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Anti-shia :( - Someone please explain this stuff to me!

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[Mod Note: This is an old topic. Do not report any post in this thread from 2002. Mods usually do not remove old replies and certainly we do not warn members who are no longer active at ShiaChat.]

Noble Qur'aan

The Ja'fari Shee'ah scholar says: ‘That the number of verses in the Holy Qur'aan is 1700’. Al-Kafi by Al-Kolayni, which is believed by Shee'ah scholars as the most trustworthy and celebrated work of hadeeth known in the Shee'ah world, says: ‘Any human being who claims to have collected the Qur'aan in its complete form is a liar. Only Ali and the Imams collected it all and preserved it’.

The Shee'ah Scholars also allow their followers to read the existing Holy Qur'aan till they are taught their version. This permission is based on a Shee'ah tradition which says: I said to Imam Ali Musa (the 8th Imam), we hear from you Qur'aanic verses which we have not learned. Are we committing sins by not reciting them? The Imam said ‘No, read the way you have learned. Someone will come to teach you’ (referring to the 12th Imam who will reappear and bring with him the complete version according to the Shee'ah belief).

The Muslim scholars assure us that Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) compiled the Holy Qur'aan in its complete, current existing form orally and during the C’laph’ah (leadership) of Abu Bakr, a compilation which was written down in a single volume.

During the Khilaafat of Uthmaan (radiallahu 'anhu), the language of the Holy Qur'aan was standardized and universalized. The approved variations in reciting a few words of the Holy Qur'aan do not alter its basic meaning.

Allah says in the Holy Qur'aan:

“Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (Qur'aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)” [Al-Hijr 15:9]

“It is for Us to collect and to give you (O Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam)the ability to recite it” [Al-Qiyaamah 75:17]

“Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it (it is) sent down by the All-Wise Worthy of all praise (Allah)” [Fussilat 41:42]

Allah had promised to preserve it as a guidance for Muslims everywhere and forever. This is in contrast to the previous divine books wherein although their original forms are preserved with Allah, the ones in the hands of the followers of these messages are distorted.

The scholars who consider the belief that the Holy Qur'aan is adulterated is a plain rejection of the Islamic faith.

Brothers and sisters, you can find out for yourself that the number of verses in the Holy Qur'aan is 6236 excluding the “Bismillah” at the beginning of the Suras (Chapter), but the Shee'ah Scholars claim that this Holy Qur'aan is not complete. Should we believe the Ja'fari Shee'ah source or the Almighty Allah and the Muslim scholars? Perhaps some Shee'ah deny their belief that the existing Noble Qur'aan is not complete. But this denial could be shielding (Tuq’yah or to lie to protect the Shee'ah belief).

SUNNAH OR HADEETH

The Ja'fari Shee'ah scholars consider Sunnah as what the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and the Imams said. Al-Kafi by Kolayni, in Tabatabai’s words is “The most trustworthy and celebrated work of hadeeth in the Shee'ah world”. In this source, the names of the transmitters of the hadeeth are not frequently mentioned. Instead of the “Prophet said”, you find “The Imam said”. Many of these hadeeths contradict the Holy Qur'aan. The prominent criterion in validating hadeeth is actually whether it supports, or at least, does not negate the Shee'ah school of thought. The most trustworthy of the Prophet’s (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) traditions are the ones received through the household of the Prophet, i.e. the Shee'ah Imams, even though an Imam could pass away while his child is only nine, eight or five years old. For example, a hadeeth reported by Ali (radiallahu 'anhu) and compiled by Sahih Al-Bukhari is rejected if it contradicts the Shee'ah concept of temporary marriage (Nikah Mut’ah), but if the hadeeth were supportive of the Shee'ah school of thought, it would be accepted no matter who said, transmitted, or compiled it.

The Muslim scholars define Sunnah or hadeeth as the sayings of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), his deeds, tacit approvals or the description of his physical appearance. Basically, there are two ways of hadeeth authentication. The first is the “Isnad”, which means the reliability of the transmitters. Therefore, hadeeth with broken linkages between transmitters are rejected because there is no way to find out how reliable the transmitters are. Second, there is “Matn”, which means content of the hadeeth; that is, whether or not it contradicts the teachings of the Noble Qur'aan, there is another version of the same hadeeth with a different chain of   transmitters, or whether there is a stronger Isnad, etc. Based on these methodologies and the strictness of the compiler in choosing his hadeeth, the Muslim scholars affirmed that the compilations of Al-Bukhari and the Muslims are the most trustworthy source of the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) While the Noble Qur'aan was compiled in written form right after the death of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), the serious compilation of the hadeeth took place after almost 100 years (i.e.  the major compilations of hadeeth known today. The author is not implying that the writing or collection of hadeeth didd not begin until 100 years after the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) for indeed the companions wrote down the hadeeth in his lifetime and thereafter - Ed.)

There were many reasons for this delay, the major one being that a great proportion of hadeeth dealt with detailed teachings which should be practiced by a true Muslim in his daily life. The companions were actually living compilations of hadeeth because they were representing the Prophetic manners themselves. Therefore, there seemed to be no urgent need for serious efforts towards a written compilation. Furthermore, some great Companions were of the opinion that the teaching of Islam should be focused first in the Noble Qur'aan so that it would be well-established. This was to avoid what had happened to previous Divine Scripture in which divine words were mixed up with Prophetic sayings.

So brothers and sisters, which definition of hadeeth is more accurate, given the fact that Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is the seal of the Prophets? As Allah says in the Noble Qur'aan:

“Muhammad (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets...” [Al-Ahzaab 33:40]

Only the Prophets and the Messengers of Allah ('alaihim salaam) can receive revelation which is binding unto whom the Messenger is sent. When the Shee'ah scholars equate the sayings of the Imams to the sayings of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) , they are claiming that the Imam also received revelation. If these scholars claim that the Imams were only inspired, then the inspiration is a different story. It is not binding to be followed or to be enforced on others nor should it be shared by other human beings.

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followeroftherasul,

Salam o Aleykum,

The question is: IS QURAN COMPLETE?

Some say that Shia believe in Tehreef-e-Quran. Which means that some part of Quran is missing. Eg verses in favor of Imam Ali (as) etc. They Quote Hadith from our books as evidence of Tahreef.

I say:TAHREEF IS NOT POSSIBLE, any one who believes in Tahreef is a Lier.

-[b:post_uid0]These hadith are not authentic. [/b:post_uid0]

Most of the hadith they quote indicating Tahreef are dhaif. This means that they are not reliable and should be discarded.

What you have to understand that Shia books of hadith are just collection of all kind of hadith, some are Sahih while others are not. We have a book "al-Kafi" but we don't have "Sahih al-Kafi". Yes these books are very good books of hadith but they are not 100% correct.

-[b:post_uid0]Fact or Fiction[/b:post_uid0]

Over years people have said a lot of things about Quran. Missing verses, Missing Sura, Some even say 1/4 of Quran is hidden etc. A lot of this has been recorded in hadith and history books. This DOES NOT mean that all that is true.

E.g: As we all know Quran was burnt in India a few years ago. Since this is NEWS it will be recorded in history books. Say after 500 years someone will say: Oh ! quran was burnt in Year 2001 in a country named India. This means Quran is no more real, it was burnt!

We know that this is not true. Yes it was burnt but only a few copies. Since Quran has millions of copies it was preserved and is with us.

-[b:post_uid0]Quran is a mathematicaly balanced.[/b:post_uid0]

In 1978 I read a computer analysis of Quran in a Shia Journal. It said that there are 19 words in Bismillah. If we calculate the letters of quran, each one of that is divisible by 19. There is a mathematical balance in Quran. This is a proof that not even a single letter is more or less. You can find details on the Internet.

-[b:post_uid0]Where is the Shia Quran? [/b:post_uid0]

We blame the Christians and Jews that their book Bible has been altered. If there is an different Shia Quran they will be the first to find it, bring it up and show it to the world. It will be on the front page of Times and Newsweek.

Remember the British have ruled over Muslim countries, If there was an altered Quran, it would have been kept in the British Museum in London and people would pay a few pounds to see it!

-[b:post_uid0]My last evidence is Quran it self.[/b:post_uid0]

Let me ask you Do you agree that America is an enemy of Islam? If America with all its worldly resources decides to alter Quran, do you think America can do it? The answer is NO. Even if humans try they cannot change Quran. Allah has protected it:

"No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise." Al-Quran 41:42

-[b:post_uid0]We can find hadith is Sunni books also that indicate Tahreef.[/b:post_uid0]

Let us now look at Ahly Sunnat books. Hadis from Sahih Muslim:

-----------

Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" [b:post_uid0]If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust[/b:post_uid0]." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).

Sahih Muslim Book 5, Number 2286

The Book of Zakat (Kitab Al-Zakat)

-----------------

As you can see according to Sahih Muslim Abu Musa al-Ash'ari recited 3 verses in front of three hundred people (all reciters of Quran). The last two verses are from Quran.

The first one however is a TEHREEF: (" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust."). There is no such verse in Quran, Not even a similar verse!

Also this Full sura the size of Surah Bara'at he is talking about does not exist.

This Un-known verse NEVER EXISTED and was never included in Quran. Thus another attempt to add verses to Quran (Tehreef) was nullified.

Interestingly this Tehreef does Not even sound like a translation from Allah's book. Indeed it is a challenge for ever that no man can come up with a single Ayat equal to even a small Ayat in Sura Kausar. MashaAallah.

No matter how many times Umat tried to add or subtract from Quran it failed. Why, because Allah himself is the protector of His book. Again:

"No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise." Al-Quran 41:42

-[b:post_uid0]About Shan-e-Nuzul (order of Ayats) [/b:post_uid0]

It is also a FACT, that Quran is not in the order it was revealed. For example we all know that the first chapter of Quran is AL-FATIHA which is not the first Ayat revealed. The first Ayat revealed to the Holy Prophet (SAWW) was AL-ALAQ (The Clot, Iqra, Read) present in Chapter 96. But that is fine as long as the words remain the same.

-[b:post_uid0]SHIA SCHOLARS SAY ABOUT QURAN[/b:post_uid0]

As said by a Shia scholar Allama Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar:

"We believe that the Holy Quran is revealed by Allah through the Holy Prophet of Islam dealing with every thing which is necessary for the guidance of mankind. It is an everlasting miracle of the Holy Prophet the like of which can not be produced by human mind. It excels in its eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge. This Divine Book has not been tampered with by any one. This Holy Book which we recite today is the same Holy Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet. Any one who claims it to be otherwise is an evil-doer, a mere sophist, or else he is sadly mistaken. All of those who have this line of thinking have gone astray as Allah in Quran Said: "Falsehood can not reach the Quran from any direction (41:42)"

We can conclude the following:

1-Looking at narrations from Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim (and others) it is clear that sahaba have tried to do Tehreef in Quran. All such attempts have FAILED and InshaAllah Quran will remain as it is for ever.

2-We can find hadith is Sunni books also that indicate Tahreef.

3-Allah has protected Quran himself.

4-It is clear from the quotations from Shia Ulema, Logic, factual evidence in homes, Mosques, Museums and Libraries around the world and also Ayat 41-42 of Quran is a witness itself, that SHIA DO NOT BELIEVE IN TEHREEF-E-QURAN.

In fact TAHREEF IS NOT POSSIBLE, any one who believes in Tahreef is a Lier.

I hope this has answered your question. May Allah protect us from such Fitnas.

Khuda Hafiz

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On the issue of hadith, there are several types of hadith, for example:

-Hadith Qudsi: Saying of Allah (that is not part of Quran).

-Hadith Rasool (SAWW): Saying of the Prophet (SAWW)

-Hadith Imam (as): Saying of the Ahly BAit Imams (as).

-Hadith Sahaba (ra): Saying of the Sahaba (ra)

Regarding Hadith Imam (as), Shia believe that Imam's do not receive Wahi (revelation). They however get their hadith from the previous Imam and so on all the way to the Prophet (SAWW) himself.

Again this does not mean that every hadith attributed to the Imams in Shia books is authantic. Hadith Science is a seperate subject called "Ilm il-Rejal" and scholars spend a lot of time studying haditha and their chains of narrators to determine its authanticity.

Khuda HAfiz.

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ASSalam-0-Alaikum,

followeroftherasul....i would really recommend you to goto to

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia

and read the whole book it will answer many of your questions...trust me :)

walaikum as salam...

Edited by Hameedeh
Link to the book was updated.
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Aslamo 3alikum,

Bro. followeroftherasul...First make onething very clear that we dont have any book like Bukhari or Muslim,for which we say that it is mistake-less ...Although Usul Kafi,By Sheikh Kulayni,is considered authentic amongst the shiahs but if you will read what Kulayni has written about it you will find that he has wrote the traditions by doing a lot of research on them,but he has himself written that there may be a false tradition in it....We think that only Koran is the book which is complete and mistake-less.

The completeness of Quran is so indisputable among Shia that the greatest scholar of Shia in Hadith, Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn al-Husain Ibn Babwayh, known as "Shaykh Saduq" (309/919-381/991), wrote:

"[i:post_uid1]Our belief is that the Quran which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn).And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."[/i:post_uid1] Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, p77

It is noteworthy that Shaykh Saduq lived at the time of minor occultation of Imam Mahdi (as) and he was one of the earliest Shia scholars. He had the honor that he was born with the prayer of Imam Mahdi (as).

and by the way brother,there are certain traditions in sunni books,which are called as sahih books,narrating that many of the verses of Holy Quran has been missing....:o

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