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Fresh Perspective

Why Are They Killing The Innocents?

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http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle....Q-ATTACK-DC.XML

What is the point of walking into a crowded market place and blowing up a lot of non-combatant Iraqis?

Rational Muslims I beg of you, please group together and discuss this. This is not a good way to garner sympathy for Islam. All these actions do is strengthen the resolve of the World wide community against you. The world sees the indiscriminate carnage and they say..."maybe the U.S. is doing us a favor. At least they are not blowing themselves up in our country". "Maybe we shouldn't let Turkey in the E.U. if they are that crazy". Maybe we should expell all Muslims from the Netherlands". etc...etc... Please, somebody speak out and deplore these actions.

Photo: U.S. Navy hospital corpsman gives food to an Iraqi child. The child was one of two children found malnourished and tied to a cinderblock during a house raid of suspected insurgents in Dhulab Iraq. The children were likely being held hostage for ransom.

post-9952-1118749856_thumb.jpg

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Another round of bloodshed..

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8914

I feel sick. There is a lot of evil going on in Iraq. However I dont see islam being responsible for these. No mention of religion in any of these news reports.

Sure the people committing these atrocities may call themselves muslims. They were probably born in muslims countries to muslim families and brought up in a muslim way. Muslims...

Look, evil isnt being caused by a single group of people. So called muslims - sunni and shia - and so called christians (us and co military). All parties are guilty of shedding innocent blood. The rest of the world looks on in shock and reels in disgust at whats going on.

I recall similar evil (smaller scale, just as horrific) going on in N Ireland. Catholics and Protestants butchering and mutilating eachother. Hitler did all sorts of nasty things and he was pretty definitely not a muslim.

The list could go on.....

These evil doers, they arent just muslims, or jews, or christians or anything... The only common group they all belong to is the Homo Sapien group. They are all humans.

Its time (its never not been time) for us to stop dividing ourselves into superficial groups and realise the true nature of who we are. We are all humans, some have different beliefs, but we all have the same fundamental weaknesses. By accusing the muslims of being evil, you ignore the evil in your own heart. This may make you feel better, but doesnt help advance the cause of humanity - the only grouping that really exists..

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Guest ya ameer

what i dont understand is, y doesnt ayyat sistani make a fatwa against all of this.

its haraam i tell u. if these ppl think what they r doing is for islam...then they must be following another prophet than me. peace and blessings be upon dear prophet and his holy family for putting up with the arabs of their time.

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what i dont understand is, y doesnt ayyat sistani make a fatwa against all of this.

its haraam i tell u. if these ppl think what they r doing is for islam...then they must be following another prophet than me. peace and blessings be upon dear prophet and his holy family for putting up with the arabs of their time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was actually wondering the same. Sistani absolutely can make a fatwa against this. The thing is that Sistani is more diplomatic. He will go any other means before calling to fight. He thinks that maybe adding more Sunnis to the govt seats will help, etc.. He is trying to be patient, but I think the patience is started to wear off..

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What is the point of walking into a crowded market place and blowing up a lot of non-combatant Iraqis?

----

Because they are cowards, they dont know jack sh"t....let alone about Islam!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

bc they are shia iraqis...and they are kaffirs. they come up with all the excuses in there own corrupted book.

may Allah grant those shia martyers a speedy entrance to heaven

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Rational Muslims I beg of you, please group together and discuss this. This is not a good way to garner sympathy for Islam

There are two kinds of Muslims: Rational and non-Rational. This back to the early days of Islam. I guess you are aware of the two schools in Islam: Shia and Sunni.

These two schools have a big difference when it comes to "judgment" or making discision. Sunni scholars consulte the traditions at first, and they consider the logic secondary. On the other hand, Shia schollars consulte the logic and rationality at first.

This is a big and old disputed issue between the two schools. Literally, they called it the issue of ranking the rationality (Akil) and tradition ( Nakil).

Sunni ranke th Tradition first, and Shia ranke the rationality first.

As such, those who commited these crime by nature, are Sunni, or let me say exterem Sunni. The first crime commited by Sunni 1400 yrs ago was to kill the grandson of the Prophet, Hussain, by the name of tradition because Hussain opposed the ruler of that time. These days, you can see Sunni still support that crime. Another example, most Sunni support some disguesting irrational things such as "it is ok to EAT FLYS" according to the tradition.

Now, having said this, unfortunately, many Shia scholars are not rational neither, even though they arrgure in favour of rationality. It is very often that they stuck with stupid tradition or irrational issue. For example, the most Iranian scholars consider that USA is the the BIG SATAN no matter what good things that USA had done. As such, you see some Shia schoolar just support any insurget in Iraq to disturb the democracy in Iraq, just because the democracy is initiated by USA. Another example, some Shia scholars okey to hit the head with a soward to commemorate the death of the grandson of the prophet, Hussain, who was killed by Sunni 1400 years ago.

I would say that the problem is that the Middle east and far east in general lack rationality in general, and it will take time till ppl will become educated and rational.

It take time, and I dont know how long.....

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It is extremely refreshing to be able to, aside from the ‘I blame it all on the US’ crowd, read the opinions of levelheaded individuals as yourself najaf_canada! Thank you for the breath of fresh air.

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Good work, Najaf Canada...that is exactly the kind of discussion I wanted to spark with this thread. It takes a lot of courage to stand up and be counted for a minority view.

We may not always agree on certain issues but at least I can respect that you think for yourself and not simply repeat the same bulk hate and blame. It must be rather lonely realizing that many will disown you for not marching in lockstep unison to the cadence of a bad idea. I am in the same boat, after 9/11 there were many in America that wanted to "go nuclear" on Mecca, it is so hard to reach them and help them focus their anger in the right places but people like you will certainly help. Stay strong brother.

post-9952-1118804826_thumb.jpg

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Curious Infidel why do u even replay??? u are sooo blind with hate its not even funny and the worse thing about u is that u keep on posting stupid [Edited Out] and can never never back it up and will useally just leave and go make another stupid post. Just leave

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hamid: your signeture says: Live Like Ali (as) Die Like Hussain (as)

Did Ali every kick some one out? Arnt you aware that Ali and Hussain were very nice even to those who are insulting them? You are insulting Ali and Hussain by having this bad behaviour by the name of Islam. Be sure, that Allah will hold you resposible for every word you say in your life ( Wa ma yantik min kalematen el wa ladiah Raqieb Atid= when you utter a word, there a tough observer to record)

Curious Infidel: I am appology for you, as a Muslim. Indeed, your comment was very true. Muslime, similar to Hamid or Ali Ahmad are very closed mind, and they have been brain washed. Be sure that if someone who is not nice, then he is not true Muslim (does mean that every one nice must be Muslim).

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Obviously, many of the posters here(ali ahmad, perhaps) need to keep in mind that that "mujihadeen" in Iraq are killing Shia Muslims by the hundreds, damaging Shia sites, etc. So before you're so quick and ready to defend them, remember the Islamic prohibition against aiding and supporting the enemies of Islam.

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hamid: your signeture says: Live Like Ali (as) Die Like Hussain (as)

Did Ali every kick some one out? Arnt you aware that Ali and Hussain were very nice even to those who are insulting them? You are insulting Ali and Hussain by having this bad behaviour by the name of Islam. Be sure, that Allah will hold you resposible for every word you say in your life ( Wa ma yantik min kalematen el wa ladiah Raqieb Atid= when you utter a word, there a tough observer to record)

Curious Infidel: I am appology for you, as a Muslim. Indeed, your comment was very true. Muslime, similar to Hamid or  Ali Ahmad are very closed mind, and they have been brain washed. Be sure that if someone who is not nice, then he is not true Muslim (does mean that every one nice must be Muslim).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with u on the first part, however all he does is insult islam so what is the point of him being here. about the second part u are soooooooooooo wrong its not even funny what are u talking about? brain washed!!(by whom) U appology to Curious Infidel!!! And worst u even agree with him, why don't u go and read all is post and then u will find out what he is really about. Find me one post he has made that was not a attack or insult to islam.

Also i have never said i agree with the "mujihadeen" that kill innocent people

najaf_canada do u also like the Conservatives and harpor

Edited by hamid

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I agree with u on the first part, however all he does is insult islam so what is the point of him being here. about the second part u are soooooooooooo wrong its not even funny what are u talking about? brain washed!!(by whom) U appology to Curious Infidel!!! And worst u even agree with him, why don't u go and read all is post and then u will find out what he is really about. Find me one post he has made that was not a attack or insult to islam.

Also i have never said i agree with the "mujihadeen" that kill innocent people

najaf_canada do u also like the Conservatives and harpor

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LoL

I suppose you are favor of the pro-abortion ( baby killing ) and same sex marriage ( faggot loving ) liberals and NDP. :lol:

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LoL

I suppose you are favor of the pro-abortion ( baby killing ) and same sex marriage ( faggot loving ) liberals and NDP. :lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

O man u got me :dry:

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many of the posters here(ali ahmad, perhaps) need to keep in mind that that "mujihadeen" in Iraq are killing Shia Muslims by the hundreds

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Mujahideen are not killing shias they are only killing Americans.

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The Mujahideen are not killing shias they are only killing Americans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

^^yeah ,plz tell me since when "Americains" were in shia mosques?!Come on open your eyes,our people SHIA MUSLIMS are dying everyday due to all these coward suicide bombing poeple!! Whars wrong with you,why you dont want to admit that they are killing handreds of shiaas...dont be brain washed with "They are killing Americains",open your eyes,watch the news...And dont say all whats in the news is not true,because people from our family went last year and went this year and same thing,the "MUJAHIDIN" are killing "US,SHIAA"....

Please be fair,and tell the truth.....No one can deney what we see with our own eyes...shiaa blood being shed every day by who--->the so called mujahidin...

Brother you'll be asked in the hereafter for every word you utter so get real and say the truth even if it is hard for you...I mean,how many pictures you should see of shiaas with their head severed and they blood all over Iraaq streets,to understand that those are not Americans,but the victims are Shiaaaaaaas??

You have a nice name,Ahmad so why dont you you be like Ahmad (pbuh) as in telling the truth!?...Stop denying...The other day there was an inteview with three Salafi scholars,even them they did not deny this fact but you ..anyway...I've said what I wanted to said,now wether you want to say the truth or not,you're the one who'll be judged for your words not me...

(salam)

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What is the point of walking into a crowded market place and blowing up a lot of non-combatant Iraqis?

What is the point of carpet bombing crowded cities blowing up a lot of non-combatant Iraqis, Whats the point of enforcing sanctions on the innocent people of Iraq so thousands of young children die out of malnutrition and lack of hospitals, What is the point of plundering the Iraqi peoples oil so they starve? Whats the point of bombing schools and hospitals?

Before you accuse others you should look at your own American government. The No.1 Terrorist of the modern world.

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What is the point of carpet bombing crowded cities blowing up a lot of non-combatant Iraqis, Whats the point of enforcing sanctions on the innocent people of Iraq so thousands of young children die out of malnutrition and lack of hospitals, What is the point of plundering the Iraqi peoples oil so they starve? Whats the point of bombing schools and hospitals?

Before you accuse others you should look at your own American government. The No.1 Terrorist of the modern world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Carpet bomb cities? I suppose you mean Fallujah...no carpet bombing occurred, at any time. The U.S. used gps guided 500 pound bombs( the most accurate precision bombing method known to man) dropped individually on 80% of airstrikes, the other 20% laser guided (still very accurate)

2. sanctions didn't starve Iraqi children...it was Saddam's diversion, with the help of the corrupt Oil for Food program run by the U.N., of the money earmarked for humanitarian relief to his own palace building effort.

3. Iraqi oil is being wasted by terrorists who constantly destroy oil pumping infrastructure, denying the precious crude which powers most of Iraq's electrical plants...that's why there is still widespread shortages of power.

3a. If the U.S. was "plundering" Iraqi crude oil...the price of gas would not average over $2.00 per gallon as it has for over 8 months.

Please consider these points and respond accordingly

Photo: Iraqi insurgents destroy a key oil pumping relay station, denying Iraqi

citizens electricity during the hottest time of the year.

post-9952-1119107448_thumb.jpg

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2. sanctions didn't starve Iraqi children...it was Saddam's diversion,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FP,

sanctions strenghtened saddam's hold over iraqis.

so the sanctions did starve the iraqi children.

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1. Carpet bomb cities? I suppose you mean Fallujah...no carpet bombing occurred, at any time. The U.S. used gps guided 500 pound bombs( the most accurate precision bombing method known to man) dropped individually on 80% of airstrikes, the other 20% laser guided (still very accurate)

Which of course would explain why civilian targets where hit as well.

oops

They say they have found evidence of "massive use of cluster bombs in densely populated areas," according to Human Rights Watch researcher Marc Galasco, contradicting coalition claims that such munitions were used only in deserted areas.

Maybe not carpet bombing; but they did use cluster bombs

And since you seem to enjoy posting pictures from the war here's a nice link for you.

war pics-not for the faint of heart.

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ali- there are many mujahadeen groups in your country that are very openly anti-shia am I right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nope. the largest pro Mujahideen group in Pakistan is the MMA. And they have been recently staging demostrations against the sectarian bombing incident.

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I'm reading "masterminds of terror" which is this guy from al jezeera who interviewed rhamzi binalshib and khalid shaik mohammed a little while before they got caught in the apartment there in karachi. they mentioned something about being involved in certain anti-shia factions, but it wasn't the main focus of the book.

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@ malcontent

1.The statement was made that America had carpet bombed Iraqi civilians...let's get that straight. As far as I'm concerned that is a very serious charge to just be causually throwing around. As an American I am concerned that Muslim perceptions toward us are often based on untruths and speculation. "Carpet bombing Iraqi civillians" implies America is careless and demonstrating reckless behavior toward other innocent human beings. The U.S. has not engaged in such acts...that has been verified as truthful.

2. I did not appreciate your attempt to divert the focus away from the "carpet bombing" claim but since you have opened the door...anti-personnel cluster bomb units detonate in relatively small explosions simulaneously. Each one roughly comperable to the blast from a hand grenade. They are very effective at destroying dug in troops over widespread areas without leveling buildings and other infrastructure . In An Najaf's vast graveyards Moqtada's Mehdi militia would have had a distinct advantage. No armor for the Americans...too many nooks and crannies...an ambushing insurgent's utopia. The use of the cluster bombs to root out and deny the insurgents that advantage was appropiate and necessary. It is unlikely that any civilians lived in those graveyards.

3. Before each military bombing campaign near populated areas there are many procedures that are taken to warn civilians of impending strikes ( even in the same Arabic dialect of the region, as to reduce confusion)

4. Perhaps the reason why so many civilians are being killed in the combat zones is because they are not actually non-combatants. Many are spectating and/or participating in the fighting, bringing in food, water and ammunition.

5. No thanks for your pics...mine are much more recent

Chart: DoD estimates during Operation "New Dawn" Fallujah

post-9952-1119140318_thumb.jpg

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nope. the largest pro Mujahideen group in Pakistan is the MMA. And they have been recently staging demostrations against the sectarian bombing incident.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

haha.

mullah sandwich and mullah diesel are not anti-shia ?

that's a new one. :D

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1. Carpet bomb cities? I suppose you mean Fallujah...no carpet bombing occurred, at any time. The U.S. used gps guided 500 pound bombs( the most accurate precision bombing method known to man) dropped individually on 80% of airstrikes, the other 20% laser guided (still very accurate)

Oh no, then can u kindly explain what the B52 bombers were doing going to Iraq, The B52 is not a smart bomber, its main purpose is to annhilate any ground targets by its tremendous payload. And this isnt necessarily about Iraq a life is a life wethere its a Japnese infant in Hiroshima or an infant in Baghdad.

2. sanctions didn't starve Iraqi children...it was Saddam's diversion, with the help of the corrupt Oil for Food program run by the U.N., of the money earmarked for humanitarian relief to his own palace building effort.

Who went out out to "save" Kuwait and force sanctions against Iraq, Whos air craft carriers were guarding the Persian Gulf so Iraq could starve.

3. Iraqi oil is being wasted by terrorists who constantly destroy oil pumping infrastructure, denying the precious crude which powers most of Iraq's electrical plants...that's why there is still widespread shortages of power.

3a. If the U.S. was "plundering" Iraqi crude oil...the price of gas would not average over $2.00 per gallon as it has for over 8 months.

What are the big American oil companies doing in Iraq, why has America opened the pipline to Israel?

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That is such an ignorant group of statements, I refuse to waste my time answering those.

I will ask you again....where is the evidence that the U.S. has engaged in carpet bombing Iraqi civilians? Either back that statement up, retract it, or we have nothing else to discuss.

For your information the U.S. Air Force likes to use B-52s to drop precision guided munitions because they can remain on station for hours, due to their massive fuel tanks. They make large circles in the sky awaiting orders when other aircraft have to refuel.

Photo: B-52 deploying JDAM, extremely accurate weapon.

post-9952-1119191597_thumb.jpg

Edited by Fresh Perspective

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I will ask you again....where is the evidence that the U.S. has engaged in carpet bombing Iraqi civilians? Either back that statement up, retract it, or we have nothing else to discuss.
The US armed forces bombed one end of the main highway from Kuwait city to Basra, sealing it off. They bombed the other end of the highway and sealed it off. They positioned mechanized artillery units on the hills overlooking it. And then, from the air and from the land they simply massacred every living thing on the road. Fighter bombers, helicopter gunships, and armored battalions poured merciless firepower on traffic jams backed up for as much as twenty miles. When the traffic became grid locked, the B-52s were sent in for carpet bombing."

Source: http://www.rense.com/general33/vs.htm

Remembering the fact that the U.S. bombing of Iraq concentrated on those targets most likely to destroy decent living conditions there than to make it militarily invalid. The Iraqi accusation of spying is more understandable from the point of view of a people trying to rebuild an infrastructure destroyed by U.S. carpet bombing with not much help from any of the other countries of the world intimidated by threats of embargo by the U.S. In fact the main target of the embargo and sanctions seems to be the Iraqi people. Perhaps the Iraqis suspect that a rebuilt water treatment plant, or a rebuilt power grid would become the next bombing targets. Sabotaging any attempt to enable the hospitals to regain some of their former function,.

Source: http://www.change-links.org/Iraq98.html

The B-52s began dropping streams of unguided bombs all over the country. They carry up to 51 500-pound and 30 1,000-pound bombs on each attack. The combined explosion is equivalent to a small nuclear weapon. From miles away it can seem like an earthquake has happened.
During the Vietnam War B-52s went on some 126,000 attacks, dropping two million tons of bombs. In a single engagement the B-52 bombs killed 30,000 people. The US used B-52s to carpet-bomb Iraq during the 1991 Gulf War, causing thousands of civilian deaths

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/1774/sw177402.htm

US BOMBS destroyed a Red Crescent dispensary hospital and a house, killing up to 15 people in Kandahar, southern Afghanistan, on Wednesday of last week. The Times admitted the "killing of the innocent" in Kandahar was "driving potential friends and allies of the attacking force into the enemy's arms, binding the civilian population and the militia in shared grief and anger."

It is a historical fact that USA has nuked, carpet bombed and massacred innocent civillians so why bother wasting my time to prove to you the obvious. If you dont believe in this then you do not know anything.

For your information the U.S. Air Force likes to use B-52s to drop precision guided munitions because they can remain on station for hours, due to their massive fuel tanks. They make large circles in the sky awaiting orders when other aircraft have to refuel.
]

Hmm and this is very BRAVE of them and you think the suicide bombers are cowards lol.

And offcourse you would rather forget the nuking of two densly populated Japanese cities, as you cannot say anything in regards to it.

Edited by Ābu Dhar

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abu- you ar entitled to your opinion but those aren't reliable sites. Rense is a conspiracy theory site. these aren't "alternative" news sources so much as hysterical nonesense. I rememebr Rense said that italian reporter lady was kidnapped by the CIA. then she was shot at by troopps under CIA orders.

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Nice try...but I said credible, independant sources. Human Rights Watch, UNHCR, Medicines Sans Frontieres, Reuters, International Red Cross, Amnesty International, Bloomberg Group, The Carter Center, etc...

You specifically said that "The U.S. carpet bombed Iraqi civilians"....that is simply not true! You wrote an outright lie! I called you on it and you were proven wrong. It is as simple as that, let it go...there is nothing to substantiate that remark.

Surely, you must realize if specific carpet bombing of Iraqi civilians had really occurred every news agency in the world would be covering that story. Trust me you would not have to go to some obscure, anti-American website to find that story. That would be front page news as the Abu Ghraib scandal was. As much as you like to think that the American military apparatus is "the great satan". It is composed of people just like you and I...it is not a vast conspiracal agency specifically designed to supress you.

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Guest ya ameer
What is the point of carpet bombing crowded cities blowing up a lot of non-combatant Iraqis, Whats the point of enforcing sanctions on the innocent people of Iraq so thousands of young children die out of malnutrition and lack of hospitals, What is the point of plundering the Iraqi peoples oil so they starve? Whats the point of bombing schools and hospitals?

Before you accuse others you should look at your own American government. The No.1 Terrorist of the modern world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what is it about saddam and zarqawi u love so much?

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abu-  you ar entitled to your opinion but those aren't reliable sites.  Rense is a conspiracy theory site.  these aren't "alternative" news sources so much as hysterical nonesense.  I rememebr Rense said that italian reporter lady was kidnapped by the CIA.  then she was shot at by troopps under CIA orders.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably not too far from the truth considering that the British journalist (Yvonne Ridely) detained by the Taliban during the carpet bombing of Afghanistan said that the CIA tried to get her killed.

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