail to see why America needed to "research" more in depth.  The point that we knew who they were on a buisness level is completely irrelevent.  Thanks

Stephen  :wee:

p.s. if helps you feel better, we'll say the children were not murdered until...oh...six months after the babysitter was hired, within that six month time span he stayed regularly for dinner and was welcomed as a friend to the family.  Hopefully that makes the anology better?  I fail to see how...

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Did you know at one point the top officials of Al Queda (inluding "Prince Laden") was invited to Washington for dinner?

It wasn't until 94 that Washington's and Queda's relationship went south. And six month prior to sept 11, US gave Taliban a huge chunk of tax payer money to use to fight the Northern Alliance.

US Govt needs to learn much more about Islam. They should ask their Ally the Brits for some tips.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh

The Muslim Americans supported Bush. Mistake, I'm not sure because we did not have much a choice. We needed to show the American Politicians that we could vote in a bloc so next elections the politicians would appeal to us. And to a great degree we did that.

Anyhow, that's politics

Oooooooooh.....

Let me answer with a quote from ayatullah Khumayni (rahimahullah Taala):

"If this is politics so i was never invloved in it."

May Allah have mercy on the muslims in america and forgive them...Ameen.

:(

[i:post_uid0]Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah[/i:post_uid0] (3:28)

3Ale Allah yatawakkalul-mutawakkiloon!

Salam alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh

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No, the USA didn't put the Taliban in power.  In fact, I see why at first we supported the Taliban, Afghanistan was a MESS to put it lightly, I mean there was like a civil war with 9+ different factions fighting each other.  So yeah, I definitely can see why we supported the Taliban at first.  They WERE an improvement on what went on before, for a while at least.  The Afghans at first saw them as liberators and finally gave the country some peace and order.  But then they started acting like maniacs not long after they took power.  People were allowed minimum healthcare, women had to go to terrible hospitals, schools were closed, people were executed for minor offenses, absolutely no entertainment, etc.  Also, the reason why the USA supported the Taliban at first is they thought they would get rid of the opium trade.  At first they did destroy some opium fields but then the Taliban saw the benefits of selling opium.  Anyway, the USA supported the Taliban in an indirect way by supporting the Taliban through the Pakistani ISI and allowing the Saudis to spread Wahabbism there.  Interestingly, Israel also had a dialogue going with the Taliban.  Also the whole oil/gas issue going on there, and a chance to isolate Iran.  Meanwhile, the Taliban was treating Afghans like animals to put it mildly.  It must be noted, that all this went on during the Clinton administration.  Before he left office, the USA did change its stance on the Taliban, due to the fact that the Taliban hosted Osama Bin Laden and he ordered those bombings on the US embassies in Africa.  Hope this helped,

God bless,

RJM

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So, there is a parallel here to what might happen in Palastine? We want Arafat out of there, there is no mistaking that, however people say that America can't bully its way into the Palastinian government. So, what if we did our homework, like people are saying we should've done on the Taliban, and we chose a good leader, a Muslim and so on. Would that be such a bad thing? Keep in mind that Arafat's term ran out in May of 99 and has not held another election so, contrary to what many will have you believe, he is no longer the elected official of a state that doesn't even exist.

The voice of reason,

~Michael

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So, what if we did our homework, like people are saying we should've done on the Taliban, and we chose a good leader, a Muslim and so on.

Subhan Allah.....

Ya subhan Allah, ya Allah....

WE, WE, WE..........

Who is this "we"?????

Americans? Americans will choose our leaders, they decide who they want who is not sufficient for them???

What kinda rights have this WE?

This "we" is the root of all evil...And if one day the ikhwaan and the ukhwaat would realize we are ONE ummah (notice: WE), this other "we" would never be able to speak like this again...

WE, the Ummah should choose a leader

We the Ummah should manage our own affairs

WE the Ummah should throw away the taghoot leaders, like arafat and his fellows or saddam

WE the Ummah dont want anybody to decide what is good for us and what is not.

Imam Ali (alayhi as-salaam) sad:

"Today, it is deed and no account; tomorrow, it will be account and no deeds."

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Noora:

Sorry, I misspoke. What the American government wants to do is exactly what they did in Afghanistan. They want to support, strongly, a good candidate. However, if we support the wrong guy, then we get blamed. If we support a guy we like, we get blamed for dictating your politics. The fact of the matter is this, Palastine, within the next few years, is going to get a new leader. GOOD. That leader will HAVE to have the backing of the U.S. Let me tell you why. If the U.S. does not like the new leader, they have every right to not recognize him, therefore not recognize Palastine as a state. If this happens, no aid, or trade will be given to that nation, just as we don't trade with other nations. What will that do to Palastine? Well, the same thing that has happened to North Korea, Cuba and Iraq. So you have a choice. Choose a leader with integrity and good values. Or do not, and suffer the consequences of no help from the only surviving world power. So, my question is this, is it wrong if the U.S. studies hard, and finds a candidate that they would endorse? And, if that candidate gets elected, would that be a bad thing? Would this be a wrong thing???

The voice of reason,

~Michael

P.S. try telling Americans who lost family memebers in the attack on 9/11 that they are the evil ones.

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Wow -- it's getting hot in here :)

I will have to say RJM you know your stuff. You're not an American are you?  

As far as Human Rights are concerned, again, I have to agree with RJM, as Christians it is a duty regardless of race/religion to uphold those rights. I've worked very closely with the Catholic Worker House community and Voices in the Wilderness. And I agree with their stance.

Now back to Afghanistan --

Taliban were children when they came into power. Average age was under 21. Their knowledge of Islam was next to Zero and still is. What do expect from by products of Saudi Wahabism.

With much pride I can say when it comes to Knowledge, the Shi'a far surpass the sunni counterparts. That's why there is HUGE difference between Iran and Taliban Afghanistan or even Saudi Arabia. Iran did not translate their constitution from western countries like many Sunni countries have (ex Pakistan). They wrote their's from scratch. Getting off topic here --

US is responsible to a large degree for the actions of the Taliban. Since we are into analogies here's one:

My underage son gets caught in a robbery. Who responsible? Under domestic US law, I am.

US trained (raised) the Taliban through the CIA and the ISI. Then the US makes the irresponsible move of letting underage kids (taliban) run a country; when they knew they were not developed mentally to even eat dinner using a knife and a fork.

Peace,

Dhulfiqar

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I agree completely that there were Human's Right's violations going on in Afghanastan (spelling?) and I would never condone such activity, however, it is the policy of the state not to interfere with the customs of other cultures...sometimes.  This is something that really frusterates me.  We are not supposed to interfere with other cultures on the basis, "who are we to judge someone outside of their culture?"  But then we go in and go after Solovalan Melosivich (geez just can not spell this morning).  I'm not saying we should not have gone after the man, we should have done it sooner.  But that means we need to go after everyone who is commiting acts of genocide, murder etc. against their own defenseless people, or we go after none of them.  We can not play this game of political correctness, or worry about how the world would view this act...that compromises our principles.  We hold to this policy only when it is conveniant...at least Bush is principled...(I hope that comment did not make me too many enemies here).  Thanks

Stephen  :wee:

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It shouldn't be the US Goverment's responsibility to choose a leader for ME countries such as Palestine.  However, it should be our responsibility to help create a situation in which the people of Palestine can choose for themselves their leader.  Hopefully they will choose a responsible and honorable leader.  Not somebody who's sole purpose is power and war.

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Bush ... on the contrary I don't think he's bad. He is bad but I like Bush because he's a Christian and to a degree he follows his religion. Christian values aren't so different than Muslim values. Anyhow, he needs new speech writers

Just say no to Abortion!

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

Edited By Dhulfiqar on 1030065384

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RJMMAK:

You're Dutch? I go to a school where 50% of the school is Dutch, and most of those people are 100% Dutch. It's a Dutch Reformed School, called Calvin College...named after the theologian John Calvin. About 30% of our library is comprised of theological books in Dutch...which stinks for me seeing as I have no idea how that language works. I am not Dutch however...just a lowly Irish/Welsh American! thought you'd like to know!

~Michael

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