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In the Name of God بسم الله

Who killed Fatima?

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(salam)

According to my readings after the death of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, the second caliph came to Hazrat Ali's (as) house and while standing outside.. they asked harshly to send Hazrat Ali (as) outside. In response Bibi Fatima (ra) told them that he wasnt home.. but the second Caliph said that was a lie... and he broke down the door. Bibi Fatima (ra) was standing right behind it.. and the door fell on her. Due to that.. i dont know how exactly the door fell, but her ribs broke. She was pregnant at the time with her 3rd son Mohsin, but due to this unfortunate incident he was not born.

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(salam)

All the references below are narrations from Sunni sources which describe the story of last days of Bibi Fatima, and her martydom.

(bismillah)

(1) Abu Ja'far Baladhuri Ahmad Bin Yahya Bin Jabir Baghdadi, one of your reliable traditionists and historians, writes in his History that when Abu Bakr called Ali to swear allegiance, Ali refused. Abu Bakr sent Umar who went with a torch to set fire to Ali's house. Fatima came to the door and said: "O son of Khattab! Have you come to set my house on fire?" He said: "Yes, this is more effective than anything your father did."

(2) Izzu'd-Din Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, and Muhammad Bin Jarir Tabari, narrate that Umar went to the door of Ali's house with Usayd Bin Khuza'i, Salama Bin Aslam and a group of men. Umar then called out, "Come out! Or else I'll set your house on fire!"

(3) Ibn Khaziba reports in his Kitab-e-Gharrar from Zaid Bin Aslam, who said: "I was one of those who went with Umar with torches to Fatima's door. When Ali and his men refused to offer allegiance, Umar said to Fatima, "Let whoever is inside come out. Otherwise, I will set the house on fire along with whoever is inside." Ali, Hasan, Husain, Fatima, and a party of the Prophet's companions, and the Bani Hashim were inside. Fatima said: "Would you set my house on fire along with me and my sons?" He said: "Yes, by Allah, if they do not come out and pay allegiance to the caliph of the Prophet."

(4) Ibn Abd Rabbih, one of your famous ulema, writes in his Iqdu'l-Farid, Part III, page 63, that Ali and Abbas were sitting in Fatima's house. Abu Bakr told Umar: "Go and bring these people. If they refuse to come, fight them." So Umar came to Fatima's house with torches. Fatima came to the door of the house and said: "Have you come to burn our house?" He said: "Yes..." and so on.

(5) Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali in his Shahre Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume I, page 134, quoting from Jauhari's Kitab-e-Saqifa, writes in detail about the affair of the Saqifa-e-Bani Sa'ad. "The Bani Hashim and Ali were assembled in Ali's house. Zubair was also with them since he considered himself one of the Bani Hashim. Ali used to say, 'Zubair was always with us until his sons were grown up. They turned him against us.' Umar went to Fatima's house with a group of men. Usayd and Salma were also with him. Umar asked them to come out and swear allegiance. They refused. Zubair drew his sword and came out. Umar said: 'Get hold of this dog.' Salma Bin Aslam snatched the sword and threw it against the wall. Then they dragged Ali to Abu Bakr. Other Bani Hashim also followed him and were waiting to see what Ali would do. Ali was saying that he was the servant of Allah and the brother of the Holy Prophet. Nobody listened to him. They took him to Abu Bakr, who asked him to take the oath of allegiance to him. Ali said: "I am the most deserving person for this position, and I will not pay allegiance to you. It is incumbent on you to pay allegiance to me. You took this right from the Ansar based on your relationship with the Prophet. I also, on the same ground, protest against you. So be just. If you fear Allah, accept my right, as the Ansar did yours. Otherwise, you should acknowledge that you are intentionally oppressing me.' Umar said: 'We will not leave you until you swear allegiance.' Ali said: 'You have conspired well together. Today you support him, so that tomorrow he may return the caliphate to you. I swear by Allah that I will not comply with your request and will not take the oath of allegiance (to Abu Bakr). He should pay allegiance to me.' Then he turned his face toward the people and said: 'O Muhajirs! Fear Allah. Do not take away the right of authority of Muhammad's family. That right has been ordained by Allah. Do not remove the rightful person from his place. By Allah, we Ahle Bait have greater authority in this matter than you have. There is a man among you who has the knowledge of the Book of Allah (The Qur'an), the Sunna of the Prophet , and the laws of our Religion. I swear by Allah that we possess all these things. So do not follow yourselves lest you should stray from the truth.'" Ali returned home without offering allegiance and secluded himself in his house until Fatima died. Thereafter, he was forced to offer allegiance.

(6) Abu Muhammad Abdullah Bin Muslim Bin Qutayba Bin Umar Al-Bahili Dinawari, who was one of your ulema and an official Qazi of the city of Dinawar, writes in his famous Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafate Raghibin wa Daulate Bani Umayya, known as Al-Imama wa's-Siyasa, Volume I, page 13: "When Abu Bakr learned that a group hostile to him had assembled in Ali's house, he sent Umar to them. When Umar shouted to Ali to come out and to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, they all refused to come out. Umar collected wood and said 'I swear by Allah, Who has my life in His control, either you will come out, or I will set the house with all those in it on fire.' People said: 'O Abu Hafsa! Fatima is also present in the house.' He said: 'Let her be there. I will set fire to the house.' So all of them came out and offered allegiance, except Ali, who said: 'I have taken a vow that until I have compiled the Qur'an, I will neither go out of the house nor will I put on full dress.' Umar did not accept this, but the plaintive lamentation of Fatima and the snubbing by others, forced him to go back to Abu Bakr. Umar urged him to force Ali to swear allegiance. Abu Bakr sent Qanfaz several times to summon Ali, but he was always disappointed. At last Umar, with a group of people went to the door of Fatima's house. When Fatima heard their voices, she cried out 'O my father, Prophet of Allah! What tortures we are subjected to by the son of Khattab and the son of Abi Quhafa!' When the people heard Fatima's lamentation, some went back with their hearts broken, but Umar remained there with some others until finally they dragged Ali from the house. They took Ali to Abu Bakr, and told him to swear allegiance to him. Ali said: 'If I do not swear allegiance what will you do to me?' They said: 'We swear by Allah that we will break your neck.' Ali said: 'Will you kill the servant of Allah and the brother of His Prophet?' Umar said: 'You are not the brother of the Prophet of Allah.' While all this was going on, Abu Bakr kept silent. Umar then asked Abu Bakr whether he (Umar) was not following Abu Bakr's orders in this matter. Abu Bakr said that so long as Fatima was alive he would not force Ali to swear allegiance to him. Ali then managed to reach the grave of the Prophet, where, wailing and crying, he told the Prophet what Aaron had told his brother, Moses, as recorded in the Holy Qur'an: 'Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well nigh slain me.' (7:150)

After narrating this affair in detail, Abu Muhammad Abdullah Bin Qutayba says that Ali did not swear allegiance and returned home. Later Abu Bakr and Umar went to Fatima's house to placate her and to seek her pardon. She said: "Allah be my witness that you two have offended me. In every prayer I curse you and will continue cursing you until I see my father and complain against you."

(7) Ahmad Bin Abdu'l-Aziz is one of your ulema. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid writes about him in the following words: "He was a man of learning, a traditionist, a great literary figure." He writes in his Kitab-e-Saqifa and Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali also quotes from him in his Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume I, page 9, on the authority of Abi'l-Aswad, who said: "A group of the companions and prominent Muhajirin expressed their indignation at Abu Bakr's caliphate and asked why they were not consulted. Also Ali and Zubair expressed their anger, refused to swear allegiance, and retired to Fatima's house. Fatima cried aloud and made solemn entreaties, but to no effect. They took away Ali's and Zubair's swords and hurled them against the wall, breaking them. Then they dragged them to the mosque to force them to swear allegiance."

(8) Jauhari reports from Salma Bin Abdu'r-Rahman that when Abu Bakr heard that Ali, Zubair, and a party of the Bani Hashim were assembled in Fatima's house, he sent Umar for them. Umar went to the door of Fatima's house and shouted, "Come out, otherwise, I swear I will set your house on fire!"

(9) Jauhari, according to Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in his Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume II, page 19, narrates on the authority of Sha'bi: "When Abu Bakr heard about the gathering of the Bani Hashim in Ali's house, he said to Umar: 'Both you and Khalid go and bring Ali and Zubair to me so that they can take the oath of allegiance.' So Umar entered Fatima's house and Khalid stayed outside. Umar said to Zubair 'What is this sword?' He replied, 'I have acquired it for allegiance to Ali.'

Umar snatched the sword and hurled it at the stone inside the house and broke it. Then he brought him out to Khalid. He came back into the house, where there were many people, including Miqdad, and all the Bani Hashim. Addressing Ali, he said: 'Get up! I'm taking you to Abu Bakr. You must pay allegiance to him.' Ali refused. Umar dragged him to Khalid. Khalid and Umar forced him along the road which was packed to capacity with men who witnessed this scene. When Fatima saw Umar's behavior, she, along with many women of the Bani Hashim (who had come to console her), came out. They were lamenting and wailing with high-pitched cries. Fatima went to the mosque where she said to Abu Bakr: 'How soon have you sacked the Ahle Bait of the Prophet of Allah. I swear by Allah, I will not talk with Umar until I see Allah.' Fatima showed her extreme disapproval of Abu Bakr and did not speak to him for the rest of her life." (See Sahih Bukhari, Part V and VII).

(10) Abu Walid Muhibu'd-Din Muhammad Bin Muhammad Bin Ash-Shahna Al-Hanafi (died 815 A.H.), one of your leading ulema writes in his Rauzatu'l-Manazir Fi Khabaru'l-Awa'il wa'l-Awakhir, in connection with the Saqifa affair: "Umar came to Ali's house prepared to set it on fire with all its inmates. Umar said: 'Enter into what the community has entered.'"

(11) Tabari, in his Ta'rikh Volume II, page 443, reports from Ziyad Bin Kalbi that "Talha, Zubair, and some of the Muhajirin were at Ali's house. Umar Bin Khattab went there and demanded that they come out. If they did not, he said, he would set the house on fire."

(12) Ibn Shahna, in Hashiyya-e-Kamil of Ibn Athir, Volume XI, page 112, writes in connection with the Saqifa that: "Some of the Prophet's companions, and the Bani Hashim, Zubair, Atba Bin Abi Lahab, Khalid Bin Sa'id Bin As, Miqdad Bin Aswad Kindi, Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr Ghifari, Ammar Bin Yasir, Bara'a Bin Azib, and Ubai Bin Ka'b refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr. They assembled in Ali's house. Umar Bin Khattab went there intending to burn down the house. Fatima protested to him. Umar said: 'Enter where all others have entered.'"

These are but a sample of the many historical facts recorded by your own historians. This affair was so commonly known that the poets of old mentioned it. One of your poets, Hafiz Ibrahim of Egypt, says in a poem in praise of Umar: "No other person but Abu Hafsa (father of Umar) could have the courage of addressing the chief of the Adnan Clan (Ali) and his comrades, saying: 'If you fail to pay allegiance, I will set your house on fire and will not leave any inmate of the house alive, even Fatima herself.'"

You should read Kitab-e-Isbatu'l-Wasiyya, compiled by Abi'l-Hasan Ali Bin Husain Mas'udi, author of Muruju'dh-Dhahab. He wrote in great detail about the events of that day: "They surrounded Ali and burned the door of his house. They dragged him out of the house and pressed the best of the women, Fatima, between the door and the wall so forcefully that Muhsin, her unborn son, died of miscarriage." The Shias have not concocted these things. What occurred has been preserved in the pages of history. The miscarriage is a fact.

You may also refer to Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume III, page 351. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid wrote that he told his teacher, Abu Ja'far Naqib, that when the Prophet was told that Hubbar Bin Aswad had attacked his daughter Zainab's litter with a lance, because of which Zainab suffered a miscarriage, the Prophet allowed him to be put to death. Abu Ja'far said: 'Had the Prophet of Allah been alive, he would have surely ordered the death penalty for him also who had frightened Fatima so much that her child, Muhsin, died in miscarriage.'

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@ Samk5000: Sunni sources does not mean 'authentic', not for sunnis, nor for shias (obviously).

The majority of ahadith in the sunni and shia world are fabricated. Especially when they deal with emotional subjects like this. That this the reason it would be greatly appreciated if people could share either the isnad of narrations, or what scholars have to say about them.

please people no cursing and lets keep this orderly as possible or it will be closed.

Jazakallah bro AbdulHujjah. :)

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I don't think all of those hadith from various narrators could have all coincidentally been fabricated. Some might be, "all" would be doubtful. This is the first time I have heard a Sunni (if you are a Sunni) admitting that there are some false hadiths in Sunni books, and I congratulate you for that. Brother, may I ask if you hold the same opinion about Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim? Just curious, no offense meant. I also admit there are some bad hadiths in Shia books, but it becomes more difficult to call a hadith "false" if it is narrated multiple times (albeit, in slightly different forms) in both Sunni and Shia books, by many respected historians.

Nomatter which way you cut it atrocities are atrocities regardless of who committed them. As for cursing - as a habit I generally refrain from it. I couldn't figure out who was cursing in this topic, though.

By the way, we still have not discussed the actual topic of this thread, which was who killed Fatima (ra) , I still have not heard anyone mentioning the circumstances of her actual death, only the broken ribs and the burning of the house. Before this topic gets totally off-track.... How did she die?

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(bismillah)

Br. Tahasyed,

Do you personally believe that the attack on the house of Fatima (as) took place ? Or do you think it was fabricated ? If so why was it fabricated ? And why does a great sunni scholar like shibli Nu'mani (shams-al-ulema) in his book al Farooq Umar the Great state that Umar did threaten to set fire to the house of Al-Zahra (as) ?

Wassalaam

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(bismillah)

Br. Tahasyed,

Do you personally believe that the attack on the house of Fatima (as) took place ? Or do you think it was fabricated ? If so why was it fabricated ? And why does a great sunni scholar like shibli Nu'mani (shams-al-ulema) in his book al Farooq Umar the Great state that Umar did threaten to set fire to the house of Al-Zahra (as) ?

Wassalaam

That authority of such claims is weak...No solid proof.. (!) <_<

May Allah (swt) guide us all.

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(bismillah)

Br. Tahasyed,

Do you personally believe that the attack on the house of Fatima (as) took place ? Or do you think it was fabricated ? If so why was it fabricated ? And why does a great sunni scholar like shibli Nu'mani (shams-al-ulema) in his book al Farooq Umar the Great state that Umar did threaten to set fire to the house of Al-Zahra (as)  ?

Wassalaam

(salam)

Personally, I beleive that he did threaten to burn down the house. And that's not even going against his personality or anything, lol...

No, but seriously.. I do think that he threatened to do it, after all, he was too hot-blooded.

But the problem comes to whether he actually did it or not. And if he did, then what *exactly* happened? I am sceptical about the reports in this particular area because it's quite apparent that each report is more dramatically and emotinally composed to 'soften' the reader/hearer of the narration. When this happens, I seriously start doubting the narration's authenticity.

One narration would mention a whip, the next would mention 2 whips, dipped in hot oil with razors attached to the end. One narration will talk about a tiny splinter lightly scratching Fatima (as). The next will talk about a 2-inch rusty blunt nail that went *through* her body puncturing her lungs.

and so on....

And that's why I want to know what's the *most authentic* version of the story, because each one differs from the rest. Who knows, it could be the most dramatic one.

And that's why I requested to know the chain of narration, or the opinion of scholars, someone like Sheikh Sudooq or Tusi.

don't think all of those hadith from various narrators could have all coincidentally been fabricated. Some might be, "all" would be doubtful. This is the first time I have heard a Sunni (if you are a Sunni) admitting that there are some false hadiths in Sunni books, and I congratulate you for that. Brother, may I ask if you hold the same opinion about Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim? Just curious, no offense meant. I also admit there are some bad hadiths in Shia books, but it becomes more difficult to call a hadith "false" if it is narrated multiple times (albeit, in slightly different forms) in both Sunni and Shia books, by many respected historians.

I used to be a sunni, but I became a shia a few months ago, alhamdulillah.

However, I still have a long way to go, and want to research everything I come across before accepting it. This topic being no exclusion.

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(12) Ibn Shahna, in Hashiyya-e-Kamil of Ibn Athir, Volume XI, page 112, writes in connection with the Saqifa that: "Some of the Prophet's companions, and the Bani Hashim, Zubair, Atba Bin Abi Lahab, Khalid Bin Sa'id Bin As, Miqdad Bin Aswad Kindi, Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr Ghifari, Ammar Bin Yasir, Bara'a Bin Azib, and Ubai Bin Ka'b refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr. They assembled in Ali's house. Umar Bin Khattab went there intending to burn down the house. Fatima protested to him. Umar said: 'Enter where all others have entered.'"

These are but a sample of the many historical facts recorded by your own historians. This affair was so commonly known that the poets of old mentioned it. One of your poets, Hafiz Ibrahim of Egypt, says in a poem in praise of Umar: "No other person but Abu Hafsa (father of Umar) could have the courage of addressing the chief of the Adnan Clan (Ali) and his comrades, saying: 'If you fail to pay allegiance, I will set your house on fire and will not leave any inmate of the house alive, even Fatima herself.'"

Salaam everyone,

I have read this and it is very painful what happened to Imam Ali and Fatima (S.A) My question is that Imam Ali was a war hero in about most battles.. maybe a war hero of all battles.. then why he did not he fight and kill Umar? I do believe in this historic event and have no doubt in it.. but i do ask this question .. Why did'nt Salman, Miqdad, Ammar Yasir, Talha, Zubair who were gathered at Imam Ali's house.. all took on their swords and did jihad?

Please reply,

Zanadine

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I agree. I don't see it up to us to show why Ali (as) did NOT fight Umar, etc. after this event, but for those who doubt this event on the basis that Ali (as) didn't fight, to show us ONE single event where Ali (as) fought, or took revenge, or killed, or anything of that type, based on his personal desire.

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(salam)

Personally, I beleive that he did threaten to burn down the house. And that's not even going against his personality or anything, lol...

No, but seriously.. I do think that he threatened to do it, after all, he was too hot-blooded.

(bismillah)

Ok thats the first step.

But the problem comes to whether he actually did it or not.

What was stopping him, afterall they usurped the caliphate and they usurped fadak and no one spoke out of the people, so they realized no matter what they did no one will object. <_<

And if he did, then what *exactly* happened? I am sceptical about the reports in this particular area because it's quite apparent that each report is more dramatically and emotinally composed to 'soften' the reader/hearer of the narration. When this happens, I seriously start doubting the narration's authenticity.

One narration would mention a whip, the next would mention 2 whips, dipped in hot oil with razors attached to the end. One narration will talk about a tiny splinter lightly scratching Fatima (as). The next will talk about a 2-inch rusty blunt nail that went *through* her body puncturing her lungs.

and so on....

Here is where I agree partially with you, the shia tend to exagerrate stories, especially in Muharram, I dont want to go further here or I may offend some people. However its unclear who crushed the Lady of the Women of the Universe (as), whether it was Umar himself or Kunfuz his slave. But all the major ulema concede the event did take place except for one (whom most of the other ulema place doubt in his ijtihad) but i dont want to expound on this, so i dont upset anyone.

I have no doubt that she she died from what took place at her home, but I find the story is spiced up by the mullahs reading majaalis. Maybe its because I dont beleive all the historians accounts of the event, and Im a firm believer that we cant just accept any hadith we read, unless we have knowledge in ilm al rijaal, but I respect anyone who believes opposite to this idea, they are still my shia brothers regardless.

Wassalaam

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^ showing respect is NOT threatening (even if he didn't follow through) to burn down the house of the daughter (as), son in law (as) and grandsons (as) of the Prophet pbuh&HP! And as was pointed out, who's to say he didn't have his slave do it, or stand by while someone else did it?

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^ showing respect is NOT threatening (even if he didn't follow through) to burn down the house of the daughter (as), son in law (as) and grandsons (as) of the Prophet pbuh&HP! And as was pointed out, who's to say he didn't have his slave do it, or stand by while someone else did it?

I have to agree with Sis Aliya here. It was quite daring of him, and didn't quite pull off as 'love for ahlul-bayt'.

What was stopping him, afterall they usurped the caliphate and they usurped fadak and no one spoke out of the people, so they realized no matter what they did no one will object. <_<

Akhil aziz, here's the deal. My gut feeling is that what happened was more than just a threat, but I *don't* know exactly what happened, and therefore I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, because the Quran does after all tell us to avoid most of suspicion.

Here is where I agree partially with you, the shia tend to exagerrate stories, especially in Muharram, I dont want to go further here or I may offend some people. However its unclear who crushed the Lady of the Women of the Universe , whether it was Umar himself or Kunfuz his slave. But all the major ulema concede the event did take place except for one (whom most of the other ulema place doubt in his ijtihad) but i dont want to expound on this, so i dont upset anyone.

I myself have no knowledge of rijjal either, and I am no 3alim. That is one of the reasons why I prefer to remain silent on this matter until I see the unanimous agreement of 3ulema on what *exactly* took place.

I have been to the muharram majalis only this muharram, and my head is already spinning with all the different stories I heard at different masjids, each more dramatic and spicy than the previous. My initial reflex was to believe that these stories are made up to arouse emotions in muharram. And I must admit, I still do believe for the most part that is the case.

I have no doubt that she she died from what took place at her home, but I find the story is spiced up by the mullahs reading majaalis. Maybe its because I dont beleive all the historians accounts of the event, and Im a firm believer that we cant just accept any hadith we read, unless we have knowledge in ilm al rijaal, but I respect anyone who believes opposite to this idea, they are still my shia brothers regardless.

A7sant. :)

I too prefer not to criticize others for what they believe. Who knows, they could be right and I could be wrong. However, when they take it beyond the limit (by swearing at 'the 2' or calling them kafir), then I consider it my duty to object because that is unislamic, and I consider it my duty as a Mu'min to speak up against it.

May Allah make the truth clear to us all.

Ilahi ameen.

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(bismillah)

Br. Tahasyed,

Do you personally believe that the attack on the house of Fatima (as) took place ? Or do you think it was fabricated ? If so why was it fabricated ? And why does a great sunni scholar like shibli Nu'mani (shams-al-ulema) in his book al Farooq Umar the Great state that Umar did threaten to set fire to the house of Al-Zahra (as)  ?

Wassalaam

That authority of such claims is weak...No solid proof.. (!) <_<

May Allah (swt) guide us all.

This is an historical fact of Umar ibn khattab doing all this injustice to AHlulbayt.. Its a fact.. I dont understand why do you want to deny it and try to cover his CRIMES!!! you have to admit that he was a criminal MAN!!

He was conspiring to usurpt the caliphate even before the prophet died.. with Abubakr.. He justified all this criminal actions against Ahlulbayt by thinking that he is going to be doing good for Islam.. he probably thought that he knew better then the prophet himself.. what is good for Islam.

ok, Judas was one of the first to convert at the hands of Jesus Christ .. then why did he change his opinion later.. he might have converted thinking that he will be rich.. or might have had doubts deep down in his hearts as Jesus as a Magician..(nausbillah). mixed feelings Judas might have had and became a traitor.. and sold him for 30 pieces of silver.

Same way perhaps.. abubakr and umar converted with mixed feelings.. and planned a conspiracy against the prophet for the love of his world.. riches.. perhaps power.. how does one lead to such criminal behavior? after all being in the company of the prophet for more then 10 years..

Zanadine.

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(bismillah)

Salam brothers ...

i remember reading about Ayt. Fadhallah and i few other ayts.. maybe it was just Ayt. Fadhallah .. actualy stated as saying .. that story of the death of Mohsin as a Weak story ( some shia' propagated so we can have great hatred against the sahaba.. ) this in fact had a hugeee impact in iran .. cause i think they denounced him as a ayt. because of that comment ..

salam

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(salam)

All the references below are narrations from Sunni sources which describe the story of last days of Bibi Fatima, and her martydom.

(bismillah)

(1) Abu Ja'far Baladhuri Ahmad Bin Yahya Bin Jabir Baghdadi, one of your reliable traditionists and historians, writes in his History that when Abu Bakr called Ali to swear allegiance, Ali refused. Abu Bakr sent Umar who went with a torch to set fire to Ali's house. Fatima came to the door and said: "O son of Khattab! Have you come to set my house on fire?" He said: "Yes, this is more effective than anything your father did."

(2) Izzu'd-Din Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, and Muhammad Bin Jarir Tabari, narrate that Umar went to the door of Ali's house with Usayd Bin Khuza'i, Salama Bin Aslam and a group of men. Umar then called out, "Come out! Or else I'll set your house on fire!"

(3) Ibn Khaziba reports in his Kitab-e-Gharrar from Zaid Bin Aslam, who said: "I was one of those who went with Umar with torches to Fatima's door. When Ali and his men refused to offer allegiance, Umar said to Fatima, "Let whoever is inside come out. Otherwise, I will set the house on fire along with whoever is inside." Ali, Hasan, Husain, Fatima, and a party of the Prophet's companions, and the Bani Hashim were inside. Fatima said: "Would you set my house on fire along with me and my sons?" He said: "Yes, by Allah, if they do not come out and pay allegiance to the caliph of the Prophet."

(4) Ibn Abd Rabbih, one of your famous ulema, writes in his Iqdu'l-Farid, Part III, page 63, that Ali and Abbas were sitting in Fatima's house. Abu Bakr told Umar: "Go and bring these people. If they refuse to come, fight them." So Umar came to Fatima's house with torches. Fatima came to the door of the house and said: "Have you come to burn our house?" He said: "Yes..." and so on.

(5) Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali in his Shahre Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume I, page 134, quoting from Jauhari's Kitab-e-Saqifa, writes in detail about the affair of the Saqifa-e-Bani Sa'ad. "The Bani Hashim and Ali were assembled in Ali's house. Zubair was also with them since he considered himself one of the Bani Hashim. Ali used to say, 'Zubair was always with us until his sons were grown up. They turned him against us.' Umar went to Fatima's house with a group of men. Usayd and Salma were also with him. Umar asked them to come out and swear allegiance. They refused. Zubair drew his sword and came out. Umar said: 'Get hold of this dog.' Salma Bin Aslam snatched the sword and threw it against the wall. Then they dragged Ali to Abu Bakr. Other Bani Hashim also followed him and were waiting to see what Ali would do. Ali was saying that he was the servant of Allah and the brother of the Holy Prophet. Nobody listened to him. They took him to Abu Bakr, who asked him to take the oath of allegiance to him. Ali said: "I am the most deserving person for this position, and I will not pay allegiance to you. It is incumbent on you to pay allegiance to me. You took this right from the Ansar based on your relationship with the Prophet. I also, on the same ground, protest against you. So be just. If you fear Allah, accept my right, as the Ansar did yours. Otherwise, you should acknowledge that you are intentionally oppressing me.' Umar said: 'We will not leave you until you swear allegiance.' Ali said: 'You have conspired well together. Today you support him, so that tomorrow he may return the caliphate to you. I swear by Allah that I will not comply with your request and will not take the oath of allegiance (to Abu Bakr). He should pay allegiance to me.' Then he turned his face toward the people and said: 'O Muhajirs! Fear Allah. Do not take away the right of authority of Muhammad's family. That right has been ordained by Allah. Do not remove the rightful person from his place. By Allah, we Ahle Bait have greater authority in this matter than you have. There is a man among you who has the knowledge of the Book of Allah (The Qur'an), the Sunna of the Prophet , and the laws of our Religion. I swear by Allah that we possess all these things. So do not follow yourselves lest you should stray from the truth.'" Ali returned home without offering allegiance and secluded himself in his house until Fatima died. Thereafter, he was forced to offer allegiance.

(6) Abu Muhammad Abdullah Bin Muslim Bin Qutayba Bin Umar Al-Bahili Dinawari, who was one of your ulema and an official Qazi of the city of Dinawar, writes in his famous Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafate Raghibin wa Daulate Bani Umayya, known as Al-Imama wa's-Siyasa, Volume I, page 13: "When Abu Bakr learned that a group hostile to him had assembled in Ali's house, he sent Umar to them. When Umar shouted to Ali to come out and to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, they all refused to come out. Umar collected wood and said 'I swear by Allah, Who has my life in His control, either you will come out, or I will set the house with all those in it on fire.' People said: 'O Abu Hafsa! Fatima is also present in the house.' He said: 'Let her be there. I will set fire to the house.' So all of them came out and offered allegiance, except Ali, who said: 'I have taken a vow that until I have compiled the Qur'an, I will neither go out of the house nor will I put on full dress.' Umar did not accept this, but the plaintive lamentation of Fatima and the snubbing by others, forced him to go back to Abu Bakr. Umar urged him to force Ali to swear allegiance. Abu Bakr sent Qanfaz several times to summon Ali, but he was always disappointed. At last Umar, with a group of people went to the door of Fatima's house. When Fatima heard their voices, she cried out 'O my father, Prophet of Allah! What tortures we are subjected to by the son of Khattab and the son of Abi Quhafa!' When the people heard Fatima's lamentation, some went back with their hearts broken, but Umar remained there with some others until finally they dragged Ali from the house. They took Ali to Abu Bakr, and told him to swear allegiance to him. Ali said: 'If I do not swear allegiance what will you do to me?' They said: 'We swear by Allah that we will break your neck.' Ali said: 'Will you kill the servant of Allah and the brother of His Prophet?' Umar said: 'You are not the brother of the Prophet of Allah.' While all this was going on, Abu Bakr kept silent. Umar then asked Abu Bakr whether he (Umar) was not following Abu Bakr's orders in this matter. Abu Bakr said that so long as Fatima was alive he would not force Ali to swear allegiance to him. Ali then managed to reach the grave of the Prophet, where, wailing and crying, he told the Prophet what Aaron had told his brother, Moses, as recorded in the Holy Qur'an: 'Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well nigh slain me.' (7:150)

After narrating this affair in detail, Abu Muhammad Abdullah Bin Qutayba says that Ali did not swear allegiance and returned home. Later Abu Bakr and Umar went to Fatima's house to placate her and to seek her pardon. She said: "Allah be my witness that you two have offended me. In every prayer I curse you and will continue cursing you until I see my father and complain against you."

(7) Ahmad Bin Abdu'l-Aziz is one of your ulema. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid writes about him in the following words: "He was a man of learning, a traditionist, a great literary figure." He writes in his Kitab-e-Saqifa and Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali also quotes from him in his Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume I, page 9, on the authority of Abi'l-Aswad, who said: "A group of the companions and prominent Muhajirin expressed their indignation at Abu Bakr's caliphate and asked why they were not consulted. Also Ali and Zubair expressed their anger, refused to swear allegiance, and retired to Fatima's house. Fatima cried aloud and made solemn entreaties, but to no effect. They took away Ali's and Zubair's swords and hurled them against the wall, breaking them. Then they dragged them to the mosque to force them to swear allegiance."

(8) Jauhari reports from Salma Bin Abdu'r-Rahman that when Abu Bakr heard that Ali, Zubair, and a party of the Bani Hashim were assembled in Fatima's house, he sent Umar for them. Umar went to the door of Fatima's house and shouted, "Come out, otherwise, I swear I will set your house on fire!"

(9) Jauhari, according to Ibn Abi'l-Hadid in his Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume II, page 19, narrates on the authority of Sha'bi: "When Abu Bakr heard about the gathering of the Bani Hashim in Ali's house, he said to Umar: 'Both you and Khalid go and bring Ali and Zubair to me so that they can take the oath of allegiance.' So Umar entered Fatima's house and Khalid stayed outside. Umar said to Zubair 'What is this sword?' He replied, 'I have acquired it for allegiance to Ali.'

Umar snatched the sword and hurled it at the stone inside the house and broke it. Then he brought him out to Khalid. He came back into the house, where there were many people, including Miqdad, and all the Bani Hashim. Addressing Ali, he said: 'Get up! I'm taking you to Abu Bakr. You must pay allegiance to him.' Ali refused. Umar dragged him to Khalid. Khalid and Umar forced him along the road which was packed to capacity with men who witnessed this scene. When Fatima saw Umar's behavior, she, along with many women of the Bani Hashim (who had come to console her), came out. They were lamenting and wailing with high-pitched cries. Fatima went to the mosque where she said to Abu Bakr: 'How soon have you sacked the Ahle Bait of the Prophet of Allah. I swear by Allah, I will not talk with Umar until I see Allah.' Fatima showed her extreme disapproval of Abu Bakr and did not speak to him for the rest of her life." (See Sahih Bukhari, Part V and VII).

(10) Abu Walid Muhibu'd-Din Muhammad Bin Muhammad Bin Ash-Shahna Al-Hanafi (died 815 A.H.), one of your leading ulema writes in his Rauzatu'l-Manazir Fi Khabaru'l-Awa'il wa'l-Awakhir, in connection with the Saqifa affair: "Umar came to Ali's house prepared to set it on fire with all its inmates. Umar said: 'Enter into what the community has entered.'"

(11) Tabari, in his Ta'rikh Volume II, page 443, reports from Ziyad Bin Kalbi that "Talha, Zubair, and some of the Muhajirin were at Ali's house. Umar Bin Khattab went there and demanded that they come out. If they did not, he said, he would set the house on fire."

(12) Ibn Shahna, in Hashiyya-e-Kamil of Ibn Athir, Volume XI, page 112, writes in connection with the Saqifa that: "Some of the Prophet's companions, and the Bani Hashim, Zubair, Atba Bin Abi Lahab, Khalid Bin Sa'id Bin As, Miqdad Bin Aswad Kindi, Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr Ghifari, Ammar Bin Yasir, Bara'a Bin Azib, and Ubai Bin Ka'b refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr. They assembled in Ali's house. Umar Bin Khattab went there intending to burn down the house. Fatima protested to him. Umar said: 'Enter where all others have entered.'"

These are but a sample of the many historical facts recorded by your own historians. This affair was so commonly known that the poets of old mentioned it. One of your poets, Hafiz Ibrahim of Egypt, says in a poem in praise of Umar: "No other person but Abu Hafsa (father of Umar) could have the courage of addressing the chief of the Adnan Clan (Ali) and his comrades, saying: 'If you fail to pay allegiance, I will set your house on fire and will not leave any inmate of the house alive, even Fatima herself.'"

You should read Kitab-e-Isbatu'l-Wasiyya, compiled by Abi'l-Hasan Ali Bin Husain Mas'udi, author of Muruju'dh-Dhahab. He wrote in great detail about the events of that day: "They surrounded Ali and burned the door of his house. They dragged him out of the house and pressed the best of the women, Fatima, between the door and the wall so forcefully that Muhsin, her unborn son, died of miscarriage." The Shias have not concocted these things. What occurred has been preserved in the pages of history. The miscarriage is a fact.

You may also refer to Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume III, page 351. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid wrote that he told his teacher, Abu Ja'far Naqib, that when the Prophet was told that Hubbar Bin Aswad had attacked his daughter Zainab's litter with a lance, because of which Zainab suffered a miscarriage, the Prophet allowed him to be put to death. Abu Ja'far said: 'Had the Prophet of Allah been alive, he would have surely ordered the death penalty for him also who had frightened Fatima so much that her child, Muhsin, died in miscarriage.'

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Asalam-o-Alykum

Ya Ali(as) Madad

I Like All Ur Quotations Sir I Know this is The Truth but whenever i talk to Sunni People They Want Quotation From Sihha-e-Satta So Kindly Give Me Quotation From Sihha-e-Satta...

And I Also Want to Say That Dont Give Lanat TO All Asahab BC There R Many Asahab Who Love Or Care Ahl-e-Bait Like Hazrat-e-Salmaan

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Salaam everyone,

I have read this and it is very painful what happened to Imam Ali and Fatima (S.A) My question is that Imam Ali was a war hero in about most battles.. maybe a war hero of all battles.. then why he did not he fight and kill Umar? I do believe in this historic event and have no doubt in it.. but i do ask this question .. Why did'nt Salman, Miqdad, Ammar Yasir, Talha, Zubair who were gathered at Imam Ali's house.. all took on their swords and did jihad?

Please reply,

Zanadine

Salamu alaikum regarding why Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) did not go out and fight (or order his followers to fight) the usurpers and criminals like Umar ibn al-Khattab, etc. I recommend this great article and here is the explanation; from: http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/taqiyyah/en/chap7.php

Quote- Why Maula Ali (as) didn't raise his Dhulfiqar against Sheikhain?

This has been a very common Nasibi argument, and is tactically used by the followers of Mu'awiya to mock the Shi'a. We should point out to these people Nasibi that Imam 'Ali (as)'s decision not to take physical action was not due to his practicing Taqiyya (through fear of life) and neither was it because he loved the three khalifas. His decision was based on the following reasons as we have set out:

Reply One - It was Abu Bakr's duty to return what was not his, not Imam Ali to demand it

Simple example. A man has a son and bequeaths his property to him he does openly in the presence of witnesses, (that include his uncle). If when the father dies his uncle seizes the property and claims it as his, places guard to guard the property. In such circumstances the uncle is the usurper the son is the aggrieved party. In such circumstances it is incumbent on the Uncle to RETURN the property to his nephew, not on the nephew to use force to take it back. When the uncle is in the wrong the onus is on him to put things right not the son to fight for his right.

Reply Two - Imam 'Ali did not want to cause open division and bloodshed

These Nawasib need to look at the situation at THAT particular time when Abu Bakr seized power. Allah (swt) declared clearly that Madina and its surrounding locality was FULL of munafiq (Surah Munafiqoon). Rasul (s) has stated that the sign of a munafiq is hatred of Imam 'Ali. Hence Madina was full of Imam 'Ali 's opponents who were looking for the excuse to harm him. Abu Bakr had full control of the State machinery. He was in power / had the army at his disposal etc. Had he risen at that time he along with the Shi'a would have been wiped out, on the excuse that it was right to do so to quell sedition.

Don't forget we read in Tabari that Umar was prepared to set alight the house of Sayyida Fatima because men in her home had gathered in opposition to Abu Bakr. If Umar was so ruthless to not even care for the life of Sayyida Fatima[as] then he would have had no hesitation in killing her husband and her supporters.

At that time, Imam 'Ali had to think what was best for his followers; any opposition would have caused loss of life. Any action at that time would have caused major dissension and bloodshed, and Rasul (s) said:

"Your position to me is like the position of Aaron to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"

1. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56 and 5.700

2. Sahih Muslim, Arabic, section of virtues of Ali, v4, pp 1870-71

3. Sunan Ibn Majah, p12

4. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174

5. al-Khas'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16

6. Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

The analogy that Prophet (pbuh) mentioned in the above tradition, became a reality after his demise. Most of companions (except few) became disloyal to Ali (as) after the death of Prophet (pbuh), turned against him, and preferred some other people to him. The majority of people disobeyed Ali (as), as their forefathers disobeyed Haroon (as). They did not take lessons from the Quran and the history, and thus history repeated itself. The repetition of the history of the Children of Israel for Muslims was confirmed by Prophet (s).

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.422

Think for a while... Why would the Prophet (a) compare his companions to the Jews and the Christians, knowing full well that the Jews and the Christians have mutilated and perverted the religion of Allah (swt)?

Because Allah (swt) had told him (s) that your companions will turn back, except the select few.

Now if we analyse the Quran; we read that Prophet Musa (as) became extremely upset when he heard that Bani Israel started worshipping the idol of a calf. He came back from Miqaat and grabbed Haroon (as) by his beard. Harun (as) replied in a distressed state:

(20:94) "O son of my mother, do not seize me by my beard or my head. Truly, I feared but you should say that I caused a division among the Bani-Isra'il and did not respect my word"

In the same way that Harun did not intervene at that particular time fearing further fragmentation amongst the Ummah, Imam Ali (as) also did not act as he did not want the Ummah to be at each others throats since the only beneficiaries would be the munafiqs who would exploit the situation and destroy Islam through internal deception.

Reply Three- The wider situation meant it would have been disastrous to act

On a wider scale look at the situation at the time. We had munafiqs in Madina, and worse the threat of attack from the neighbouring Christian Byzantine Empire. This was a very real danger since in 10 Hijri, Rasul (s) led the expedition of Tabuk to counter the Byzantine threat. On top of that in the Arabian Peninsula, Musalimah had risen up and declared himself a Prophet (s) and was making preparations to attack Madina. Had Imam Ali at this stage rose up, the Ummah would have been totally fragmented, Muslims would have been fighting each other and Musalimah the liar. What better time would there have been for the Byzantines to attack than when the Muslims were divided, fighting each other AND fighting Musalimah? At that time the Ummah would have been so weak on account of internal upheaval there would have been a real risk of the Byzantines invading and destroying the Muslim Ummah. In such circumstances Imam Ali had the interests of the Deen as priority, he did not want to trigger any event that might inflict harm to the Deen and its adherents. If anything this shows the greatness of the Imam that he was willing to sacrifice his right, if it meant a guarantee that the Deen and its adherents were protected from harm.

Reply Four - Imam Ali was following the Sunnah of Rasul (s), desisting from actions that might be exploited by non Muslims

We read in Sahih al Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 428: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

We were in a Ghazwa (Sufyan once said, in an army) and a man from the emigrants kicked an Ansari man (on the buttocks with his foot). The Ansari man said, "O the Ansar! (Help!)" and the emigrant said. "O the emigrants! (Help!) Allah's Apostle heard that and said, "What is this call for, which is characteristic of the period of ignorance?" They said, "O Allah's Apostle! A man from the emigrants kicked one of the Ansar (on the buttocks with his foot)." Allah's Apostle said, "Leave it (that call) as is a detestable thing." 'Abdullah bin Ubai heard that and said, 'Have the (the emigrants) done so? By Allah, if we return Medina, surely, the more honorable will expel therefrom the meaner." When this statement reached the Prophet. 'Umar got up an, said, "O Allah's Apostle! Let me chop off the head of this hypocrite ('Abdullah bin Ubai)!" The Prophet said "Leave him, lest the people say that Muhammad kills his companions." The Ansar were then more in number than the emigrants when the latter came to Medina, but later on the emigrant increased.

The reference makes it clear that a hypocrite was sitting in the midst of the Sahaba, Umar offered to have him killed, but Rasul (s) said "Leave him, lest the people say that Muhammad kills his companions; i.e. he (s) did not want his actions to be exploited / incorrectly interpreted by non Muslims. In the same way that Rasul (s) had spared the life of a hypocrite fearing that outside elements would exploit the situation, Imam Ali acted on the Sunnah of Rasul (s) refraining from lifting his sword as he was aware that outside elements would have picked up on this and painted a damaging image of Islam.

The true Imam thinks about consequences of actions both present and future. Imam Ali did not want to act in a manner that would be exploited by future non Muslim generations in a manner that would be detrimental to the Deen. Had Imam Ali raised his sword at that time then no doubt anti Muslim elements of that time and present would have exploited the situation to the max they would have said 'Look, this is Islam, its all about power here we have the closest companions fighting not for religion but the throne of Muhammad (s)'

This portrayal would have created a very bad image of Islam, non-Muslims would have picked up on this and exploited it, and it would have repelled people away from Islam. If Rasul (s) refrained from lifting the sword against a munafiq fearing the perception of outsiders, then Imam Ali was fully within his rights when he refrained from raising his sword against Abu Bakr, to do so was the Sunnah of Rasul (s).

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salam

mr Ambs41

after my research into the incident of the door i say with good level of certainty that fatima zahra was not killed by omar or qonfodh and was never beaten up , there's no sahih hadith confirming this and the book that is relied upon for these events "book of saleem ibn qais" is fabricated

fatima zahra died because she couldnt bear life after the departure of the holy prophet(saww) and Allah granted her her wish to join him, also the injustice she suffered from these so-called sahabah contributed to her great depression and maybe death

what's sure is that omar threatened to burn the house and started doing it , he also snubbed zahra(as) when he was told: do u do this and fatima(as) is in the house ? so he answered: SO WHAT??

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instead of useless and qiyasi arguments can shias setforth any sahi shia narration that any of the sheikein killed hz fatima(ra) , nauzbillahi min zalik.

There's is no sahih hadith confirming this , i already showed you what happened :

salam

mr Ambs41

after my research into the incident of the door i say with good level of certainty that fatima zahra was not killed by omar or qonfodh and was never beaten up , there's no sahih hadith confirming this and the book that is relied upon for these events "book of saleem ibn qais" is fabricated

fatima zahra died because she couldnt bear life after the departure of the holy prophet(saww) and Allah granted her her wish to join him, also the injustice she suffered from these so-called sahabah contributed to her great depression and maybe death

what's sure is that omar threatened to burn the house and started doing it , he also snubbed zahra(as) when he was told: do u do this and fatima(as) is in the house ? so he answered: SO WHAT??

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salam

mr Ambs41

after my research into the incident of the door i say with good level of certainty that fatima zahra was not killed by omar or qonfodh and was never beaten up , there's no sahih hadith confirming this and the book that is relied upon for these events "book of saleem ibn qais" is fabricated

fatima zahra died because she couldnt bear life after the departure of the holy prophet(saww) and Allah granted her her wish to join him, also the injustice she suffered from these so-called sahabah contributed to her great depression and maybe death

what's sure is that omar threatened to burn the house and started doing it , he also snubbed zahra(as) when he was told: do u do this and fatima(as) is in the house ? so he answered: SO WHAT??

"The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" is not allegedly "fabricated" this is a Wahhabi/Sunni pushed myth. All major Shi'a Muslim Ulama have confirmed that Sulaym ibn Qays is a historic person and "The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" is authentic. Are you saying that you allegedly know better then the great, learned Shi'a Muslim Alims of past and present?!

Edited by Abdul-Rahman Brent
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"The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" is not allegedly "fabricated" this is a Wahhabi/Sunni pushed myth. All major Shi'a Muslim Ulama have confirmed that Sulaym ibn Qays is a historic person and "The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" is authentic. Are you saying that you allegedly know better then the great, learned Shi'a Muslim Alims of past and present?!

]

this book even contains narration that tehreef has been done in quran. so what is ur opinion now? And some more things which majority of shia ulama today deny. But yes i do agree that shia ulama of past have considered this book to be authentic. So actually you have to say now that how you conciliate between this?

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"The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" is not allegedly "fabricated" this is a Wahhabi/Sunni pushed myth. All major Shi'a Muslim Ulama have confirmed that Sulaym ibn Qays is a historic person and "The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" is authentic. Are you saying that you allegedly know better then the great, learned Shi'a Muslim Alims of past and present?!

it doesnt take a genius to know that it's fabricated , the narrator of the book abaan ibn ayyash is a liar and he was accused by shia scholars of fabricating the book of salim ibn qais al-hilali

here's some information for you

sistani said : there's problem in its sanad (the book of salim ibn qais)

السؤال:

كتاب سليم بن قيس الهلالي العامري الكوفي صاحب أمير المؤمين علي عليه السلام المتوفى سنة 90 هجرية ، الذي قال الأمام الصادق عليه السلام عن كتابه : أنه سر من أسرار آل محمد . فما مدى صحة هذا الكتاب وماذا يقول العلماء عنه خاصة مع اختلاف طبعاته في الوقت الحاضر ؟

الفتوى:

في سنده إشكال .

also this is the view of sayed wali al-amr khamenei hafidhahullah

now let's look at the main narrator of this book : abaan ibn ayash :

تابعي ضعيف ، من أصحاب علي بن الحسين (5) والباقر (6) والصادق (7) عليهم السلام ، رجال الشيخ.

تابعي ، روى عن أنس بن مالك ، وروى عن علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام ، ضعيف لا يلتفت إليه ، ونسب (8) وضع كتاب سليم بن قيس إليه (9) ، رجال ابن الغضائري (10).

so tifrishi said compiling the views of shia scholars about him:

he's weak not to be given any importance and the fabrication of the book of salim ibn qais was attributed to him

u want more??

here's the view of ibn dawood alhilli:

ضعيف ، قيل إنه وضع كتاب سليم بن قيس.

weak, it was reported that he fabricated the book of salim ibn qais

so what you said hereis rubbish :

All major Shi'a Muslim Ulama have confirmed that Sulaym ibn Qays is a historic person and "The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" is authentic

i am not disputing the existence of salim ibn qais(ra) but i'm saying aban ibn ayyash fabricated the book of salim ibn qais , and i have proven that what you said about scholars agreeing all of them on the authenticity of this book is utter rubbish

Edited by musawi
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it doesnt take a genius to know that it's fabricated , the narrator of the book abaan ibn ayyash is a liar and he was accused by shia scholars of fabricating the book of salim ibn qais al-hilali

here's some information for you

sistani said : there's problem in its sanad (the book of salim ibn qais)

ÇáÓÄÇá:

ßÊÇÈ Óáíã Èä ÞíÓ ÇáåáÇáí ÇáÚÇãÑí ÇáßæÝí ÕÇÍÈ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãíä Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÇáãÊæÝì ÓäÉ 90 åÌÑíÉ ¡ ÇáÐí ÞÇá ÇáÃãÇã ÇáÕÇÏÞ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Úä ßÊÇÈå : Ãäå ÓÑ ãä ÃÓÑÇÑ Âá ãÍãÏ . ÝãÇ ãÏì ÕÍÉ åÐÇ ÇáßÊÇÈ æãÇÐÇ íÞæá ÇáÚáãÇÁ Úäå ÎÇÕÉ ãÚ ÇÎÊáÇÝ ØÈÚÇÊå Ýí ÇáæÞÊ ÇáÍÇÖÑ ¿

ÇáÝÊæì:

Ýí ÓäÏå ÅÔßÇá .

also this is the view of sayed wali al-amr khamenei hafidhahullah

now let's look at the main narrator of this book : abaan ibn ayash :

ÊÇÈÚí ÖÚíÝ ¡ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈ Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä (5) æÇáÈÇÞÑ (6) æÇáÕÇÏÞ (7) Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ¡ ÑÌÇá ÇáÔíÎ.

ÊÇÈÚí ¡ Ñæì Úä ÃäÓ Èä ãÇáß ¡ æÑæì Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ¡ ÖÚíÝ áÇ íáÊÝÊ Åáíå ¡ æäÓÈ (8) æÖÚ ßÊÇÈ Óáíã Èä ÞíÓ Åáíå (9) ¡ ÑÌÇá ÇÈä ÇáÛÖÇÆÑí (10).

so tifrishi said compiling the views of shia scholars about him:

he's weak not to be given any importance and the fabrication of the book of salim ibn qais was attributed to him

u want more??

here's the view of ibn dawood alhilli:

ÖÚíÝ ¡ Þíá Åäå æÖÚ ßÊÇÈ Óáíã Èä ÞíÓ.

weak, it was reported that he fabricated the book of salim ibn qais

so what you said hereis rubbish :

i am not disputing the existence of salim ibn qais(ra) but i'm saying aban ibn ayyash fabricated the book of salim ibn qais , and i have proven that what you said about scholars agreeing all of them on the authenticity of this book is utter rubbish

Salamu alaikum I meant to say just that all Shi'a Muslim scholars agree on the existence of Sulaym ibn Qays (ra), you are correct in showing that there is a difference of opinion on the authenticity of "The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays"

For example see this old thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234947957-hadeeths-about-crimes-of-enemies-of-ahlul-bayt/page__st__25__p__1699531entry1699531

Quote- Salam U Alaykum,

I did not open it in the Shia-Sunni Dialouge, another moderator moved it there.

Macissac I am aware that there are some scholars that state that it may have been a forgery. However as I stated earlier there are some older scholars who said it was correct. Such as al-numaani and al majlisi. The reason some scholars say it may be a forgery is because they can not find mention of it for many years from the hadeeths. Howeever there are many scholars such as (majlisi) who find this following narration to be correct:

Imam sadiq said: Who ever doesnt have the book of Sulaim from among our shias and lovers, it is like he has nothing from us and has not learned from us any thing, and it is a secret of the house of muhammad .

Majlisi states that this hadeeth is correct, and it is his basis for saying the book is sahih. Other than that there are some issues, with wether or not it is the original book, if things have been added to it or subtracted from it etc, it is for these reasons that Sayed khoie him self says teh contents are correct, but its difficult to atribute it to Sulaim him self.

As far as I have seen there is nothing in the book that goes against any Shia principles or against any shia historical accounts.

Is there a translated version available online? Only to purchse, from the al-khoie book store.

end quote.

Majlisi is a little late, but al-Numaani is an early scholar who argued for the reliability and authenticity of "The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" and also from the same old thread proof is shown that the late Sayyid al-Khoei (ra) believed in the authenticity of "The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays" also:

Quote- Al-Khoie site says this:

Kitab-e- Sulaym Ibn Qays Al-Hilali

The greatness and esteemed value of this book can be gauged by the hadith of Imam Ja’far Al-Sadiq a.s that whoever does not possess this book does not have anything from The Ahlul Bayt AS. This is a book that has received endorsement from five Infallible Imams.

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