To all Indo-Pak Syeds

[Arman]

well i guess u should know syeds are very strict to marry syeds only so you shouldnt doubt such a thing

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is wrong, a syed can marry any Muslim. It is a false belief that a syed can only marry a syed.

Anyhow, It still does not explain why there seem to be more pakistani/indians syeds than arab or iranian.

[Matami-Shah]

Which is wrong, a syed can marry any Muslim. It is a false belief that a syed can only marry a syed.

Anyhow, It still does not explain why there seem to be more pakistani/indians syeds than arab or iranian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

arab/iranian families arent so strict...they get their daughters married off 2 any1

[Peer]

If you used the grey matter between your ears, it might help you to understand why there are Syeds in India and Pakistan. A bit of history wouldn't go amiss either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:lol:

[Arman]

arab/iranian families arent so strict...they get their daughters married off 2 any1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can one only be considered syed if both the parents are so too?

[Matami-Shah]

Can one only be considered syed if both the parents are so too?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if the father is syed..

[Arman]

if the father is syed..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how exactly does that affect the growth in any way? Lets do a little test:

Condition one:

Syed Husband

Non-syed Wife

Result: Children are syed

Condition two:

Syed Husband

Syed Wife

Result: Children are syed

Condition three:

Non-syed Husband

Syed mother

Result: Children are not syed

From the above we can conclude that it does not matter who the syed woman marries because their children's being syed depends on the father anyway. So the woman can be s[Edited Out]ped. But no matter who the syed husband marries, their children will be syed.

So how does it make sense to say there are more Pakistani & Indian syeds than the rest because they are more strict? The result will be the same no matter who they marry.

[Matami-Shah]

So how exactly does that affect the growth in any way? Lets do a little test:

Condition one:

Syed Husband

Non-syed Wife

Result: Children are syed

Condition two:

Syed Husband

Syed Wife

Result: Children are syed

Condition three:

Non-syed Husband

Syed mother

Result: Children are not syed

From the above we can conclude that it does not matter who the syed woman marries because their children's being syed depends on the father anyway. So the woman can be s[Edited Out]ped. But no matter who the syed husband marries, their children will be syed.

So how does it make sense to say there are more Pakistani & Indian syeds than the rest because they are more strict? The result will be the same no matter who they marry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

because u see ur condition 3...it doesnt happen as much in pak/india

how will the results be the same? i dont c wer u comin from...i mean if their syed daughters marry non syed men that means the kids arent gona b syed.

[Arman]

because u see ur condition 3...it doesnt happen as much in pak/india

how will the results be the same? i dont c wer u comin from...i mean if their syed daughters marry non syed men that means the kids arent gona b syed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But bro, you just said it depends on the father. Not the mother if the children are syed or not. In that case, option 3 would not matter at all.

[Matami-Shah]

But bro, you just said it depends on the father. Not the mother if the children are syed or not. In that case, option 3 would not matter at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i still dont understand u. yes it matters on the father...but if the women arent marrying syed men then the kids wont be syed and if a lot arabs are doing this then u see how they lack syeds?

[Arman]

i still dont understand u. yes it matters on the father...but if the women arent marrying syed men then the kids wont be syed and if a lot arabs are doing this then u see how they lack syeds?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is a simple mathematical matter bro. :)

Simple:

If it depends on the father if the child will be syed or not, then who cares what the woman does? Because either way, the children of the man will be seyed, but the children of the woman will not.

Do you understand?

[Matami-Shah]

It is a simple mathematical matter bro. :)

Simple:

If it depends on the father if the child will be syed or not, then who cares what the woman does? Because either way, the children of the man will be seyed, but the children of the woman will not.

Do you understand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

naa

i think this is jus gona go in circles.

[Sadaat]

Seems as though you people have a hard time with logic.

It doesn't matter if a Syeda (Syed woman) marries a Syed or a non-Syed - it has no influence on the number of Syeds in the world.

Syed man can marry anyone and the children will be Syed - this does have an influence of the Syed population.

Keep reading the above statements until you understand what I mean

--

People do have a problem with a Syeda marrying a non-Syed because they believe it is haraam - the topic has been discussed several times and using the Search feature would be more beneficial than discussing it here.

Edited June 7, 2005 by Sadaat

[Sadaat]

With so many Syeds on this forum, I am surprised at the little response.

[Excalibur]

It's an old thread. I am rejuvenating it, because I was doing a search on "peharsar" and this thread popped up.

Many of the Ja'fari syyeds (coming orignally from india or pakistani muhajirs) come from a village called Peharsar. This town was settled/conquered/liberated by our ancestor known affectionately as "dada-ji jalaal", or more properly Jalaluddin. As far as I know, this was in the time of Sultan Altumish, but if that's wrong anyone may correct me here.

It's true that almost all Jafaris from present-day India came from the state of Bharatpur in Eastern Rajasthan (places such as Peharsar, Bayana). A booklet was once published by Peharsiris in Karachi, describing the history of that area. It also mentioned the ancestors of Peharsiri Jafris. I doubt if his name was Jalaluddin. But I do know the name of his brother, Abdullah, who because of his religious knowledge, was called Abdullah Qalander.

I'm not sure when Jalaluddin (no idea if he is also "shah jalal") settled there, but I'm guessing he probably came with the conquering army of sultan mahmud. Any other Jafris care to elabrorate here?

You are right here. Those two brothers, Abdullah and ... other (Jalal?) did come in Mahmud Ghaznavi's army. I read their history it in the book I mentioned above. Here is what I recount:

The time is around 1000 AD. The place is somewhere in East Rajesthan. There is a Hindu rajah (loosely, rajah=king), who, like all other rajahs, is fond of sex, and can order any girl to his palace.

The Muslim immigration to India has already begun. We have this Iranian man, named Hasan, who supplies oil to the rajah. He is referred to in that book as 'Hasan raughan-gar' or 'Hasan tayli'. Once oil was required in rajah's palace, so one of his men came to Hasan's home to get oil. Hasan was not home. So Hasan's daughter gave him oil. Even though she did not come in front of rajah's man, but this man did see her reflection on pot or something, while she was pouring oil. He was amazed by her beauty. He went back and told rajah of her. Rajah asked Hasan to bring his daughter to his court. Hasan refused. Of course, Hasan knew why rajah wanted him to bring his daughter. When rajah saw that Hasan won't budge then one day he ordered his men to forcefully barge in Hasan's house and bring the girl to him.

Hasan was devastated at his outrage. He demanded rajah to let his daughter go, or otherwise he threatened to ask Mahmud to invade rajah. At that time Mahmud's attacks on India had already started. Rajah thought of Hasan's threat as mere bluff.

Hasan left the place, and went straight to Mecca for Hajj. After performing Hajj he went to Ghazni. He saw Mahmud but couldn't get close to him because of the crowd around him. I don't know how many days did he try. The story says that Mahmud had a dream in which someone told him that there is a man looking for his help. I don't know how true is this story about dream, but in anycase, Hasan finally succeeded in getting Mahmud's attention. He told all his story to Mahmud, and asked his help.

Now our ancestors Abdullah Qalander Jafri and his brother (Jalal?) used to be in Mahmud's court. They were well-reputed religious personalities originally from Shiraz, but had moved to Ghazni because Mahmud Ghaznavi liked to invite scholars from everywhere.

After hearing Hasan's tale, Mahmud sent an army to teach that SoB rajah a lesson. The army went under the command of AbuBakr Qandahari (ironic, hehe), and the two brothers, our heroes in this story, were with him. When rajah heard of Mahmud's army coming to invade his place, he realized it must have been because of Hasan.

Anyway. They fought, and we won ... after a hard battle. Then they moved to conquer other places in that area. One of those places was Pehersar. They named it Peharsar because they conquered this place only in a couple of hours ("sar"=conquered).

The land of Peharsar was given to the two Jafri brothers in recognition of their services in this expedition. The brothers then invited their relatives from Shiraz to come and live in this place.

It is said that about 200-300 families moved from Shiraz to Pehersar.

Unfortunately, it is not known whethere Hasan's daughter was freed or not.

In 1947, everyone in Peharsar moved to Pakistan, as they were under constant threat from Hindu mobs. Peharsar was being threatened by the people with whom they lived for about a thousand year. Peharsar was being threatened by the rajah of Bharatpur, rajah of the same state which the saadaat of Peharsar helped establish in the first place, and which they always supported. Today, there are hardly any traces of those people remain now.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Excalibur

[Excalibur]

I found this little about Peharsar on the net:

http://www.travels.ndtv.com/xtopspot.asp?topspot=Peharsar

Welcome to Chandra Mahal Haveli. Chandra Mahal Haveli is a 19th century heritage property, in a little village called Peharsar, about 150 kilometres from Jaipur.

‘Pehar’sar

There is an interesting story about how the village got its name. Two generals of Sultan Mahmud (The Jafri brothers in the story I just told) conquered the village in the space of three hours or what is a ‘pehar’ and hence the name Peharsar. The Chandra Mahal Haveli was originally built in the 1860s by the Shia nobility, which came to live here (that's us, ahem). Peharsar eventually became part of Bharatpur. It is said that for generations, the elite of Peharsar held prominent positions in the society and administration of the area from being Vazirs to the Maharaja, to holding high offices under the British.

[Guest DjibrilCisse]

Why did the family have to arrive from Iran? There are Syeds in other countries too you know. Mainly the Middle East and North Africa (arab countries).

[Isa Adam Naziri]

Mainly the Middle East and North Africa (arab countries).

Algerians aren't sayyids. Sorry.

[Excalibur]

Why did the family have to arrive from Iran?

I don't know. It was not mentioned in that book. I can only guess. May be economic problems?! Or may be the prospect of owning a land?! Who knows.

You know what, this thought came to my mind too while I was writing this story. Why did all those hundreds of families move to an unknown place? They were not 2 or 4 people, there were many families, and people in such a big number did not use to move and leave their ancestral homes unless it becomes necessary.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Excalibur

[marzooq]

(bismillah) (salam)

(bismillah) (salam)

Syed Sharfuddin Shah wilayat. Arrived in AMROHA, UP (sadaat-e-Amroha) from Iraq- the iraqi city was called WASIT. We are NAQVI. Im from Amroha.

Ali

This is very true. Hazrat Syed Sharfuddin came from Iran. Hazrat Syed Sharfuddin titled Shahwilayat, Al-Naqvi,Al-Amrohvi. Originally he was in Wasit, a city in Iraq. Therefore, one of his title is Al-Wasty.

More information on Amroha can be found on Wikipedia and Pakistan Amroha.

Yet another Naqvi Amrohvi..

Hassan s/o Qaem Amrohvi.

Edited March 14, 2006 by marzooq

[majafri]

I'm pretty sure that one of first ancestors' name was Jalaluddin - or that at least "jalal" was part of his name. You see, we still do a niyaz for Dada Jalal (marhoom) on special ocassions, and I afaik we (peharsari jafris descended from jalaluddin) have a family tree going up to him!

:)

I'm also quite impressed with all that other info you've found. That stuff's really interesting to read! :)

I'd heard paharsar was named due to how it was conquered but I've never read abt it in as much detail as now

I doubt if his name was Jalaluddin.

Edited March 13, 2006 by majafri

[Khuram Bukhari]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Syed Bukhari

can be traced back to Syed Jalauldin Hussain Bukhari UCH Sharif Pakistan

Family Tree is as :

1. Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh)

2. Syedna Ali -- Sayyedah Fatimah (as)

3. Imam Husayn (as)

4. Imam Ali Zaynal Abideen (as)

5. Imam Muhammad Baqar (as)

6. Imam Jafar Sadiq (as)

7. Imam Musa Kazim (as)

8. Imam Ali Rida (as)

9. Imam Muhammad Taqi Jawwad (as)

10. Imam Ali Naqi Madi (as)

11. Syed Jafar Saani

12. Syed Allauddin Ali

13. Syed Abdullah

14. Syed Ahmad Maqbool

15. Syed Ahmad Bukhari

16. Syed Muhammad Safiullah

17. Syed Jaffar Abu-Abdullah

18. Syed Ali Mir Khurd

19. Syed Jalaluddin Husayn Bukhari (13th Century)

We are living around 70km of Uch Sharif, in Multan pakistan

[al-syedia]

mashallah

shah i wilayat was from wasit??

my ancestors were from wasit as well

as one of my uncle who is a zaidi calls himself zaidi al wasti

[haider73]

it's actually quite interesting that u mention the Gardezi family. In fact a number of other saddat families have also entered Pak/India via that route, and have been naqvi as opposed to Zaidi.

If u ever analysis the movement of the Naqvi family u come to understand that there are two branches, the first from Bukhara who are generally the descendents of Syed Jalal-al-din 'sorkh' Bukhari and the naqvi family of Ghardez origin who are from the line of Syed Mustapha Ghardezi (mustaphabad in India, UP is orginally named after him)

The Ridhavi line, or rizvi as they are known in Pak/India seem to have a number of links into the subcontinent. The earliest ive come across is in 1555 during the time of the then king of the mughals who ran to iran and gained the help of the 3rd Safavid King and returned to India to defeat Sher Shah Suri. The commander of the army was a general by the name of Syed Ghozal and his son Syed Sozal who later settled in Jaunpur UP if i have that name spelt correctly. They were Shirazi i think originally and Jaunpur became known as shiraz-e-Hind for a while due to the then natural beauty.

Other Rizavi family members came over to India as missionaries, especially via the Afghanistan route. We have a huge portion of Rizavi Saddat having come over from Sabzwar.

Anyhow that's a little bit of info for your research

duas

SEYED

(salam)

Having looked at my family tree (Naqvi/Bukhari) I've noticed Syed Jalal-ud-din Surkh Bukhari (Clad in Red) (1197-1291) from Uch Sharif, amazing cant believe it!!!

Anyone else related to him??

Wasalaam

Haider

[razimuhammad]

Dear all,

AOA

I want to have shajras of Rizvi and Taqvi Syeds. I would be grateful if someone can mail these to me.

Syed Razi Muhammad

razimuhammad@yahoo.com

[Akbar673]

Salaam alaikum,

Syeds were called from Iran to be generals in India. Their importance was recognised by their family and the ones in those days are unlike now where you have so-called Syeds doing all kinds of haraam acts.

If you read about the history of people like Syed SharfUddin of Amroha, you will know there is high spirituality factor of him.

When they came from Iran they were given lands as rewards and that's why I know some that own several villages (or atleast did until the modern generation sold the land off for some quick cash) :(

The same would apply to us. We are Musavi Syeds. Our family is situated now in Hyderabad (I'm in the US) but I don't know where our ancestor originally settled as far as a village goes. Have to ask my grandmother. Apparently our family tree is still there in Hyderabad which traces us back to the son of Imam Musa (as).

[Akbar673]

Nahh, I do not think so. :)

Can anyone here say they have actually never wondered why so many Indians and Pakistani's call themselves syed, and whether or not it can be true that so many of them claim it?

In my short lifetime I have come across more Paki/Indian people that say they are syed than the Muslims from all other countries combined. Even on this website the most who claim it are the Pakistani's and Indians. I am not saying that any of them are not, what I am asking is if it makes sense, and if others have wondered about this too.

To me it seems a whole culture around being syed has developed in those two countries. Not only that, but I notice some radical opinions they have of themselves.

My father was making an interesting point just the other day similar to what you are saying here. He said that the Imams (as) had only so many children. Why is there such an explosion of Syeds in the India/Pakistan area when places such as Iran or Iraq only have so many Syeds and that is really where you should be finding the heaviest concentration?

Obviously that means that you have many who claim that they are Syed but are not. Might not be their fault. Someone up the family tree may have decided that they want to call themselves Syed when they are not and that's just carried down over the generations. People speak of how Syeds all have family trees but I'm sure there are Syeds out there that do not have a family tree and even if they do have one its probably in oral format and not on paper.

[Kirmani]

From my Father's side all I know is that I am a Hasani Syed, and that my father's ancestors came from KERMAN, Iran

From my mother's side, I am a Husseini Syed, and my tree goes up to Imam Mohammad Taqi (as) , and that my mother's ancestors came from Gilan, Iran

[Abuzar]

The question is... when your ancestor arrived from Iran to India:

What was their name?

What Imam (as) did they descend from?

Which town/village did they arrive to?

(salam)

Mir Ali Aashiqaan

Abidi Syed

ruler of Semnan (Iran)

migrated to Ayoddhya, UP

c. 1350 A.D.

[GHULAAM E ABBAS]

Salaam alaikum,

Thanks for all information given so far.

Does anyone have informations on the holy families Khandaan-e-Ijtehad and Baqir-ul-Uloom families and their routes taken.

I believe Khandaan-e-Ijtehad arrived to Bareilly in a place called Jaees.

Baqir-ul-Uloom family to Kashmir.

I heard Rizvis also arrived to Zaidpur.

Zaidis arrived to Muzaffar Nagar and Muthikpur, Meerut and Bijnor (Uttar Pradesh). I believe (especcially in the case of Muzaffar Nagar) that the ancestor was Syed Abul Farah Zaidi al-Wasti.

Taqvi Syeds arrived to Amroha and Badshah.

Naqvi Syeds arrived to Amroha through general Syed Sharfuddin aka. "Dada" Shah Wilayat who is the ancestor of every Naqvi in Amroha (several hundreds of Naqvis now spanning worldwide).

Also Naqvis in Bareilly.

Anybody care to add to this?

WS.

Salamz Brother-

I was searching for something online and came across your JE here on ShiaChat. Mashallah it is a nice effort, however I would like to make a correction here and if someone already did that please accept my appologyze.

Zaidi did not arrive to Muzaffar Nagar and Muthikpur, Meerut and Bijnor directly. The Jad e Amjad [Great Great Grandfather] Syed Abul Fara Wasti first settle in Multan area and were well settle there for a while until Mahmood of Ghazni attacked Multan in 1005, the rulers are sometime known as Ismaili Fatimid Kingdom [which is not correct indeed and it was a Shia family who was settle and ruling Multan for reference the books written by Justice Aamir Ali ] and ruler whom he defeted was Syed Abul-Futtah Wasti [son of Syed Abul Fara Wasti], Mahmood thus destroyed the Saddat family there and they then decided to spread in different parts of Indian sub continent in safe places.

Their first stop was in State of Patiala in cities of Chhaat and Banoor [close to a well know city knows as Samana] and from there they migrate to all over indian, a big part moved to central India to cities like Muzaffar Nagar and from there to different areas, where as part of family decided to settle in Northern India in District Ambala [the part I belong to]. The family from Ambala Dristrict moved to Pakistan in full and settle in Gujranwala District, Karachi, Multan and Khanewal regions where some families did migrate from Central India as well and mostly settle in Karachi.

Ya Ali Madad

[unoeuf]

Salam,

My grandfather was Munir Hussain Zaidi (he was landlord like many sayeds and had 29 children with3-4 wives) from Muzaffar Nagar. my Father Iqrar Hussain Zaidi migrated with his mother and sibling to Lahore in 1947. The whole Zaidi clan ( all of my fathers siblings and their children) now reside in Toronto, Canada

I would appreciate if anyone has acess to or knew of a published Shajra of the Zaidi's in India. Please email me the information at Wzaidi1@gmail.com. I would like to publish the Shajra as a living document that can be traced and extended by all our future generations. Any advice will appreciated.

Khuda hafiz

Salamz Brother-

I was searching for something online and came across your JE here on ShiaChat. Mashallah it is a nice effort, however I would like to make a correction here and if someone already did that please accept my appologyze.

Zaidi did not arrive to Muzaffar Nagar and Muthikpur, Meerut and Bijnor directly. The Jad e Amjad [Great Great Grandfather] Syed Abul Fara Wasti first settle in Multan area and were well settle there for a while until Mahmood of Ghazni attacked Multan in 1005, the rulers are sometime known as Ismaili Fatimid Kingdom [which is not correct indeed and it was a Shia family who was settle and ruling Multan for reference the books written by Justice Aamir Ali ] and ruler whom he defeted was Syed Abul-Futtah Wasti [son of Syed Abul Fara Wasti], Mahmood thus destroyed the Saddat family there and they then decided to spread in different parts of Indian sub continent in safe places.

Their first stop was in State of Patiala in cities of Chhaat and Banoor [close to a well know city knows as Samana] and from there they migrate to all over indian, a big part moved to central India to cities like Muzaffar Nagar and from there to different areas, where as part of family decided to settle in Northern India in District Ambala [the part I belong to]. The family from Ambala Dristrict moved to Pakistan in full and settle in Gujranwala District, Karachi, Multan and Khanewal regions where some families did migrate from Central India as well and mostly settle in Karachi.

Ya Ali Madad

Dear Brother,

Salam,

My grandfather was Munir Hussain Zaidi (he was landlord like many sayeds and had 29 children with3-4 wives) from Muzaffar Nagar. my Father Iqrar Hussain Zaidi migrated with his mother and sibling to Lahore in 1947. The whole Zaidi clan ( all of my fathers siblings and their children) now reside in Toronto, Canada

I would appreciate if anyone has acess to or knew of a published Shajra of the Zaidi's in India. Please email me the information at Wzaidi1@gmail.com. I would like to publish the Shajra as a living document that can be traced and extended by all our future generations. Any advice will appreciated.

Khuda hafiz

Salam alaikum,

This is my return to Shiachat after some absence.

To all SYEDs of India/Pakistan...

The question is... when your ancestor arrived from Iran to India:

What was their name?

What Imam (as) did they descend from?

Which town/village did they arrive to?

An example:

Syed Abul Farah Wasti

Zaidi Syed

Sadat-e-Bahra, Muzaffar Nagar, UP.

If you know any other information like in which year they arrived and how many generations down from certain Imam (as) they are then that is interesting too.

Dont give any answer like Karachi, Lahore etc. because they are not Syed villages - Syeds only moved there after some period of time - they never arrived and settled there first.

No offence to non-Syeds. This is part of some interesting research I am doing.

Please no one deviate from the question in hand.

Just give the answer and thats it. - If you are family of another person of this forum then send them PM - please dont ruin this thread.

Thanks.

Khuda Hafiz.

[The Green Knight]

Sadaat:

Care to enlighten us all with the results or perhaps just the objectives of this "study" of yours?

You're asking people for their quite personal information over the internet which can greatly help identify them IRL.

[Ali75]

Correction, there are many more Naqivis's as you call them, they may not necessarily be also only in the sub-continent, my mom's side is from a family which was settled in Khorasan for a looong time before it came to Panipat, and it has no connection with the Naqivis as you know them.

There was a very famous Pir called Abdullah Ansari of Herat, form the early,11th century, he had a daughter who was married to a grandson of Imam Naqi (as) called Khwaja Ali and settled in Khorasan, and that line is called the Khwajagan-of the Syed variety, a branch of this migrated to Panipat on the mongolian destruction-13 the centruy, but some did not, and kept links with the clan and did so migrate even as late as the 19th centruy, so 800 years of family history outside the known Naqivis (this is a very small clan not like millions), well documented, get you the Shajara sometime, Mom's got it, WaSalam!

Dear Brother, Would it possible for you to send me the Shajra document of Khwajagan Naqvi from Panipat. I need this document urgently. May Allah shower all blessing on you, ilitimas-e-dua, waiting for your reply

[Hassan Ali]

Salams n ya Ali madad to all

my family mashAllah are Naqvi al-Bukhari

we come from the 10th imam Naqi as.

we settled in bukara and then we arrived in pakistan specifically to UCH Sharif , near multan dint remember when but our 1st forefather to arrive there from Bukhara, now uzbekistan, was Syed Jalaluddin Surkh Posh Bukhari, hope this helps

Allah Khafiz

[Bonafide Hustler]

Syed [Edited Out] is BS, done us way more harm than good, someone needs to release a fatwa abolishing this bs.

[Marbles]

^

Please explain your statement. I'm curious. :Hijabi: