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In the Name of God بسم الله

Israel-Palestine conflict

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On 12/28/2023 at 3:09 PM, HusseinAbbas said:

 

What I am seeing is a lot of triggered binary thinking. People are reacting to his points by making assumptions about his motivations.

I believe I understand what is going on, but I am at a loss as to how to express it. Nothing new for me unfortunately as I saw a lot of this in Syria.

Anyway, I am going back to lurking.

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5 minutes ago, Andaros said:

What I am seeing is a lot of triggered binary thinking. People are reacting to his points by making assumptions about his motivations.

I believe I understand what is going on, but I am at a loss as to how to express it. Nothing new for me unfortunately as I saw a lot of this in Syria.

Anyway, I am going back to lurking.

Well it's normal to assume his motivations, everyone has motivations here, if he conducts himself in a certain manner then he should expect people to assume his motivations, hes not being helpful with his sarcastic remarks, he could tell us his motivations so we can work it out together instead of having this back and fourth. 

 

I'm genuinely curious, is he a genuine muslim, or some zionist/fed who managed to play the muslim character very well in a shia forum? I wont judge him, every human makes mistakes. 

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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8 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

This is such a nonsensical head up the tailpipe type of argument. So Palestinians have no responsibility or accountability for anything they do? What kind of addled thinking is this? 

Frankly I don't think he actually read the whole essay which Is an excellent systematic review on Gaza hx since early 2000 to present. 

The author is of Jewish background and more labour zionist leaning.

He gives historical synopsis,  and has  even pointed out by the Russian UN Ambassador and the Special Rappouteur on Palestine  an illeagal occupying force is expected to have resistance and even  fully allowed armed resistance, the illegal occupation comes under war crimes,  blockades of food, water,  electricity,  internet and maritime access are all War crimes.

He also destroys the fake Zionist trope about the Palestinians not ever accepting and negotiating in good faith. The Palestinians accept the loss from 1948 of 45 % of their own lands to 1967 22 % and now 2023 less than  12 % because of illegal settlements.

 

He actually points out how Israel  never went willingly to meetings,  avoided good faith negotiating,  always has to be dragged to table to talk, alwys vetoed right of return of refugees and  and was alwys a bad faith partner. 

The author also cited the Richard Goldstone Report on Gaza, Goldstone was a judge, expert in International Law and A Zionist. The Israelis first stone walled the investigation,  trashed Goldstone and his report and destroyed his reputation.

The author provides a balanced view of the atrocities and even notes Hamas war crimes,  but I think that was either  unread or went over our brothers head.

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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1 hour ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Frankly I don't think he actually read the whole essay which Is an excellent systematic review on Gaza hx since early 2000 to present. 

The author is of Jewish background and more labour zionist leaning.

He gives historical synopsis,  and has  even pointed out by the Russian UN Ambassador and the Special Rappouteur on Palestine  an illeagal occupying force is expected to have resistance and even  fully allowed armed resistance, the illegal occupation comes under war crimes,  blockades of food, water,  electricity,  internet and maritime access are all War crimes.

He also destroys the fake Zionist trope about the Palestinians not ever accepting and negotiating in good faith. The Palestinians accept the loss from 1948 of 45 % of their own lands to 1967 22 % and now 2023 less than  12 % because of illegal settlements.

 

He actually points out how Israel  never went willingly to meetings,  avoided good faith negotiating,  always has to be dragged to table to talk, alwys vetoed right of return of refugees and  and was alwys a bad faith partner. 

The author also cited the Richard Goldstone Report on Gaza, Goldstone was a judge, expert in International Law and A Zionist. The Israelis first stone walled the investigation,  trashed Goldstone and his report and destroyed his reputation.

The author provides a balanced view of the atrocities and even notes Hamas war crimes,  but I think that was either  unread or went over our brothers head.

If israelis want to have good faith discussions they can start by recognising the nakba and not engage in genocide denial. 

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7 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Frankly I don't think he actually read the whole essay which Is an excellent systematic review on Gaza hx since early 2000 to present. 

No. I didn’t read the article. The comment is not about the article. It’s in response to a specific quote from the article in Haji’s thread. Go take a look for yourself. Haji decided to lie by omission about the context. 

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36 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Check this out please. This illustrates the hadith of Imam Sadiq((عليه السلام)) that you should be careful where you get your knowledge from. 

 

Is that video safe tho? I hate Ali dawah and his best friend Muhammad niqab

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10 minutes ago, Diaz said:

Is that video safe tho? I hate Ali dawah and his best friend Muhammad niqab

Yep, I'm seeing it at this moment, basically hamza yusuf told palestinians to suffer in silence.

 

Imagine if he told a woman being abused to suffer in silence.

 

Either way some things in this video are ali dawah's narrative and nonsense, but most of it seems alright.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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On 12/28/2023 at 4:27 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Another evidence, at least against the mass rapes is the following, 

If there were mass rapes, it's been more than 2 months, almost 3 months since Oct. 7. Those 'massive amounts' of Israeli women who were supposedly raped, at least some of them would now be pregnant as a result of this, as has happened in every single war where rape was used as a weapon of war. Recent cases of this were Rwanda, Congo, Kosovo, and Northern Iraq when ISIS was in power. These cases have been thoroughly studied. So my question is, where are the DNA tests that show the father was a Palestinian fighter ? Even if they had abortions they could do fetal dna and this would show up as evidence. 

If there is such evidence, I would like to see it. I am not just saying that, I really would because if that were the case I would be the first one loudly and repeatedly condemning Hamas for this. My guess is that the evidence isn't there, otherwise it would be now be front page news in every Western Newspaper and would be a continuously running headline on cable tv. So this is one more Zionist claim that has most likely been proven false by another type of evidence. 

Do corpses get pregnant where you come from? 

Very few non-hostages survived the encounter with Hamas. The women were generally slaughtered once the animals were finished violating them. 

Reading material for those who have the courage to look reality in the eye. 

https://archive.ph/I7saY


 

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2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Very few non-hostages survived the encounter with Hamas. The women were generally slaughtered once the animals were finished violating them. 

Salam if it has been true evidence so then zionist propaganda machine  would use it in first week after OCT 7 while it has been busy about spreading false propaganda against Palestinian fighters when Zionist propaganda machine  still has had some credibility in westerner countries but in opposition to that this so called sensitive information has been censored by zionist propaganda machine when it has spread false news of beheading children & burning them without having any evidence while ironically has censored such so called evidences which you have bring your so called evidences from an obsolete archive which ironically has been has been neglected by zionist propaganda machine   :blabla::titanic::hahaha:

 

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21 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

you have bring your so called evidences from an obsolete archive


??

The linked investigative report is from yesterday’s NY Times. It is shared from an archive so that no one can bring the excuse that they can’t read the article because they got blocked by a paywall. 

You’re welcome, genius. 

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On 12/27/2023 at 8:14 PM, kadhim said:

Israel has a national lab with forensic anthropologists working to identify the remains of people. They have invited foreign journalists and officials to come visit this lab and speak to the investigators there. Are all these forensic anthropologists lying? Are they in on it? Are the journalists and officials who went there and reported on it also in on the conspiracy? 

What is your actual thought process here? Or is it just plain old denial? 

 

41 minutes ago, kadhim said:

because they got blocked by a paywall. 

Salam , Nobody can block a zionist propaganda even most rich Arab in world by paywall which whole of article is just based on too weak assumption from IDF propaganda for justifying it's war crime against so called settlers which it has refuted your false assumption about authenticity of any forensic anthropologists in zionist Israel which IDF & zionist illegal government have buried victims immediately in order to hide their war crimes because in further investigation all evidences would be against them which any sane person doesn't loose such great point against Hamas while it has too many ways for spreading such zionist propaganda through many pro zionist msm in America & multiple zionist msm in it's illegal state but ironically such sensitive matter in favor of zionist propaganda has been just limited to a single report from New york times while other pro zionist American media have totally neglected or censored it because none of them can verify validity of so called evidences which whole of article is just based on engaging emotions & twisting words in favor of IDF & illegal fake state of Israel.:einstein::book::respect::censored::keeporder::hahaha::titanic:

 

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These "foreign journalists" have no clue about anything, some of these foreign journalists from cnn mistook an iron dome system for a hamas rocket, other times I saw these journalists think tel aviv was in the golan heights and haifa in the west bank. These "journalists" are told everything they need to know about this conflict, by "fixers", people that will give them biased context on the situation in the middle east. These journalists who come to israel and cooperate with the israeli state are litteral jokes and actors. I have nothing against them, I understand they need to make a living, but they are a joke. 

Edit: Now I'm not saying all of them are, certainly this is less the case with independent journalists, however most of them are a joke or biased.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

Salam , Nobody can block a zionist propaganda even most rich Arab in world by paywall which whole of article is just based on too weak assumption from IDF propaganda for justifying it's war crime against so called settlers which it has refuted your false assumption about authenticity of any forensic anthropologists in zionist Israel which IDF & zionist illegal government have buried victims immediately in order to hide their war crimes because in further investigation all evidences would be against them which any sane person doesn't loose such great point against Hamas while it has too many ways for spreading such zionist propaganda through many pro zionist msm in America & multiple zionist msm in it's illegal state but ironically such sensitive matter in favor of zionist propaganda has been just limited to a single report from New york times while other pro zionist American media have totally neglected or censored it because none of them can verify validity of so called evidences which whole of article is just based on engaging emotions & twisting words in favor of IDF & illegal fake state of Israel.:einstein::book::respect::censored::keeporder::hahaha::titanic:

 

Israel litterally buried the burnt cars so as to "respect" the wishes of the victims, how convenient.

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Police avoid this city in Israel pro Palestine orthodox Jews

https://youtu.be/8Rb_jrlPZWw?si=4gZrDMtGb_xbGGHP

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This is a video I forgot about, I remeber seeing it in 2021, this is a must watch.

The amount of israelis that I have seen justifying the killing of palestinian babies because they will be "potential terrorists" is very worrying, I've seen this sentiment shared by pro israelis many times. Now I'm certain most of them beleive this given their repetition of "there are no innocents in gaza". 

 

 

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4 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Times of israel calling shamsi a "senior islamic scholar" and daniel haqiqatjou a "an iranian shia jihadist" :hahaha:

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/is-madkhalism-a-friend-of-the-state-of-israel/

 

Screenshot_20231230-1718032.thumb.png.361c96d60029612e691c671b98a2feef.pngimage-5.png.3bdac1ba32ba3bc57528ee5e9bc3771a.png

Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari quoted the Messenger of Allah (s) as saying:

“Whoever pleases an unjust ruler, and deviates from the right path, is expelled from the religion of Allah.”

But we never take this seriously and consider everyone as Muslim. 

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It’s not just bullets and bombs. I have never seen health organisations as worried as they are about disease in Gaza

Prof Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/29/health-organisations-disease-gaza-population-outbreaks-conflict?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

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14 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Salams,

I'm honestly not sure when talking with Mallangs over the years you crossed the contrarian threshold and started running standard Zionist talking points. I'm not sure I'm exactly shocked, I don't think I expected it from you but why not, Shiachat contrarians inevitably have their downward spiral into smooth-brained behavior-- we all saw a good example of that ten years ago. I appreciate you said here that these aren't "Zionist talking points", just reality and history. Yet here you ask, obviously in good faith, about the responsibility that the Arabs bear for the 48 refugee crisis because they told the Palestinians to leave compared with the Israelis. You're literally running the oldest Zionist line in the book loooool "the Palestinians left because of radio broadcasts". You claim elsewhere to have read a lot of books about the conflict because you used to have iman and defend the Palestinian cause, now you're "both siding" this issue (because a nuclear state with a desire to ethnically cleanse before the founding of its country, diplomatic cover from the world's superpowers, and a standing military engaging in a belligerent occupation is on equal footing with people that just wanted to stay on/return to their farms and not lose their national identity). I'll ask you because you're so obviously well-read talking about hypotheses regarding whether Al-Shifa hospital was the pentagon of Hamas like Israel was showing in its Tora-Bora style graphics lol, how many Palestinians left because of instructions from Arab leaders to do so? Benny Morris gives this figure if you need a hint. I have no idea if you were being purposely deceptive when saying "not all, but a large portion" of more than 700, 000 left due to these broadcasts. Let me have some husn al-dhann for you that you don't have for others, though, inshaAllah. Even Christopher "I need to be waterboarded to prove to myself it's torture" Hitchens sees through the nonsense here but you're too much of a smart@ss, barakallahu feek.

Amazingly elsewhere you actually make the argument about the earnestness of the IDF about their al-Shifa seige and believe the evidence somehow concludes the proposition that the IDF was making before (refer to those meme-worthy 3D Tora-Bora diagrams), that this is the command center for Hamas. Great question you're asking, what evidence would we need to have to prove this claim true. The smooth-brained answer was, "Ten guns are enough, they took the rest with them, ignoring the IDF having adjusted the evidence as they were caught doing by the BBC".

May Allah recompense you for the stance you take during the worst aerial bombardment seen since the end of the second world war as well as a man-made famine by the Israelis (looks like saying eyn mayim eyn mazon eyn hashmal eyn deleq, systematically destroying farmland, and bombing bakeries, while trying to prevent aid from entering the strip has that effect), what senior human rights officials with the UN and scholars of genocide are arguing is a genocide. While all that's happening you're sitting here asking if there was ever a Palestine before 1918(!!!). Obviously being an Arab (and wallahi I wouldn't understand how such a traitor and duyuth can be an Arab if I didn't see the worms leading the Arabs) you can't seriously run the standard Zionist lines about this so instead you just deny the unity of any Palestinian nation. Even if the fact that the Ottoman division was into a couple of sanjaks, what does that have to do with the fact that these people developed a national identity contemporaneously to Zionism and independent of it for the land they were actually living on, leaving the fact that there were really two Sanjaks to speak of Falastin proper up to the point of Yafa and Urdun/Jalil depending on what time/empire we're talking about. As if some blood and soil nationalism is more valid than other blood and soil nationalism. 

I don't know how many absurdities and falsifications are in this post alone, you frame the 1948 partition as a "pretty sweet deal", the one which gave 55% of the land to 30% of the population, a Jewish population equal to the Arab one in the lands that were going to become part of the Jewish state. You frame the wars between 1948-1973 as being defensive wars that were forced on Israelis, a standard piece of propaganda by the Zionists, a talking point which has been debunked by Menachem Begin himself nearly a half a century ago and on the point of the 67 war, this is a talking point which is debunked by Patchy the Pirate aka Moshe Dayan, Aba Eban, Lyndon Johnson, among others. You then state "Israel needs a suitable negotiating partner before there can be a resolution to the conflict", another standard Israeli talking point. And then end a point about Lebanon (of course looking at it with child lenses again, seeing the 76 civil war as a result of the PLO exclusively, not of the colonial legacy of France in Lebanon), before basically asking why the Arabs don't let the Palestinians in as refugees. I wonder who says lines like this? Obviously Nazis (re Hitler stating this about Jewish refugees at the dawn of WWII) but also Zionists. Of course, there's no material explanations about why Egypt doesn't absorb the Gazan population, like its collusion with Israel over the Rafah crossing or the fact that it already has more than half a million refugees from neighbouring countries, including 300 000 which came from Sudan just this year, or that a settlement to the refugee crisis has been an essential Arab demand for 70+ years, not an exacerbation of the problem. It's just that the Gazans are stinky and barberous. That's why pristine Israel or the rest of the Arab world doesn't want to take them in. I'm still in awe of this sentence: "If Palestinians and Arabs had worked with sincerity and purpose within that framework, the Palestinian state could have thrived." At least you didn't say "Gaza could have been Dubai if the Palestinians didn't mess that one up!!" But of course, you've read a great deal about this, you say so at least.

I applaud you for not being as lobotomized as certain people about running war crime denial for the Muslim side, instead you've just hardcore gone the opposite direction. You're honestly surprised people are saying that you're running standard Zionist talking points and your counter is this is just reality. Is the above just reality? I'm sorry, you're an idiot at best and a shill at worst, I hope you got a white Jewish wife and a Hasbara salary for your shameless, idiotic, propagandistic posts. You got angry when someone brought up Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) but wallah you would have sat in the 680s condemning Imam Husayn as a baghi who was given many options to make peace but "Imam Husayn never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and of course your only answer to that would be "would Imam Husayn have slaughtered innocent civilians on October the 7th". Because you're obviously very intelligent and good at finding the point.

 

 

To respond to the nonsense you said above, briefly. Counterfactuals are firstly inherently unknowable since, you know, they didn't happen and the subsequent possibilities stemming from them are completely unknown. Secondly, of course being as well read about the conflict as you claim to be and as you've demonstrated you are, you know that the first Palestinian national ambition was to be part of a Bilad al-Sham, which by the 20s was understood that was not going to happen. When Palestinian national liberation became the goal in the defeat of a goal for a united Sham and the Arab League took up the cause, Musa al-A'lami was sent to the Alexandria conference in 1945 to represent the Palestinians and was given the status of a "delegate", as Benny Morris puts it on page 26 of his history of the 48 conflict "the Palestinian Arab community thus enjoying, at least theoretically, an equal footing with existing or emergent Arab States." Of course, I'm sure you read 1948 when making your very informed conclusions about the past and present of the conflict, as you said, you're very well-read. Ostensibly the Arabs were pushing for Palestinian sovereignty, and as a note as to who the Palestinians preferred for a military occupation, even after Israel attempted to improve the economic situation in Gaza in their 56-7 occupation, the Palestinians still preferred Egyptian military occupation which was undoubtedly brutal and repressive, a fact Sara M. Roy details in her book on the economic de-development of Gaza. But of course, you also knew this I'm sure.

Please go back to debating Ya Ali with malangs, it was a better look for you. Otherwise, I really hope you got a salary and white wife for the nonsense you've decided is a great idea to dedicate yourself to posting during a genocide. Your Akhira will be a lot more bleak.

 

والحمد لله رب العالمين والعاقبة للمتقين والجنة للموحدين والنار للملحدين والعدوان الأعلى للظالمين

اللهم حرر فلسطين وشعبها

اللهم ارحم شهداء فلسطين

اللهم العن اعداء المسلمين من قتلهم ومن ظلمهم ومن سمع بذلك فرضي به

/s ———

Yup. You got me. The boys in powder blue are paying the big-time shekels to internet nobodies so that they can propagandize to groups of 10 other internet nobodies on a dying, relic of another time, old-skool PHPBB discussion board. 

Because that’s where the talk is at, right? 

——— /s

I don’t have anything further to add about topics from a month ago. The train’s moved on. I don’t have anything further to say in general.

I wish the Palestinians the best as I always have. May they have their own state one day, under good leadership dedicated to devoting all efforts into building the best future they can on whatever is left when that happens. 

May all their neighbors live in peace and security beside them. 

May hatred of the other fade from the hearts of the people of both sides. 

Ameen.

I have said my piece. I wash my hands of it. You guys have fun. Do as you like. Continue the same old routine that has worked out just so well  over the past 75 years. Keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. I seem to faintly recall that being called the definition of something. But sadly, my “declining mind” cannot remember. Oh well.

I do want to positively call out one thing:

14 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I applaud you for not being as lobotomized as certain people about running war crime denial for the Muslim side

If I’m understanding you correctly here, thank you for this part. It is so relieving to finally have some company on this point and I invite you to add your voice about this more vocally in this and other threads accordingly. Glad I was able to coax you out of hiding, though it sure took you a while. 

14 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

instead you've just hardcore gone the opposite direction.

Hold up. Untrue. I picked apart that one incident in that hospital parking lot where Palestinians tried to blame Israel for PIJ’s mistake. As per consensus of expert observers. But I’ve never tried to deny in any broad sense that Palestinians are getting awful things rained down upon them that most of them don’t really deserve. (Though, to quote a favorite movie of my youth, “deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it”)

You rewind the tape to day one, and I’m the only one on here bewailing the awfulness that was about to descend, and praying for the wellness of the people dragged into this by Hamas’ lunacy. This while the same usual suspects were cheering and laughing like it was going to be a party.

I think they’re cheering and laughing less now.

I feel sorry for the average Palestinian folk caught in the middle of Hamas’ adventure. I really do. I hope this stops soon. But I can’t just turn off half of my mind and pretend not to have noticed that this fight is happening in Gaza because the government of Gaza specifically went out looking for the fight. Don’t start **** and then complain when it goes badly. You wanted it; own it.
I can’t participate in this fiction that the response just fell inexplicably from the sky, or that Hamas wasn’t specifically looking exactly for this sort of response, especially given the nature of the acts that set this flare-up off.

To pull down death upon your women and children just so that you can make videos to try to wound your opponent in the battle of public opinion? There is something unmanly about this. 

And all this is just underlined by the disgusting and widespread community denialism about those acts. 

I’m out of the conversation. For now. 

I leave you with a musical gift. 

 

Edited by kadhim
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1 hour ago, kadhim said:

To pull down death upon your women and children just so that you can make videos to try to wound your opponent in the battle of public opinion? There is something unmanly about this. 

I have to add to this part:

To pull down death upon ones women and children just to make videos so you can wound the opponent in the battle of public opinion? While hiding away in burrows, doors locked with the women and children stuck outside on the surface?! There is something unmanly in this.

—— 

Performing a national suicide-by-cop as some sort of morbid performance art piece is not a sane strategy. 

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1 hour ago, kadhim said:

I’m out of the conversation. For now. 

I leave you with a musical gift. 

Not sure what I would expect from a worm other than to slink away after taking a dump on the discourse with bad-faith replies and misinformation, either said unknowingly like an idiot or knowingly like a shill. How did I know you wouldn't be a man and ignore the points I make to continue zionist shilling and being a smug contrarian

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

Because that’s where the talk is at, right? 

Sarcasm aside I appreciate that was the only thing you could try to make one of your reddit level comment at. Like I said though, you're great at finding on holding onto the point.

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

Continue the same old routine that has worked out just so well  over the past 75 years. Keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. I seem to faintly recall that being called the definition of something. But sadly, my “declining mind” cannot remember. Oh well.

You see a colonial apartheid state with a stated intention of total control of the entirety of historic Palestine and a desire to expel the population (having expelled 1, 000, 000 in the 48 and 67 wars). This same entity has worked to derail all peace talks and negotiations since the 70s, as their leaders are saying openly now after historians have written about this for decades, while the Palestinian side (even Hamas, yes those bad guys) adopted a more and more conciliatory position about losing everything. I'm glad after pondering on our religion and insulting all that crossed your path for all the years of your venerable life you proudly and shamelessly say the real problem with the madhlum is they could try to seem more reasonable to an uncompromising dhalim who is on record denying their existence as a people. 

 

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

If I’m understanding you correctly here, thank you for this part. It is so relieving to finally have some company on this point and I invite you to add your voice about this more vocally in this and other threads accordingly. Glad I was able to coax you out of hiding, though it sure took you a while. 

Thanks, man, after all our interactions over the many years I obviously couldn't done it without you. I've obviously posted a lot since this conflict began. The problem with you is your head is so far up your own rear that I can't tell with you when you're joking or when you really have bought into the delusion you only drop knowledge on us idiots and we need to recite salawat after each time you fart. 

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

Hold up. Untrue. I picked apart that one incident in that hospital parking lot where Palestinians tried to blame Israel for PIJ’s mistake. As per consensus of expert observers. 

I'm assuming you're referring al-Ahli, the hospital the Israelis struck twice in the week leading up to October 17th, warned to be evacuated (aware of the impossibility of a hospital doing so), and bombed the vicinity of all during their active bombing campaign of civilian infrastructure in Gaza they purport (and you concur barakallah feek) also hold enough military infrastructure to justify babies rotting in their beds (a la al-Nasr) and elderly kidney dialysis patients from the generation of the nakba dying after not getting dialysis for two weeks. The experts who initially verified that it was most likely not the Israelis for the BBC by three experts. One of these three works as a research fellow for an institute receiving funding from the US State Department, the UK foreign office, the British army, and arms companies. One edits a journal for an Israeli think tank that had a Mossad chief on its board. The last is a fellow at the NATO Defense College and the CFR, the latter of which has on its board the heads of arms companies, banks, and corporations. This is all from analysis of the photos since there is a war going on in the area and real analysis is not possible now. The Palestinian side has, at least ostensibly, welcomed third-party analysis. America and Israel have not been open to it. The only third-party investigation by a human rights organization was by HRW, which also did an analysis of recordings and satellite images of the blast, not the blast itself, and which opened with, "While misfires are frequent, further investigation is needed to determine who launched the apparent rocket and whether the laws of war were violated." I'm glad you, in your being very fair and balanced, equally criticizing the Palestinian and the Israeli side, have already concluded that it's a Palestinian-caused explosion. All of this doesn't matter anyway, most hospitals in Gaza are not functional, and the hospitals in the northern part of the strip have all been besieged (where we had those aforementioned 4 babies verified by HRW rot in their beds after they starved to death, after the Israeli army forced doctors to abandon them). Slink away from having to deal with the responsibility of saying the cr@p you do by saying you're done with this conversation though.

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

But I’ve never tried to deny in any broad sense that Palestinians are getting awful things rained down upon them that most of them don’t really deserve. (Though, to quote a favorite movie of my youth, “deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it”)

Yeah thanks man, that quote really explains away nuclear states committing war crimes on civilian populations. Of course you didn't try to deny their suffering though. You just said things like the Arabs were primarily ("lion's share" to use your words) responsible for the 48 refugee crisis which displaced more than 700 000 people because of radio broadcasts, not the 68 known massacres of Palestinian villages, Israeli terrorism to frighten other villagers into leaving, forced marches, etc. all under a plan, a tokhnith daleth if you will, to cleanse them realizing a known intention the Zionists had for decades by that point. Or that the reason that no one wants the Gazans is because they're just a bunch of stinky savages that can't help themselves. Or that partition plans require the partition of a country from a majority requiring the forced migrations of hundreds of thousands of people (at a time when no one realized how little the world would care about their situation or how 75 years later this injustice would be unresolved), such partition plans were a "sweet deal". Or any of the other Zionist propaganda points you said coming short of Golda Meir saying there is no such thing as a Palestinian or Abba Eban saying the Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance. But sure, you're not denying anything. Let's see further down how you'll contradict yourself by saying don't start **** if you don't want it. You shameless worm.

 

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

I think they’re cheering and laughing less now.

I'm glad you look at people who, not realizing the full extent of the brutality of escaped concentration camp inmates going on a rampage after experiencing freedom from their guards for the first time, were happy that they had a rebellion in their concentration camp and experienced hope for at least one day that this deadlock of pretending this crisis doesn't exist is over, and you condescend to how the initial glimmer of hope, after years of watching peaceful protestors and journalists getting sniped, is gone in the face of genocide and man-made famine. They're credulous so I guess it's worth being a smart@ss about.

 

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

I feel sorry for the average Palestinian folk caught in the middle of Hamas’ adventure. I really do. I hope this stops soon. But I can’t just turn off half of my mind and pretend not to have noticed that this fight is happening in Gaza because the government of Gaza specifically went out looking for the fight. Don’t start **** and then complain when it goes badly. You wanted it; own it.
I can’t participate in this fiction that the response just fell inexplicably from the sky, or that Hamas wasn’t specifically looking exactly for this sort of response, especially given the nature of the acts that set this flare-up off.

I don't care about any political group in this conflict and neither do the majority of Gazans, the high end of Gazan support for Hamas is always about 40%. From the known and verified atrocities, they acted brutally in a way reminiscent of the sahaba, not of the Prophet and Ahl al-Bayt, and slaughtered civilians. That being said, please don't overlook in your framing that the men who did this grew up in a concentration camp. I keep referring to it as a concentration camp because in March 2004, Giora Eiland, Israeli general and then head of the NSC (Israeli military intelligence), told the US ambassador that Gaza was a "huge concentration camp". And this nearly three years before a blockade the UN characterized as "medieval" which has crippled the economy of Gaza (as Israel has been aiming to do for decades now and has institutionalized in Oslo and elsewhere-- detailed by Sara M. Roy in her book on the economic history of Gaza). This was before Gaza became unlivable as the UN warned it would become by 2020 (3 years ago) in 2012. If you read the report, many of the crucial thresholds for unlivability were effectively here before the war but now Gaza is uninhabitable period.

This, once again, being the Israeli plan for Gaza since the first Intifada nearly 40 years ago, with the cover of framing this as the response to Hamas Israel is forced to give only coming after 2005 (once again, as discussed by Sara M. Roy). Giora Eiland, who also said the solution to the Gazan question lay in the expulsion to the Sinai desert in furtherance of the Allon plan in that same leaked cable, is now a military advisor during this current genocide, where discussions about the Sinai have once again come up. Dov Weisglass, the advisor and spokesperson of Ariel Sharon told Haaretz in 2004, a year before Hamas was elected to office, that disengagement from Gaza would "freeze the peace process". Yet you've divined the Israeli intentions, they just want peace, and the Palestinians want war. Just say what that Israeli guy in my Hebrew class told me, if the Palestinians put down their guns there would be peace, if the Israelis put down their guns there would be no more Israel. Wanting to freeze the peace process with what we've seen these past 30 years in exacerbated de-development, isolation, and, plainly, pretending the problem doesn't exist indicates you want peace. 

Instead, you say the people who are getting shafted by these people who just want you to disappear into the Sinai desert so Haarei Zahav can make beachfront properties on "khof aza", the ones living in a concentration camp, three-quarters of whom are unemployed, who are under occupation by a militant force, who get sniped when they peacefully protest, who get called unwanted stinky barbarians by you, who have no prospects to speak of and who the other said to the American economists working at the American embassy in Israel the goal is to economically destroy them, and you blame the concentration camp inmates for getting bombed to the stone age and slaughtered in their hospital beds by a nuclear state subsidized by the west because of an uprising. In your mind, the repression of black slaves and freemen following Nat Turner's rebellion was justified. In your mind, the slaughter, ethnic cleansing, and genocide of Native Americans were justified because they fought back against their colonizers. In both instances, these oppressed groups committed atrocities. In both instances, their atrocities were symptoms, not the problem. Your analysis is completely unable to take that into account. You just get a smile ear to ear thinking about how they had it coming you piece of filth.

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

While hiding away in burrows, doors locked with the women and children stuck outside on the surface?! There is something unmanly in this

"Those cowardly guerrillas and their effective tactics during asymmetric combat against an army committing a high-tech genocide." Like I said, as ever a great source for historical, political, and military commentary and analysis.

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

I wish the Palestinians the best as I always have.

Yeah, I bet you think you do. 

 

 

Anyways, slink away from having to own the words you said and deal after saying you're just stating facts, not zionist talking points. I'm sure it was really easy arguing with people who deny atrocities occurred period. What can I expect from Abu Safsata?

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2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I'm glad you look at people who, not realizing the full extent of the brutality of escaped concentration camp inmates going on a rampage after experiencing freedom from their guards for the first time, were happy that they had a rebellion in their concentration camp and experienced hope for at least one day that this deadlock of pretending this crisis doesn't exist is over, and you condescend to how the initial glimmer of hope, after years of watching peaceful protestors and journalists getting sniped, is gone in the face of genocide and man-made famine.

I was not talking about the ones cheering in Gaza who didn’t know. I get them. I believe they didn’t know. That’s part of the tragedy. 

I was talking about the ones here, the outsider observers commenting from safety, who did have access to the full spectrum of information, who were nevertheless similarly celebrating, despite knowing about the horrors that happened. And the response that would inevitably bring. The same ones who also embarrassingly continue to deny it or downplay it.

2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

From the known and verified atrocities, they acted brutally in a way reminiscent of the sahaba, not of the Prophet and Ahl al-Bayt, and slaughtered civilians. That being said, please don't overlook in your framing that the men who did this grew up in a concentration camp.

I don’t. As a fallible human being I know the darkness inside human beings and I get it on that level. But to condone or even forgive it is not something I can allow myself to do. 

2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

you blame the concentration camp inmates for getting bombed to the stone age and slaughtered in their hospital beds by a nuclear state subsidized by the west because of an uprising.

No. I put the blame solely and entirely on their leadership. They clearly had the element of surprise and operational ability to launch a clean, surgical, purely military strike that sent the same message and was morally cleaner and more defensible. Instead they intentionally dialed the civilian brutality to 11 to maximize the anger of the response. It’s stupid not to blame Hamas for that. They deliberately chose a course of action that would get as many of their compatriots killed as possible, to get more grisly Instagram posts. That’s sociopathic. 

Can we agree on that?

2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

You just get a smile ear to ear thinking about how they had it coming you piece of filth.

I can assure you that I do not. None of this situation makes me happy at all. 

2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

I'm sure it was really easy arguing with people who deny atrocities occurred period.

It is rather unpleasant and challenging actually. I wish you better luck cracking through their heads than I had. I look forward to seeing you start contributing to those efforts. 

2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

such partition plans were a "sweet deal".

Look. I acknowledge that hindsight is 20-20, and the decision-makers of the day can’t realistically have been expected to fully foresee the consequences of what would come of losing the bets they were taking.

But, objectively, with the benefit of hindsight, it was a much better deal than was ever offered later and much much better than whatever will be possible now. 

True or false? 

Edited by kadhim
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