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In the Name of God بسم الله

Truth Revealed about Sunnism!

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  • Advanced Member
You still didn't address my point Jat... your  ideas of qualities that make a good MUSLIM leader are flawed...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And your problem is that u cannot accept anyone as leader except ur Imams,thats why according to u Islam in its 1400+ history and as being one of the most influential religions in the world and which contributed so much to the Mankind actually never had any good leader.

So its useless to try and convince u,but,Truth is evident to by Omer ra successes.

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as has been pointed out, there have been many successful rulers throughout history, some of them even Muslim, but that does not make them the best of mankind, or even better rulers than some who might have conquered less but led better (such as prophet Muhammad (pbuh)&HP) A point you totally dismiss in favor of the bida' monger, Umar.

Edited by Aliya
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Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali Madad

Who ran away , leaving the prophet of Islam behind in the battle of Ohad?Full Muslim Ummah Shud sit and find out the names of those cowards !! and publish ther names every where

regarding time magazine --hahahah bush the butcher was named person of the year

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Hussainyet Zindabad

Yazidiyat Murdabad

Firoz Ali

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK forget the time magazine(by the way 100 greatest men reference is NOT from time magazine)

Take any historian u know,be it a Muslim or not MUslim and they are unanimous that after Rasoolullah saw the best part of Muslim history was that of Omer (ra)

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He made it so muslim could prayer in public that is more thn anybody on this board can say they have done for islam. IF he had flaws Allah will judge them but he was part of and did many things with prophet(pbuh) so I find it funny people who have accomplished or did nothing for religion to call him name perhaps we need to be checking our deens .

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best part for bidah maybe, otherwise, I have my doubts. I've even seen people here saying the rule of Abu Bakr was the supposed best... I think you guys need to get some sort of OFFICIAL consensus on which usurper y'all like better. :!!!:

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as has been pointed out, there have been many successful rulers throughout history, some of them even Muslim, but that does not make them the best of mankind, or even better rulers than some who might have conquered less but led better (such as prophet Muhammad (pbuh)&HP) A point you totally dismiss in favor of the bida' monger, Umar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

U can keep on assuming who could be a good ruler or not,BUT,actions speak louder than the words.

Show me one person in Shiite history that has achieved as a ruler 1/100th of what Omer (ra) did.

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As I said, it's about QUALITY of rulership, not the quantity of land, etc. And NO ONE has equaled the superior quality of rulership that Prophet (pbuh)&HP achieved. and the main reason Ali (as) and Hasan (as) didn't accomplish that level was they had to deal with the mess the first three usurpers made of the system the prophet (PHUB)&HP had enacted.

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OK forget the time magazine(by the way 100 greatest men reference is NOT from time magazine)

Take any historian u know,be it a Muslim or not MUslim and they are unanimous that after Rasoolullah saw the best part of Muslim history was that of Omer (ra)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sallam

Yaa Ali madad

so now its after the prophet , u want to discuss the role of umar? and not during?

why not during the life of prophet? (peace be upon him and his pure progeny)??

who ran away from the battle of Ohad , leaving the holy prophet behind,

how can anyone be equal to Hazrat Ali A.S, who faught and gave full protection to the prophet during the battle of Ohad --

just also read battle of Khandak and Khaiber plz

how can any coward be equal to Hazrat Ali A.S??

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Hussainiyet Zinda bad

Yazeediyat Murdabad

Firoz Ali

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Sallam

Yaa Ali madad

so now its after the prophet , u want to discuss the role of umar? and not during?

why not during the life of prophet? (peace be upon him and his pure progeny)??

who ran away from the battle of Ohad , leaving the holy prophet behind,

how can anyone be equal to Hazrat Ali A.S, who faught and gave full protection  to the prophet during the battle of Ohad --

just also read battle of Khandak and Khaiber plz

how can any coward be equal to Hazrat Ali A.S??

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Hussainiyet Zinda bad

Yazeediyat Murdabad

Firoz Ali

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do not shift from one point to another.

U could not come up with anything to support that he was not an able ruler.

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Do not shift  from one point to another.

U could not come up with anything to support that he was not an able ruler.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Salaam Alaiqum

Yaa Ali madad

a able leader in Islam (apart from other qualities )a good warrior and lover of Prophet (peace be upon him and his chaste progeny) , not a cowrad who runs away from the battle field ,

A true able islamic leader shud have full faith in Almighty Alaah and during jehad shud not run away --

this running away from the battlefield at Ohad shows how much Love they had for Islam And the prophet (saw)

This love towards Islam and Prophet was shown by these beloved of yrs during the death of the holy prophet , they left the dead body of the holy prophet without ghusal and kafan and went to sakifa -- is this a very hight quality of a islamic leader --who is a coward and a traitor

Hazrat Ali A.S showed true leadership during war

Hazrat Ali Showed that he loved the prophet(saw ) and did the burial of our prophet?

tell me whose action is correct ?

Hazrat Ali A.S 's action -- who did not run away from the battle field and faught bravely and defended the prophet(saw)

OR

those who ran away from the battle field?

Tell me whose action is correct ?

Hazrat Ali A.S's action ,that he did not go to sakifa and did the burrial of our holy prophet after his death

OR

those who left prophet's dead body and went to sakifa?

A Islamic leader first has to be a true muslim and shud love the Prpohet and his chaste progeny, more then anything else -- the above two incidents just shows yr so called leader did not posess this qualities

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Hussainyet Zindabad

Yezidiyet Murdabad

Firoz Ali

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:)

I guess the study of Omer  (ra) reign will be a priority to get the starters list.

(salam)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(salam)

There were 3 battles that took place when the Prophet was the leader (20 yrs since declaring islam)

22 when Abu bakar was the Caliph (2 yrs of caliphate)

25 when Umar was the Caliph (20 yrs of caliphate)

4 when Ali was the Caliph including Jamal and the one with Muawyah (4yrs of caliphate)

Need I say more?

Wassalaam

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Asalam Alaikum,

Look at the number of battles. The sheer number of battles during the reign of 1st and 2nd caliph, clearly suggest that they went to battle to increase their land.

Also compare the number of battles fought by our Prophet (pbuh) and the number of battles fought by Hazrat Ali(AS).

Allah Hafiz

Edited by munna
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Definitely,Abu Bakr ra reign will be looked into.

And munna ur argument is lame to say the least coz ,none of them took the land for themselves or their heirs.None of them gave the Caliphate to their sons.They both lived very simple lifes.

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Definitely,Abu Bakr ra reign will be looked into.

And munna ur argument is lame to say the least coz ,none of them took the land for themselves or their heirs.None of them gave the Caliphate to their sons.They both lived very simple lifes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali Madad

Did the Holy Prophet (saw) say that after me go and capture other ppls land???

Or only when one is attacked one is allowed to defend??

sending army to fight is no braverry?? Protecting the honour of Islam and Protecting the holy Prophet SAW is real bravery and That Only and ONLY HAZRET ALI.A.S did , but suprisingly sunnis never ever give credit to Hazrat Ali.A.S for such brave deeds and yet they clain they love Hazrat Ali.A.S and Ahle Bait .

When Islam army Became strong,remaining in a strong army is no big deal , but when Islam army was very weak these cowards ran away

Had Hazrat Ali A.S not defended in the Battle of Ohad where wud these "so called leaders" be today

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Hussiniyat Zindabad

Yazeediyat Murdabad

Har Dum Ali Ali

Kadam Kadam Pey Ali KO Pukartey rahna

Firoz Ali

Edited by Firoz Ali
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(salam)

There were 3 battles that took place when the Prophet was the leader (20 yrs since declaring islam)

22 when Abu bakar was the Caliph (2 yrs of caliphate)

25 when Umar was the Caliph (20 yrs of caliphate)

4 when Ali was the Caliph including Jamal and the one with Muawyah (4yrs of caliphate)

Need I say more?

Wassalaam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(bismillah)

(salam)

MARHABA... WHAT A PROOF.. DA BEST EVER... now I know where the talibans got their Warmongoring skills from.. no place for talibans in islam people :P

I said that because I have heard stories from sunni afghans about how the talibans behave in afghanistan.. I guess there would be a time when the talibans will be called innocents and I quote "their name will also live on forever till Qiyamah"

Wassalaam

Edited by Zafaryab
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(salam)

Yaa Ali Madad

Following is the testimony of Qur’an on the conduct of the Muslims in the battle of Uhud:

Behold! You were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at any one, and the Apostle in your rear was calling you back. there did God give you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you, and for (the ill) that had befallen you. For God is well aware of All that you do. (Chapter 3; verse 153)

just find out the names of the pyare sahabis (Beloved sahabis who ran away from The battle of Uhad Plz

Visit this link plz for more details

http://al-islam.org/restatement/24.htm

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Hussiniyat Zinda bad

Yazidiyat Murdabad

Har Dam Ali Ali

Firoz Ali

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assalamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah

I developed some questions based on the slides.

2. Shia beliefs about Ali ibn Abi Talib:

* is the first Imam of the believers

-Is this meant as a statement of fact, or a statement of policy? That is, is this how things turned out because of circumstance, or is there religious significance in the continuationof the line of Shia Imams through the progeny of Ali?

-Why is the line of Shia Imams referred to here as continuing through the progeny of Imam Ali, instead of through Lady Fatimah the daughter of Prophet Muhammad?

* can display miracles.

-Is this statement in accordance with Shi`i beliefs regarding Prophethood, Imamat, and miracles?

Sunni believes Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali

* excelling ummah in all virtues was not necessary for a Caliph

* could not display miracles

* caliph must be selected by ijma`, nomination by previous caliph, shura (committee), military power

3. Is Imam or Caliph the ruler of a kingdom and chosen by the people?

-Do Sunnis believe that the Caliph is to be chosen by the people?

* Abbas said, "Woe to you, this is not kingship. It is Prophethood."

-What was the Arabic word used where the translation stated "Prophethood"? How does that statement apply to Imamate?

5. Shi`i Point of View

* Excelled Ummah in all virtues, as proved by the Qur'an in 86 ayat and accepted by both Shi`i and Sunni scholars

- What are some of those ayat?

- Do the qualified Sunni scholars really back up the Shi`i viewpoint the Qur'anic ayat in question?

* Declaration of Imamat be Prophet (a.s.) in the Ghadir incident, which is accepted by both Shi`i and Sunni scholars.

- Do the qualified Sunni scholars really back up the Shi`i viewpoint on the Ghadir incident?

6. Muslims scholars, Sunni and Shi`i are agreed that 5:55 was revealed in honour of `Ali.

- Do the qualified Sunni scholars really agree to this?

8. Hadith of Thaqalain is accepted by both Shi`i and Sunni scholars.

- The version of the Hadith of Thaqalayn that is familiar among Shi`i Muslims is not the same as that which is accepted by Sunni Muslims; and there are also variant interpretations.

9. Written Declaration of Imamat by Prophet (a.s.)

* In Sahih Muslim, there is a tradition narrated by ibn Abbas: Umar said, "The Apostle is talking from delirium. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us."

- Did the hadith in Sahih Muslim really attribute the word "delirium" to Umar according to the Arabic text?

* Shias believe that the phrases in the hadith of Calamatous Thursday link to the Hadith of Thaqalayn.

- Where has it been stated in the Shi`i texts that the events of Calamatous Thursday are related to the Hadith of Thaqalayn?

10. Sunni Point of View

* Even an ignorant and immoral person can become a Caliph

* Grabbing of power by any unfair means (power, military, might is right) is also justified

-Is this really the Sunni point of view according to the teachings of the qualified `ulama?

11. Sunnis say "Even the Prophets used to commit sins" and "There is nothing wrong in giving preference to an inferior person over a superior person."

- Is this really the Sunni position as laid out by the qualified `ulama?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I will appreciate if both Shi`i and Sunni muslims look through these questions that I developed after looking at JPGs o the slides that abrother was kind to send to me. I have some here for both.

-Abbie

2. Shia beliefs about Ali ibn Abi Talib:

* is the first Imam of the believers

-Is this meant as a statement of fact, or a statement of policy? That is, is this how things turned out because of circumstance, or is there religious significance in the continuationof the line of Shia Imams through the progeny of Ali?

-Why is the line of Shia Imams referred to here as continuing through the progeny of Imam Ali, instead of through Lady Fatimah the daughter of Prophet Muhammad?

* can display miracles.

-Is this statement in accordance with Shi`i beliefs regarding Prophethood, Imamat, and miracles?

Sunni believes Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali

* excelling ummah in all virtues was not necessary for a Caliph

* could not display miracles

* caliph must be selected by ijma`, nomination by previous caliph, shura (committee), military power

3. Is Imam or Caliph the ruler of a kingdom and chosen by the people?

-Do Sunnis believe that the Caliph is to be chosen by the people?

* Abbas said, "Woe to you, this is not kingship. It is Prophethood."

-What was the Arabic word used where the translation stated "Prophethood"? How does that statement apply to Imamate?

5. Shi`i Point of View

* Excelled Ummah in all virtues, as proved by the Qur'an in 86 ayat and accepted by both Shi`i and Sunni scholars

- What are some of those ayat?

- Do the qualified Sunni scholars really back up the Shi`i viewpoint the Qur'anic ayat in question?

* Declaration of Imamat be Prophet (a.s.) in the Ghadir incident, which is accepted by both Shi`i and Sunni scholars.

- Do the qualified Sunni scholars really back up the Shi`i viewpoint on the Ghadir incident?

6. Muslims scholars, Sunni and Shi`i are agreed that 5:55 was revealed in honour of `Ali.

- Do the qualified Sunni scholars really agree to this?

8. Hadith of Thaqalain is accepted by both Shi`i and Sunni scholars.

- The version of the Hadith of Thaqalayn that is familiar among Shi`i Muslims is not the same as that which is accepted by Sunni Muslims; and there are also variant interpretations.

9. Written Declaration of Imamat by Prophet (a.s.)

* In Sahih Muslim, there is a tradition narrated by ibn Abbas: Umar said, "The Apostle is talking from delirium. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us."

- Did the hadith in Sahih Muslim really attribute the word "delirium" to Umar according to the Arabic text?

* Shias believe that the phrases in the hadith of Calamatous Thursday link to the Hadith of Thaqalayn.

- Where has it been stated in the Shi`i texts that the events of Calamatous Thursday are related to the Hadith of Thaqalayn?

10. Sunni Point of View

* Even an ignorant and immoral person can become a Caliph

* Grabbing of power by any unfair means (power, military, might is right) is also justified

-Is this really the Sunni point of view according to the teachings of the qualified `ulama?

11. Sunnis say "Even the Prophets used to commit sins" and "There is nothing wrong in giving preference to an inferior person over a superior person."

- Is this really the Sunni position as laid out by the qualified `ulama?

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(salam)

Abaleada... I think I told you about the murajaats.. "http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/0.htm"... if you go thru them.. you will find the answers to your questions.. you don't even have to read the all the pages to know what is written in them.. just read the headings and you will find what you are looking for InshaAllah... you will also find even the sunni ulema supporting the claims of the shia3 scholars InshaAllah

Wassalaam

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Guest abaleada

(bismillah)

(salam)

Zafaryab,

First, I doubt the authenticity of the emetings that are described as having taken place in Murajat. Second, I did not ask those questions to get answers from any source, but in particular from the same source that gave us the PPT presentation. Third, my questions are to Shias and Sunnis alike.

So I say again, I hope that smoeone associated with the PPT presentation would be able to take a look at the questions that I posed.

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(salam)

I will try to be as brief as possible because this is all in the many books which I didn't myself read but was conveyed to me verbally (basing it again on logic and what makes sense)

2. Shia beliefs about Ali ibn Abi Talib:

* is the first Imam of the believers

-Is this meant as a statement of fact, or a statement of policy?

Its a FACT - Major belief of the shia3 (also included in the Kalima)

That is, is this how things turned out because of circumstance, or is there religious significance in the continuationof the line of Shia Imams through the progeny of Ali?

Another belief of the shia3 --> the ummah is never left without a guide who is appointed by Allah (swt). Therefore, every generation gets a guide and hence the Imams (as)

-Why is the line of Shia Imams referred to here as continuing through the progeny of Imam Ali, instead of through Lady Fatimah the daughter of Prophet Muhammad?

Imams have to be the progeny of BOTH Imam Ali (as) and Bibi Fatima (as). There were many other sons of Imam Ali (as) such as Hadrat Abbas (as) who was not an Imam (Hadrat Abbas (as) was the step brother of Imam Hussain (as) ).

* can display miracles.

-Is this statement in accordance with Shi`i beliefs regarding Prophethood, Imamat, and miracles?

Miricles have a very vague defination. To an illiterate person, knowledge can be a miricle in itself. Someone once told Imam Ali (as) that Prophet Soloman's (as) knowledge was so great that he used to walk on water. Imam Ali (as) replied that if Propohet Soloman's (as) knowledge was to be increased a little more, he could have walked on air. Shia3 believe that Imams (as) are the most knowledgable in any period of time therefore they can display what has come to be known as 'miracles'.

-What was the Arabic word used where the translation stated "Prophethood"? How does that statement apply to Imamate?

Imams are the PROTECTORS of the belief. If someone deviates, they guide them to the right path. I really don't know what the person really meant by 'Prophethood' so I am assuming that my point is sufficient.

5-10 I will try to answer later InshaAllah

About the "Caliph being inferior or superior" issue.. I think you need to look at the qualities that Allah(swt) pointed out in the iyat regarding Talut's (as) appointment as a leader over his people in sura Al-Baqra.

Wassalaam (peace be upon you)

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  • Advanced Member
Actually, sunnis believe in the first 11 imams of the twelvers, Ja'far (as) as well as the others.

However, they don't beleive that the imams claimed imamate or any special position in Islam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother, let me make one crucial thing clear that you are not merely expected to believe in them and respect the piety of the imams, but that it is an obligation for you to follow them. Keep in mind that the Prophet (pbuh) did not just require us to love his Ahlulbait, but he also wanted us to follow his Ahlulbait like we follow the holy Qoran. That is why he placed Ahlulbait and Qoran side by side and left them both as inheritance for the whole Ummah so that they never go astray. Please be aware of the difference between loving them and accepting them as guiders.

This very Thaqaleyn was narrated both in Shia and Sunni sources with different chains which is the evidence that this hadith was being repeated by Mohammad (pbuh) many times and in different locations.

And even if you doubt about the infallibility of the imams, your are obviously requested through the prophets will to obey and follow them. Otherwise you will be in the wrong direction just like Prophet (pbuh) stated : "......and you will never go astray!"

So please don't come up with your usual refrain that you sunni brothers love and respect the imams as well. Contrary to the Prophets (pbuh) will, the imams of the holy Ahlulbait are something that you sunni brothers just remember from debate to debate and nothing more :(

Truly they have claimed the imamat, otherwise Mohammad (pbuh) would not place them near the holy Qoran and appoint them as guiders to the whole ummah till the doomsday. If they were not claiming the imamat,then they would never name a successor which is for sure they did.

It is really amazing to see that our sunni brothers take only one of the two precious things left by Mohammad's (pbuh) and completely ignore the other one. No one on earth can claim that the Ahlulsunnah is following the Ahlulbait. If it is not so, brother then tell me at least one imam of the Ahlulbayt whom you are following ?

Do you really think that we were just ordered to love Ahlulbait and forget them afterwards? It makes me deeply think about the umayyad's mentality who killed Hussain (ra) and the majority of Ahlulbait and sent salawat in their prayers to the very Prophet (pbuh) whose Grandchild they have killed moments ago.

I know that our nowadays sunni brothers claim that they are not Umayya supporters. But although their denial what they don't know is thet their current teachings and thaughts are the harvest which was shapened through the ruthless politics of the Umayyads and Abbasi dynastiy that has commenced in Karbala.

The Tyranny who feared the family of the Prophet and their shia very much poisoned the imams, throw them to dungeons, cursed their ancestors in Hutba, killed their followers for centuries and prevented them (except imam jafar) to teach the shariah of Mohammad SAV.

Very sad to see Sunni brothers waisting their precious time and get stuck in the methodology of Shia hadith, fiqh, beliefs etc. trying hard to dig out some points to use against Shia while they totaly ignore the above mentioned facts :(

And Allah knows best,

regards,

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(salam)

Read the Imamat.ppt to get the over view of Differences...

Every Sunni who reads it with a true heart would become Shia...

If any queries about the authenticity just post here and I'll reply from sunni Books...

I hope Sunni Brother's Soon return to truth:)

Chao

Ali The Great

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah you are right it is only shias opinion.

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