Our attitudes towards sunnis.

[Muhammed Ali]

:)

in al-Kafi, it is narrated from Zurarah that he said: "I visited Imam Muhammad ibne 'Ali al-Baqir (as) with my brother Humran, or with my other brother Bukahir. I said to the Imam, ' We measure people with a measuring tape: Whoever is a Shi'a like ourselves, whether among the descendants of 'Ali or otherwise, we forge a bond of friendship with him (as a Muslim and one who will achieve salvation), and whoever is opposed to our creed, we dissociate from him (as a misguided person and one who will not achieve salvation).'"

The Imam said, "Zurarah! God's word is more truthful than yours; if what you say is correct, then what about God's words where He says, 'Except the powerless among the men, women, and children who find no way out nor find a path?' What about those who are referred to God's command? What about those regarding whom God says, 'They mixed good deeds and other, evil deeds?' What happened to the people of the heights? Who, then, are the ones whose hearts are to be inclined?"

Hammad, in his narration of this event from Zurarah , narrates that he said, "At this point the Imam and I began to argue. Both of us raised our voices, such that those outside the house heard us. "

Jamal ibne Darraj narrates from Zurarah in this event that the Imam said, "Zurarah! [God has made it] incumbent upon Himself that He take the misguided (not the unbelievers and deniers) to Heaven. " *

* al kafi volume2  Page 382.

Also in al-Kafi, Hashim ibne al-Barld (Sahib al-Barid) said: "Muhammad ibne Muslim, Abul Khattab, and I were together in one place. Abul Khattab asked, "What is your belief regarding one who doesn't know the affair of Imamate?" I said, "In my view he or she is a unbeliever. "Abul Khattab said, "As long as the evidence is not complete for him or her, he or she is not a unbeliever; if the evidence is complete and still he or she doesn't recognize it, then he or she is an unbeliever. " Muhammad ibne Muslim said, "Glory be to God! If he or she doesn't recognize the Imam and doesn't show obstinacy or denial, how can he or she be considered an unbeliever? No, one who doesn't know, if he doesn't show denial, is not an unbeliever. " Thus, the three of us had three opposing beliefs.

"When the Hajj season came, I went for Hajj and went to Imam as-Sadiq (as). I told him of the discussion between the three of us and asked the Imam his view.  The Imam replied, "I will reply to this question when the other two are also present. I and the three of you shall meet tonight in Mina near the middle jamarah.""

That night, the three of us went there. The Imam, leaning on a cushion, began questioning us."

"What do you say about the servants, womenfolk, and members of your own families? Do they not bear witness to the unity of God?"

I replied, "Yes."

"Do they not bear witness to the prophecy of the Messenger?"

"Yes."

"Do they recognize the Imamate and wilayah (Divinely-appointed authority) like yourselves?"

"No."

"So what is their position in your view?"

"My view is that whoever does not recognize the Imam is an unbeliever."

"Glory be to God! Haven't you seen the people of the streets and markets? Haven't you seen the water-bearers?"

"Yes, I have seen and I see them."

"Do they not pray? Do they not fast? Do they not perform Hajj? Do they not bear witness to the unity of God and the prophethood of the Messenger?"

"Well, do they recognize the Imam as you do?"

"No."

"So what is their condition?"

"My view is that whoever doesn't recognize the Imam is a unbeliever."

"Glory be to God! Do you not see the state of the Ka'bah and the circumambulation of these people? Don't you see how the people of Yemen cling to the curtains of the Ka'bah?"

"Yes."

"Don't they profess monotheism and believe in the Messenger? Don't they pray, fast, and perform Hajj?"

"Yes."

"Well, do they recognize the Imam as you do?"

"No."

"What is your belief about them?"

"In my view, whoever doesn't recognize the Imam is an unbeliever."

"Glory be to God! This belief is the belief of the Kharijites."

At that point the Imam said, "Now, do you wish me to inform you of the truth?"

Hashim, who in the words of the late Faydh al-Kashani, knew that the Imam's view was in opposition to his own belief, said, "No."

The Imam said, "It is very bad for you to say something of your own accord that you have not heard from us. "

Hashim later said to the others: "I presumed that the Imam affirmed the view of Muhammad ibne Muslim and wished to bring us to his view.

al kafi Volume 2, chapter on deviation (Dhalal), Page 401

Edited November 4, 2004 by Muhammed Ali

[tahasyed]

Thank you very much bro !! :)

May Allah reward you for your efforts to unite the Muslim brethren.

[vsg]

BUT unfortunatly, those for whom this post is intended, it would have little effect on

[Jat]

Hammad, in his narration of this event from Zurarah , narrates that he said, "At this point the Imam and I began to argue. Both of us raised our voices, such that those outside the house heard us.

Its astonishing that Zurarah argued with Imam! ! ! And raised his voice till he was heard outside the house!

And then look at this one

At that point the Imam said, "Now, do you wish me to inform you of the truth?"

Hashim, who in the words of the late Faydh al-Kashani, knew that the Imam's view was in opposition to his own belief, said, "No."

This guy openly refuses even to hear his own Imams view that Sunnis are Muslim.

That just shows me real Shi'i behavior with Imam at same time beleiving that those who do not beleive in Imam is unbeleiver !

Shocking :!!!:

[vsg]

^ dude u made no sense there

[Allah's slave]

lol

[Jat]

Ha

Can;t see ur face

[Orion]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Jazak Allah Khair Brother Muhammed Ali,

Indeed we consider our Ahly Sunnat brothers and sisters as MUSLIMS.

WS

[Baatil Ka Kaatil]

Indeed we consider our Ahly Sunnat brothers and sisters as MUSLIMS.

Ditto :).

[Muhammed Ali]

Its astonishing that Zurarah argued with Imam! ! ! And raised his voice till he was heard outside the house!

And then look at this one

This guy openly refuses even to hear his own Imams view that Sunnis are Muslim.

That just shows me real Shi'i  behavior with Imam at same time beleiving that those who do not beleive in Imam is unbeleiver !

Shocking :!!!:

yes it reminds us of those people who raised their voices infront of the prophet and questioned his prophethood

[YA ABU TALIB]

LOL! MUHAMMAD ALI. YOU ARE ONE HILARIOUS GUY. YOU WANT ME TO CONSIDER SUNNI'S AS "BROTHERS"? I HAVE ONLY POSTED THE FOLLOWING DUA 30 HOUSAND TIMES, BUT MAYBE U MISSED IT. SO HERE IT IS AGAIN:

In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful.

O Allah! Curse the two idols of Quraish and their two magicinas, their two rebellious people, their two accusers and their two daughters. Rebuke them, they have consumed Your sustenance and have denied Your obligations, both have discarded Your commands, have rejected Your revelation, have disobeyed Your Prophet, hav destroyed Your religion, have distorted Your book, have made Your laws ineffective, have declared Your obligatory actions as incorrect, have disbelieved in Your signs, have oppressed Your friends, have loved Your enemies, have spread corruption among Your people, have made Your world occur loses.

O Allah! Send Your curses on them and their helpers as they have ruined the house of Your prophet, have dug the door of his house, broken the roof, have brought down the walls, have made the skies, the ground, have destroyed its inhabitants, have killed their supporters have put to death, their children have deserted his pulpit by his successors of knowledge, have desired his prophethood, have ascribed a partner to their Lord, thus consider both of their sins to be great, and make their abode in 'saqar' forever, and do you know what is 'saqar?'

It leaves nothing, nor let anything remain. O Allah, send Your chastisement on them to the extent of the sins of every disobedient, and the covering of truth, and all the pupils where they have gone, and the believer whom they have harmed and the disbeliever whom they have loved,

and to the number of pious people whom they have troubled, and whom they have driven out of their cities, and helped the disbelievers, and the Imam on whom they were cruel and have changed the obligatory laws, and have destroyed the practise of the Holy Prophet, and whatever evils they have concealed, the blood which they shed, have changed the goodness and have altered the commands, have created disbelief, or the lie for which they have cheated, the inheritance which they have plundered, and stopped the booties from them and have consumed the prohibited wealth,

and that 'Khums' (the fifth part) which they considered as permitted for them, and that evil whose foundation were put, and that cruelty which they made common, that oppression, which they spread, those promises, which they dishonoured, those covenant which they broke, those lawful which is termed as unlawful, and that unlawful which is termed as lawful,

that hypocrisy which they have concealed in the hearts, and to the amount of treachery which they bore in their hearts, and those stomach which they have split open, and that 'pahlu' which they broke, and that door which they broke-opened, and those gatherings which they dispersed and those degraded whom they gave honour, and those honourable wom they insulted,

and by the number of rights which they have usurped, and the order of Imam which they opposed, bestow Your wrath on them to the extent of the atrocities.

O Allah! Your curses on them to the extent of alteration in Quran and covering the truth, rendering the will, worthless, and breaking the promises, and declaring all the claims as void, refusing all the allegiances, presenting excuses, introducing breach of trust, climbing of hills ande to the nuer of vessel which they turned upside down and all that defects which they possessed. Bestow Your curses on them.

O Allah curse those two, secretly and openly, such a beating which is forever continuous, nonstop and innumberable. Such a whipping which commences in the morning but does not ends at night.

Such a beating should be on those tyrants, and their helpers, their assistance, their friends and their lovers, those attracted to them and those who acknowledge their deeds, those who present proof for them, and those who follow their words, and those who approve their actions.

(Then recite four times).

O Allah! Send such a harsh chastisement upon them, that the dwellers of Hell start screaming, O Lord of the Universe accept this prayer from me.

UNITE WITH THIS! IF YOU SUNNIS CAN ACCEPT THE WILAYAT OF AMEERULMO'MINEEN (as) THEN NOT ONLY WILL I MAKE UNITY WITH YOU, BUT I WILL GIVE MY LIFE FOR YOU. IF YOU REFUSE THE WILAYAT OF AMEERULMO'MINEEN (as) ON THE OTHER HAND, THEN YOU ARE MY OPEN ENEMY, YOU WILL GO TO HELL NOSE FIRST, AND BE PUNISHED THERE FOR EVER!

WHY DO YOU DENY THE WILAYAT OF ALI IBN ABI TALIB (as)?

TILL THIS DAY YOU SUNNIS ARE FOLLOWING YOUR MASTERS AND STILL NOT GIVING THE AHL AL BAIT THEIR RIGHTS.

AS FOR YOU "SHIAS" THAT WANT UNITY, TAKE OFF YOUR BLIND FOLD AND LOOK INTO WHO YOU ARE TRYING TO UNITE WITH!

MAY I AGAIN QUOTE MY FAVRIOUTE VERSE FROM DUA SANAME QURAISH:

O Allah curse those two, secretly and openly, such a beating which is forever continuous, nonstop and innumberable. Such a whipping which commences in the morning but does not ends at night.

Such a beating should be on those tyrants, and their helpers, their assistance, their friends and their lovers, those attracted to them and those who acknowledge their deeds, those who present proof for them, and those who follow their words, and those who approve their actions.

[sana_abbas]

ameen

[abeer_xyz]

If it is Shiaism what Muhammed Ali said, let everyone know that I am a Shia too. But my forefathers from both Sunnis and Shias made it very difficult for me to know what exactly Shiaism is.

I need some more clarifications.

I Believe Ali was the Imam yet I respect Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

I believe fighting against Ummul Muminin Aiysha’s army was good but any disrespect to her is bad.

I believe fighting Muawyya was good but cursing him is not befitting of a Muslim.

Do I still have the right to claim myself a shia of Ali?

[zainabia]

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Jazak Allah brother Muhammad Ali. May Allah bless you and your family. Amin.

Brother Abu Talib, the Dua of Sanam-e-Quraish deals only with those particular people, to whom Truth was made clear and afterwards they rejected it.

So, my humble opinion is this that this Dua doesn't applied on those who are not aware of Truth.

Was Salam.

[YA ABU TALIB]

Brother Abu Talib, the Dua of Sanam-e-Quraish deals only with those particular people, to whom Truth was made clear and afterwards they rejected it.

Are you saying that the following verse has NOTHING to do with them???

Such a beating should be on those tyrants, and their helpers, their assistance, their friends and THEIR LOVERS, those ATTRACTED TO THEM and those who acknowledge their deeds, those who present proof for them, and those who follow their words, and those who approve their actions.

MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT USE YOUR OWN OPINION WHEN IT COMES TO THIS. OUR OPINIONS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

ALLAHS CURSE IS ON THOSE WHO DENY THE WILAYAT OF AMEER UL MO'MINEEN (as)!!!

[tahasyed]

If it is Shiaism what Muhammed Ali said, let everyone know that I am a Shia too. But my forefathers from both Sunnis and Shias made it very difficult for me to know what exactly Shiaism is.

I need some more clarifications.

I Believe Ali was the Imam yet I respect Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

I believe fighting against Ummul Muminin Aiysha’s army was good but any disrespect to her is bad.

I believe fighting Muawyya was good but cursing him is not befitting of a Muslim.

Do I still have the right to claim myself a shia of Ali?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'd be a shia but not a rafidhi. :)

[Socrates]

I Believe Ali was the Imam yet I respect Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

Respect for oppressors is not acceptable in Islam as per Qur'an.

I believe fighting against Ummul Muminin Aiysha’s army was good but any disrespect to her is bad.

Disrespect and bad language to ANY wife of the Prophet pbuh is bad, but la'nah is neither disrespect nor swearing, it is merely a dua to Allah to deprive someone of mercy because of their actions. It is for Allah to decide, since he will be giving or depriving someone of mercy.

I believe fighting Muawyya was good but cursing him is not befitting of a Muslim.

Again, for la'n see above, and there is no doubt about Mu'awiya's oppression (both in Siffeen and to the followers of Imam Ali (as) in general).

[Jat]

Are you saying that the following verse has NOTHING to do with them???

MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT USE YOUR OWN OPINION WHEN IT COMES TO THIS. OUR OPINIONS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.

ALLAHS CURSE IS ON THOSE WHO DENY THE WILAYAT OF AMEER UL MO'MINEEN (as)!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since u derive ur argument from this DUA,why don't u tell the chain of narrations.This may be all a forgery.

[YA ABU TALIB]

Reference???

go to duas.org

look at the duas of Ameer ul Mo'mineen AS. there u will find a bunch of Imam Ali (as)'s duas.

its pretty funny, when someone can't handle something, they start questioning its authenticity!!!

[Jat]

I asked for chain of narrations , not , for dua.org !

And for us Sunnis we beleive these traditions to be forgeries,like u beleive in many sunni traditions to b forgeries.

Edited November 5, 2004 by Jat

[YA ABU TALIB]

MUHAMMAD ALI, I INVITE YOU TO HAQ ALI'S NEW POST, I ALSO INVITE ALL U OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE DOUBTS ON CURSING AND DOUBTS ON IMAM ALI (as).

ACCEPT THIS INVITATION!

[M59]

I asked for chain of narrations , not , for dua.org !

And for us Sunnis we beleive these traditions to be forgeries,like u beleive in many sunni traditions to b forgeries

In my opinion, Sunnism is the Forgery, Islam reduced to Hijaz Arab Tribalism, used for conquest and esoteric material expansionism, I ask you what kind of leaders were the first three, you cannot show me ONE book of Dua or supplications-leave alone Quranic guidence, needless to assert-ANY (ZERO) Spiritual guidence from the three userpurs, Great leaders and Successors to the Prophet (SAL)'s Islam-NO SPIRITUAL GUIDENCE????? If it was about material conquest then hey, Bush is the best Umar Ibn Khattab since then!!

[Jat]

Dude...All spirtual guidance came from Allah and only and only thru Prophet Muhammad saw.

Our articles of faith are derived diractly from Quran,unlike yours which are based on Forged narrations.

[picard]

jat, being on this forum for some time u should know that most people here can bring up a dozen hadiths directly refuting what you just said. Must we go through that cycle every two weaks?

[Muhammed Ali]

MUHAMMAD ALI, I INVITE YOU TO HAQ ALI'S NEW POST, I ALSO INVITE ALL U OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE DOUBTS ON CURSING AND DOUBTS ON IMAM ALI (as).

ACCEPT THIS INVITATION!

wont you even try presenting an analysis of the narrations i posted?

now for that dua:

Such a beating should be on those tyrants, and their helpers, their assistance, their friends and their lovers, those attracted to them and those who acknowledge their deeds, those who present proof for them, and those who follow their words, and those who approve their actions.

As sister zainabia pointed out this dua does not refer to the regular unknowing sunni. Think about when this dua was first recited. Doesnt it have a context? Anyhow the narrations of the imams do not allow us to call all sunnis kaffirs. Those who are the stubborn rejecters of the wilayah of imam Ali after the truth has undoubtedly come to them, may be kaffir but we cant go around calling other muslims kaffir especially becasue the imams forbade it.

So tell me what does unity mean to you?

Edited November 5, 2004 by Muhammed Ali

[vsg]

ok u know what once agin even if this dua is authentic it is a dua, and no one is stopping u to say this dua, as this is a dua of someone who has been oppressed against those who opressed him, it is not a surmon or a letter of Imam Ali (a.s) instructing his followers to hate sunnis.......IF u guys did not waste so much time in blind hatred and would have tryed to read more about the life of Imam Ali and his work in the time of the first 3 Califs, u guys would have known better for sure.......

[145_turbo_16V]

Salamu Alaikum,

Ya Abu Talib,

Could you let us know who your marja is?

Thanks.

[vsg]

^ lol i have a feeling he would give a sig classic reply to this one ;)

[Haqq Ali]

Salamu Alaikum,

Ya Abu Talib,

Could you let us know who your marja is?

Thanks.

Why in world do you have to know who is Marja is???

What the heck is that going to prove.

I guess once you find out who his Marga is then you'll put his Marga under arrest. or exile him.......

Why do you ask such stupid questoins..... go drive a car...

I WOULD REALLY LOVE TO KNOW WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU FIND OUT WHO HIS MARJA IS???????

[Baatil Ka Kaatil]

(salam),

UNITE WITH THIS! IF YOU SUNNIS CAN ACCEPT THE WILAYAT OF AMEERULMO'MINEEN  THEN NOT ONLY WILL I MAKE UNITY WITH YOU, BUT I WILL GIVE MY LIFE FOR YOU. IF YOU REFUSE THE WILAYAT OF AMEERULMO'MINEEN  ON THE OTHER HAND, THEN YOU ARE MY OPEN ENEMY, YOU WILL GO TO HELL NOSE FIRST, AND BE PUNISHED THERE FOR EVER!

WHY DO YOU DENY THE WILAYAT OF ALI IBN ABI TALIB ?

TILL THIS DAY YOU SUNNIS ARE FOLLOWING YOUR MASTERS AND STILL NOT GIVING THE AHL AL BAIT THEIR RIGHTS.

AS FOR YOU "SHIAS" THAT WANT UNITY, TAKE OFF YOUR BLIND FOLD AND LOOK INTO WHO YOU ARE TRYING TO UNITE WITH!

MAY I AGAIN QUOTE MY FAVRIOUTE VERSE FROM DUA SANAME QURAISH:

*Laughs*

People like you make me SICK. How can you condemn someone who does not have the knowledge of what you speak about?

You know I'm all for tabarra - All the people here know that, but your blind hatred makes me want to puke. If you hold the same sort of hatred the Wahabis hold for us, for the same reasons, your no worse than them. Don't you see? Tabarra upon people who deny the wilayat knowingly is another thing but we are talkin about those who don't even know jack about Shias.

My mum is a Sunni. Shall i go get a sledgehammer and split her head open screaming die MOFO die? Or shall i label my dad a FAASIQ for marrying her?

Get real. Step out of your world of hate and into a world where peace IS an option.