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In the Name of God بسم الله

wasila - the reality

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alisaahil

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(salam)

i want this to be the final debate on wasila, with all questions answered

an article at

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/tawassul/en/index.php

answers a lot of questions, still there are some which remain

i have posted them on answering ansar as well, and i post them here as well

the qoutes in it show text taken from AA's article whose link is given above

i advise anyone who wants to reply to first read original article at ansar.org, (available at answering ansar as well on the above link) , then read AA's answer to it , then my reply and then answer the questions i post. thank you! i hope it will really help me!

However, Allah created secondary causes and means as He has encouraged us in the Holy Quran to use assistance. In Chapter AL-Ma-Idah Allah (SWT) tells those who believe: “بتغوا الیﻩ الوسیلﻩ یا یﻩا الذین امنوا اتقوا اللﻩ وا”. “Oh you who believe! Fear Allah and seek the means of approach to Him, and strive hard in His way, that haply you may have success” (5:35).

many people reject the above meaning of means of approach as bieng the masoomeen, they take it to mean good deeds, on one of the nasibi web sites, this was posted:

أفضل التوسل عند علي

روى الشيعة عن علي بن أبي طالب أنه قال « أفضل ما توسل به المتوسلون الإيمان بالله ورسوله والجهاد في سبيله وكلمة الإخلاص.. وإقام الصلاة وإيتاء الزكاة»..................

SOURCES FOR THIS HADEETHS FROM RAFIDAH BOOKS

(نهج البلاغة 163 من لا يحضره الفقيه1/205 وسائل الشيعة1/25 و9/396 و16/288 12/345 بحار الأنوار56/21 و66/386 و71/410 الأمالي216 علل الشرائع 1/247).

Best Means of Approach to Allah. From Nahjul Balagha.

Sermon 163:

"The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace. "

OTHER RAFIDI SOURCES WITH SAME HADEETHS

(Nahjul Balagha 163, Mein La-Yahzurho Al-Faqeeh 1/205, Wasael Al-Shia 1/25 and 9/396 and 16/288 and 12/345, Bihaar Al-Anwar 65/21 and 66/386 and 71/410, Al-Amalee 216, A'laal Al-Shra'ea 1/247)

الدعاء هو العبادة

عن أبي جعفر قال " إن أفضل العبادة الدعاء " (الكافي 2/338 كتاب الدعاء باب فضل الدعاء والحث عليه).

Invocation is Worship

Abu Ja'far Said: "The best form of worship is Invocation" (Al-Kafi 2/338 Book of Invocation, Chapter: The importance of Invocation and insistence on it)

سئل أبو جعفر: " أي العبادة أفضل؟ فقال: ما من شيء أفضل عند الله عز وجل من أن يسأل" (الكافي 2/338 كتاب الدعاء باب فضل الدعاء والحث عليه ).

Abu Ja'far asked: "Which form of worship is best?" Then himself said (answered): "There is nothing better in sight of Allah the glorified he be, then supplication to him. (Al-Kafi 2/338 Book of Invocation, Chapter: The importance of Invocation and insistence on it)

عن أبي عبد الله " الدعاء هو العبادة " (الكافي 2/339 كتاب الدعاء باب فضل الدعاء والحث عليه).

Abu Abdullah said: "Invocation is Worship" (Al-Kafi 2/339 Book of Invocation, Chapter: The importance of Invocation and insistence on it)

i have now two questions :

1) what is the reality of this nasibi literature?

2)once an aaalim said the same thing as posted on answering ansar, that Allah created secondary causes and means, he gave some examples from quranic ayats, like "hum nay in logo k haath may shifa rakhi hai" and others, i dont remeber them, can u plz give me refrences and other such ayat where God says he has delegated the "giving power"

When you tell your clergy to pray for you, you know

in your heart that the clergy cannot do anything unless Allah (SWT) wants for it to happen, but

you believe since he is a man of worship and spends more of his time in the way of Allah, his

prayer might get accepted faster.

most wahabis dont beleive this

there first question is "what is the need of making wasila? Cant God listen to us directly? if he can, what can stop HIM from bestowing upon us? his powers are limitless."

even if u somehow prove that wasila was needed, for example in 4:64, and in 12:97-98 etc, or when u say that God made Hazrat Ali helper of Prophet and we can call him for help, they say that those people who were called in for help were alive, for example, Prophet being alive in 4:64, hz yusuf etc in 12:97-98 and hz ALI (as) in Prophet's lifetime

now these people are dead. if u ask a living person to help u he can help in "physical aspects"(eg give u drink of water if u ask for it, or hz ALI saving the Prophet on numerous occasions) or "by praying for u"(in 4:64, 12:97-98)

so.........

a)the dead cant help u in both these aspects: i)they cant help u physically having no body presence ii)they cant pray for u, they cant hear (when we argue that the prophet can listen to salaam said to him, they say it is becz God has ordered us to salaam him)

b)if u want spiritual gains (eg, i pray for passing in exams) u can do so directly to God

On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with” (20:109)
The above mentioned verses and many other ayats/verses in Quran encourage the practice of tawassul, but only if its to the right people and to the chosen people by Allah (SWT).

another question asked by these wahabis is:

ok fine, even if in spiritual gains, dead can be a wasila, who are we to decide whom to make wasila? the ayats u present further strengthens their saying. they say God can give us through any wasila. why should we say k Oh God give us through ALI or give us THROUGH HUSSAIN. if God needs to give through a wasila, he will chose one Himself

plus the wordings, we say YA ALI MADAD, while beleive that the real giver is God, and without God's help or will, even ALI cant help or give gains. so why not say Oh God! Madad (through ALI) . when we say YA ALI MADAD, a)how can dead help? b)if its God help routed through ALI, why take ALI's name and not directly ask God, when wasila is even optional? c)incase of (b) again, why limit God's power (nauzobillah) and why say k Give only through ALI? what if God gives through some one else? by saying YA ALI MADAD, are we implying to God that oh God, if u give thru some else, we wont accept the help?

Now, if a Prophet (as) can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can’t I seek help from Rasulullah (s) who was the talking Qur’an, or from Maula Ali (as) who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book?

the individual was alive, the prophet was alive, hz ali was alive

(dont give me that stuff that shaheed are always alive, that is not a valid argument) so how to prove that invoking these dead is still allowed and logical in case of asking physical help? (or spiritual help for that matter)

just one last thing:

allama talib johri, during his majalis in moharram mentioned that all religions beleive in oneness of God, he cited the hindus saying that they beleive God to be one and say that we have created these idols as means of intercession b/w us and God. at that time i remembered a wahabi saying that Gandhi once said to Jinnah :"hum may aap may bass itna farq hai k hum kharay huon say mangtay hien aur aap laytay houn asy" (there is just one difference b/w u and us, we ask from those who are standing [idols] and u ask from those who are lying down [the dead])

it does sound like a similarity, the difference being they use idols, lifeless and created by their own hands, and we use dead, lifeless but created by the hands of God. the wahabis dont beleive in Prophet or masoomeen from being a part of Noor, and hence wont ever beleive that seeking help from prophet before his birth or after his death is valid and will out rightly reject such ahadith and will also reject the qoutes of hanafi, ahmadi etc saying that we dont care what "misguided" sunnnis do, they can call ghaus for help or call Prophet for help, but for us wahabis; both is shirk.

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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Sermon 163:

I have read the Sermon 163 from Nehjul Balagha at www.al-islam.org, but the above mentioned things are not there.

Here is the link;

http://al-islam.org/nahj/163.htm

=====================

Anyhow, lets see about what is reffered to Mawla Ali (as) on Wasila

"The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace. "

Shia do believe these things to be Wasila

It is very strange that Nasibies quoting it against Shias in order to prove their point.

Indeed Shias already do believe all these acts to be becoming our Waseela of salvation. Wahabies could have made such statement if we had ever denied these things to be our Wasila of Salvation.

Result: Shias do not deny these things to be our WASILA. (and we strive hard to get these Wasilas).

But We also believe the following thing to be Wasila too (while Wahabies deny them and making Halal Blessing of Allah to be Haram, which is Biddah of Misguidance):

- Dua/Shafaat/Tabarukkat of Rasool Allah (saw) in our Favour is also best kind of Wasila, which increases the chance of acceptance of Duas to Allah.

Allah says in Qur'an:

وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

[Yusuf Ali 4:64] ...... If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

You see, indeed the Shafaat of Rasool Allah (saw) is also a Waseela for getting near Allah.

Quran Mentioned One More Wasila, which Wahabies Deny

Allah (swt) tells us that Angels and Prophets of lower Status are seeking the Wasila of those prophets and Angels who are heigher than them in Rank.

أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَى رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ كَانَ مَحْذُورًا {57}

[shakir 17:57] Those whom they call upon (i.e. Jesus, Marry, Angels etc.), themselves seek the means of access to their Lord-- whoever of them is nearest-- and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement;

- Firstly, see that it is Quran which is confirming that these Prophets and Angels of heigher Rank are also Wasila of getting nearness to Allah.

- Secondly, see that these both types of prophets (i.e. lower rank and heigher rank prophets) both have already passed away from this world. This means that alive or dead makes no difference.

Note: Wahabies have tried their best to distort the translation of this verse. One Shia brother did comprehensive discussion on this verse and proved the Wahabi translation to be completely false.

I have reproduced his arguments about this verse at:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...ic=49081&st=75#

This is a challange to Wahabies to prove that their translation to be correct in light of these arguments.

================================

Quran Confirms that Angels are also our Wasila, while they intercede us by the permission of Allah

This again a type of Waseela, which Wahabies deny on the bases of their self made Tauheed.

While Quran is very clear on this subject:

وَكَم مِّن مَّلَكٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ لَا تُغْنِي شَفَاعَتُهُمْ شَيْئًا إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ أَن يَأْذَنَ اللَّهُ لِمَن يَشَاء وَيَرْضَى {26}

[shakir 53:26] And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses.

=================================

Tabarukkat of Rasool Allah (saw) is also our Waseela in fullfilling our needs

Again contrary to Shias, Wahabies again deny it to be Waseela.

There are tens of Ahadith on this issue.

I will post them tomorrow (and also answer to remaining allegations). Insha Allah. And then we ask Wahabies how dare they to not to include tabarrukat of Rasool Allah (saw) for not being included into Waseela.

At moment I have to urgently need for my bed as I am not even able to type correctly at moment and 90% sleeping. :)

Was Salam.

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I have read the Sermon 163 from Nehjul Balagha at www.al-islam.org, but the above mentioned things are not there.

... Dua/Shafaat/Tabarukkat of Rasool Allah (saw) in our Favour is also best kind of Wasila, which increases the chance of acceptance of Duas to Allah.

Sermon 110:

"The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace. "

Edited by Student
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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Sermon 163:

I have read the Sermon 163 from Nehjul Balagha at www.al-islam.org, but the above mentioned things are not there.

Here is the link;

http://al-islam.org/nahj/163.htm

salam sister

i have najhul balagah in front of me now and im flipping pages to sermon 163 and its got nothing to do with the sermon pasted by the nasibies :huh: its a dialogue with uthman ^_^ or am i wrong :wacko: ?

wa salam

Edited by SLAVE_OF_ALLAH
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(bismillah)

(salam)

There are many "wasilas" (ie Means) which will get us closer to Allah(swt).

There is a hadeeth which says :

"The number of ways to Allah(swt) are as much as the number of breaths of people"

Count how many breathes there are, infinite and that's the number of ways to Allah(swt).

But why not take the shortcut and the Closest means to Allah(swt) !? It's normal to do so ;)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful." Holy Quran[5:35]

alQaadi alNa`maan in Sharhil Akhbaar, Volume 1, Page 141 says:

Narrated from Masrooq, he said :I entered on Aisha and she asked me :"Oh Masrooq, I will ask you about something so pleast answer my question"

Masrooq said :"Ask Oh Mother about that which you like"

Aisha asked :" alMukhadaj, who killed him ?"

Masrooq said :" Ali the son of Abu Talib"

Aisha asked :" And where did He(ie Ali) kill him (ie alMukhadaj) ?"

Masrooq replied :" On a river whose upper part is called Tamara and it's lower part alNahrawaan"

Aisha exclaimed :" May Allah curse fulaan (meaning Omar ibn alAaas) for telling me that he (Ie Omar) killed alMukhadaj on the river of Egypt"

Masrooq :" Oh Mother, i ask you by Allah and by his Messenger and by me that you tell me what you have heard from the Messener of Allah(pbuh&hf) about them (ie people of Nahrawaan) !"

Aisha said :" I heard the Prophet say about them (ie people of Nahrawaan):

They are the worst of creation and characters, they will be killed by the best of of creation and characters and the closest of means to Allah"

then Masrooq brought 50 people and they witnessed that Ali(as) was the one who killed the Khawarij @ alNahrawaan.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,

Kumail :)

Edited by kumail
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i have najhul balagah in front of me now and im flipping pages to sermon 163 and its got nothing to do with the sermon pasted by the nasibies :huh: its a dialogue with uthman  ^_^  or am i wrong  :wacko: ?

wa salam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sermon 110

-------------------------------------------

(bismillah)

There are many "wasilas" (ie Means) which will get us closer to Allah(swt).

But why not take the shortcut and the Closest means to Allah(swt) !? It's normal to do so ;)

Sermon 110:

"The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace. "

Edited by Student
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can we move on please, we are just discussing one thing, the sermon. whether it was or not

one thing that zainabia said, we dont deny that good actions are a wasila, but we dont say they are the only wasila, can we elaborate more on it? and what abt the other issues?

are these too tough to be answered ????

plz, i need help and its sort of urgent

thanking you all once again

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(salam)

in other words, imam ali (as) said that obedience to Allah is a wasilah.

pray, fast, hajj, zakat, iman, etc.

of course, we are required to do these acts and hold these faiths, and these themselves are the best means, because without these means, there will be NO salvation.

its like saying to your employee: "do what you are told to do and then you'll do well"

of course, there is no denying that if we do what we are told in the Quran, then we will get reward. Every good act, every good thought has its reward, so obviously that act is a means by which we get closer to Allah.

but then there are those means which are there other than what we are obliged to do to escape from hell.

eg. back to the employee scenario, the employee knows that he will need to have a good relationship with his superiors, not just the managin director, to succeed in gaining respect in eyes of manager. of course he knows that doing what he is ment to do to the best of his ability will get him respect and rewards, but he also knows that using other means is necessary too.

of course theres no point of seaking those other means without even doing the tasks he is meant to do, as the superiors will shrug him off seeing that he is useless at his job. if he doesnt do what he's meant to do, then he wont even be working there in the near future.

its not a perfect analogy to imam ali 's (as) words, but it sort of explains how our obedience to the teachings of islam is paramount to everything else, and no other intercession is accepted without belief in tawheed, nabuwwah, salah, sawm, hajj, jihad, zakat etc etc

this is our first crucial step, then we have ahlul bait as the intercessors, keeping in mind that their love is also important in all our acts and beliefs

so loving ahlul bait itself is a means to salvation and nearness to Allah

on top of this, who is so proud to think they can get their desired intercession without calling upon the rasool (pbuh) and his ahlul bait (as) as a wasila?

after doing all these ibadat and worships, obedience and faith, it will be an act of humility to not think they are enough, and to seek intercession thru the awliya-Allah

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Good deeds are means for your every want...from shia source.

the holy prophet (p.b.u.h.) said: " shall i not lead you to a

weapon which saves you from your enemies, and increases your sustenance

(abundantly) " they answered him positively. then he said: " call your

lord both in night and day, because supplication is the armour of a

believer."

imam sadiq (a.s.) has narrated from amir-ul-mu'mineen ali

(a.s.) who said: " supplication is the shield of a believer; whenever you

knock on a door very much, it will be opened for you."

al-'usul-min-al-kafi, vol. 2, p. 468

`abdullah-ibn-sanan says that he heard that imam s¤adiq (a.s.)

said: " try to pray very much because it is the key of Allah's forgiveness and

the means of obtaining any want. there are some blessings and graces with

Allah that reaching them is impossible but via supplication. and, do know

that any door which you knock it will finally be opened."

al-'usul-men-al-kafi, vol. 2, p. 468

once, someone went to imam amir-ul-mu'mineen ali (a.s.) and

complained about why his supplications were not answered though

Allah had said: "...call upon me, i will answer you,..." (sura

al-mu'min, no. 40, verse 60).

in answer to that question, the holy imam said: " your hearts

(minds) have acted treacherously toward eight characteristics, (so, your

supplications are not answered):

1- you have known Allah but you have not paid his right such

that has been enjoined upon you. therefore, your cognition does not

benefit you anything.

2- you have believed in his messenger while thereafter, you have

opposed his sunnah. you are in his religion, then, where is the fruit of

your faith?

3- surely you have recited his revealed book but you do not act

accordingly. and, you said: " we have heard and we obey ", whereas you

opposed it then.

4- you say you fear the fire (of hell), while you always commit

your own sins, and you approach it thereby; then, where is your fear?

5- you say you are eager and interested in heaven (the divine

reward) but you always do some things which send you away from it; so,

where is that inclination that you have to it 

6- verily, you eat the blessing of Allah but you do not show

gratitude about it.

7- certainly Allah has ordered you to be the enemy of satan, and

he has said: " surely the satan is your enemy, so take him for an

enemy;...". (sura fat¤ir, no. 35, verse 6). verbally you claim that you

are his enemy but actually you make friends with satan without

opposing him.

8- you have put the faults of people before your eyes and your

own ones at your backs. then, what supplication of yours can be

answered for you with this case that you yourselves have closed its

doors? so, fear Allah and improve your deeds, purify your intentions,

and enjoin right and forbid wrong. it is in this case that Allah answers

you your supplications."

this expressive tradition clearly says: the promise of Allah to

answer supplications is a conditioned promise, not an absolute one. it is

conditioned that you fulfil your promises and covenants, too; whereas

you have broken promises in eight ways. so, if you put an end to this

breach of promise, your call will be answered.

practising upon the foregoing eight instructions which are, in fact,

the conditions of supplications to be answered, is enough for training

man and employing his faculties alongside a productive and fruitful

path.

bihar-ul-anwar, vol. 93, p. 276

SERMON 77

Supplications of Amir al-mu'minin.

O' my Allah! Forgive me what Thou knowest about me more than I do. If I return (to the sins) Thou return to forgiveness. My Allah forgive me what I had promised to myself but Thou didst not find its fulfilment with me. My Allah forgive me that with what I sought nearness to Thee with my tongue but my heart opposed and did not perform it. My Allah forgive me winkings of the eye, vile utterances, desires of the heart and errors of speech.

http://nahjulbalagha.org/SermonDetail.php?Sermon=109

The Best Means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Allah calls invocation worship

And your Lord says: “Call on Me, I will answer your prayer.” Verily! Those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!” (Surat Ghafir 40:60)

Allah warning his slaves not to invoke anyone besides Him

Verily, those whom you Call upon besides Allah are slaves like you. So Call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful. (Surat Al-A’raf 7:194)

If you Invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your Call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your association. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All-Knower. (Surat Fatir 35:14)

**********

The only verse some people bring to defend their case against 10s of clear verses tellings us to invoke Allah alone. And the verse is 17:56-57 and they say that its a proof for asking people of higher ranks for assistance. Infact thats a big lie cause you can go and open the book of Allah and search for a single verse where prophets called other prophets names in time of need.

Now back to the verse....

Those whom they call upon (Jesus and angels...etc.), desire (for themself) means of access to their Lord, as to which of them should be the nearest (i.e. compete in coming closer to Allah); and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of. (Qur'an 17:56-57)

Lets examine this verse closely. It has two parts.

I) Seeking means of approach

We have already discussed this in above examples i.e. is good deeds are means of approach.

II) Which one should be nearest to Allah.

Not only the Prophets use to compete in good deeds but even every pious slave of Allah also competed in performing good deeds to get nearer to Allah.

And those Foremost (in Faith) will be Foremost (in the Hereafter). These will be those Nearest to Allah:

(56:10-11)

فاستجبنا له ووهبنا له يحيى وأصلحنا له زوجه إنهم كانوا يسارعون في الخيرات ويدعوننا رغبا ورهبا وكانوا لنا خاشعين.

So We answered his (Prophet Dhun-Nun) Call, and We bestowed upon him Yahya, and cured his wife (to bear a child) for him. Verily, they used to hasten on to do good deeds, and they used to call on US (Allah) with hope and fear, and used to humble themselves before US (Allah)

(21:90)

Comment: Allah said that he answered his call and calls of other prophets and messengers and then says the reason for the answer of their prayer…, they (prophets and messengers) used to hasten on to do good deeds, and they (prophets and messengers) used to call on US (Allah) with hope and fear, and used to humble themselves before US (Allah).

يؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر ويأمرون بالمعروف وينهون عن المنكر ويسارعون في الخيرات وأولئك من الصالحين.

They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Mar'uf and forbid Munkar; and they hasten in (all) good works;... (3:114)

أولئك يسارعون في الخيرات وهم لها سابقون.

It is these who hasten in good deeds, and they are foremost in them. (23:61)

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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Axiom, you again quoted the wrong Salafi translation of verse 17:57, which they distorted in order to defend their self made Aqeeda about Waseela.

Look again at your translation.

Now back to the verse....

Those whom they call upon (Jesus and angels...etc.), desire (for themself) means of access to their Lord, as to which of them should be the nearest (i.e. compete in coming closer to Allah); and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of. (Qur'an 17:56-57)

This is the most bogus translation that I have ever seen.

Now look at my comments on the right translation of this verse (which I posted to Abeer and gave you the link in my first post).

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Abeer, if you closely see the translations that you provided, you will see the Differences in themselves.  I have also compared a lot of Urdu Translations (even many from Deoband), and all of them have translated the way that Shakir did.

Same translation you will find in English version of Kanzul Iman (Barailvi).

Here I am adding the translation by Shabbir Ahmad Uthmani, who is one of the most famous Deobandi Scholar.

11.gif

So you can see all these Ulama are doing the same translation as Shakir did.

Also Sarwar did it the same way.

And also Allama Tabatabai said the same thing.

================

Now as I have proved you that all these calssical Ulama have translated it this way, you cannot deny that there is NO DIFFERENCE in its translation.

Indeed there is a BIG difference. You have to accept that only ONE side is correct in its translation.

Therefore, we dont have any other way to find out which translation is correct, except than looking at Arabic.  So, I invite you to do see the Arabic Text itself and find out who is correct.

First Thing to Note for Arabic

So: the word "ay" means which or sometimes who. "hum" means them. "aqrab" means closest. Therefore, the best translation is "which of them are closest."

This is what Allamah Tabatabai says about it in Al-Mizan:

"The meaning - and Allah knows best - is that those whom the polythests pray to from the angels and jins and human beings are themselves seeking that which bring them closer to their Lord, seeking to know who is the closest from them."

Second important thing:

In Arabic there is no "Future" or "Prsesnt" or "Past" tenses, but there is only "Completed Action" and "Not-Completed Actions"

If we compare this to English, then it is like this:

Completed Action: It includes "Past Tense", "Present Simple" and "Present Perfect Tense" (examples are "I have done my work" , "It is my bed" "They are my friends" etc.)

Not Completed Actions: It included "Present Contineous Tense" and "Future Tense" examples are "We shall be succeeded", "He is reading"

And Quran used the grammar of "Completed Action" in " Ayyuhum Aqrabu" (please see my 2nd previous detailed post on this issue of grammar once again).

===================

If these 2 things are clear to you, then I challange you to prove the following translations to be correct to me.

Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D. and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan:

"Those whom they call upon, desire means of access to their Lord, as to which of them should be the nearest

Comment: He is using the wrong Grammar of "Non Completed Action"

Show me where Allah (swt) used "Should be" in أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ

Maulvi Sher Ali:

"Those, whom they call on, themselves, seek nearness to their Lord - even those of them who are nearest -

ٰInstead of "Who/Which", he changed it to "Even". Now show me where Allah (swt) used the word "Even" in أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ

Exact translation remains the same "which of them is nearest"

(Please also note, Sher Ali used "Are near" instead of "Is near", which is again wrong, as "Are near" is translation of ایھم اقربون and not of ایھم اقرب which is singular).

Dr. T.B.Irving:

"Even those whom they appeal to, crave access to their Lord, vying to nearest. They hope for His mercy and fear His torment. Your Lo torment is something to beware of."

Quran used no word like vying etc.

Secondly, "Vying" is not a "Completed Action" and thus it is wrong (vying shows "Present Continues i.e. an action which still continues).

Again a challange to prove that this translation is correct.

As compared to these translations, Shakir used the very right words according to Arabic Grammar. It is a challange to prove that his translation is wrong according to Arabic grammar.

So, stop twisting the Quranic Verses according to your wishes, and first of all tell us how these Angels and Prophets of lower rank are seeking the Wasilah of these heigh rank prophets and angels.

In my next post, I will show you the Wasila that Sahaba sought beside their good deeds.

(to be continued). Insha-Allah.

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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Brother Student, you wrote:

Sermon 110:

"The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet,.........

firstly, thanks for giving the exact number of Sermon.

You see brother that before coming to conclusion, one must take into consideration the whole Quran and All Ahadith on that subject.

For example, in quran Allah mentioned many times that کفی ھاللاہ ولیا I am sufficient as Wali۔

ؓBut in this same quran, same Allah is telling us that along with Allah, His Prophet is also our Walli, and also those Momineen who give Zakat in state of Raku. (Similarly Quran also tells that Jibrael, Angels and Saleh Momineen are also Walli of Rasool Allah (saw) if his wives doesnt repent)......... (please read whole article of "Salafi Disease of Literalism" at www.answering-ansar.org

If this thing is clear to you, then also note that Quran and Authentic Hadith can never contradict each other, but they explain each other.

And as I have proven it above that Quran makes if Very Clear that Angels and Prophets of lower Rank are seeking the Wasila of those Prophets and Angels, who are heigher in rank than them.

You see, according to Ahadith, prophets are alive in their graves and worshipping (i.e. doing the acts of Wasilah as mentioned by Mawla Ali (as) and you have brought in our notice. But still Quran tells us that they are at the same time seeking the Wasilah of all those angels and prophets, who are heigher in rank.

This would be enough to show you how important it is to seek the Waseelah of these Saleh Prophets and Angels.

========================

Similarly, Quran also testifies that Angels do our intercession by the permission of Allah. And this intercession of Angels is also a Wasilah of getting near to Allah.

Now I question Wahabies, why do they deny this Wasilah of Angels, which has been approved by Allah Himself in Quran?????

As I earlier told, we believe in all these things, which have been revealed to us from our God, but they are Wahabies who deny one part of revelation, and declare that part of Sharia Haram, which has been made Halal upon them by Allah (swt). Indeed they are themselves the Misguided Innovators, not us.

===========================

Sahaba seeking the Wasila of Tabarukaat of Rasool Allah (saw), instead of making their good deeds as Wasila

Now if good deeds are the sole Wasila (as claimed by Wahabies), then why Sahaba doing the following acts??????

Example 1: Aisha and Isma bin Abi Bakr Seeking health against Diseases through Shirt of Rasool Allah (saw), instead of asking Allah Directly

Sahih Muslim, 1st Chapter of book of Clothing:

`Abd Allah, the freed slave of Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr, the maternal uncle of the son of `Ata’, said:

………. She (Asma bint Abu Bakr) said: “Here is the cloak (jubba) of Allah’s Messenger,” and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian cloth with a hem of (silk) brocade, and its sleeves bordered with (silk) brocade, and said:

“This was Allah’s Messenger’s cloak with `A’isha until she died, then I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah used to wear it, and we washed it for the sick so that they could seek cure thereby.”

· · Can anyone still deny the witnesses of Ummul Momineen Aisah and her sister Asma bint Abu Bakr that even the jubba of Rasool Allah [saww] was also able to benefit and cure the sick?

· · Did Ummul Momineen Hadhrat Aisah and her sister Sahabia Asma bint Abu Bakr made that jubba of Rasool Allah [saww], a partner to Allah by seeking benefit through it?

· · Why didn’t they asked Allah DIRECTLY for the cure from sicknesses?

· · Did they really sought help from that jubba in a Literal Sense that it had Absolute power to benefit them. Or they actually sought help from Allah, but from seeking help from jubba, they only meant that Barakah of Rasool Allah [saww] also includes in their request to Allah?

===========================

Example 2: Um Momineen Umm Salama seeking health through Wasila of Hair of Rasool Allah (saw), instead of asking Allah directly.

Bukhari narrates in his Sahih in the Book of Clothing, under the chapter entitled "What is mentioned about gray hair:

`Usman ibn `Abd Allah ibn Mawhab said:

"My family sent me to Umm Salama with a cup of water. Umm Salama brought out a silver bottle which contained one of the hairs of the Prophet, and it used to be that if anyone came under the evil eye or ill health they used to send her a cup of water through which she would pass this hair (for drinking). We used to look into the silver bottle: I saw some reddish hairs."

· · Can anyone still deny that Rasool Allah [saww] cannot benefit us?

· · Did Umm Salama became Mushrika for not asking Allah DIRECTLY for health against disease and protection against evil eye?

· · Can anyone deny the existence of Rule of ? (Salafies don’t deny it in case of Umm Salama and don’t label her a Mushrika, but do deny it in our case and issue the fatwa of shirk against us).

=======================

Well, I can quote more than hundred such Ahadith. But firstly I ask question to Wahabies:

----- WHY SAHABA FORGOT TO USE THEIR GOOD DEEDS AS WASILA FOR APPROACHING Allah, AND RAN BEHIND THESE TABARUKKAT, in order to make them their Wasila of fullfilling their Needs``????????

In last, I would like to quote the following Hadith:

Seeking the NEEDS through Hands of Rasool Allah (saw) by Sahabas, instead seeking Directly, or through their good Deeds

The first hadith Imam Ahmad related from Anas ibn Malik in his Musnad is:

"The whole Community of the people of Madina used to take the hand of the Prophet and rush to obtain their need with it."

Ahmad Musnad 3:98 #11947

Here is the Arabic Text of this hadith of Anas Ibn Malik:

مسند أحمد مسند باقي مسند المكثرين أنس بن مالك رضي الله عنه

حدثنا ‏ ‏هشيم ‏ ‏أنبأنا ‏ ‏حميد ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أنس بن مالك ‏ ‏قال ‏

إن كانت الأمة من أهل ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏لتأخذ بيد رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فتنطلق به في حاجتها

========================

Regarding Nehru and Jinnah

I wonder what Wahabies will do if Nehru had said what is the difference between us (Hindus) and Muslims, when:

- We seek help and benefit from non-living stones

- While Muslims also seek help and benefit from non-living things like hairs, shirt, nails, blanket, water of ablution, etc. of their Prophet????

I think than Wahabies must go and put all these Tabarukkat of Rasool Allah (saw) into fire (naudobillah), in order to satisfy Nehru that there is indeed difference.

And they should also go and break Hajar-e-Aswad into pieces (naudobillah), so that they may make Nehru satisfied.

But it will take some time, would be best if they first start shaving their LONG BEARDS, with which there is no difference between these Wahabi Mullahs and Sikh nation of India. :)

Was Salam.

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nice one zainabia! thnx indeed!!!

hoping others follow suit and post informative,useful replies, im waiting until some material gathers up and then will post a reply.......

untill then, hoping and wishing for the best!

may Allah help us all and bless u all(especially u zainabia) for nice clear replies.......

thank youuu all!

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I can't believe after providing such crystal clear verses from Qur'an you want to follow your own conjectures?

Verily, those whom you Call upon besides Allah are slaves like you. So Call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful. (Surat Al-A’raf 7:194)

If you Invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your Call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your association. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All-Knower. (Surat Fatir 35:14)

Allah says if you invoke them they will not hear your call, then All-Mighty Allah says, And incase they hear your call they will not be able to grand you your wish.

This is the most bogus translation that I have ever seen.

This is the most correct translation and I have already backed it with Qur'anic ayats. As for your translation then its pure bogus upon bogus cause there is not even a single aya showing that messengers of low ranks seeking the waseelah of higher rank messengers.

INVOCATION OF MESSENGERS FROM QUR'AN

Adam (as)

After he ate the fruit from the prohibited tree Allah taught him words of repentance

Surat Al-Baqara Chapter 2 - Verse no. 37.

"Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him."

And the words were

Surat Al-A'raf Chapter 7 - Verse no. 23.

They said (Adam and Hawa): "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers."

Ibrahim (as)

Ibrahim's (as) prayer from Qur'an

"O my Lord grant me a righteous (son)." (37:100)

And (remember) when Ibrahim said: "O my Lord! Make this city (Makka) one of the peace and security, and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols."

"O my Lord! They have indeed led astray many among mankind…."

"O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in an uncultivated valley…."

"O our Lord! Certainly, You know what we conceal and what we reveal. Nothing on earth or in the heaven is hidden from Allah."

"All the praises and thanks are to Allah, Who has given me in old age Isma'il and Ishaq. Verily! My Lord is indeed the All-Hearer of INVOCATIONS."

"O my Lord! Make me one who performs As-Salat (prayers), and (also) from my offspring, Our Lord! And accept my INVOCATION."

"Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents, and (all) the believers on the Day when the reckoning will be established." (14:35-41)

Ibrahim (as) And Isma'il (as)

And remember Ibrahim and Isma'il raised the foundations of the house ( with this prayer ): Our Lord! Accept ( this service ) from us: for thou art the all hearing, the all knowing. (2:127)

Lut (as)

He said: "My Lord! Give me victory over the people who are Mufsidin (Corrupt, oppressors, mischief makers)." (29:30)

"My Lord! Save me and my household from what they do." (26:169)

Allah Answered his prayer saying…So We saved him and his family..(26:170-172)

Musa (as)

He said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged myself! So forgive me!" So ( Allah ) forgave him : for He is the Oft Forgiving , Most Merciful. (28:16)

So he escaped from there, looking about in a state of fear. He said: "My Lord! Save me from the people who are Zalimin (Polytheists, Wrong-doers)!" (28:21)

( Moses ) said : "O my Lord! Open for me my chest;

And ease my task for me;

And remove the impediment from my speech,

So they may understand what I say:" (20:25-28)

Nuh (as)

He said: "My Lord! Verily, my people have belied me. Therefore judge You between me and them, and save me and those of the believers who are with me." (26:117-118)

Allah Answered his prayer saying….And we saved him and those…(26:119)

Then he invoked his Lord (saying): "I have been overcome, so help (me)!" (54:10)

Ayyub (as)

And ( remember ) Ayyub , when He cried to his Lord: "Truly distress has seized me , but thou art the Most Merciful of those that are Merciful." (21:83)

Allah Answered his prayer saying…So We answered his call, and We removed the distress..….and a reminder for those who worship Us. (21:84)

Dhun-Nun (as)

And (remember) Dhun-Nun when he went off in anger, and imagined that We shall not punish him! But he cried through the darkness (saying): La illaha illa Anta (none has the right to be worshipped but You), Glorify (and exalted) are You! Truly, I have been of the wrong-doers." (21:87)

Allah Answered his prayer saying…So We answered his call,…..(21:88)

Same Dua is taught by over beloved prophet Muhammad (saw) to us. (see above sahih Muslim and Bukhari)

Zakariyya (as)

And (remember) Zakariyya, when he cried to his Lord: "O My Lord! Leave me not single (childless), though You are the Best of the inheritors." (21:89)

Allah Answered his prayer saying…So We answered his call, and We bestowed upon him Yahya, and cured his wife for him…..(Listen to the reason for acceptance of their prayers)….Verily, they used to hasten on to do GOOD DEEDS, and they used to call on Us with hope and fear, and used to humble themselves before Us. (21:90)

So doing Good deeds is a source of acceptance of prayers.

Talut [saul (Chosen king of Allah over Bni-Israel)], his men And Dawud (as).

And when they advance to meet Jalut (Goliath) and his forces, they invoked: "Our Lord! Pour forth on us patience, and set firm our feet and make us victorious over the disbelieving people." (2:250)

And Allah Answered their prayer……So they routed them by Allah's Leave and Dawud killed Jalut, and Allah gave him the kingdom and Hikmah (prophethood), and taught him of that which He willed. (2:251)

Remember that at that time prophet Samuel (as) was present and alive yet they didn't invoke Allah through this prophet.

Inhabitants of Cave

Behold, the youths betook themselves to the cave: they said, "Our Lord bestow on us mercy from thyself, and dispose of our affair for us in the right way." (18:10)

*********

I haven't forget the argument brought by these people i.e. these messengers where higher in ranks so they didn't need any mediatory.

So my question is are all prophets same in ranking or closeness to Allah

Let see Qur'an for the answer

Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others;… (2:253)

And indeed, We have preferred some of the prophets above the others… (17:55)

So if some prophets were closer than others why didn't those who were lesser in ranks called Allah through those prophets who were higher in ranks?

Sahaba seeking the Wasila of Tabarukaat of Rasool Allah (saw), instead of making their good deeds as Wasila

You need first to learn the difference between Tawassul and Tabarruk

1. AL-BOOTEE’S ERROR IN MAKING TABARRUK (SEEKING BENEFIT) AND TAWASSUL ONE AND THE SAME.

Dr. Bootee said: “Tawassul by means of the traces left by the prophet ( ) is something recommended and prescribed, not to mention tawassul by means of his noble person.” So it is apparent from his words that he makes analogy between tawassul by means of his ( ) person with seeking benefit from traces left by him, and justifies it thereby.

He then calls this seeking benefit ‘tawassul’, and what we have said is further emphasised by what he says on p.196 of the same book where, after mentioning some reports about the Companions seeking blessings from traces left by him ( ), he says: “So if this is so with regard to tawassul by means of his physical traces, then how about tawassul by means of his station with Allaah, the Majestic? And how about tawassul by means of his being a mercy for the worlds?” But he quickly retreats from this and then claims that seeking blessings and tawassul are one and the same, and he denies that he makes analogy between them.

So he says: “So do not let yourself make the mistake of thinking that we make analogy between tawassul and seeking benefit. This is a question that cannot be resolved by means of analogy, since tawassul and tabarruk (seeking benefit) are merely two words for the same thing, which is seeking good and blessing by way of the means (waseelab). So both tawassul by means of his ( ) status with Allaah, and tawassul by means of his traces, and what emanates from him, and his clothes, all of these are single examples and parts entering within a comprehensive whole, which is unrestricted tawassul, whose ruling is established in the authentic ahaadeeth.

Then all the individual forms enter under the generality of the text, by means of what is known to the scholars as ‘overlooking that which is superfluous’.” But in reality what is apparent from his initial words is much less serious than what he says at the end, since tawassul is very clearly something totally different from tabarruk. Whoever tried to say that they are one and the same has committed a very serious error, and has fallen into grave ignorance of Sharee’ah realitie s, such things as are impermissible for any student of knowledge with self-respect. Tabarruk is seeking benefit by a person who gains possession of something from the remnants and traces left by the Prophet ( ) hoping for good through it, as something particular to him ( ). As for Tawassul, then it is to accompany ones supplication to Allaah, the Most High, with one of the means of nearness which Allaah, the Most High, has prescribed for His servants. For example that he says: “0 Allaah I ask You by means of my love for Your Prophet ( ) that You forgive me” and so on. So the difference can be seen in two things:

(i) That through tabarruk one hopes only for worldly good, as opposed to tawassul by means of which one may hope for good in either the worldly life or the Hereafter of both.

(ii) Tabarruk is a means of seeking immediate benefit and good as has preceded, as opposed to tawassul which is merely an accompaniment to ones supplication, it cannot be used except along with supplication. So in explanation of all this we say: It is prescribed for the Muslim to make tawassul when supplicating by means of one of the perfect names of Allaah, the Blessed and Most High, for example, and that through this he seeks to attain the fulfilment of any worldly need, such as increase in provision, or any need relating to the Hereafter, such as being saved from the Fire. So he says:

“0 Allaah I ask You, and seek nearness to You by the fact that You are Allaah, the One, the Self-Sufficient Master of all, that You cure me, “ or, “You enter me into Paradise...”

Nobody can criticise this person for any of this. However it is not permissible for the Muslims to do this whilst seeking benefit from something left behind by the Prophet ( ). So he cannot and it is not permissible for him to say, for example: “0 Allaah I ask You and use as a means of nearness to You, the robe of Your Prophet, or his shin, or his urine, that You forgive me and have mercy upon me...” Anyone who did the like of this would without a doubt give the people grounds to seriously doubt his sanity and capacity of understanding, not to mention his belief and the state of his religion. What is apparent from the words of Dr. al-Bootee is, however, that he would allow this weird tawas-sul, and that he would consider it and seeking benefit through the traces left by the Prophet ( ) to be one and the same thing.

So by this he is not afraid of accusing the Salafees of falling into an amazing

mistake and confusion for-thinking that there is nothing to permit it. However the readers will now be aware who has truly fallen into blind error and confusion. This reminds us of the piece of Arabian wisdom which says: “She accused me of her own fault and then slipped away.” Indeed how truthfully the noble Messenger ( ) said: From that which the people received from the earlier Prophets is: ‘If you do not feel shame then do as you wish. ‘”140°

There is a very serious and dangerous point which attention must be drawn to, and that is that he claims that any tawassul, without restriction, is affirmed by the authentic ahaadeeth. This is false and futile since it is no more than an assumption and a mere claim without any reality, except in his imagination. Rather the only tawassul relating to the Prophet ( ) that is established is

tawassul by means of his ( ) supplication, as has preceded. As for tawassul by means of his ( ) status or the traces he left behind, then nothing at all from that is established in the Book or the Sunnah. Indeed we request the Dr. to show us a single authentic hadeeth showing what he claims, and we are certain that he will not be able to find any such thing. Indeed we are accustomed to him affirming very serious rulings without the slightest shred of evidence! He also makes very great claims which have no foundation, except that this is how something seems to him. It is sufficient for him that the reader believes and fully accepts whatever he says, but let the reader beware of asking for a proof for anything he says, because that in his view shows bad manners and lack of religion, and is the way of the Salafees. So we seek Allaah’s refuge. So be aware!

2. THE FALSENESS OF TAWASSUL BY MEANS OF THE TRACES LEFT

BEHIND BY THE PROPHET(saw) After establishing the difference between tawassul and tabarruk, then we will know that we do not seek to use the traces left by the Prophet (saw) as a means of tawassul to Allaah, but rather we seek to gain benefit through them only, meaning that by obtaining them we would hope for the attainment of some worldly benefit, as has preceded.

We hold that tawassul by means of the traces left by the Prophet (saw) has never been something prescribed, and that it is a lie against the Companions, radiyallaahu ‘anbum, to claim that they used to make tawassul with thesetraces. Whoever wishes to claim something contrary to this then let him bring proof and establish that the Companions used to say in their supplications, for example: “0 Allaah, by means of the saliva of Your Prophet, or his excrement, save us from the Fire”!! No sane person would even allow such a thing to be narrated, so how about using such means. Then if Dr. al-Bootee is still in doubt about that, and he thinks that it is permissible, then he should affirm this in practice by supplicating with supplications such as these upon the pulpit. If he does not do it, and he will not do it, if Allaah wills, as long as he remains sane, and as long as a grain of eemaan remains in his heart, then that is a proof that he sa ys with his tongue what he does not believe in his heart. We must also draw attention to the fact that we believe in the permissibility of seeking benefit through the traces left by the Prophet (saw) and we do not deny it, contrary to the impression given by our adversary.

However seeking to derive benefit has conditions, from them is correct eemaan as demanded by the Sharee’ah and as is acceptable to Allaah. So one who is not a sincere and true Muslim, then Allaah will not grant him any good by his seeking to desire benefit in this way. A further condition for one desiring to attain such benefits is that he actually obtains a true remnant left by the Prophet (saw) which he then uses for this purpose.

But we know that the remnants left by him (saw ), whether robes, or hair, or things emanating from him, are now lost to us, and it is not possible for anyone to establish for certain that anything from them remains. Since this is the case then seeking benefit from these remnants is no longer an issue in our time,141 rather it has become a purely academic question, so it is not fitting that it should be spoken about at great length.

However there is a matter which must be explained which is that the Prophet (saw) even though he allowed the Companions in the battle of Hudaybiyyah and at other such times, to seek benefit from and to seek after the traces which he left, then that was for an important reason which was particularly important at that time. This reason was to strike fear in the Unbelievers of Quraysh, and The Dr. in question tried in a footnote (p. 197) of his aforementioned book to reply to something which I wrote in my treatise NaqdNusoos Hadeethiyyah in reply to al-Khattaanee.

He quotes that I said in it: “There is no benefit to be hoped for from the ahaadeeth about seeking benefit from the traces left by him (saw) in this age...” It is unfortunate that the Dr. has managed, in this brief quote, to manifest a clear example of treachery in quoting what others say, since he has twisted my words badly, rather what I actually said was: “There is no great benefit in affirming the prescription of seeking benefit from his ( ) traces in our day.” So see, may Allaah have mercy upon you, how the Dr. changed and twisted my words. I cannot see that he had any other purpose in doing that except to use it as an excuse to attack me and to incite the common people against me.

So do you, 0 brother reader, think that such behaviour is consistent with piety and fear of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, and with a sincere desire to attain the truth? I have fully replied to these lies.., and this has recently appeared in the form of a treatise: Difaa’ ‘anil -hadeetb in -Nabawee was -Seerah...

to show the level of devotion which the Muslims had for their Prophet, and their love of him, and how they dedicated themselves to his service, and the respect they had for him. But it is not permissible to overlook, nor to hide the fact that after this battle the Prophet ( ) encouraged Muslims, with wise means and in every fine manner, to turn away from this means of seeking benefit, and guided them instead to righteous actions which were better for them with Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, and more profitable. This is shown by the following hadeeth: From ‘Abdur-Rahmaan ibn Abee Quraad, radiyallaahu ‘anhu, that the Prophet ( ) made wudoo one day and the Companions wiped themselves with the water remaining from his wudoo, so the Prophet(*) said to them: What leads you to do this? They said: “Love of Allaah and HisMessenger.” So the Prophet ( ) said: Whoever is pleased that he should love Allaah and His Messenger, or that Allaah and His Messenger should love him, then let him make his speech truthful, and let him fulfil his trust when he is trusted, and let him behave as a good neighbour.

For example, in quran Allah mentioned many times that کفی ھاللاہ ولیا I am sufficient as Wali۔

ؓBut in this same quran, same Allah is telling us that along with Allah, His Prophet is also our Walli, and also those Momineen who give Zakat in state of Raku. (Similarly Quran also tells that Jibrael, Angels and Saleh Momineen are also Walli of Rasool Allah (saw) if his wives doesnt repent)......... (please read whole article of "Salafi Disease of Literalism" at www.answering-ansar.org

Allah alone can be your sufficient Wali but Angels, messenger and believers cannot be sufficient as wali without Allah....its that simple but it disease of conjecture.

Seeking the NEEDS through Hands of Rasool Allah (saw) by Sahabas, instead seeking Directly, or through their good Deeds

The first hadith Imam Ahmad related from Anas ibn Malik in his Musnad is:

"The whole Community of the people of Madina used to take the hand of the Prophet and rush to obtain their need with it."

Ahmad Musnad 3:98 #11947

Here is the Arabic Text of this hadith of Anas Ibn Malik:

مسند أحمد مسند باقي مسند المكثرين أنس بن مالك رضي الله عنه

حدثنا ‏ ‏هشيم ‏ ‏أنبأنا ‏ ‏حميد ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أنس بن مالك ‏ ‏قال ‏

إن كانت الأمة من أهل ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏لتأخذ بيد رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فتنطلق به في حاجتها

Whole community of people ---- Lie

Seeking needs through hands of messenger ---- Lie

Sahaba seeking their needs through hands of messenger ---- Lie

rush to obtain their need with it ----- Lie

I can't believe these many lies ????

I must say you have brought about four very big lies deliberately or out of ignorance. I rather believe its your ignorance and lack of understanding of Arabic language. So please avoid copy pasting materials from liars without doing proper investigation on it.

أمة also means (singular) slave girl

and

إماء means (plural) of slave girl.

Here are the ahadeeths on it.

ماجه

كتاب الزهد

4177- حدثنا نصر بن علي. حدثنا عبد الصمد وسلم بن قتيبة: قالا: حدثنا شعبة عن علي ابن زيد، عن أنس بن ملك؛ قال: إن كانت الأمة من أهل المدينة لتأخد بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فما ينزع يده من يدها حتى تذهب به حيث شاءت من المدينة، في حاجتها.

Majah

Kitaab Al-Zuhd

Narrated Nasir bin Ali, Narrated Abdullah Al-Samad and Salem bin Qatibah: said: Narrated Sha’ab on authority of Ali Bin Ziyad, on authority of Anas bin Malik; Said: A slave girl among inhabitants of Medina, use to seize messenger of Allah’s (saw) hand and (messenger of Allah) never withdrew his hand from hers until she takes him wherever she wished.

البخاري

كتاب الأدب

5724 - وقال محمد بن عيسى: حدثنا هُشَيم: أخبرنا حميد الطويل: حدثنا أنس بن مالك قال:

كانت الأمة من إماء أهل المدينة، لتأخذ بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فتنطلق به حيث شاءت.

Al-Bukhari

Kitaab Al-Adaab (manners)

Anas bin Malik said, " A slave girl among inhabitants of Medina use to take hold of the hand of Allah's Apostle and take him wherever she wished."

فهرس مسند أبي يعلى

الجزء السابع

[ 3982 ] حدثنا أبو بكر بن أبي شيبة حدثنا غندر عن شعبة عن علي بن زيد قال قال أنس إن كانت الوليدة من ولائد المسلمين لتجيء فتأخذ بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فما ينزع يده من يدها حتى تذهب به حيث شاءت.

Musnad Abi-Ya’la

Vol. 7

Anas bin Malik said, "There used to be a slave girl amongst the girls of Muslim who used to come and seize the hand of Allah's Apostle and he never withdrew his hand from her hand until she takes him whenever she wished."

فهرس مسند أحمد

مسند أنس بن مالك رضي الله تعالى عنه

- حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي حدثنا هشيم أنبأنا حميد عن أنس بن مالك قال:

-إن كانت الأمة من أهل المدينة لتأخذ بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فتنطلق به في حاجتها.

-إن كانت الخادم من أهل المدينة وهي أمة تأخذ بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فما ينزع يده منها حتى تذهب به حيث شاءت.

Musnad Ahmed

-Anas bin Malik; Said: "A slave girl among inhabitants of Medina use to take hold of the hand of Allah's Apostle and set forth with her needs."

-There was a servant from among people of medina and she was a slave, who use to take the hand of messenger of Allah (saw) and he (saw) never use take his hand away until she takes him wherever she wished.

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bro if the above translation is wrong. Explain it to us Mr.

After studying 12 years Arabic, and after I got the highest mark in the state (99.8%) in Arabic. I found the translation right.

Prove me wrong if u can :dry:

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Do me favour and translate this hadeeths.

فهرس مسند أحمد

مسند أنس بن مالك رضي الله تعالى عنه

- حدثنا عبد الله حدثني أبي حدثنا هشيم أنبأنا حميد عن أنس بن مالك قال:

-إن كانت الأمة من أهل المدينة لتأخذ بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فتنطلق به في حاجتها.

-إن كانت الخادم من أهل المدينة وهي أمة تأخذ بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فما ينزع يده منها حتى تذهب به حيث شاءت.

I would like to see how many different types of manipulative translation you will come with.

For your info this hadeeths is not just found in Musnad Ahmed.

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Bismillah

Salam to Momineen,

I can't believe after providing such crystal clear verses from Qur'an you want to follow your own conjectures?

Verily, those whom you Call upon besides Allah are slaves like you. So Call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful. (Surat Al-A’raf 7:194)

One of the most stupid statement by Nasibi advocate. These enemies of Allah want to change the Verses of Allah by playing their conjectures.

The Actual Verse of 17:57 is in front of them, and this is a Challange for them to prove their translation is correct one.

Regarding your misquotation of verses of "Calling", then let us open up a new thread and I show you the truth. Insha-Allah.

1.  AL-BOOTEE’S ERROR IN MAKING TABARRUK (SEEKING BENEFIT) AND TAWASSUL ONE AND THE SAME.

Can you tell us the name of this foolish person who wrote this article????

I am not addressing his whole stupid arguments. Let me concentrate on his main Claim.

There is no difference between Tawassul and Tabarruk

....... So the difference can be seen in two things (i.e. Tawassul and Tabarruk):

(i)  That through tabarruk one hopes only for worldly good, as opposed to tawassul by means of which one may hope for good in either the worldly life or the Hereafter of both.

I am just presenting some authentic Sunni Ahadith, which will destroy the backbone of these Wahabi lame excuses. Insha-Allah:

Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 74, Number 298

Narrated Thumama:

Anas said, "Um Sulaim used to spread a leather sheet for the Prophet and he used to take a midday nap on that leather sheet at her home." Anas added, "When the Prophet had slept, she would take some of his sweat and hair and collect it (the sweat) in a bottle and then mix it with Suk (a kind of perfume) while he was still sleeping. "When the death of Anas bin Malik approached, he advised that some of that Suk be mixed with his Hanut (perfume for embalming the dead body), and it was mixed with his Hanut.

Now Wahabies must declare Anas Ibn Malik to be Misguided Mushrik first, before coming to talk with us.

2) 2)Narrated by Ibn Hajar in al-Isaba fi tamyiz al-sahaba (Calcutta, 1853) 1:72 under "Anas Ibn Malik."

Ibn al-Sakan narrated through Safwan ibn Hubayra from the latter's father: Thabit al-Bunani said: Anas ibn Malik said to me (on his death-bed): "This is one of the hairs of Allah's Messenger, Allah's blessings and peace upon him. I want you to place it under my tongue. "Thabit continued: I placed it under his tongue, and he was buried with it under his tongue."

3) When `Abdullah ibn Anis came back from one of the battles having killed Khalid ibn Sufyan ibn Nabih, the Prophet gifted him his staff and said to him: "It will be a sign between you and me on the Day of Resurrection." Thereafter he never parted with it and it was buried with him when he died. Narrated by Ahmad in his Musnad (3:496).

4) Sahih Bukhari [Chapter of Istisqa']:

Annas narrated: Whenever drought threatened them, `Umar ibn al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through the mediation of al-`Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. He [`Umar] used to say: "O Allah! We used to ask you through the means (Wasila) of our Prophet and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask You through the means (Wasila) of our Prophet's uncle, so bless us with rain." And it would rain.

5)

رسول(ص) کی پہنی ہوئی چادر کو حصولِ برکت کے لیے اپنا کفن بنانا

ہم سے عبد اللہ بن مسلمہ نے بیان کیا کہا ہم سے عبد العزیز بن ابی حازم نے انہوں نے اپنے باپ سے انہوں نے سہل بن سعد ساعدی سے کہ ایک عورت آنحضرت(ص) کے پاس آئی اور ایک بنی ہوئی حاشیہ دار چادر آپ(ص) کے لئے تحفہ لائی۔ تم جانتے ہو چادر کیا ہے؟ لوگوں نے کہا شملہ، سہل نے کہا ہاں شملہ۔ خیر وہ کہنے لگی یہ میں نے اپنےہاتھ سے بنی ہے اور میں اس لئے لائی ہوں کہ آپ(ص) اس کو پہنیں۔ آنحضرت(ص) کو چادر کی اس وقت احتیاج تھی۔ آپ(ص) نے لے لی۔ باہر نکلے تو اسی کی تہ بند باندھے ہوئے ایک شخص (عبدالرحمن بن عوف) کہنے لگے کیا عمدہ چادر ہے۔ یہ مجھ کو عنایت کیجیئے۔ لوگوں نے عبد الرحمن سے کہا تم نے اچھا نہیں کیا۔ تم جانتے ہو کہ آنحضرت(ص) کو چادر کی ضرورت تھی۔ آپ(ص) نے اس کو پہن لیا پھر تم نے کیسے مانگی؟ تم یہ بھی جانتے ہو کہ آپ(ص) کسی کا سوال رد نہیں کرتے۔ عبدالرحمن نے کہا خدا کی قسم! میں نے پہننے کے لئے نہیں مانگی بلکہ میں (نے اس لئے مانگی کہ) اس کو اپنا کفن کروں گا۔ سہل نے کہا پھر وہ ان کے کفن میں شریک ہوئی

صحیح بخاری، کتاب الجنائز، ترجمہ از اہلحدیث عالم، مولانا وحید الزمان خان صاحب

اسی طرح کی ایک حدیث یہ بھی ہے کہہ:

جب شیرِ خدا مولا علی (علیہ السلام) کی والدہ ماجدہ حضرت فاطمہ بنت اسد کا انتقال ہوا تو رسول (ص) نے ان کی تجہیز و تکفین کے لیے خصوصی اہتمام فرمایا۔ غسل کے بعد جب انہیں قمیص پہنانے کا موقع آیا تو رسول (ص) نے اپنا کرتہ مبارک عورتوں کو عطا فرمایا اور حکم دیا کہ یہ کرتہ پہنا کر اوپر کفن لپیٹ دیں۔

المعجم لاکیبر للطبرانی 24:2

الاستیعاب البن عبد البر 282:4

اسد الغابہ 213:7

الاصابہ فہ تمیز الصحابہ 380:4

صحابی کا حضور(ص) کے عصا مبارک کو قبر میں حصولِ برکت کے لیے ساتھ رکھ کر دفن ہونا

مسند احمد بن حنبل، جلد 3

قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ، قَالَ اَخْبَرَنَا هَمَّامُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، عَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْوَاحِدِ          الْمَكِّيِّ، عَنْ  عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَقِيلٍ، اَنَّهُ سَمِعَ جَابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، يَقُولُ بَلَغَنِي حَدِيثٌ عَنْ رَجُلٍ، سَمِعَهُ مِنْ، رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّ قَدِمْتُ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَرَانِي فَقَالَ اَفْلَحَ الْوَجْهُ قَالَ قُلْتُ قَتَلْتُهُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ صَدَقْتَ قَالَ ثُمَّ قَامَ مَعِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَدَخَلَ فِي بَيْتِهِ فَاَعْطَانِي عَصًا فَقَالَ اَمْسِكْ هَذِهِ عِنْدَكَ يَا عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ اُنَيْسٍ قَالَ فَخَرَجْتُ بِهَا عَلَى النَّاسِ فَقَالُوا مَا هَذِهِ الْعَصَا قَالَ قُلْتُ اَعْطَانِيهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَاَمَرَنِي اَنْ اَمْسِكَهَا قَالُوا اَوَلَا تَرْجِعُ اِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَتَسْاَلَهُ عَنْ ذَلِكَ قَالَ فَرَجَعْتُ اِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ لِمَ اَعْطَيْتَنِي هَذِهِ الْعَصَا قَالَ ايَةٌ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ اِنَّ اَقَلَّ النَّاسِ الْمُتَخَصِّرُونَ يَوْمَئِذٍ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَقَرَنَهَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بِسَيْفِهِ فَلَمْ تَزَلْ مَعَهُ حَتَّى اِذَا مَاتَ اَمَرَ بِهَا فَصُبَّتْ مَعَهُ فِي كَفَنِهِ ثُمَّ دُفِنَا جَمِيعًا

عبداللہ بن انیس اپنے والد سے روایت کرتے ہیں کہ انہوں نے کہا:

جب میں نبی(ص) کی بارگاہ میں حاضر ہوا تو نبی(ص) نے مجھے دیکھ کر فرمایا: کامیاب ہونے والا چہرہ۔ کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے عرض کیا: یا رسول اللہ! میں نے اس (خالد بن سفیان) کو قتل کر دیا ہے۔ تو اس پر رسول(ص) نے فرمایا: تو نے سچ کہا۔ پھر رسول(ص) میرے ساتھ کھڑے ہوئے اور اپنے کاشانہ اقدس میں تشریف لے گئے اور مجھے عصا عطا کیا اور فرمایا: اے عبداللہ! اسے اپنے پاس رکھ۔ تو جب میں یہ عصا لیکر لوگوں کے سامنے نکلا تو انہوں نے کہا کہ یہ عصا کیا ہے؟ تو کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے کہا: یہ مجھے رسول(ص) نے عطا کیا ہے اور مجھے حکم دیا ہے کہ اسے اپنے پاس رکھوں۔ تو لوگوں نے مجھے کہا: کہا تم اسے رسول(ص) کو واپس نہیں کرو گے، تم اس کے متعلق رسول(ص) سے پوچھو؟ تو عبداللہ بن انیس کہتے ہیں کہ میں نبی(ص) کی خدمت میں حضر ہوا اور عرض کیا: اے اللہ کے رسول(ص)! یہ عصا مبارک آپ نے مجھے کس لیے عطا کیا ہے؟ آپ(ص) نے فرمایا: قیامت کے روز یہ تیرے اور میرے درمیان ایک نشانی ہو گی کہ جس دن بہت کم لوگ کسی کے ساتھ تعاون کرنے والے ہوں گے۔ عبداللہ نے اس عصا کو اپنی تلوار کے ساتھ باندھ لیا اور وہ ہمیشہ ان کے پاس رہتا یہاں تک کہ ان کا وصال ہو گیا۔ انہوں نے عصا کے متعلق وصیت کی تھی کہ اس کو میرے کفن میں رکھ دیا جائے۔ تو جب ان کا انتقال ہوا تو ہم نے ان کو اکھٹے دفن کر دیا۔

انس بن مالک سے ایک اور روایت ہے:

البدایہ وا لنہایہ

حدثنا ابو شيبة ابراهيم بن عبد الله بن محمد، ثنا مخول بن ابراهيم، ثنا اسرائيل عن عاصم، عن محمد بن سيرين، عن انس بن مالك انه كانت عنده عصية لرسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم فمات فدفنت معه بين جنبه وبين قميصه‏

کہ ان کے پاس رسول(ص) کی ایک چھوٹی سی چھڑی تھی، جب وہ فوت ہوئے تو وہ چھڑی ان کے ساتھ ان کی قمیص اور پہلو کے درمیان دفن کی گئی۔

7) The act of the Mother of the Believers `A'isha in the narration of Darimi is explicitly confirmed by Abu Talib's famous line of poetry concerning istisqa' through the Prophet as related in the book of istisqa' in Bukhari's Sahih:

`Abdullah ibn Dinar said: "I heard Ibn `Umar reciting the poetic verses of Abu Talib:

A fair-skinned one by whose face rainclouds are sought,

A caretaker for the orphans and protector of widows.

`Umar ibn Hamza said: Salim narrated from his father (Ibn `Umar) that the latter said: "The poet's saying came to my mind as I was looking at the face of the Prophet while he was praying for rain -- and he did not get down till the rain water flowed profusely from every roof-gutter:

A fair-skinned one by whose face rainclouds are sought,

A caretaker for the orphans and protector of widows.

One sub-narrator added: "These were the words of Abu Talib."

Note that in his translation of Bukhari (2:65), Muhammad Muhsin Khan alters the wording of the hadith to read: "A white person who is requested to pray for rain" in place of "by whose face rain is sought," and Allah knows best the reason for this grave betrayal of the translator's trust in the most important Islamic source after the Qur'an.

=====================

Walli and Sufficient Walli

Axiom said:

Allah alone can be your sufficient Wali but Angels, messenger and believers cannot be sufficient as wali without Allah....its that simple but it disease of conjecture.

A pure example of blind argument.

Show us where we denied that Allah is not Sufficient as Walli``???????

Or Show us where we said that Rasool (saw) is Independant Walli and he doesnt need Allah (naudobillah). ......... If you are true in your blame, then you show us, otherwise you are a declared lair.

We always said that Rasool (saw) is our Walli according to Will and Order and Permission of Allah (swt).

And question here was not of being "Enough Walli" or not, but of being Walli itself. This shows how these Nasibies twist the things and hide the truth.

==========================

أمة  also means (singular) slave girl 

and

إماء  means (plural) of slave girl.

Here are the ahadeeths on it.

ماجه

كتاب الزهد

4177- حدثنا نصر بن علي. حدثنا عبد الصمد وسلم بن قتيبة: قالا: حدثنا شعبة عن علي ابن زيد، عن أنس بن ملك؛ قال: إن كانت الأمة من أهل المدينة لتأخد بيد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فما ينزع يده من يدها حتى تذهب به حيث شاءت من المدينة، في حاجتها.

Majah

Kitaab Al-Zuhd

Narrated Nasir bin Ali, Narrated Abdullah Al-Samad and Salem bin Qatibah: said: Narrated Sha’ab on authority of Ali Bin Ziyad, on authority of Anas bin Malik; Said: A slave girl among inhabitants of Medina, use to seize messenger of Allah’s (saw) hand and (messenger of Allah) never withdrew his hand from hers until she takes him wherever she wished.

- first of all, you concealed the translation of فی حاجتھا ......... Why??????

- Secondly, there are tons of Ahadith where people sought benefit and their needs through the Barakah of Rasool Allah (saw) (not only in this world, but also after their death). How can you turn blind eyes to all these tons of Ahadith.?

If you want to keep your eyes still shut, then even Allah (swt) doesnt guide the blinds.

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thank you for ur time and interest

plz have a look below as i again try to sum up the issues and in short reply to above posts

can we plz be very specific and answer by numbers, eg, answer to question 1, 2 and so on..

questions from my original post still unanswered:

-------------------------------------------------

1) once an aaalim said the same thing as posted on answering ansar, that Allah created secondary causes and means, he gave some examples from quranic ayats, like "hum nay in logo k haath may shifa rakhi hai" and others, i dont remeber them, can u plz give me refrences and other such ayat where God says he has DELEGATED the "giving power"

---------------------------------------

2)even if u somehow prove that wasila was needed, for example in 4:64, and in 12:97-98 etc, or when u say that God made Hazrat Ali helper of Prophet and we can call him for help, they say that those people who were called in for help were alive, for example, Prophet being alive in 4:64, hz yusuf etc in 12:97-98 and hz ALI (as) in Prophet's lifetime

now these people are dead. if u ask a living person to help u he can help in "physical aspects"(eg give u drink of water if u ask for it, or hz ALI saving the Prophet on numerous occasions) or "by praying for u"(in 4:64, 12:97-98)

NOW FOR EG, SAYING YA ALI MADAD WHILE IN DANGER OR WHILE FALLING DOWN, WE BELEIVE WE ARE SAVED BY MAULA ALI (as), WAHABIS ARGUE HE DOESNT HAVE A PHYSICAL PRESENCE.

----------------------------

3)

""[shakir 17:57] Those whom they call upon (i.e. Jesus, Marry, Angels etc.), themselves seek the means of access to their Lord-- whoever of them is nearest-- and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement;"""

---------

Secondly, see that these both types of prophets (i.e. lower rank and heigher rank prophets) both have already passed away from this world. This means that alive or dead makes no difference.

------------

3a) i m given to understand that God is talking about people who call upon Jesus , Mary, Angels for help. is God denouncing such an act or merely referencing to it without denouncing it? does it mean that we can call Jesus etc for help as well? or are christians justified in calling upon these people for help???

3b) the later part says "these people (J, M , A) seek 'means of access' to Lord, and these 'means' are persons who, amongst these people, are more closer to God. Is God talking about all Prophets? How can we prove that this ayat is in present continuos, ie, these people are still doing it? bcz u wrote in argument 2, that 'both these have already passed away, this means dead or alive makes no difference' do we have sunni tafaaseer in this regard?

3c)this has another aspect: most sunnies(not wahabies) dont deny that u can pray by saying "Oh God! help me in the love of ur prophet (saw_) [or other special person]" (ay Khuda! rasool(saw) [ya kissi aur aulia Allah] k sadqay meri dua qabool karien" so maybe, the lower rank prophets seek the means in this way, bcz if dead, they have no need to go to a certain high ranking prophet and ask him to pz pray for me or be my intercessor

3d) u wrote:

You see, according to Ahadith, prophets are alive in their graves and worshipping (i.e. doing the acts of Wasilah as mentioned by Mawla Ali and you have brought in our notice. But still Quran tells us that they are at the same time seeking the Wasilah of all those angels and prophets, who are heigher in rank.

i dont understand, how does the ayat prove all this, alive and worshipping? specially ur last sentence, can u plz make a link?

to tell u the truth, this ayat is rather a bit confusing for me, it doesnt solve probs, it is springing up new ones, including a separate debate on its correct translation

-------------------

On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with” (20:109)

QUOTE

The above mentioned verses and many other ayats/verses in Quran encourage the practice of tawassul, but only if its to the right people and to the chosen people by Allah (SWT).

4)

another question asked by these wahabis is:

ok fine, even if in spiritual gains, dead can be a wasila, who are we to decide whom to make wasila? the ayats u present further strengthens their saying. they say God can give us through any wasila. why should we say k Oh God give us through ALI or give us THROUGH HUSSAIN. if God needs to give through a wasila, he will chose one Himself

plus the wordings, we say YA ALI MADAD, while beleive that the real giver is God, and without God's help or will, even ALI cant help or give gains. so why not say Oh God! Madad (through ALI) . when we say YA ALI MADAD, a)how can dead help? b)if its God help routed through ALI, why take ALI's name and not directly ask God, when wasila is even optional? c)incase of (B) again, why limit God's power (nauzobillah) and why say k Give only through ALI? what if God gives through some one else? by saying YA ALI MADAD, are we implying to God that oh God, if u give thru some else, we wont accept the help?

THE AYAT ITSELF CLEARLY SAYS THAT IT WILL BE GOD'S WILL WHO HE CHOSES AS A WASILA. SO HOW CAN WE CHOSE? WHY DO WE CHOSE AND PICK UP ONE SPECIFIC WASILA? PLUS THE ABOVE DEBATE ON THE WORDINGS ETC.....

------------------------

5)the debate on tabbruk and tawassul is pretty clear, if the nasibis dont want to get the point no one can make em do so. i guess this specific point is now closed. so plz discuss other issues like those i wrote above. a clear cut and precise answer is what is requried

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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

All the objections are answered above, and also in a lot of other debates on this forum. Please consult them.

Regarding Grammer of Verse 17:57 :

أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ

(continous action)

يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَى رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ

(continous action)

أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ

(completed Action)

وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ

(continous action)

Once again for you the Urdu Translation of Taqi Uthmani:

11.gif

============

- Principle is this that Waslia can be sought from all who are more pious and high in ranking from us. (e.g. Umar's making Abbas his Wasila for the rain, although Quran never revealed anything about Abbas. Similarly, Sahaba seeking the wasila of Tabarrukaat of Rasool Allah (saw), although nothing was mentioned in Quran about this).

Similarly, Wasila for Shafaat are not only Jesus, Marry and earlier prophets, but also Angels are our Wasila while Quran confirms that they also Do Intercession for us.

- Another principle is Wasila can be sought from all things, which have Barakah.

Both these points are made very much clear in Ahadith.

There is difference between:

- Call of Worship

- Call of intercession (i.e. making request to Rasool (saw) to do dua for us.

Not every call is call of worhip, but it depends upon the intention (Niyyah) of person. Kuffar and Ahle Kitab called Jesus und Uzair while considering them gods and that call was call of worhip.

But when we make a call to Dead in graveyard by saying "Assalmo Alika Ya ahlil Qaboor", then this call is not call of worship. But Wahabies are unable to understand this difference due to their disease of literalism.

I have already written a lot on this issue earlier and no time to indulge in these talks again and again. It would be better if you go and read the AA article "Can dead Hear" before posting your questions again and again here.

Jazak Allah.

Was Salam.

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Pity full is the state of my opponent, first she can't get even a single aya backing her deviant believes. Second she has to rely on ahadeeths from sources who she calls nasibis. Third due to her low mentally and lack of understanding she blindly copy paste contents from dishonest liars. And last of all but not least the ahadeeths she posted from authentic sunni sources doesn't support her claim either.

[(axiom)]

Verily, those whom you Call upon besides Allah are slaves like you. So Call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful. (Surat Al-A’raf 7:194)

If you Invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your Call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your association. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All-Knower. (Surat Fatir 35:14)

[(zainabia)]

One of the most stupid statement by Nasibi advocate.

-----------------------------

But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat, and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery! (18:56)

First of all I don’t advocate for your cult.

Second, dua or invocation was known as worship by Allah's messengers, Sahaba and Ahlul Bait and is still known as worship by His pious slave known as Salafiya. But those in whose hearts is disease don't even bother to bring ahadeeths (without even trying to understand the matn of it) from their opponent's book to back their ugly shirk and kufr of invoking creatures besides the creator.

All your arguments are childish and your antic behaviour is just another proof of your complete failure to backup your claims.

Again I demand you to show me a single verse where messengers of lower rank supplicated through the names of messengers of higher rank. Qur’an is not empty of prophetic invocations at time of distress.

I know you will never be able to bring even single verse so this aya suits best for liar like you.

But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for disbelievers.

(2:24)

Can you tell us the name of this foolish person who wrote this article????

I wonder what can a copy paste person like you do? Go and search for more stupid manipulated articles to paste? For this is all what u can do.

I am not addressing his whole stupid arguments. Let me concentrate on his main Claim.

Here we go again

I am just presenting some authentic Sunni Ahadith, which will destroy the backbone of these Wahabi lame excuses. Insha-Allah:

Destroy, backbone, wahabi?

Makes me just laugh at this desperate creatures

Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 74, Number 298

Narrated Thumama:

Anas said, "Um Sulaim used to spread a leather sheet for the Prophet and he used to take a midday nap on that leather sheet at her home." Anas added, "When the Prophet had slept, she would take some of his sweat and hair and collect it (the sweat) in a bottle and then mix it with Suk (a kind of perfume) while he was still sleeping. "When the death of Anas bin Malik approached, he advised that some of that Suk be mixed with his Hanut (perfume for embalming the dead body), and it was mixed with his Hanut.

Now Wahabies must declare Anas Ibn Malik to be Misguided Mushrik first, before coming to talk with us.

Mushrik! Indeed you are Pathetic!

I would like to ask my ignorant opponent whether Anas bin Malik did this believing that scent will repel away Munkar and Nakir? Or this scent will save him from hell fire?

The answer is of course no. So why did he do it since barraka cannot be sort after death?

The answer is: Its love, that action of his shows the love he had for prophet (saw) that he wished his dead body should have the scent of Allah’s messenger. He didn't do that believing this scent will save him from torment of grave or here-after.

The following hadeeths further explain it why.

‘Abdur-Rahmaan ibn Abee Quraad, radiyallaahu ‘anhu, that the Prophet (saw) made wudoo one day and the Companions wiped themselves with the water remaining from his wudoo, so the Prophet(saw) said to them: What leads you to do this? They said: “Love of Allaah and His Messenger.” So the Prophet ( ) said: Whoever is pleased that he should love Allaah and His Messenger, or that Allaah and His Messenger should love him, then let him make his speech truthful, and let him fulfill his trust when he is trusted, and let him behave as a good neighbour.

3) When `Abdullah ibn Anis came back from one of the battles having killed Khalid ibn Sufyan ibn Nabih, the Prophet gifted him his staff and said to him: "It will be a sign between you and me on the Day of Resurrection." Thereafter he never parted with it and it was buried with him when he died. Narrated by Ahmad in his Musnad (3:496).

No comments.

4) Sahih Bukhari [Chapter of Istisqa']:

Annas narrated: Whenever drought threatened them, `Umar ibn al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through the mediation of al-`Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. He [`Umar] used to say: "O Allah! We used to ask you through the means (Wasila) of our Prophet and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask You through the means (Wasila) of our Prophet's uncle, so bless us with rain." And it would rain

He [`Umar] used to = past tense which means he didn't do it later (i.e after his death).

Further, why didn't Umar (ra) ask messenger of Allah instead if it was possible after his death? A slap on our opponent's face.

it would not be fitting for ‘Umar, nor anyone other than ‘Umar to abandon tawassul by means of the Prophet (saw) and to turn instead to tawassul by means of al -‘Abbaas if it were still possible to carry out tawassul by means of the Prophet (saw). Nor can it be imagined that all of the Companions, radiyal laahu ‘anhum, would agree to that if ‘Umar had done it, since leaving tawassul by means of the Prophet (saw) in favour of tawassul by means of others would be just like leaving following the Prophet (saw) in Prayer in favour of following someone else; it is just the same. Rather the Companions, laahu‘anhum, knew fully the honour, status and excellence of their Prophet (saw) and that no one else could in any way approach that status.

Axiom said:
Allah alone can be your sufficient Wali but Angels, messenger and believers cannot be sufficient as wali without Allah....its that simple but it disease of conjecture.

A pure example of blind argument.

Show us where we denied that Allah is not Sufficient as Walli``???????

This ignorant is hell-bent to show her ignorance in every post.

She is asking me where she denied Allah as sufficient walli at the same time she pleaded to look up this site.

(please read whole article of "Salafi Disease of Literalism" at www.answering-ansar.org

Now look what I found in that site.

AA. says:-

Now after saying that we agree with Salafi on this point (that Allah is the Only and Sufficient Helper), we would like to ask Salafi if they too agree with us on the following point: Our claim is this that when Allah says that He is the Only and Sufficient Helper, then Rasool Allah [saww], Gabriel (as), righteous believers and angels are already included in it allegorically.

Shirk has limit but in you and your AA site, I don't see any limit. And also you have proven to be a no.1 liar on this board.

- first of all, you concealed the translation of فی حاجتھا ......... Why??????

need necessity حاجَة

need want neediness poverty shortage deficiency حاجَة

desire wish aim حاجَة

Now don't try to bring lame excuses and admit to the fact that you are a just an ignorant C&P member of this board. Next time atleast try to use some brain cells before doing that job.

By the way thanks for failing to grasp the difference between Tawassul and Tabarruk.

I suggest you add this phrase in your every invocation

“0 Allaah I ask You and use as a means of nearness to You, the robe of Your Prophet, or his shin, or his urine, that You forgive me and have mercy upon me...”

Edited by axiom
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To alisaahil

What we Muslims are against is invoking someone with the phrase Ya so and so madad (help) in time of need like most of the mushrikin do. How can you supplicate or invoke a man like yourself when supplication or invocation is considered worship in sight of Allah. Once we agree that INVOCATION IS BEST FORM OF WORSHIP then we can proceed forward and look whether Allah will tolerate shirk (bringing someone) in between this worship.

Here is what Allah Al-mighty have to say:-

Say (O Muhammad (Saw)): "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.

Al-Qur'an, 18:110 (Al-Kahf [The Cave])

Also Allah said invocation is worship and ordered us to invoke him alone and promised Hell fire for those who turn away from his invocation.

And your Lord says: “Call on Me, I will answer your prayer.” Verily! Those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!” (Surat Ghafir 40:60)

can u plz give me refrences and other such ayat where God says he has DELEGATED the "giving power"

Of course not and if one believe that, then he is out right mushrik

Allah says:

Say (Muhammad): “I posses no Power over benefit or Hurt to myself except as Allah Wills. If I had the knowledge of the Ghaib (unseen), I should have secured for myself an abundance of wealth and no Evil should have touched me. I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings unto people who believe.” (Surat Al-A’raf 7:188)

Say (O Muhammed): “I have no power over any Harm or Profit to myself except what Allah may will. For every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a term appointed; when their term comes, neither can they delay it nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment).” (Surat Yunus 10:49)

Say: “Tell me then things that you invoke besides Allah----if Allah intended some Harm for me, could they remove His Harm? Or if He (Allah) intended some Mercy for me, could they withhold His Mercy?” Say: “Sufficient for me is Allah; in Him those who trust (i.e. believers) must put their trust.” (Surat Az-Zumar 39:38)

NOW FOR EG, SAYING YA ALI MADAD WHILE IN DANGER OR WHILE FALLING DOWN, WE BELEIVE WE ARE SAVED BY MAULA ALI , WAHABIS ARGUE HE DOESNT HAVE A PHYSICAL PRESENCE.

Just think about this. Did any believer invoke Ya Ali Madad when Ali (ra) was alive and just 5 kilometers away from him?

The answer is no cause he knew that Ali (ra) will not hear his call for help no matter how loud he screams.

Allah says:

If you Invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your Call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your association. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All-Knower. (Surat Fatir 35:14)

Verily, those whom you Call upon besides Allah are slaves like you. So Call upon them and let them answer you if you are truthful. (Surat Al-A’raf 7:194)

Say (O Muhammad): “Tell me or inform me (what) do you think about your (so-called) partners to whom you Call upon besides Allah? Show me, what they have created of the earth. Or have We given them a Book, so that they act on clear proof there from? Nay, the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) promise one another nothing but delusions.” (Surat Fatir 35:40)

Those whom they Invoke besides Allah have not created anything, but are themselves created. Dead, not alive; and they know not when they will be raised up. (Surat An-Nahl 16:20-21)

Surely the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allah only. And those who take Auliya (protectors, intercessors, Lords, helpers, gods) besides Him (say): "We worship them (call them, ask them) only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truely, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever (in Ayas, signs of Allah which says worship or invoke Allah alone).

(Surat Az-Zumar 39:3)

i m given to understand that God is talking about people who call upon Jesus , Mary, Angels for help. is God denouncing such an act or merely referencing to it without denouncing it?

No Allah is not supporting their actions, if you just read the verse preceeding it, the picture will be more clearer.

First Allah says:

Say: Cry unto those besides him whom ye fancy. They have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them. (Surat Al-Isr’a 17:56)

And the he continues with

Those whom they call upon (Jesus and angels...etc.), desire (for themself) means of access to their Lord, as to which of them should be the nearest (i.e. compete in coming closer to Allah); and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of. (Qur'an 17:56-57)

So how can Allah say that those whom you call cannot remove trouble from you and then at the same time support calling others? It would be totally insanse to believe like that.

So if we take the deviated translation of mushirks then it would mean messengers of Allah sorted waseelah of other messengers or invoke their names in time of need. But praise to Allah who didn't give mushrikins such a chance and revealed to us the invocations of messenger which was of course to Allah alone.

does it mean that we can call Jesus etc for help as well? or are christians justified in calling upon these people for help???

No Isa (as) will dissociate from them and so will messenger of Allah and his ahlul bait from those who call upon them for help.

How can we prove that this ayat is in present continuos, ie, these people are still doing it?

This aya was revealed on some mushrikins who used to worship Jinns, but those jinns became muslims but these people were not aware of it. Thats why this aya was revealed in continuous tense regarding mushrikins action who were worshipping jinns while the jinns themselves were seeking nearness to Allah.

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Note: Following is taken from www.al-islam.org (Tawassul Article)

Salafiyyah Interpretation of Ayah 18 of Surah al-Jinn

Another reason put forward by the Salafiyyah such as Muhammad Rashid Rida on non-permissibility of tawassul to the Prophet after his death is that any wasilah for proximity to God should be a thing which God has determined for mankind such as faith, action and supplication. It was in the middle ages that tawassul to the person of the Prophets and pious men became widespread and they were considered wasa'il ila Allah (means to Allah) by people who would invoke God by their names and would supplicate to them at their tombs for their needs, when supplication is a form of worship as God says in the Holy Qur'an:

"So call you not anyone with Allah." (72:18)

"Surely, those whom you call other than Allah are subservient (to Allah) like unto your own selves..." (7:194)

Critique

In answer to this objection it should be said that every supplication is not a form of worship or even the spirit of worship, since the root of du'a' (supplication) is da'wat, a word which along with its derivatives occurs frequently in the Holy Qur'an. For instance, "...let us call (nad'u) our sons... (3:61)" and "Make you not the addressing (du'a') of the Prophet among you like your addressing one another..." (24:63)

As could be discerned, in most of the 'Ayas the word du'a' means to call or address. Accordingly neither every nida' (call) is du'a' nor every du'a' is 'ibadat (worship). In other words du'a' (supplication) becomes 'ibadat when the rules of worship such as servitude and submissiveness to Allah are observed with acknowledgement of the over lordship of the Almighty Creator. What connection does this have with tawassul and tabarruk to the Prophet (s) and the Infallible Imams ('a) and requesting them for help and succour?

Thus, the narration al-du'a' huwa al-'ibadah (supplication is among the acts of worship), does not necessarily mean that every supplication is a form of worship. [25]

=================

Axiom, you want to change the Verses of Quran (verse 17:57) on the bases of your conjecture.

I have showed you the correct Grammer and if you have courage, then refute this correct translation and show us the words of competence between Prophets and angels...... etc

Also, yo made following 2 points:

1) One can take one`s good deeds as waseelah during prayer to Allah.

2) Tens of Prayers of Earlier prophets are mentioned in Quran.

Now my counter question to you is to show us:

- Do you believe that Earlier prophets ever did any good Deed????? (Well we Shias believe that their lives were full of Good Deeds)

- If you also believe that they did good deeds, then show us Prayers of any Earlier prophet, in which he presented his any of good deed as Wasila to Allah.

This is the lame excuse and standard, which you yourself chose to deny the true meaning of Verse 17:57 of holy Quran.

The verse of Quran (17:57) is very clear and no Wahabi can deny it or neglect it or distort it by changing it`s meanings. Insha-Allah.

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Moreover, axiom wrote:

Allah alone can be your sufficient Wali but Angels, messenger and believers cannot be sufficient as wali without Allah....its that simple but it disease of conjecture.

A pure example of blind argument.

Show us where we denied that Allah is not Sufficient as Walli``???????

This ignorant is hell-bent to show her ignorance in every post.

She is asking me where she denied Allah as sufficient walli at the same time she pleaded to look up this site.

(please read whole article of "Salafi Disease of Literalism" at www.answering-ansar.org

Now look what I found in that site.

AA. says:-

Now after saying that we agree with Salafi on this point (that Allah is the Only and Sufficient Helper), we would like to ask Salafi if they too agree with us on the following point: Our claim is this that when Allah says that He is the Only and Sufficient Helper, then Rasool Allah [saww], Gabriel as.gif, righteous believers and angels are already included in it allegorically.

Shirk has limit but in you and your AA site, I don't see any limit. And also you have proven to be a no.1 liar on this board.

This person is now taking the things out of context and blaming us that:

- We deny that Allah is not sufficient Wali.

Naudhobillah. This is why I say that his blind hatred has made him devoid of sense.

Indeed we believe that Rasool is not a sufficient helper without Allah's permission.

Indeed we believe that Awlaiya Allah are not sufficient helpers without Allah.

AA article is absolutely not trying to prove that Rasool is absoultely independant Wali and doesnt need Allah (naudobillah), but it is proving that beside Allah's saying that He is Alone and Sufficient Walli, still it is not shirk to cinsider Rasool (saw) too to be our Wali.

But again this person, whom Allah has devoid of Aql, instead of looking at our intentions, just misquoting our words and Making Huge Allegations of Shrk against us.

May Allah destroy him if he has done it depite knowing our intentions.

And if he has done this Zulm unintentionally, then may Allah give him Hidaya to make things clear before declaring anyone Kaffir.

Amin.

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Also, yo made following 2 points:

1) One can take one`s good deeds as waseelah during prayer to Allah.

2) Tens of Prayers of Earlier prophets are mentioned in Quran.

Now my counter question to you is to show us:

- Do you believe that Earlier prophets ever did any good Deed????? (Well we Shias believe that their lives were full of Good Deeds)

- If you also believe that they did good deeds, then show us Prayers of any Earlier prophet, in which he presented his any of good deed as Wasila to Allah.

Good deeds are Waseela but they don't have to be "presented" before the supplication.Praying is enough and Allah is aware of the deeds.

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