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In the Name of God بسم الله

WHY CHRISTIANITY FAILS...

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Its just childish jibber jabber, its so childlike that I think I will just give up.

They won't answer, and we don't sit around making little smiling faces, cussing them out and putting "LOL" signs on how 'bad' we are. Truly they are not dedicated to there cause. Had they examined our propositions they would be forced to reconsider there position and there ideology would come crumbling down.

Its like when someone is intellectually superior and all they can say is;

"Oh yeah, well....well...your hair is messed up. " Its utter nonsense.

entertainment and comic relief, more like stress, and dangerous proof to there little boxed world. But oh well, let them be. We can't stop the laughing and lies they permeat, just watch them crumble under there false demand for evidence even though it has been provided thousands of times.

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TRINITY and DAYSTAR

***You didn't answer my questions on who the creator is because you would be forced to conclude that Father Son and Spirit are all creators, you didn't answer my question on who is the Alpha and Omega because both God and his redeemer called themselves it. You didn't answer my queston on the ONE authority of Father Son and Spirit. You have failed. If you would have answere my questions you would be forced to conclude that God is Father Son and Spirit since only God creates, you would be forced to conclude that ONE authority meant that Father Son and Spirit were ONE in Unity, and you would be forced to say that the Redeemer and God being the Alpha and Omega would imply that the Redeemer is something equal to God. You are dead wrong***

The questions you've asked are not pertinent to my inquiries, regarding your so-called "faith". Tell you what, pretend you understand what the phrase..."rational thinking" means and simply go to your bible and produce the verbatim quotes where the principle beings of your faith, actually SAY what you SAY THEY SAY/SAID, okey dokey? :D Don't you get it yet?, it is unethical and in some cases illegal to say someone said something and then you not produce their actual quotes.

***Your Muslims friends won't even support you, because like us they have dismissed you as ignorant. You can't continue with the demands that you have set forth considering the fact that you can't provide a single verse where I have to prove my doctrine VERBATIM. You have lost.

You think that they haven't noticed that EVERY SINGLE time I have asked you to answer my question you have just laughed it off with Light. Thats idiocy at is best. You are truly just not trustworthy in what you say.

Go ahead, I bet you'll continue to laught and smile, but let everyone know once more, we have debated you fair and balanced you NOT EVEN ONCE answered ANY of my questions. ***

LOLHysterically!!! What? do you think the other Muslims don't support my Light Upon Light's critique of your theology? Tell you what...why don't you ask them :D

Anyway...1Thess.5:21...prove all things.. Well, with this verse in mind then, if you are going to quote someone i.e. "Jesus said he was Almighty God", then you are required to prove that...it's just that simple.

Thus far, you haven't been able to go to your bible and prove any of your theological wishful thinkings...why is that? Even you aren't that dense that you can't see that.

The bible tells its adherents to...prove all things, so, here, apply 1Thess.5:21 to the following:

1.The Greek scriptures, from which the English transaltions derive, identify only three natures...theos-God Almighty; pneumatikos-Spirit; and anthropos-fully human, hence, I've been asking Woj and Daystar, to prove the following:

If Jesus, had a dual nature nature, meaning fully God and fully human, as they claim he does, why can't they produce the term for a dual nature nature i.e. theoanthropos, from the original Greek scriptures or even in the English versions?

2. If Almighty God, is a triune god, then why can't they produce the term trinity in the bible; why can't they find the verse where Almighty God says...I am triune God; and why can't they find the verse which speaks of a tri nature nature?

3. If Jesus, is Almighty God, then why can't they produce the verse which says verbatin/word for word, where Jesus says...I am God.

4. Likewise, why can't they produce the verse where Almighty God says verbatim/word for word that...Jesus, is Almighty God?

5. They claim Almighty God, cursed Adam and Eve, however, they have yet to produce the verse where Almighty God says, verbatim...I cursed Adam and Eve".

6. They cannot produce the verse where Jesus says verbatim..."I have come to die for the sins of mankind past, present and future".

7. They cannot produce the verse where Paul says, verbatim..."Jesus/Christ, is Almighty God".

***entertainment and comic relief, more like stress, and dangerous proof to there little boxed world. But oh well, let them be. We can't stop the laughing and lies they permeat, just watch them crumble under there false demand for evidence even though it has been provided thousands of times.***

If you want to stop the laughing, then all you have to do is get serious and prove the above 7 items...or just...one of them. You see, no one takes baloney seriously, so, stop with your baloney:D

LOL! Good luck and get busy :!!!:

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TRINITY

***Its just childish jibber jabber, its so childlike that I think I will just give up.  They won't answer, and we don't sit around making little smiling faces, cussing them out and putting "LOL" signs on how 'bad' we are. Truly they are not dedicated to there cause. Had they examined our propositions they would be forced to reconsider there position and there ideology would come crumbling down.***

We did consider them and that is why we asked you to, per 1Thess.5:21, to bring the verbatim quotes for what you said the principle beings of your faith said. Why can't you simply do that one simple thing? Do you, ever, want to misquoted or have someone say you said something, which you didn't, yet, insist that you did? The only gibberish are yours, Woj's and Daystar's lame,nonsensical and convoluted ramblings which you want to pass of "proof" of your theology. :D

***Its like when someone is intellectually superior and all they can say is; "Oh yeah, well....well...your hair is messed up. " Its utter nonsense.  entertainment and comic relief, more like stress, and dangerous proof to there little boxed world.***

LOL!! We laugh at you, because you present yourselves as fools/jesters. It is a jester who, says things that are pure foolishness, and when you insist that people believe in your theology and you cannot prove that theology, well, that is foolishness. You know this is well as I.

***But oh well, let them be. We can't stop the laughing and lies they permeat, just watch them crumble under there false demand for evidence even though it has been provided thousands of times.***

We've told no lies...we've simply asked you to account for yours. :D

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You never provided me with a scripture that I have to prove my doctrines to you verbatim. Furthermore in Timothy he says that ALL scripture is God breathes and useful for teaching, and rebuking.

All of what I have told you and ask you you have been afraid to answer. Timothy makes ALL scripture NOT just the words of Jesus but ALL of it the WORD of GOD. Therefore we can safely say that God said Father is creator Son is creator and Spirit is creator. God also said he is the alpha and omega along with his redeemer. All of these are verbatim quotes.

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In a murder detectives don't require a 'verbatim' quote from the suspect to prove the murder, they simply add up the EVIDENCE and conclude. As we have done with the doctrine of the Trinity, its is systematically arrived to. God is called creator. Father is called creator, Son is called creator and Spirit is called creator therefore God is Father Son and Spirit. Since only God creates, and has the power to. You are wrong buddy just try and answer my questions, don't say they are irrelevant that isn't a valid dismissal.

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TRINITY

***In a murder detectives don't require a 'verbatim' quote from the suspect to prove the murder, they simply add up the EVIDENCE and conclude.***

Your analogy, as with your "faith", fails and here's why. The detectives cannot, repeat, cannot, say a suspect said such and such, knowing full well, the suspect did not say to them that he/she said such and such. If the detectives were to do that, then that would be bearing false witness. Also, if you've ever been in a courtroom, you should be aware of the...stenographers, who, are recording VERBATIM what is being said ad by whom for future reference. Each time you and your co-religionists say Almighty God and/or Jesus said such and such, and then not produce the verbatim evidence that they said such and such, you too are bearing false witness.

And yes, the questions which you asked are irrelevent to my inquiries. The following are the foundational tenets of your faith invention.

Your bible tells its adherents to...prove all things, so, here, apply 1Thess.5:21 to the following:

1.The Greek scriptures, from which the English transaltions derive, identify only three natures...theos-God Almighty; pneumatikos-Spirit; and anthropos-fully human, hence, I've been asking Woj and Daystar, to prove the following:

If Jesus, had a dual nature nature, meaning fully God and fully human, as they claim he does, why can't they produce the term for a dual nature nature i.e. theoanthropos, from the original Greek scriptures or even in the English versions?

Please provide the verbatim quotes by the principle beings of your faith, whom, you say, said such and such.

2. If Almighty God, is a triune god, then why can't they produce the term trinity in the bible; why can't they find the verse where Almighty God says...I am triune God; and why can't they find the verse which speaks of a tri nature nature?

3. If Jesus, is Almighty God, then why can't they produce the verse which says verbatin/word for word, where Jesus says...I am God.

4. Likewise, why can't they produce the verse where Almighty God says verbatim/word for word that...Jesus, is Almighty God?

5. They claim Almighty God, cursed Adam and Eve, however, they have yet to produce the verse where Almighty God says, verbatim...I cursed Adam and Eve".

6. They cannot produce the verse where Jesus says verbatim..."I have come to die for the sins of mankind past, present and future".

7. They cannot produce the verse where Paul says, verbatim..."Jesus/Christ, is Almighty God".

Prove all things...1Thess.5:21

Edited by THE_ICONOCLAST
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Answer this; Where does my bible require that I prove verbatim the doctrines that I have set forth.

According to you who is creator?

According to the Bible this is who is creator.

Isaiah 64

8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Collosians 15

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Job 33

4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Now according to the Bible, which is ALL God breathed, and inspired and useful for teaching, and rebuking. We have the Father, Son and Spirit creating. Only God can create therefore Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God.

If you aren't going to argue my point then just give it up because you are not presenting a fair and balanced debate.

Your analogy, as with your "faith", fails and here's why. The detectives cannot, repeat, cannot, say a suspect said such and such, knowing full well, the suspect did not say to them that he/she said such and such.

I am saying that the attributes which yourself and I, ascribe solely to God, such as forgiving sins, being creator, and being the alpha and omega all belong to Father Son and Holy Spirit and if that is the case then we can safely CONCLUDE that they are all God.

So I do know that God said he created me it says it in the verse above as with the Son and Holy Spirit. I do know that Father and Son are alpha and omega it says it in the Bible which is Godbreathed - Godinspired therefore useful for teaching and rebuking.

NOw you my friend have been rebuked. Give up the verse prove all things because you can't prove to me that I need to prove to you everything VERBATIM.

you STILL can't.

Edited by trinity3n1
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TRINITY, DAYSTAR, WOJ and the rest of CHRISTIANDOM

Answer this; Where does my bible require that I prove verbatim the doctrines that I have set forth...NOw you my friend have been rebuked. Give up the verse prove all things because you can't prove to me that I need to prove to you everything VERBATIM.  you STILL can't.

LOL! Listen Trinity, do you have at least three functioning brain cells left? Don't you realize yet that it is unacceptable to Almighty God and man for either of them to be misquoted? Don't you know yet to misquote someone can end up with your being sued?

Main Entry: QUOTE: to give exact information on.

Main Entry: EXACT: exhibiting or marked by strict, particular, and complete accordance with fact or a standard: marked by thorough consideration or minute measurement of small factual details.

Main Entry: VERBATIMin the exact words : word for word : being in or following the exact words.

Hence, when you quote, you are being exact and verbatim. If you don't quote someone exactly, then you are either paraphrasing that individual until you can obtain his/her exact quote, misquoting by error which can be corrected once his/her exact quote is produced, or simply outright lying about that individual.

I ask you again with Almighty God as your witness...would you want to be misquoted? Would you want anyone to say that you said something that, you, in fact, did not say? Would you want ths for yourself or your loved ones? Would you want Light Upon Light or myself to say that you said something which you really didn't say? And, if we did, wouldn't you say..."show me where I said such and such and demand that we produce--verbatim, what we said you said? Is that justice? Do you then, think that Almighty God, Jesus, Paul or anyone for that matter is less entitled to have what you would want for yourself or your loved ones? Is that justice?

Isa. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Now, you and your co-religionist and your "faith" repeatedly quote that, Jesus said he is God; that Jesus said he came to die die for the sins of man past, present, and future; that God said He cursed Adam and Eve; that Paul said Jesus is God; etc.

Now, do justice and go find me the verses from your bible where the principle beings of your faith SAID waht you say they said.

1. If Almighty God, is a triune god, then why can't they produce the term trinity in the bible; why can't they find the verse where Almighty God says...I am triune God; and why can't they find the verse which speaks of a tri nature nature?

2. If Jesus, is Almighty God, then why can't they produce the verse which says verbatin/word for word, where Jesus says...I am God.

3. Likewise, why can't they produce the verse where Almighty God says verbatim/word for word that...Jesus, is Almighty God?

4. They claim Almighty God, cursed Adam and Eve, however, they have yet to produce the verse where Almighty God says, verbatim...I cursed Adam and Eve".

5. They cannot produce the verse where Jesus says verbatim..."I have come to die for the sins of mankind past, present and future".

6. They cannot produce the verse where Paul says, verbatim..."Jesus/Christ, is Almighty God".

If you aren't going to argue my point then just give it up because you are not presenting a fair and balanced debate.

The above are your theological points.

Isa. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice...

Thus...

1Thess.5:21 "Prove all things...

No, Trinity...it is you, Daystar, Woj, and the rest of Christiandom, who have been REBUKED...by your own book. :D

Edited by THE_ICONOCLAST
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TO TRINITY, WOJ, DAYSTAR, KARAITE AND...THE REST OF CHRISTIANDOM,

Can any of you tell me what the following verse means?

Psalms 6:8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

[Day] Only if you promise not to invoke 1 Thes. 5:21, verbatims, etc. :-)

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***Only if you promise not to invoke 1 Thes. 5:21, verbatims ***

Only if you promise to present facts and not conjecture.

[Day] We have always given you nothing but truth and fact. As I recall, you had a problem with that :-)

Anyway, what does the word iniquity mean to you?

[Day] My understanding of iniquity is the deviation away from doing what is just. In that sense, it may not attach the same meaning as more specific sins and transgressions of the law. Remember, no more Iconoclisms :-)

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***[Day] My understanding of iniquity is the deviation away from doing what is just. In that sense, it may not attach the same meaning as more specific sins and transgressions of the law.***

You are not far off. The word, iniquity, in the Hebrew is "awen" which means "wickedness", "evil", "trouble". In the Greek, the term is "anomia" and it is the strongest word for sin that exists. Iniquity/anomia, is not only a violation of the Law, but is in fact lawlessness, that is, not having the Law. The other Greek terms for types of sin are: harmatia-to "sin", "fault"; agnoema- to sin out of 'ignorance"; parabasis-to "transgress" the law knowingly. As you can see, anomia/iniquity, means to sin due to not having the Law.

Matt.7:21 "None of those who cry out, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'

Matt.7:23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers [workers of iniquity].'

The above verses establish that, in the world to come, those who have done things in his name [only the Christians do things in his name], will be sent to Hell. The Christians will be sent to Hell, because they do not live by the Law [only the Torah and the Quran are laws from Almighty God.]...they are lawless, hence, their works are sin.

Edited by THE_ICONOCLAST
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ICON WROTE:

Matt.7:21 "None of those who cry out, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'

Matt.7:23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers [workers of iniquity].'

The above verses establish that, in the world to come, those who have done things in his name [only the Christians do things in his name],

[Day] Jesus said, "Many will say...did we not prophesy in your name.." Notice he doesn't say beleivers. He is only revealing that there will be many people who ask Jesus this question, at which point he will say, "No, you did not do these things in my name...depart from me." Hence, they were not true believers, rather self professing. Notice that Jesus says, "I never KNEW you." This is one of the strongest terms Jesus uses to reveal those who belong to him. Not only does God KNOW who his children are before the foundation of the world, He KNOWS them intimately. He did not KNOW any of these false professors of Christ who only thought they were doing things in his name. In verses 7:15-20, Jesus is talking about false prophets, teachers, etc. The logical conclusion is that he is also talking about them in 7:21-23.

will be sent to Hell. The Christians will be sent to Hell, because they do live Law [only the Torah and the Quran are laws form Almighty God.]...they are lawleness, hence, their works are sin.

[Day] Icon, they are not Christians. OTOH, "IF" they are true Christians, then they will be denied any role in Christ's kingdom because he didn't know them. But I don't accept this explanation. "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness" are very strong words. He uses these same words ("depart from me") in Matt. 25:41 where those who depart go into the eternal fire.

Peace,

Day

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LOL! you can't deny this. When Jesus is called kurios, you make him god, but what about everybody who is called kurios?

You're not going to make them your god? How mean.

Typical Christian double standard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah right.. how about this type of Muslim reasoning which is found countless times in this board.

Muslim: Prove me so and so.. show me in the Bible where it says this and that

Christian: It says it in here, here and here

Muslim: The Bible is corrupted and full of lies and can't be trusted.

Seems to NOT be corrupted when it suits your purposes, but full of lies when you don't like what it says.

So it's only apt you talk about double standards, as your the main culprit.

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DAYSTAR

***This is one of the strongest terms Jesus uses to reveal those who belong to him. Not only does God KNOW who his children are before the foundation of the world, He KNOWS them intimately. He did not KNOW any of these false professors of Christ who only thought they were doing things in his name. In verses 7:15-20, Jesus is talking about false prophets, teachers, etc. The logical conclusion is that he is also talking about them in 7:21-23.***

As is your custom to do, you resort to conjecture. Nothing in those verses mentions anything about "true believers" or "untrue" believers. What is clearly mentioned is the fate of those who say/do things in the name of Jesus, something which he never authorized anyone to do. Everything Christians say/do they preface with "in the name of our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ". Don't you, yourself, utter this formula daily?

***Icon, they are not Christians. OTOH, "IF" they are true Christians, then they will be denied any role in Christ's kingdom because he didn't know them. But I don't accept this explanation. "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness" are very strong words. He uses these same words ("depart from me") in Matt. 25:41 where those who depart go into the eternal fire. ***

That you don't accept the explanation is nothing new. You've always been adverse to facts. Jesus, in the world to come, will clear himself of Christiandom because they refused to accept the Law of Moses and Al-Quran. The Christians live and die outside of Law...they are lawless/outlaws, and, according to Matthew 7:21-23, Christians will be driven to Hell. I suggest you stop conjecturing and accept facts before you die for then it will be too late. The tsunami which struck the other idolaters, should be a sign to you. Contemplate these ayats from the Quran:

39:53. Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

39:54. "Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped.

39:55. "And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you - of a sudden while ye perceive not!-

39:56. "Lest the soul should (then) say: 'Ah! Woe is me!- In that I neglected (my duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'-

39:57. "Or (lest) it should say: 'If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'-

39:58. "Or (lest) it should say when it (actually) sees the penalty: 'If only I had another chance, I should certainly be among those who do good!'

39:59. "(The reply will be:) 'Nay, but there came to thee my Signs, and thou didst reject them: thou wast Haughty, and became one of those who reject faith!'"

Use your head while you still have it.

Edited by THE_ICONOCLAST
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Jat!

After more than 2000 years u still don't know where to put your salvation.

Its awfil to read ur book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well this was neither brilliant nor funny.

For more than 2000 years u are worshipping a human being,thats more awful than anything else.

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DAYSTAR

***This is one of the strongest terms Jesus uses to reveal those who belong to him. Not only does God KNOW who his children are before the foundation of the world, He KNOWS them intimately. He did not KNOW any of these false professors of Christ who only thought they were doing things in his name. In verses 7:15-20, Jesus is talking about false prophets, teachers, etc. The logical conclusion is that he is also talking about them in 7:21-23.***

As is your custom to do, you resort to conjecture. Nothing in those verses mentions anything about "true believers" or "untrue" believers. What is clearly mentioned is the fate of those who say/do things in the name of Jesus, something which he never authorized anyone to do. Everything Christians say/do they preface with "in the name of our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ". Don't you, yourself, utter this formula daily?

[Day] Yes, I aspire to do all in his name. Conjecture? OK, let's test your reasoning abilities. First, do you think anyone who PRACTICES LAWLESSNESS (sin), and to whom Jesus says, I NEVER KNEW YOU and DEPART FROM ME, is more suitable to heaven or hell? Secondly, do you see any reason why Jesus wouldn't be talking about the false prophets he referred to in verse 15? Third, do you think TRUE BELIEVERS will bear bad fruit, be cut down and then thrown into the fire? (vs. 19).

Jesus doesn't "authorize" anyone NOT to speak in his name. There are many today who profess his name but bear no good fruit (Matt. 7:19).

If you will simply apply reason to the things above, you will see that the ones of whom Jesus spoke, are not Christians. Please give any other reasoning why you think they are.

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Well this was neither brilliant nor funny.

For more than 2000 years u are worshipping a human being,thats more awful than anything else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't care that you didn't find it funny. As for worshipping a human being, well, I think it's been discussed enough without going over it again. I could say that you are worshipping a Pagan Moon God.

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DAYSTAR

***Yes, I aspire to do all in his name.***

Then you will be in the company of those who are condemned, according to Matthew 7:21-23, unless of course, you change your position.

***Conjecture? OK, let's test your reasoning abilities. First, do you think anyone who PRACTICES LAWLESSNESS (sin), and to whom Jesus says, I NEVER KNEW YOU and DEPART FROM ME, is more suitable to heaven or hell?***

Hell, of course.

***Secondly, do you see any reason why Jesus wouldn't be talking about the false prophets he referred to in verse 15? Third, do you think TRUE BELIEVERS will bear bad fruit, be cut down and then thrown into the fire? (vs. 19).***

The verses are clear, Day. They only talk about those who say and do works in Jesus's name, period. You want to put all kinds of stipulations on that where the verses don't. Your "reasoning" or should I say...Christospeak, blinds you from this. No other people on the earth, save Christians, say "in the name of Jesus". Whoever says "I do in the name of Jesus", whether they think themselves true believers or not, and what Christian doesn't believe that he/she is a "true believer"?, is in the company of those who will be told to depart from the presence of Jesus.

***Jesus doesn't "authorize" anyone NOT to speak in his name. There are many today who profess his name but bear no good fruit (Matt. 7:19).***

More of your soul destroying game playing. Matt.7:19, is simply being explained by 21-23. The lawless, that is, those who deny Torah and Quran, the two Laws from Almighty God, are the ones being defined in the Matt.7:21-23. Christiandom, the work of Paul, by its own admission does not live by the Law but by "grace", something btw that Jesus never said, hence, Christiandom, by definition, is the religion of lawlessness. Listen, simply because Jesus didn't say "don't use my name [and he might have, I need to research this.] still doesn't give anyone permission to say emphatically that he did or behave as if he did. This is what is meant by "misrepresentation" [the very foundation of Christian apologetics]. What is plain is that, he mentions the fate of those who do preface their works or justify their work in his name.

***If you will simply apply reason to the things above, you will see that the ones of whom Jesus spoke, are not Christians. Please give any other reasoning why you think they are. ***

As I said, it can ONLY be Christians of whom Jesus is speaking in Matt.21-23, because Christians are the only ones who say/do things in his name. To be a Christian or as you put it..." a true believer", one must say/do things in the name of Jesus, am I not correct? If you will notice, the verses are referring to what will happen, that is, in the world to come, hence, the verses, once again, can only be referring to those who identify themselves as Christians.

There is no refutation of this reasoning. You'd better wake up, Day before a "tsunamic" event overwhelms you.

Edited by THE_ICONOCLAST
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I don't care that you didn't find it funny.  As for worshipping a human being, well, I think it's been discussed enough without going over it again.  I could say that you are worshipping a Pagan Moon God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We worship Allah.And if this to u is name of moon god then millions of arab christians also worship moon god,coz this the word they use for God.

Edited by Jat
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ICON WROTE:

The verses are clear, Day. They only talk about those who say and do works in Jesus's name, period.

[Day] Matt. 7:21-23 is ONLY about those who THOUGHT they did and said things in the name of Jesus. But there are TRUE CHRISTIANS who produce the fruit he spoke of in these verses. To illustrate how non-Chritians can give the appearance of true Christians, observe Jesus' parable about wheat and tares (Matt. 13:24-30).

Christiandom, the work of Paul, by its own admission does not live by the Law but by "grace", something btw that Jesus never said,

[Day] The Apostle John said, "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17) I guess John and Jesus disagreed.

hence, Christiandom, by definition, is the religion of lawlessness.

[Day] Please give me your understanding of these verses:

MATT. 9:16,17:

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.â€

You want to put all kinds of stipulations on that where the verses don't. Your "reasoning" or should I say...Christospeak, blinds you from this. No other people on the earth, save Christians, say "in the name of Jesus".

[Day] No other people? Let me give you a biblical example of some people who were NOT Christians, but who spoke in the name of Jesus.

ACTS 19:13-16:

"Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demonpossessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.†14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?†16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding."

Whoever says "I do in the name of Jesus", whether they think themselves true believers or not, and what Christian doesn't believe that he/she is a "true believer"?, is in the company of those who will be told to depart from the presence of Jesus.

[Day] Do you think the twelve apostles, whom Jesus chose, will be in this group? And what about Abraham and King David?

The lawless, that is, those who deny Torah and Quran, the two Laws from Almighty God, are the ones being defined in the Matt.7:21-23.

[Day] Did you know that Christians DO live according to the requirements of the law?

***If you will simply apply reason to the things above, you will see that the ones of whom Jesus spoke, are not Christians.

[Day] Huh? That's what I have been saying. They are NOT Christians.

Please give any other reasoning why you think they are. As I said, it can ONLY be Christians of whom Jesus is speaking in Matt.21-23, because Christians are the only ones who say/do things in his name.

[Day] I hope the above example will persuade you that not all who say or do "in the name of Jesus" are Christians. Another example is where Paul says there are those who "have a form of godliness, but deny its power." (2 Tim. 3:5). Many are the "sayers and doers" who give the appearance of Christianity, and such are they who will find themselves saying, "But Jesus....." after he has said depart from me.

There is no refutation of this reasoning. You'd better wake up, Day before a "tsunamic" event overwhelms you.

[Day] As always, your reasoning has been refuted. "Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Tim. 3:7). Sounds like Paul had you in mind :-)

"Grace" and peace to you in the name of Jesus,

Day

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DAYSTAR

ICON WROTE:The verses are clear, Day. They only talk about those who say and do works in Jesus's name, period.

***Matt. 7:21-23 is ONLY about those who THOUGHT they did and said things in the name of Jesus. But there are TRUE CHRISTIANS who produce the fruit he spoke of in these verses. To illustrate how non-Chritians can give the appearance of true Christians, observe Jesus' parable about wheat and tares (Matt. 13:24-30).***

LOL! Oh, they thought they were Christians LOL! What?! are you kidding?! Do you know of any Christians who, will tell you that they are not believers or that they thought they weren’t Christians, what are you talking about?

Christiandom, the work of Paul, by its own admission does not live by the Law but by "grace", something btw that Jesus never said,

***[Day] The Apostle John said, "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17) I guess John and Jesus disagreed.***

John wasn’t a prophet and Jesus himself never said such a thing…now did he? Jesus, lived by the Law of Moses and commanded others to do the same thing.

Matt.5

[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

***[Day] Please give me your understanding of these verses:MATT. 9:16,17:

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.â€***

My interpretation or yours for that matter, has nothing whatsoever to do with Matt. 721:23. The issue of concern is, those who say/do things in the name of Lord Jesus. It is those who do say/do things in his name who will be condemned.

***[Day] No other people? Let me give you a biblical example of some people who were NOT Christians, but who spoke in the name of Jesus. ACTS 19:13-16:"Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demonpossessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.†14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?†16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding."***

LOL! The Jews who did things in Jesus’s name are just as guilty as Christians who say/do things in his name. Remember, the Matt.721-23 says those who say “Lord Lord†and do things in his name are condemned. Jews, at least today, do not say or do anything in the name of Jesus, only the Christians do this, period.

Whoever says "I do in the name of Jesus", whether they think themselves true believers or not, and what Christian doesn't believe that he/she is a "true believer"?, is in the company of those who will be told to depart from the presence of Jesus.

***[Day] Do you think the twelve apostles, whom Jesus chose, will be in this group? And what about Abraham and King David?***

Neither Abraham nor David, said or did anything in the name of Jesus. Please post the verse where they used his name. As far as the the twelve apostles are concerned, if they said/did anything in the name of Jesus [Jesus, never told them to do any such thing], then they too are condemned.

***[Day] Did you know that Christians DO live according to the requirements of the law?***

No, the Christians do not live by the requirements of the Law, for if they did they would be Jews today and Matt.7:21-23 would not apply to them. Jews do not say/do anything in the name of Jesus. The following verses prove that Christians do not live by the Law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

***If you will simply apply reason to the things above, you will see that the ones of whom Jesus spoke, are not Christians.***

[Day] Huh? That's what I have been saying. They are NOT Christians.

LOL! Wake up will you! You are responding to your own statement to me. The comment between the asterisk, is yours to me.

***[Day] I hope the above example will persuade you that not all who say or do "in the name of Jesus" are Christians. Another example is where Paul says there are those who "have a form of godliness, but deny its power." (2 Tim. 3:5). Many are the "sayers and doers" who give the appearance of Christianity, and such are they who will find themselves saying, "But Jesus....." after he has said depart from me.***

You still don’t get it do you? It doesn’t matter who says/does anything in the name of Jesus, they are still condemned, because neither God nor Jesus said to say/do anything in the name of Jesus. As I said, the only people past and present, who say/do anything in the name of Lord Jesus, are the ones who identify themselves as…Christians; no one else does that but them. As a result of this, Jesus, in the world to come, will tell the Christians to depart from his presence, hence, they will go to the Hell fire.

***[Day] As always, your reasoning has been refuted. "Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Tim. 3:7). Sounds like Paul had you in mind :-)***

LOL! On the contrary, Daystar, he had you in mind...the gullible. Stop fooling yourself, you’ve refuted nothing and Matt.7:21-23 refutes your theology and, tells you the consequence for it.

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ICON WROTE:

John wasn’t a prophet and Jesus himself never said such a thing…now did he? Jesus, lived by the Law of Moses and commanded others to do the same thing.

[Day] The Book of Revelation is mostly about prophecy. Guess who wrote it :-) Also, a Prophet does more than just foretell the future. He is also one who declares the word of God. Yes, yes, yes. Paul and Jesus lived under the law BEFORE CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED.

[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Day] The Mosaic laws (Torah) are not abolished. But they are of no effect in the life of the Jew who has been converted to Christ. That's what Rom. 8:4 is saying. The righteousness of the law is met in the believer because Christ fulfilled the law for him. If you can grasp this, you will have taken three giant steps towards the kingdom of God :-)

[Day] Please give me your understanding of these verses:MATT. 9:16,17:

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.â€***

My interpretation or yours for that matter, has nothing whatsoever to do with Matt. 721:23.

[Day] I didn't say they had anything to do with Matt. 7:21-23. I didn't intend them to. So please tell me what you think they mean.

LOL! The Jews who did things in Jesus’s name are just as guilty as Christians who say/do things in his name. Remember, the Matt.721-23 says those who say “Lord Lord†and do things in his name are condemned.

[Day] LOL back at you! You said only Christians speak in the name of Jesus. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Nothing will convince you how wrong you are. There is not one single Bible scholar I have read who believes the people in these verses are Christians. But I guess they're just not up to Iconospeed.

Jews, at least today, do not say or do anything in the name of Jesus, only the Christians do this, period.

[Day] Converted Jews ask and do in the name of Jesus. Are they condemned too? Do you think the twelve apostles, whom Jesus chose, will be in this group? And what about Abraham and King David?***

Neither Abraham nor David, said or did anything in the name of Jesus. Please post the verse where they used his name.

[Day] I never said they used, "in the name of Jesus." All I asked you is if you think they, along with the 12 Apostles, will be included with those in Matt. 7:21-23.

As far as the the twelve apostles are concerned, if they said/did anything in the name of Jesus [Jesus, never told them to do any such thing], then they too are condemned.

[Day] Jesus never told his disciples to do any such thing?

"And whatever you ask IN MY NAME, that will I do...." (John 14:13)

"Whatever you ask of the Father IN MY NAME, he may give it to you." (John 15:16)

"I say to you if you shall ask the Father for anything, he will give it to you IN MY NAME." (John 16:23)

"In that day you will ask IN MY NAME." (John 16:26)

In Acts 16:18, Paul commands a spirit of divination to come out of a woman, which it immediately did IN THE NAME OF JESUS. According to Iconotheology, Paul would go to hell for setting this woman free from a demon because he asked IN THE NAME OF JESUS, something Jesus himself said to do. Don't you want to rethink Matt. 7:21-23?

[Day] Did you know that Christians DO live according to the requirements of the law?

No, the Christians do not live by the requirements of the Law, for if they did they would be Jews today and Matt.7:21-23 would not apply to them. Jews do not say/do anything in the name of Jesus. The following verses prove that Christians do not live by the Law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[Day] I didn't phrase my question properly; my error. I should have said, "Did you know that the righteous requirement of the law is met in the person who lives by the Spirit? Christians don't "live" by the law as though they observe them like like Jews and Muslims. The "righteous requirement of the law (which Jesus fully kept) is fully met in those who live ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT (Rom. 8:4). There is all the difference in the world between observing the Mosaic laws for righteousness and having the righteousness of those laws imputed to the believer by the Spirit of Christ. Perhaps these will help:

"BUT NOW A RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD, APART FROM LAW, HAS BEEN MADE KNOWN, TO WHICH THE LAW AND PROPHETS TESTIFY. THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD COMES THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE." (Rom. 3:21,22)

IOW, it's as though God wraps up the entire law and puts it inside the spirit of the person who trusts in Christ WITHOUT HAVING TO OBSERVE THEM LIKE THE JEWS DO. This is what it means to be UNDER GRACE, NOT LAW (Rom. 6:13). JESUS KEPT THE LAW PERFECTLY AND THAT PERFECTION IS IMPARTED TO THE ONE WHO TRUSTS IN HIM. THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW IS MET IN US WHO WALK BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD (Rom. 8:4).

I'm going to drill this verse into you until you get it :-)

All those verses you cited are indeed true. "The just shall live by faith, not by the works of the law." Good luck in trying to keep God's laws, for if you break just one, you are under the curse as you correctly cited (Deut. 27:16-27; Gal. 3:10).

I take you back to again to Abraham and David (since you believe the Apostles will all go to hell if they asked anything in Christ's name). Because according to Iconotheology, anyone who asks anything in Christ's name is condemned. Will they, esp. Abraham, be included with those to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you?"

Grace and peace to you in the name of Jesus,

Day

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Peace be upon you All,

Before I post my points, I just wanted to say that I am going to use pure logic, and will not refer to Holy Quran and the Holy Bible. For the sake of being objective, God willing.

First, Jesus, as like many of the other prophets before him, was obviously an extremely pious and humble man. Now tell me, when Jesus was constantly praying, when he fasted for 40 days on just greens (veges). Tell me, who was he praying to? Tell me, who was he fasting for? :angel:

Secondly, this is a known fact between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. God, hands down undisputed is an ABSOLUTE and INFINITE being. Now tell me, go and ask a mathematics professor, "Can one devide infinity by 2?" Because if you do ask him, he will laugh you right out of the lecture hall. Because you cannot divide infinity, and you therefore cannot divide Allah, and Allah cannot beget.

Thirdly, you might say to me, well God is all powerful, why can he not create another God, ie. Jesus. If its his will, then it will be. Well then, God is the creator right, and ANYTHING he creates is thereby the creation. So it is a nonsensical statement to say that God can create another god (ie. Jesus).

May God be With you ALWAYS and guide you to his Light, and to the Straighpath.

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Peace be upon you All,

Before I post my points, I just wanted to say that I am going to use pure logic, and will not refer to Holy Quran and the Holy Bible. For the sake of being objective, God willing.

[Day] I don't think that logic can always be applied to God for the simple reason that he chooses to function outside of it.

First, Jesus, as like many of the other prophets before him, was obviously an extremely pious and humble man. Now tell me, when Jesus was constantly praying, when he fasted for 40 days on just greens (veges). Tell me, who was he praying to? Tell me, who was he fasting for? :angel:

[Day] From his humanity, Jesus always prayed to His Father. As God, there's no need to pray. Fasting was not part of the law, rather is a spiritual exercise whereby one denies the flesh or self for a given period of time. Physically, that is healthwise, it's a good thing to do. As far as I can see, neither the law or God requires fasting.

Secondly, this is a known fact between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. God, hands down undisputed is an ABSOLUTE and INFINITE being. Now tell me, go and ask a mathematics professor, "Can one devide infinity by 2?" Because if you do ask him, he will laugh you right out of the lecture hall. Because you cannot divide infinity, and you therefore cannot divide Allah, and Allah cannot beget.

[Day] God is not divided by having a Son. Why do you think that divides God? The Son of God was begotten in the sense that Jesus was unique, one of a kind. That's what the greek "monogenes" means. But there is no law or principle that says God cannot exist in three persons. When Adam and Eve were joined by God they became ONE flesh (Gen. 2:24). How can that be? They are two separate fleshes. Separate or joined, they are still flesh. Neither one is more or less flesh in their separate persons than they are joined together as ONE flesh. Likewise, Father, Son and Spirit are just as God as separate persons as they are as the indivisible Godhead.

Thirdly, you might say to me, well God is all powerful, why can he not create another God, ie. Jesus. If its his will, then it will be.

[Day] But his will is that He exists as one God in three persons.

Well then, God is the creator right, and ANYTHING he creates is thereby the creation. So it is a nonsensical statement to say that God can create another god (ie. Jesus).

[Day] Right :-)

Grace and peace in the name of Jesus,

Day

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