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In the Name of God بسم الله

"ARSH" the throne of Allah?

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Yes I would like to know too.

A person came to Imam Sadiq (as) once, and asked him why is the Kaba in the Square shape. He replied, the Kaba is in line with Bait-al-Mamoor, which is the house in the 4th Heavan, where the Angels do Tawaf, which also has 4 sides.

He then asked, why is that in Square form? Imam replied, because it is in line with the Throne of Allah, which is also in a Square form.

He then asked, why is that in a Square form? The Imam replied, because those 4 sides represent Islam.

Islam sits on 4 things.

Subhanalahi wal Hamdoliallahi wa Lailahailalaho Wa Allahu Akber.

Edited by Ali_Imran
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Says the Shaykh Abu Ja’far: Our belief concerning the Throne (‘arsh) is that it is something which is carried or supported by the whole of creation. And ‘arsh according to another interpretation is knowledge (ilm). And as-Sadiq, on whom be peace, was asked (the meaning of) the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Glorious: "The Beneficent One, Who it established on the Throne" [20,4]. He said: He is equidistant from everything, and not a single thing is nearer to Him than another. Now that 'arsh, which is supported by the whole of creation, is borne by eight angels, each possessing eight eyes, each eye as large as the world. One of the angels is of human shape and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for the sons of Adam. The second is of the shape of a bull, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts. And the third is of the shape of a lion, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts of prey. And the fourth is of the shape of a fowl, and he asks Allah to provide sustenance for all birds.

Today there exist four angels, but when the Day of Resurrection comes, they will become eight in number.

The 'arsh which means knowledge is borne by four amongst the ancients and four amongst the later ones; the former ones are Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, on all of whom be peace; and the later are Muhammad, ‘Ali, Hasan, and Husayn, the blessings of Allah upon them. This is what has been handed down from the Imams by a reliable chain of authorities concerning the Throne and its bearers.

Now the reason why these persons became the bearers of the 'arsh, that is the knowledge (of Allah), is that the ancient prophets, who lived prior to our Prophet Muhammad, namely, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, brought four different faiths. It was through these that the true knowledge passed to them (i.e. Muhammad, Ali, etc.). Similarly the true knowledge was transmitted after Muhammad, by ‘Ali, Hasan and Husayn to those amongst the Imams who came after Husayn.

Shaykh Saduq, al-itiqadat al-Imamiyyah, Chapter 14.

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.. eight angels, each possessing eight eyes, each eye as large as the world. One of the angels is of human shape and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for the sons of Adam. The second is of the shape of a bull, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts. And the third is of the shape of a lion, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts of prey. And the fourth is of the shape of a fowl, and he asks Allah to provide sustenance for all birds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One question... is Sheikh Suduq stating a belief some people held, or he of he same opinion?
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Peer,Mar 4 2005, 04:30 PM

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja’far: Our belief concerning the Throne (‘arsh) is that it is something which is carried or supported by the whole of creation.

You did not make it clear if "ARSH" is considered to be a throne or not, you are ambigious "it is something"

And ‘arsh according to another interpretation is knowledge (ilm). And as-Sadiq, on whom be peace, was asked (the meaning of) the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Glorious: "The Beneficent One, Who it established on the Throne" [20,4]. He said: He is equidistant from everything, and not a single thing is nearer to Him than another.

please provied evidence that "ARSH" is interpreted as knowledge[ilm] as the above narration does not.

Now that 'arsh, which is supported by the whole of creation, is borne by eight angels, each possessing eight eyes, each eye as large as the world. One of the angels is of human shape and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for the sons of Adam. The second is of the shape of a bull, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts. And the third is of the shape of a lion, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts of prey. And the fourth is of the shape of a fowl, and he asks Allah to provide sustenance for all birds.

This is first time I have heard of this inshallah I will make effort to explore this avenue further.

Today there exist four angels, but when the Day of Resurrection comes, they will become eight in number.

Please provied authentic hadith from Rasoolallah and imams to this effect.

The 'arsh which means knowledge is borne by four amongst the ancients and four amongst the later ones; the former ones are Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, on all of whom be peace; and the later are Muhammad, ‘Ali, Hasan, and Husayn, the blessings of Allah upon them. This is what has been handed down from the Imams by a reliable chain of authorities concerning the Throne and its bearers.

So "ARSH" of Allah is evident from the knowledge borne by the eight messenger of Allah though 25 are mentioned in Quran and it is not evident on its own.

Now the reason why these persons became the bearers of the 'arsh, that is the knowledge (of Allah), is that the ancient prophets, who lived prior to our Prophet Muhammad, namely, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, brought four different faiths. It was through these that the true knowledge passed to them (i.e. Muhammad, Ali, etc.). Similarly the true knowledge was transmitted after Muhammad, by ‘Ali, Hasan and Husayn to those amongst the Imams who came after Husayn.

By Allah this does not make sense Islam is also known as Deen-e-Ibrahimee

and for this reason we muslim send darood on him and his family and ask Allah to send similar blessing on the Rasool Allah[saw] and his family[ra].

I will be waiting for another shia members to explain it further this rerponse has created further confusion, instead of solving it. It was a good attempt. Inshallah I will try to post the names of more than four angels that exist from shia books.[please do not hold me to it as read those long time back]

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ilm-e -jafar is in no way related to shia ahadith. Its related to knowledge of unseen which is banned in islam.

My answer is quite precise and accurate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(bismillah)

I would love to debate this issue with you but for now time restrict me, as I can not do justice with two topics at time. I do put forth my humble apologies. My request under this thread still remain un satisfied.

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Quran says at one point the arsh was on the water, and also says on the day of judgement 8 will be carrying the arsh and also says that Allah (swt) astawa alal arsh

I think the meaning should show how non of these contradict each other

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ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْش7:54ِ

[yusufali]and is firmly established on the throne (of authority):

[shakir]and He is firm in power;

If we take literal meaning of this verse, it will mean "and God raised on arsh(throne)" but if we translate it like that, a problem creates which is attributing physical body to God, which is against the verse "no vision can behold Him".

Edited by sayedzeeshan
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ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْش7:54ِ

[yusufali]and is firmly established on the throne (of authority):

[shakir]and He is firm in power;

If we take literal meaning of this verse, it will mean "and God raised on arsh(throne)" but if we translate it like that, a problem creates which is attributing physical body to God, which is against the verse "no vision can behold Him".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that is why i refurse to translate it in my originally post, did not want to commit shirk

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(bismillah)

Is there any other member who would like to help me understand the concept of shia beliefs about "ARSH" I have heard that there is collection of very many knowledgable members on this board. So far exhibition has been very poor. I regret to say.

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You did not make it clear if "ARSH" is considered to be a throne or not, you are ambigious "it is something"

please provied evidence that "ARSH" is interpreted as knowledge[ilm] as the above narration does not.

This is first time I have heard of this inshallah I will make effort to explore this avenue further.

Please provied authentic hadith from Rasoolallah and imams to this effect.

So "ARSH" of Allah is evident from the knowledge borne by the eight messenger of Allah though 25 are mentioned in Quran and it is not evident on its own.

By Allah this does not make sense Islam is also known as Deen-e-Ibrahimee

and for this reason we muslim send darood on him and his family and ask Allah to send similar blessing on the Rasool Allah[saw] and his family[ra].

I will be waiting for another shia members to explain it further this rerponse has created further confusion, instead of solving it. It was a good attempt. Inshallah I will try to post the names of more than four angels that exist from shia books.[please do not hold me to it as read those long time back]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man, you're questioning me as if I wrote all that stuff.

As I stated in that post, it was taken from the book The beliefs of Imamiyyah written by Shaykh al-Muhadditheen, Ibn Babwiyah al-Qummi.

Secondly, what do you mean by I didn't make clear if arsh is same as throne? :unsure: Aren't they simply the translation of each other? Or did you mean something deep by that? :huh:

and "it is something" is actually the definition of arsh(=Throne). It's how you define things, right?

Man four different faiths, as in four different laws(=Shariah), I believe. Deen-e-Ibrahimi? Didn't Prophet (pbuh) bring with him a new law(=Quran)?

Anyway man, g'luck!

wa'Salam

Ali

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Man, you're questioning me as if I wrote all that stuff.

You do accept the beliefs as interprated by the shia scholars?

As I stated in that post, it was taken from the book The beliefs of Imamiyyah written by Shaykh al-Muhadditheen, Ibn Babwiyah al-Qummi.

So you believe that "ARSH" is power of Allah

Secondly, what do you mean by I didn't make clear if arsh is same as throne? :unsure: Aren't they simply the translation of each other? Or did you mean something deep by that? :huh:

You either believe "ARSH" is power of Allah or His throne

and "it is something" is actually the definition of arsh(=Throne). It's how you define things, right?

If shia scholar are accepting "ARSHA as pwoer of Allah then where ddoes throne come in.

Man four different faiths, as in four different laws(=Shariah), I believe. Deen-e-Ibrahimi? Didn't Prophet (pbuh) bring with him a new law(=Quran)?

No Islam is deen of Ibraheem and for that very reason we follow many sunnah of Hz. Ibraheem[AS] for example HAJJ, and anything that came after him is the continuation of the same deen.

Thank you for wishing me good luck

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(salam)

here are the verses:

(bismillah)

69_17.gif

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The eight immortals mentioned are the bearers of the Arsh; i.e. they are the SUPREME AUTHORITY, Malaa al Aala, Ba Xian.

http://www.chinapage.com/8-immortal.html

4immortal.jpg

http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/jras/1916-21.htm

Jade Emperor or Khizr is the Supreme Authority, the Small Face of the Rabb.

http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-belief...m/pg2-4-2-4.asp

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(bismillah)

69:17. And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.

But shia do not believe is pysical attributes of Allah, and shia members have claimed that "ARSH" denotes the powers of Allah and not the physical existance

Peer quote from one of the most eminant shia scholars of all time:

As I stated in that post, it was taken from the book The beliefs of Imamiyyah written by Shaykh al-Muhadditheen, Ibn Babwiyah al-Qummi.

^so would this mean that the respected scholar failed to understand the text of Quran-e-Majeed?

I think that shia members should do better then this in explainning their belief, as I see them discussing lot of issues on this board with vast wealth of knowledge, such a limited response does not do justice to this board.

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The Shia belief in Cosmic Guardianship of the Imams (Wilayyat-e-Taqwini) has root in such belief regarding Arsh. This is the foundation which “Ya Ali Madad” is standing upon. Sufis are no exception regarding their Gaauses and Qutbs.

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(bismillah)

Please can you be more explicit on the statement you made as it is self contradictory, "ARSH" has to do with powers possesed by Allah Almighty Himself[according to shia beliefs] and according to shia beliefs the Imams are devinly ordained leaders of Ummah. I do not want to put word in your mouth but word "COSMIC" mean "SPACE" what is your defination of this word in context of the statement you made?

Edited by mobeen
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(bismillah)

Please find below the article the link to which was provieded by God Loves You, it appears that originator of the article is trying to grasp at different interprtations of the "ARSH" and mesh them togather which do appear quite contradictory, as word throne is mentioned in Quran so it is something he could not throw out. Insist on converting the throne in to power of Allah or whole creation. If this had been the case then why Allah did not mention, the word "POWER" or "KNOWLEDGE" instead of "THRONE"

THE BELIEF CONCERNINC THE THRONE (‘arsh)

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja’far: Our belief concerning the Throne (‘arsh) is that it is something which is carried or supported by the whole of creation. And ‘arsh according to another interpretation is knowledge (ilm). And as-Sadiq, on whom be peace, was asked (the meaning of) the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Glorious: "The Beneficent One, Who it established on the Throne" [20,4]. He said: He is equidistant from everything, and not a single thing is nearer to Him than another. Now that 'arsh, which is supported by the whole of creation, is borne by eight angels, each possessing eight eyes, each eye as large as the world. One of the angels is of human shape and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for the sons of Adam. The second is of the shape of a bull, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts. And the third is of the shape of a lion, and he asks Allah to provide daily bread for all beasts of prey. And the fourth is of the shape of a fowl, and he asks Allah to provide sustenance for all birds.

Today there exist four angels, but when the Day of Resurrection comes, they will become eight in number.

The 'arsh which means knowledge is borne by four amongst the ancients and four amongst the later ones; the former ones are Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, on all of whom be peace; and the later are Muhammad, ‘Ali, Hasan, and Husayn, the blessings of Allah upon them. This is what has been handed down from the Imams by a reliable chain of authorities concerning the Throne and its bearers.

Now the reason why these persons became the bearers of the 'arsh, that is the knowledge (of Allah), is that the ancient prophets, who lived prior to our Prophet Muhammad, namely, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, brought four different faiths. It was through these that the true knowledge passed to them (i.e. Muhammad, Ali, etc.). Similarly the true knowledge was transmitted after Muhammad, by ‘Ali, Hasan and Husayn to those amongst the Imams who came after Husayn.

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Please can you be more explicit on the statement you made as it is self contradictory, "ARSH" has to do with powers possesed by Allah Almighty Himself[according to shia beliefs] and according to shia beliefs the Imams are devinly ordained leaders of Ummah. I do not want to put word in your mouth but word "COSMIC" mean "SPACE" what is your defination of this word in context of the statement you made?

I went through one book named “The Learnings of The Glorious Quran” written by a Shia Professor named Misbah Yazdi. This book has been published by Islamic Propagation Organization of Tehran.

In his book, Mr. Yazdi has elaborated 10 stages of Tawhid. The 3rd stage is Tawhid in Genetic Lordship. He used the term “genetic” to mean “natural”, “phenomenological”, or “cosmological”. As I thought the term “genetic” might be more confusing, I used the term “cosmic”. It may be a wrong choice of mine, but I guess you have got the exact idea by now.

He discussed the issue of Genetic Guardianship of the Imams in relation to Genetic Lordship of God. According him:

1. The belief that, created beings can exercise Genetic Guardianship without God’s permission is polytheism.

2. But God granted power to the Imams to affect the world of phenomenon. That is, they do it with God’s permission. Such belief, besides not being polytheism at all, is actually the very monotheism itself; and to deny it is to deny the Koran.

This is the DEEP philosophical understanding of Genetic Lordship of God and Genetic Guardianship of the Imams by 12er Shiaism. This is where “Ya Ali Madad” springs up from. IF this understanding of Tawhid is correct, THEN “Ya Ali Madad” is in full consonance with Tawhid.

--------------------

The Arsh of God is the centre of Power and Knowledge of God. The angels are holding the Arsh-Power. The Imams are holding the Arsh-Knowledge. The angels are obedient to the Imams by God’s command (remember that Angels prostrated before Adam by God’s command, and the destiny of Satan). So you may, now, very well understand what is what.

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This is the DEEP philosophical understanding of Genetic Lordship of God and Genetic Guardianship of the Imams by 12er Shiaism. This is where “Ya Ali Madad” springs up from. IF this understanding of Tawhid is correct, THEN “Ya Ali Madad” is in full consonance with Tawhid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(salam)

Thank you brother for your very good post :) :) :) :)

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(bismillah)

The word genetic as discribed in a dictionary:

ge·net·ic (j-ntk) or ge·net·i·cal (--kl)

adj.

1.Of or relating to genetics or genes.

2. Affecting or affected by genes, as a disorder or deficiency.

3.Of, relating to, or influenced by the origin or development of something; ontogenic.

Genetic Lordship of God and Genetic Guardianship of the Imams by 12er Shiaism

As a human we are ristricted to use and expression by a language we understand or communicate in, genetic can be termed as Orign too, so if I interperate your statement, then the Imams came in to being from Allah Himself, that they are Part of his noor, thus it further translate in to the claim similar to made by christianty "HOLY TRINITY" and here we have entered the helm of a different topic to debate "TAWHEED" for which I am not yet prepared. So for now let us stay on course with the topic at hand, "ARSH"

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(bismillah)

I was waiting for a more educative response as it appear that there is no one on this board to carry on the debate, I will conclude from the following quote that all shia agree on it:

The Arsh of God is the centre of Power and Knowledge of God. The angels are holding the Arsh-Power. The Imams are holding the Arsh-Knowledge. The angels are obedient to the Imams by God’s command (remember that Angels prostrated before Adam by God’s command, and the destiny of Satan). So you may, now, very well understand what is what.

This whole concept is full of contradiction even if I be permitted to say refute the hadiths of Imams[rta] who are on record:

Al-Shafi / Al-Kafi

Page#146 Book of Al-Hujjat Vol:II

Narrator Narrates: Imam Jaffar Sadiq[AS]: "O Abu Yahya, the nights of friday are great" I asked why is that? Imam said: " All the dead prophets, Wasies and this Wasi who is sitting in front of you their spirits go toward skies and when they reach Arsh, in front of Allah and for weeks make tawaf and pray two Rakat in front of each leg of Arsh and then return towards their bodies, all the prohets and wasies are happy and this wasi bring forth morning and gains lot of new knowldge"

Time friday night spiritual journey begins towards a destination "ARSH" in front of Allah [in presence of some thing physical]. which result in activity of "TAWAF" to go around, a object has to be present in physical form, then before returning from the station prayers are established before "EACH LEG" this mean that there are more than one leg. Yes Imam does says that because of this pilgrimage he gains further knowledge, but nowhere does he says "ARSH" is knowledge it self and that he comands "ARSH=KNOWLEDGE".

Actually Imam is physically discribing the "ARSH" where Allah is present, which mean that Imam does see Allah on "ARSH" a physical attribute to Allah which shia belief reject.

I will discontinue the discourse here.

Thank you

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Where you are making mistake is that you are confusing things together, in the verse, "then he raised Himself on Arsh", we cannot say that this means some physical thing, which will mean we are attributing a body to Allah, which is wrong. And in those verses where "haamilaan-e-arsh" are mentioned as eight, so they cannot hold Allah's Knowledge, so in the first case Arsh is used in metaphorical sence i.e. it mean knowledge, and in second case it is used in literal sence. That is the reason why we have two kinds of ahadith supporting both meanings.

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(salam) Brother mobeen

1. The belief that, created beings can exercise Genetic Guardianship without God’s permission is polytheism.

2. But God granted power to the Imams to affect the world of phenomenon. That is, they do it with God’s permission. Such belief, besides not being polytheism at all, is actually the very monotheism itself; and to deny it is to deny the Koran.

I find nothing wrong with this.. IF God grants someone power over, lets say, Qom-e-Jin (Hint Hint), to perform their duties.. I can't say that that particular someone is a part of God.. where is the concept of Holy Trinity or any other christian belief coming in here?? The words 'Genetic Guardianship' is NOT used in the second point.. the second nullifies the first. :)

And brother mobeen, I have heard very frequently, from many MANY members of this board, that sunniism is based on 'love' not hate.. I don't see it in your post when you are degrading the intellect of the members of this board. People need to do some research when they have to post. Give them some time. :)

Wassalaam (Peace be upon you all)

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(bismillah) (salam)

Taken from Tafsir of Ayat al Kursi:

http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/Volume4/Baqarah65.asp

NOTE: A lot talks about the Kursi as well as the Arsh - but this helps in the understanding of what the Arsh is.

al-'Ayyashi narrates in his at-Tafsir from as-Sadiq (a.s.) "Abu Dhaka said: 'O Messenger of Allah! What is the best of that which has been revealed to you?' He said: 'The verse of the "Chair". The seven heavens and the seven earths in the "Chair" are but like a ring thrown in a vast open space.' Then he said: 'And surely the excellence of al-'Arsh (the Throne) over the chair is like that of the open space over the ring.' "

Zurarah said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the words of Allah: His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth - whether the heavens and the earth encompass the Chair or the Chair extends over the heavens and the earth? He said: 'Verily, every thing is in the Chair.' " (al-Kafi)

Hafs ibn al-Ghiyath said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the words of Allah: His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth. He said: 'His knowledge.' " (Ma'ani 'l-akhbar)

Hannan said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the Throne and the Chair. He replied: 'Verily, the Throne has many diverse attributes. Allah uses in the Qur'an various adjectives to describe its various aspects. He says: the Lord of the great Throne (9:129). It means; Lord of the great kingdom or authority. And He says: The Beneficent (God) on the Throne is firm (20:5). It means that He is firm in His kingdom. And it is the knowledge of the "how" of the things. Also, the Throne, although together with it, is distinct from the Chair; because they are two of the greatest doors of the unseen, and they both are unseen. And they are together in the unseen, because the Chair is the manifest door of the un­seen, from which appears creation and from which all the things come. And the Throne is the concealed door of the unseen in which is found the knowledge of the states, conditions and exist­ence; of measure and limit; of will and intention; as well as the knowledge of words, actions and omissions, and the knowledge of the beginning and the return. Thus, the two are two gates of knowledge joined together, because the dominion of the Throne is other than the dominion of the Chair, and its (the Throne's) knowledge is more hidden than the knowledge of the Chair. That is why Allah said, "the Lord of the great Throne"; that is, its attribute is greater than that of the Chair, and both are joined in it.' " (Hannan says) "I said: 'May I be your ransom, then why did it become associated with the Chair in excellence?' He (the Imam) said: It was associated with it because the knowledge of the state and condition is found in it. And in it are found the manifest doors of al-bada' (the decree hidden from other); as well as its reality and the dimensions of its joining and separating. Therefore, they are two neighbors, one of which contains the other in itself. And by similitude are turned those who know, and so that they may offer proof for the truth of their claims. Because He chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and He is the Mighty, the Powerful.' " (at-Tawhid)

as-Sadiq (as.) said, inter alia, in a tradition: "Every thing which Allah has created is in the receptacle of the Chair, except His Throne, because that is too great for the Chair to encompass." (al-Ihtijaj )

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(bismillah)

"Al-Shafi"/"Al-Kafi"

On Page # 244 Book O f Tawheed Vol: 1

There is no one narrating it, is simply stated that a Jew is asking some question to Ammeer ul momineen Ali [AS] To one of jews Question Ammeer ul momineen[AS] answers " ARSH mean the creatures/creation of Allah"

On page#247 Book of Tawheed Vol: 1

Safwaan Bin Yahya Narrates" Abu Quraah Mohidaas requested me to get him some time to meet Imam Raza [AS] .............Abu Quraah asked a question to Imam who said that "ARSH is name of Allah's Knowledge and his powers'

I have Quote from three different Imams and each has a different take on the meaning of "ARSH"

Hannan said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the Throne and the Chair. He replied: 'Verily, the Throne has many diverse attributes

The first Hadith quoted by me is different in the explaination by Imam Jafar[rta] as claimed by the member here^, in the hadith from Al Kafi Imam is very specific where he goes every friday night and the benifits of that nights, he discirbes the physical dimensions fo the place. " TAWAF" "EACH LEG" "Allah IN FRONT"

So if our tendencies is to agree with all these variations of the "ARSH" then what the stand be? what the belief be? what the faith be?

I think the discourse should end here. As in my humble opinion the ample case has been made that there is a variation in the beliefs as to what "ARSH" is in shia school of thought.

Edited by mobeen
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(bismillah)  (salam)

Taken from Tafsir of Ayat al Kursi:

http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/Volume4/Baqarah65.asp

NOTE: A lot talks about the Kursi as well as the Arsh - but this helps in the understanding of what the Arsh is.

al-'Ayyashi narrates in his at-Tafsir from as-Sadiq (a.s.) "Abu Dhaka said: 'O Messenger of Allah! What is the best of that which has been revealed to you?' He said: 'The verse of the "Chair". The seven heavens and the seven earths in the "Chair" are but like a ring thrown in a vast open space.' Then he said: 'And surely the excellence of al-'Arsh (the Throne) over the chair is like that of the open space over the ring.' "

Zurarah said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the words of Allah: His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth - whether the heavens and the earth encompass the Chair or the Chair extends over the heavens and the earth? He said: 'Verily, every thing is in the Chair.' " (al-Kafi)

Hafs ibn al-Ghiyath said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the words of Allah: His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth. He said: 'His knowledge.' " (Ma'ani 'l-akhbar)

Hannan said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the Throne and the Chair. He replied: 'Verily, the Throne has many diverse attributes. Allah uses in the Qur'an various adjectives to describe its various aspects. He says: the Lord of the great Throne (9:129). It means; Lord of the great kingdom or authority. And He says: The Beneficent (God) on the Throne is firm (20:5). It means that He is firm in His kingdom. And it is the knowledge of the "how" of the things. Also, the Throne, although together with it, is distinct from the Chair; because they are two of the greatest doors of the unseen, and they both are unseen. And they are together in the unseen, because the Chair is the manifest door of the un­seen, from which appears creation and from which all the things come. And the Throne is the concealed door of the unseen in which is found the knowledge of the states, conditions and exist­ence; of measure and limit; of will and intention; as well as the knowledge of words, actions and omissions, and the knowledge of the beginning and the return. Thus, the two are two gates of knowledge joined together, because the dominion of the Throne is other than the dominion of the Chair, and its (the Throne's) knowledge is more hidden than the knowledge of the Chair. That is why Allah said, "the Lord of the great Throne"; that is, its attribute is greater than that of the Chair, and both are joined in it.' " (Hannan says) "I said: 'May I be your ransom, then why did it become associated with the Chair in excellence?' He (the Imam) said: It was associated with it because the knowledge of the state and condition is found in it. And in it are found the manifest doors of al-bada' (the decree hidden from other); as well as its reality and the dimensions of its joining and separating. Therefore, they are two neighbors, one of which contains the other in itself. And by similitude are turned those who know, and so that they may offer proof for the truth of their claims. Because He chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and He is the Mighty, the Powerful.' " (at-Tawhid)

as-Sadiq (as.) said, inter alia, in a tradition: "Every thing which Allah has created is in the receptacle of the Chair, except His Throne, because that is too great for the Chair to encompass." (al-Ihtijaj )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

beautiful!

Mobeen honeslty, there is your answer, that is if u came here to know our view and not just to argue

Allah uses in the Qur'an various adjectives to describe its various aspects.

then goes on to give the best explanation!

here u explain how none of the following three verses conflict with each other or with tawheed by your hadiths or explanation of your uluma

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