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In the Name of God بسم الله

True Christians in action

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Mr. Matthew, what part of the USA do you live in? You seem to espouse some very radical ideas on religion, politics, and society. If we are to believe your postings from these news papers, the community you live in is also quite radical. I'm not going to say anything good or bad about your post. I'm just curious were this community is located.

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Mr. Matthew, what part of the USA do you live in? You seem to espouse some very radical ideas on religion, politics, and society. If we are to believe your postings from these news papers, the community you live in is also quite radical. I'm not going to say anything good or bad about your post. I'm just curious were this community is located.

Who cares where he lives? This guy is a nut. He's probably holed up somewhere in N. Dakota plotting a federal building.

-Fellow Christian

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Who cares where he lives? This guy is a nut. He's probably holed up somewhere in N. Dakota plotting a federal building.

-Fellow Christian

He might be crazy, but I'll leave that to a psychiatrist to decide. I'm just curious what part of the USA has those kind of thoughts. The stereotype would be someplace rural with an under educated population, but I did not want to stereotype the man.

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Salaam Alaikum

Christianity today is a term used by many different people for many different religions. These differences are essential to be known, for many amongst those calling themselves Christian are the enemies of Islam, and not Ahlul Kitaab.

Mr. "Reverend Matthew" is a perfect example of this yet many brothers and sisters will fail to see it unfortunatly. At times words such as extremist or fundamentalist come into minds in accordance to the modern western tradition in semantics, but never is being question: how exactly are all these people Christian? Are those al-Nassare whose wifes are lawful upon us?

True Christians mr. Matthew, practice Christianity and not the overgrown frankenstein religions of the united states. What is left of the Christianity in your beliefs? Your philosophies stern from the false copy of the false copy of the false copy of the revelations that Christianity went by as it flourished as a religion.

How can you call yourself Christian, when there today still exist Orthodox Christianity that survived from the days of Antioch teaching the new testament in the language Jesus spoke?

I have relatives that are Christian, they are Syrian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox and even Roman Catholic and NONE of them consider this evangelical zionistic herrasy that Bush and his people call Christianity as Christian of any kind.

What kind of Christianity goes around steeling sould from other Christian establishments? Why are Amerikans coming to Eastern-Europe to steel the souls of impoverished Orthodox Christians into their sect with money? Why are Catholics in the Americas pressured and haunted by Evangelists for their souls?

When these pseudo Christians thought to join their military counterparts in the invasion of Iraq and bring filth upon the Iraqi people all ORIGINAL Christian churches condemned this herrasy and called upon the Muslims not to leave their religion of ISLAM and believe what these imposters say and they repeated that these imposters are not really Christians.

No, these are not Christians indeed, they are CRUSADERS no different from history: and in that history the Orthodox of Sham fought against the occupation by the western crusaders and their pseudo-Christianity.

No Christianity for you "reverend"

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Unfortunately, in the US at least, evangelicals have become a legitimate form of Christianity. They espouse some non-Christian ideas and you'll see one church saying that only they have the truth and all the other Christians Churches are wrong and everyone else is going to hell. People actually buy that line of [Edited Out]. :!!!: Sometimes as little as 200 to 300 people might attend that church. That would mean according to their logic that only those 200 to 300 people are going to heaven. :blink: I've heard some crazy ideas, but that sure takes the cake. Oh well, to each their own.

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(salam)

What these "evangelists" don't realize (not even "Reverend" Matthew) is that they are members of an arcane cult that has totally distorted the original message of Christianity so much that all that's left is its bare shell, now filled with a bunch of Anglo-American nationalism, flag-worship, hypocritical preaching by crazy kooks, and threats against people who don't convert, usually in some way or another referring to hell.

And if you stood these people against any of the older Christian sects (even if you don't consider them "real" Christians), then they won't recognize each other. Put the Rev. here next to a Catholic, an Eastern Orthodox, an Anglican, a Lutheran, even a Southern Baptist, and the differences stand out like a sore thumb. The only people I can compare these born-again fanatics to are Jehovah's witnesses, Scientologists, or Branch Davidians. Maybe Mormons too, but that's a stretch.

In Islamic terms, these evangelists would be somewhat like the Qarmatis (Carmathians, the heretical sect that sacked Makkah and stole the black stone, and it was not returned for many years), or they might be like Hassan Sabbah's assassins.

Much of what they preach is totally ludicrous, but you see hundreds of their cult followers eagerly drinking it up as if they are the chosen and the rest of the world is damned.

The point is, don't be fooled into thinking these are the mainstream Christians or the true Massihiyya, because they are obviously nothing more than an extremist, right wing splinter group that wants to exclude and attack everybody else.

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Salaam Alaikum

Unfortunately, in the US at least, evangelicals have become a legitimate form of Christianity.

Im affraid this is the case in the west in general, but amongst many Christians worldwide however it didn't.

In the US many others appear to be considered Christian as well, certainly that is implied in the following demographic overview which includes all sorts of new sects:

http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/Demog...emographics.htm

The problem is that there are certain groups giving Christians a bad name in the eyes of Muslims due to constant insulting of Islam, and western-supremacist and imperialist tendencies.

As Muslims we have laws to abide when confronted with Christianity, and these imposters disturb the balance and incite brothers to change their attitude toward Christianity alltogether.

Anglo-American nationalism, flag-worship, hypocritical preaching by crazy kooks, and threats against people who don't convert, usually in some way or another referring to hell.

And yet there is more to it, their most essential characteristic has remained unmentioned: They are ZIONISTS. Like the Crusaders, a collection of historical imperialistic cults comparable to them today, they worship land and seek to liberate it in some sort of way: usually by driving out its native inhabitants.

For further elaboration, take a look at the last post in following topic:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35174

Often Zionism is related to Jews (or rather those claiming to be Jews) but this is only one counterpart of the whole dynamic, and the other is quite essential in particular to this promised land ideology and the engagements in its conquest:

In Amerika, there have derrived new forms of (alleged) Christianity from Protestantism which is a religion questionable of itself in Christian terms: This form is Evangelism, and is the religion of the majority of Amerikans.

About 2 decades ago, this movement transformed drastically its behaviour toward "Jews": they quest was no longer to convert them to Christianity, this because Zionism had imported a new role for them in the minds of the Evangelics.

This alleged Christian sect teaches namely that the "Jewish people" are prophesized to return to their "promised land" and doing so will facillitate the second coming of Christ.

As Zionists have been recognized as "The Jewish people" and the Zionist state as "The Jewish state" this meant that the prophecy has begun its fulfillment. Yes it means it only begun, because they only occupy a small part of what they say is promised, according to the Bible: What is promised to Abraham's decendands (meaning us, not Polish and German people that say to be Jewish but dont believe in any God) is the entire land as shown in this topic: From the Nile to the Eufrates.

So now the Evangelics have concluded that instead of converting these "Jews", they should be helped to expand their empire and fulfill the prophecy so that Christ may return and makes them Christian (or kills them).

Thus the Zionist ideology of conquering the "promised land" is not only of pseudo-Jewish identity, but of pseudo-Christian identity as well.

Put the Rev. here next to a Catholic, an Eastern Orthodox, an Anglican, a Lutheran, even a Southern Baptist, and the differences stand out like a sore thumb.

However we should not be to quick in labeling the others Christian either, the various Orthodox are the oldest kind still existing while we know Roman Catholicism was a great blow already . . . I'm not sure about the Anglican but if Lutherans follow Martin Luther then Christianity is not very near while Sothern Baptists . . . I'm not sure but aren't they all about the second coming as well?

In Islamic terms, these evangelists would be somewhat like the Qarmatis (Carmathians, the heretical sect that sacked Makkah and stole the black stone, and it was not returned for many years), or they might be like Hassan Sabbah's assassins.

I don't think we can compare them in this matter, whatever our opinions are on the mentioned sects I dont think they can be compared to the deviation of this cultu. I think if we speak in Islamic terms, we can better compare them with groups like Nation Of Islam, or the Nation of Gods & Earths: and interestingly enough Amerikan as well.

If generally looking back into history, the Crusaders would be the first coming to mind.

The point is, don't be fooled into thinking these are the mainstream Christians or the true Massihiyya, because they are obviously nothing more than an extremist, right wing splinter group that wants to exclude and attack everybody else.

Yes, I observe much hostility having developped amongst Muslims toward Christianity and this is mainly caused by political engagements by pseudo Christian nations such Amerika, Brittain and France throughout history.

If we should always look as close to us as possible, when we think of Christianity. We shouldnt be fooled by these heretic bible thumping lunatics that seek to steal our land to give it to socalled Jws, their fellow pretenders.

My conclusion is that one cannot be a Christian, if his ideology is based on oppressing of Christians and supporting alleged Jews that are atheist and worship flags to take their land away from them.

Remember, it is not only us Muslims that have suffered and suffer from these crazy bad-Hebrew speaking peoples.

Masalaam

Edited by Hashash
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What a bunch of ignorant posts. Please don't take it as an insult, it is not meant this way.

But I am an evangelical Christian, and I find your views very insulting. We are not a cult, we are not even a denomination. We are simply Christians who follow our sacred text, the Bible.

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What a bunch of ignorant posts.

Great that you have an opinion, is it based on anything else aside your personal submission to this cult and emotional response toward its critics?

But I am an evangelical Christian, and I find your views very insulting.

I find your religion insulting.

We are not a cult, we are not even a denomination. We are simply Christians who follow our sacred text, the Bible.

I do not agree and with me many Christians. You worship events (the second coming) you worship land (the promised land) you worship flags (the amerikan and israeli) and you (temporary) worship people (Jews).

I see no Christianity in any of that, and I cant take whatever it is that you call bible liturgically serious in any kind: it is a false copy of a false copy of a false copy of a false copy.

Aside of this, the lies and insults coming from the followers of this religion toward and about Islam confirms it all.

Tell me if your cult practices Christianity, then why does it promote the displacement and oppression of CHRISTIANS, communities that have existed from the time of Prophet Jesus Christ himself, for the favour of a bunch of aheist racists that you call Jews?

What kind of Christianity is that?

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I do not agree and with me many Christians. You worship events (the second coming) you worship land (the promised land) you worship flags (the amerikan and israeli) and you (temporary) worship people (Jews).

And you muslims don't yearn and pray for the coming Mahdi (spelling?), you don't yearn for the second coming where you guys beleive Jesus will kill all the Christians, and break the cross? You guys bow down to Mecca five times a day, yet somehow that isn't whorshipping land?

Take a long hard look in the mirror.

I see no Christianity in any of that, and I cant take whatever it is that you call bible liturgically serious in any kind: it is a false copy of a false copy of a false copy of a false copy.

Care to show us the original copy of the Koran?

Now exactly which one was it, the ones written on s[Edited Out]s of paper, the ones written on tablets, the one first put together by the first Caliph, of the one put together by Uthman, after he rewrote the koran and burned all the other copies???

Aside of this, the lies and insults coming from the followers of this religion toward and about Islam confirms it all.

Not being a trinity christian myself, more or less a evangelist, all I can observe is while muslims seem about as zealous in thier beliefs as do the bible thumpers, those thumping the Koran seem about 1000 times more deadly and threatening to mankind then the christian envangilists.

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And you muslims don't yearn and pray for the coming Mahdi (spelling?), you don't yearn for the second coming where you guys beleive Jesus will kill all the Christians, and break the cross? You guys bow down to Mecca five times a day, yet somehow that isn't whorshipping land?

Some of what our favorite US Marine has said it is not false. I do take exception to the comments about the Mahdi coming to kill all of the Christians and Hebrews and or Jesus coming to do that either. From my understanding of Islam that is not accurate. The part about praying towards Mecca as being land worship is also an incorrect interpretation of Islam. We pray towards Mecca, because Allah has stated the we must pray in that direction. Our Shia Chat Marine is definetly paying attention to some posts and has probably done some reading on his own and just needs a little correction by one of our more learned members.

Sempi Fi!

I may not be a patriot any longer, but I still have a soft spot for jar heads.

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I do take exception to the comments about the Mahdi coming to kill all of the Christians and Hebrews and or Jesus coming to do that either.

Myabe you should take a second look at your adopted religion.

Sahih Muslim

Book 041, Number 6981:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

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Sahih Muslim

Book 041, Number 6981:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

First I would need to know if that hadith is truly sahih and secondly I would need to know where in history that comment was made. If it was made in the middle of a battle with Jews, I could see where a comment would be made like that.

A Muslim is allowed to fight his oppressor until he asks for peace and stops oppressing the Muslims or he is destroyed. To interpret this hadith as saying a Muslim should kill all jews at any time is a misinterpretation.

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First I would need to know if that hadith is truly sahih and secondly I would need to know where in history that comment was made. If it was made in the middle of a battle with Jews, I could see where a comment would be made like that.

A Muslim is allowed to fight his oppressor until he asks for peace and stops oppressing the Muslims or he is destroyed. To interpret this hadith as saying a Muslim should kill all jews at any time is a misinterpretation.

Look it up yourself.

http://www.muslimhope.com/sahihmuslim.htm

Additionally this hadith is in regards to the "end days", not historical battles in the past.

In the end days, the Jiyza is to be lifted as all the infidels are to be slaughtered.

Of course if you read further these hadith also state that in the coming of the final days the "Romans" are to be the majority of the worlds population.

Since the Roman Empire has fallen centuries ago, I guess the Mahdi ain't coming, at least not according to muslim scripture.

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Look it up yourself.

http://www.muslimhope.com/sahihmuslim.htm

Additionally this hadith is in regards to the "end days", not historical battles in the past.

In the end days, the Jiyza is to be lifted as all the infidels are to be slaughtered.

Of course if you read further these hadith also state that in the coming of the final days the "Romans" are to be the majority of the worlds population.

Since the Roman Empire has fallen centuries ago, I guess the Mahdi ain't coming, at least not according to muslim scripture.

I went to this website and viewed the material it was presenting. I have seen some of these hadith in the past and I have brought them to the attention of my local "scholars" and they were able to show where the hadith I found were either fabricated, very weak, or not interpreted into Engish correctly. This site is not truly trying to support Islam, it appears that it was really trying to bring it down. You might want to get your information from a more trust worthy source. It is hard to get true information about a religion if your source is contaminated with falsehoods.

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I went to this website and viewed the material it was presenting. I have seen some of these hadith in the past and I have brought them to the attention of my local "scholars" and they were able to show where the hadith I found were either fabricated, very weak, or not interpreted into Engish correctly. This site is not truly trying to support Islam, it appears that it was really trying to bring it down. You might want to get your information from a more trust worthy source. It is hard to get true information about a religion if your source is contaminated with falsehoods.

Ah, the convenient Shia cop out to the tarnished version of Islam, "that hadith, Sura, whatever, is not translated properly, or isn't accepted by us, so it is not "True" Islam".

Funny thing though, that Hadith is recognized by probably 90% of Islam.

Try looking at these other sources, and can you tell me they are all anti-Islamic?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...im/041.smt.html

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/muslim/

http://www.road-to-heaven.com/hadith/sahih_muslim.htm

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/hadith/muslim/

Heres some more!

Book 041, Number 6981: Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

Book 041, Number 6982: Ubaidullah has reported this hadith with this chain of transmitters (and the Words are):" There is a Jew behind me." Book 041, Number 6983: Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

Book 041, Number 6984: Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

Book 041, Number 6985: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Edited by Semper Fidelis
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I see that you have spent many hours searching for ways to dispute Islam. Search you will, but don't count on success. I will travel to the websites you have mentioned, but I will with hold any further debate on the authenticity of the hadith until I have had time to research them myself and have discuss it with people more knowledgeable than myself. Maybe someone more learned than myself will be able to point out which hadith are accepted and how they are interpreted correctly. I can only vouch for what I know personally, which I admit is limited, but that is why in Islam we have scholars who do know what they are talking about. Enjoy your victory (if it could be called that) for now Marine, it shall be short lived. :P

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Is it not typical how the Mushrik that pretends to be Nassara turns this argument away from the question of CHRISTIANITY that is being discussed here into a of Islam?

Tell me Semper, why are you not discussing Christianity? Is it because you see in that mirror you've been talking no Christian? Are you affraid Jesus Christ returns and kills you instead of those you claim we expect to be killed?

I think so, as it becomes quite obvious in your remarks:

And you muslims don't yearn and pray for the coming Mahdi (spelling?)

The question is here, do Christians yarn and pray for the coming of Jesus Christ like you do?

Do Christians yarn and pray somuch, that they decide to assist a NAZI state conquering Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia filling it up with phony "Jews" as phony as y'all are Christians and doing so killing and displacing ancient Christian communities?

you don't yearn for the second coming where you guys beleive Jesus will kill all the Christians

Do you believe that spreading lies about Islam promotes upgrades your status of a Christian somehow? Such things are not tought in Islam, rather they are thought in your religion . . . tell me what will happen with each and every Jew on this planet when Jesus returns?

You guys bow down to Mecca five times a day, yet somehow that isn't whorshipping land?

I would see no reason whatsoever to assume that as any kind of land worship. To further brother Abdallah's point: if Allah would have wanted us to pray in any other direction, we would have done so for we serve none other than Him.

In addition, it is not as if your worship of land limits itself to religious purposes: it is not as if you only pray thinking of that land and having "Jews" on it, your religion actively propagates and assists in Zionist Imperialism.

Care to show us the original copy of the Koran?

I see little reason to discuss anything regarding originality, when your scriptures here in question are not even writting in their original language, or even a classical one for that matter.

Is your liturgy Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ? It is not even in Syriac, Greek or Latin for that matter, it is ENGLISH and one of bad semantics to add to it.

Not being a trinity christian myself, more or less a evangelist, all I can observe is while muslims seem about as zealous in thier beliefs as do the bible thumpers, those thumping the Koran seem about 1000 times more deadly and threatening to mankind then the christian envangilists.

Thumping? Why do you think that everybody is like you? That is your problem right there, you fail to recognize that everyone has their own way of perceiving things: that is how you got to this ridiculous pseudo-religion, and thats why you should get yourself a clue on biblical scriptures instead of listening to nutcases like JVI

It is absolute madness, it was a Catholic friend that told me what the "bible thumping" is that you people do and how insane it is: there is no lgocial coherency in any of those conclusions of yours, it is MADNESS.

Myabe you should take a second look at your adopted religion.

One does not adopt Islam, but reverts to it. Islam is the religion of the first man of this planet.

As for your Hadith quote, have you ever heard of something called a context?

That is exactly the problem with evangelism, it takes biblical writings completely out of all context and rants away throwing out verse after verse beyond the speed of sound concluding madness beyond all.

Look at this: THE MIDDLE EAST INVASION MAP ACCORDING TO THE "BIBLE"

eumapb.jpg

legend2.jpg

Look, it is the future according to the insane:

timeline.jpg

Edited by Hashash
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Is it not typical how the Mushrik that pretends to be Nassara turns this argument away from the question of CHRISTIANITY that is being discussed here into a of Islam?

Tell me Semper, why are you not discussing Christianity? Is it because you see in that mirror you've been talking no Christian? Are you affraid Jesus Christ returns and kills you instead of those you claim we expect to be killed?

No, I'm not afraid, because I don't believe is some vicious God of vengence who is coming back to kill most of his own creation, simply because he didn't give us enough evidence to believe in one version of him or another.

I'm a christian deist, I believe in a supreme being, and message of peace and love from Jesus, although I don't beleive Jesus is part of trinity. I also believe that the old testement and the koran are books of fire and brimstone, forcing the supertitious to submit to the will of the clerics who wrote them, they beleive in a vengefull God, which in my humble opinion, just isn't logical.

And you muslims don't yearn and pray for the coming Mahdi (spelling?)

The question is here, do Christians yarn and pray for the coming of Jesus Christ like you do?

I'm sure there are plenty of brainwashed bible thumping Chrisitans who are as devout as you muslims, I really can't see too much difference, other then at this point in time the muslims are much more deadly in their pursuit of foisting their religion.

Do Christians yarn and pray somuch, that they decide to assist a NAZI state conquering Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia filling it up with phony "Jews" as phony as y'all are Christians and doing so killing and displacing ancient Christian communities?

Excuse me, but last time I checked the hebes weren't even in any those countries, save palestine??

Do you believe that spreading lies about Islam promotes upgrades your status of a Christian somehow? Such things are not tought in Islam, rather they are thought in your religion . . . tell me what will happen with each and every Jew on this planet when Jesus returns?

Spreading lies? All one has to do is read your scripture, its right there in black and white.

I would see no reason whatsoever to assume that as any kind of land worship. To further brother Abdallah's point: if Allah would have wanted us to pray in any other direction, we would have done so for we serve none other than Him.

Actually when Mohammed first started Islam, he had his followers praying facing Palestine, it is only when he had his final falling out with the Jews (their not accepting him as a prophet) that he changed it to Mecca.

In addition, it is not as if your worship of land limits itself to religious purposes: it is not as if you only pray thinking of that land and having "Jews" on it, your religion actively propagates and assists in Zionist Imperialism.

I bet you beleive in the Boogeyman too.

Care to show us the original copy of the Koran?

I see little reason to discuss anything regarding originality, when your scriptures here in question are not even writting in their original language, or even a classical one for that matter.

So you agree, the koran is about as legit as the bible, in that it cannot be proven to be the "real" copy.

Not being a trinity christian myself, more or less a evangelist, all I can observe is while muslims seem about as zealous in thier beliefs as do the bible thumpers, those thumping the Koran seem about 1000 times more deadly and threatening to mankind then the christian envangilists.

Thumping? Why do you think that everybody is like you? That is your problem right there, you fail to recognize that everyone has their own way of perceiving things: that is how you got to this ridiculous pseudo-religion, and thats why you should get yourself a clue on biblical scriptures instead of listening to nutcases like JVI

Excuse me, but Christianity was around for about 900 years before the Koran, and since about 50% of the Koran seems to be "borrowed" from it, just what is legit, and what is not?

It is absolute madness, it was a Catholic friend that told me what the "bible thumping" is that you people do and how insane it is: there is no lgocial coherency in any of those conclusions of yours, it is MADNESS.

I have no idea what that last little diatribe meant?

Myabe you should take a second look at your adopted religion.

One does not adopt Islam, but reverts to it. Islam is the religion of the first man of this planet.

So I guess Uhg-Nug the caveman was a muslim, you guys are a hoot!

As for your Hadith quote, have you ever heard of something called a context?

That is exactly the problem with evangelism, it takes biblical writings completely out of all context and rants away throwing out verse after verse beyond the speed of sound concluding madness beyond all.

Excuse me, but the hadith I exampled is about the end days of earth, and really can't be taken out of context (because it hasn't happened yet) can it?

Look at this: THE MIDDLE EAST INVASION MAP ACCORDING TO THE "BIBLE"

Tell me, if God protects his word for mankind, then were is the original Injeel?

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No, I'm not afraid, because I don't believe is some vicious God of vengence who is coming back to kill most of his own creation, simply because he didn't give us enough evidence to believe in one version of him or another.

You claimed evangelical beliefs, what does evangelism teach to happen to Jews not willing to accept Jesus as their Lord & Saviour in the second coming?

I'm sure there are plenty of brainwashed bible thumping Chrisitans who are as devout as you muslims, I really can't see too much difference, other then at this point in time the muslims are much more deadly in their pursuit of foisting their religion.

Why are you not answering the question? Are you perhaps simply not understanding it, because somehow you translate Christianity into your limited perspective?

I am not talking about any "bible thumpers" I am talking about the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches have to say about evangelisms constant psychotic yarning to conquest land. Please answer that rather than turning the focus back to Muslims, are you not realizing that this topic speaks of "True Christians" ?

Aside of this, what grounds do you have to conclude that Muslims cause more mischief in their pursuit of religion than Amerikan imperialist evangelic zionists that destroy ancient societies and oppress people worldwide.

How are Muslims constantly yarning to displace people from their land, like evangelists do? Do the followers of the various Islamic schools also constantly try to take people into their particular path from the other paths?

If Evangelism is Christianity, than why does it not acknowledge Christians as Christians and tries to steel souls constantly from the poor and oppressed?

Why do Evangelist choose atheist Jews from Brooklyn over Christians from Bethlehem?

Excuse me, but last time I checked the hebes weren't even in any those countries, save palestine??

Actually the zionist state also occupies Syrian Golan, and has occupied Egypt and Lebanon before. Aside of that, the area included in all these nations is what "Jews" have been allegedly promised and what Evangelists support "Jews" in conquering.

Spreading lies? All one has to do is read your scripture, its right there in black and white.

How exactly are you qualified for interpreting our scripture? You can't even interpret your own.

Actually when Mohammed first started Islam, he had his followers praying facing Palestine, it is only when he had his final falling out with the Jews (their not accepting him as a prophet) that he changed it to Mecca.

Our Prophet did not start Islam, our Prophet brought Islam back. You would see the relation, you would have the slightest clue on Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures.

I bet you beleive in the Boogeyman too.

Please get a hold of yourself, are you not aware that such empty comments damages your credibility?

Are you denying that Evangelism aspires the occupation of the promised land by the socalled "Jewish" people that created the zionist state?

So you agree, the koran is about as legit as the bible, in that it cannot be proven to be the "real" copy.

I do not agree on anything with you, I have instead set aside the discussion of authenticity because in question were LINGUISTICS. The Qur'an is in Arabic, the bibles used by these pseudo-Christian sects is completely disconnected from classical liturgy.

Not being a trinity christian myself, more or less a evangelist, all I can observe is while muslims seem about as zealous in thier beliefs as do the bible thumpers, those thumping the Koran seem about 1000 times more deadly and threatening to mankind then the christian envangilists.

What worth do your observations have when they are not logical nor objective, and always based on very bad semantics?

Excuse me, but Christianity was around for about 900 years before the Koran, and since about 50% of the Koran seems to be "borrowed" from it, just what is legit, and what is not?

EVANGELISM most certainly was not, and no it is not "borrowed" for Christianity derrived from Islam. Isa al-Masih did not teach Christianity, he tought Islam and that is why he speaks of being a MUSLIM and serving Allah.

You of course would not know, since such terms are not found in the false copy of the false copy of the King James Version.

I have no idea what that last little diatribe meant?

Evangelist bible-thumpers rant incoherent sentences leading to illogical conclusions.

So I guess Uhg-Nug the caveman was a muslim, you guys are a hoot!

Uhg-Nuh? Do you not even believe in Adam? How are you calling yourself a Christian if you do not even believe in all of this?

Excuse me, but the hadith I exampled is about the end days of earth, and really can't be taken out of context (because it hasn't happened yet) can it?

If it would have no context it would have the ability to be expressed and for you to repeat it here. The problem is that you are clueless on what a context means.

Do you think that battles can only be historical and in the past? Do you not somehow think it might be the case that a context of battle may be as well a possibility in the past as much as in the futures, or will no longer battles be fought by then?

In the end days, the Jiyza is to be lifted as all the infidels are to be slaughtered.

More non-sense, there is no logical relation for such conclusions if you know what relations there are lawful between Muslims and other religions (in particular Christianity & Judaism).

Of course if you read further these hadith also state that in the coming of the final days the "Romans" are to be the majority of the worlds population.

And this is based on? Where does it say this? Instead of simply linking randomly sites, how about extracting the specific information and referring to it?

Ah, the convenient Shia cop out to the tarnished version of Islam, "that hadith, Sura, whatever, is not translated properly, or isn't accepted by us, so it is not "True" Islam".

How is a problem in translation a "Shia cop out"? Do you think only Shia object to incorrect translations or ignorant interpretations?

Try looking at these other sources, and can you tell me they are all anti-Islamic?

What point is there in them being anti-Islamic or not, if the problem begins with you taking matters out of context and ranting about it in here?

While you are at it, look up what happened to the Banu Quarthya Jews when Mohammed took Medina, perhaps you will see why the beheading of helpless prisoners isn't so un-islamic after all.

If you are referring to recent events, please don't assume that everybody agrees with your claim of innocence.

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Great that you have an opinion, is it based on anything else aside your personal submission to this cult and emotional response toward its critics?

My opinion is based on what I believe and on what I practice. You seem to have no idea about Evangelical Christians.

I do not agree and with me many Christians. You worship events (the second coming) you worship land (the promised land) you worship flags (the amerikan and israeli) and you (temporary) worship people (Jews).

No. We do not worship the second coming, the promised land (which was promised to the Hebrews, and most Christians are not Hebrews), flags, or people. I suggest you learn about our beliefs before critisizing. However, I have to thank you for this post because it provided an oportunity to show my congregation how errors can lead to misunderstandings.

I see no Christianity in any of that,

You are right, there is nothing Christian in worshipping what you listed. Which is why we don't worship these things.

and I cant take whatever it is that you call bible liturgically serious in any kind: it is a false copy of a false copy of a false copy of a false copy.

You are wrong again. My Authorized KJV 1611 Bible has 99.7% similarity to such ancient scriptures as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Hank:

My opinion is based on what I believe and on what I practice. You seem to have no idea about Evangelical Christians.

You are right to say that I am not very well educated on this particular cult for as far religious detail is concerned, the question is in howfar such would be necesarry to conclude the objections I have.

Nonetheless my point in regard to your opinion was that other than showing argumentative objection to my points, it appears to be fully dependant on the fact that it concerns you personally and empotionally.

No. We do not worship the second coming, the promised land (which was promised to the Hebrews, and most Christians are not Hebrews), flags, or people.

Perhaps you simply assume very different premises to conclude worship than I do. As I see it, putting your flag above Gods will and manipulating Gods will for the benefit of what is represented by your flag: is flag-worship.

Why would you assume that somehow it needs to be promised to Christians, in order to worship that land? At first the same as previous occurs here, you put the place of that land above what God teaches you even in your own Bible.

Moreover you do worship people, as you worship the alleged Jews to whom that land is supposedly promised. You worship them in the sense that you put the value of their lives and inhabitation of that land above the value of a God-fearing Christian, that has ancestry to that place since the time of Jesus Christ.

If I am so ignorant on your beliefs and totally wrong then why dont you answer me how it is possible for Christians being ethnically cleansed for the benefit of an atheist people that claim to be Jewish?

How can anyhing that is Christian, possibly tolerate such oppression of Christians for the favour of non-Christians?

I am sure that you are not denying that these "Jewish" people are indeed to be inhabited in that land, regardless of whoever lives there . . . no?

I suggest you learn about our beliefs before critisizing. However, I have to thank you for this post because it provided an oportunity to show my congregation how errors can lead to misunderstandings.

I suggest you to adress my points so that your argument of my lack of knowledge begets any relevance and credibility. You have shown little in regard to the errors thusfar, you have only offered alternative statements. I am sure that you know very well the difference between a statement and an argument justifying the statement. I have seen no arguments thusfar, while I have given you plenty.

This reminds me of another point, how is something to be considered Christian when it doesn't acknowledges all other (ancient) forms of Christianity and seeks to steel followers from each sect?

Is that not what happens in for example Orthodox nations in Eastern-Europe, or even amongst the Catholics in Latin America?

Is it not so then that this religion believes that the only ones to actually be Christian, are they: a miniscule cult of a few million stuck in Amerika?

If you do not share Christianity with your fellow Christians, why do you call yourself Christian? Are there no other words to use to denote your religion which would not somehow imply that you belong to all other Christian religions?

The reality is that it is nothing but trickery, so that the world may think you are representatives of the Christian voice like the world thinks that G Bush is actually a Christian: it is to seal the true identity of a satanic cult that seeks world-conquest.

You are right, there is nothing Christian in worshipping what you listed. Which is why we don't worship these things.

Great argument, opposing the statement by a denial thereof.

You are wrong again. My Authorized KJV 1611 Bible has 99.7% similarity to such ancient scriptures as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

If your bible would be similar to ancient writings, it would make it 5 times as thick as it is now. Are you certain that you have sufficient knowledge of linguistics and in particular the linguistics relevant for these scriptures? Do you have any clue on the relationship between Aramaic and contemporary English, or even Greek and Latin to this English for that matter?

I am sorry, your bible not only is incomparable to anything ancient, it also shows its sheer emptyness in the manner it adresses fro example Islam. Tell me, what do Evangelists say of Islam? Do they say it is the heritage of Abraham, or do they say its some crazy desert Arab religion that worship a stone and kiss land 5 times a day?

Let me take an example to Yusuf Estes, who was a former "Christian" minister and tells us:

To be honest, I was a "dedicated Christian" and a good 'ole boy from Texas. We hated anything and everything about those "Mozlems", just like you are supposed to, here in the West.

We had been told:

"They don't believe in God;

They worship a black box in the desert and;

They kiss the ground 5 times a day."

Mozlems?? = Terrorists! Hijackers! Kidnappers! Pagans!

If you are an American Christian - you have to hate them! - All of them! -- So I did!

Priests & Preachers coming to Islam

Do the followers of your religion say about Islam that Allah is the same as the ELLAH Jesus Christ believed in, or do they say that Muslims believe in some pagan MOONGOD?

True Christians, have a religion strong enough not to need these pathetic lies to be spread about Islam.

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You are right to say that I am not very well educated on this particular cult for as far religious detail is concerned, the question is in howfar such would be necesarry to conclude the objections I have.

Nonetheless my point in regard to your opinion was that other than showing argumentative objection to my points, it appears to be fully dependant on the fact that it concerns you personally and empotionally.

Why do think I am a member of a cult? I simply live my life by the Bible.

Perhaps you simply assume very different premises to conclude worship than I do. As I see it, putting your flag above Gods will and manipulating Gods will for the benefit of what is represented by your flag: is flag-worship.

Why would you assume that somehow it needs to be promised to Christians, in order to worship that land? At first the same as previous occurs here, you put the place of that land above what God teaches you even in your own Bible.

Moreover you do worship people, as you worship the alleged Jews to whom that land is supposedly promised. You worship them in the sense that you put the value of their lives and inhabitation of that land above the value of a God-fearing Christian, that has ancestry to that place since the time of Jesus Christ.

We follow the Bible, and none of what you mention is in the Bible, hence we do not do these things. Our Bible is our foremost authority, not a flag, a piece of land, or a group of people. That's what Bible-believing evangelical Christians believe.

If I am so ignorant on your beliefs and totally wrong then why dont you answer me how it is possible for Christians being ethnically cleansed for the benefit of an atheist people that claim to be Jewish?

Our Bible does not teach ethnic cleansing, so I don't know where you are getting all these ideas from.

I am sure that you are not denying that these "Jewish" people are indeed to be inhabited in that land, regardless of whoever lives there . . . no?

I support Hebrews (not necessarily Jews) in Israel because I believe it is the right thing to do. There is no religious persecution in Israel. I been there several times, and the Christian communities where I stayed were growing and flourishing. Moreover, there were people of different ethnicities living there. Most of them were Arab Christians, but there were some Hebrews, and a large number of Russians.

I suggest you to adress my points so that your argument of my lack of knowledge begets any relevance and credibility. You have shown little in regard to the errors thusfar, you have only offered alternative statements. I am sure that you know very well the difference between a statement and an argument justifying the statement. I have seen no arguments thusfar, while I have given you plenty.

I am answering you, not arguing. As I said before, evangelical Christians follow the Bible. We do not accept any unBiblical authority. The text of the Holy Bible is widely available. I suggest that you read it, and if you can show me where I have proposed anything unBiblical, I will be happy to concede.

This reminds me of another point, how is something to be considered Christian when it doesn't acknowledges all other (ancient) forms of Christianity and seeks to steel followers from each sect?

We are not concerned with the number of followers, so steal is not the correct word to use. We only want these people to follow the Holy Bible because this is the only way to be saved. I am a Southern Baptist, but I would not minister, or as you put it, "seek to steal followers" from an Independent Baptist church, or from Calvinist Methodists even though my church has no affiliation with them whatsoever. The fact is they follow the Bible, and thus they are saved and will go to Heaven.

My point being, that we only minister to those false Christians, who call themselves Christians, but in fact are not because they don't follow the Bible. We minister to them because we care about them, and we want them to go to Heaven instead of Hell.

Is that not what happens in for example Orthodox nations in Eastern-Europe, or even amongst the Catholics in Latin America?

Is it not so then that this religion believes that the only ones to actually be Christian, are they: a miniscule cult of a few million stuck in Amerika?

If you do not share Christianity with your fellow Christians, why do you call yourself Christian? Are there no other words to use to denote your religion which would not somehow imply that you belong to all other Christian religions?

The reality is that it is nothing but trickery, so that the world may think you are representatives of the Christian voice like the world thinks that G Bush is actually a Christian: it is to seal the true identity of a satanic cult that seeks world-conquest.

You are making an incorrect assumptions that we want these people to join our denominations or our churches. We do not. We only want for them to read the Holy Bible, and to follow it. There is no trickery. There is no desire for conquest. We just want these people to read the Bible for themselves, and to be saved from their sins.

You are wrong again. My Authorized KJV 1611 Bible has 99.7% similarity to such ancient scriptures as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

If your bible would be similar to ancient writings, it would make it 5 times as thick as it is now. Are you certain that you have sufficient knowledge of linguistics and in particular the linguistics relevant for these scriptures? Do you have any clue on the relationship between Aramaic and contemporary English, or even Greek and Latin to this English for that matter?

I am sorry, your bible not only is incomparable to anything ancient, it also shows its sheer emptyness in the manner it adresses fro example Islam. Tell me, what do Evangelists say of Islam? Do they say it is the heritage of Abraham, or do they say its some crazy desert Arab religion that worship a stone and kiss land 5 times a day?

You are incorrect. Our Bible is the original Bible. KJV 1611 is the Bible in English. Please visit the following web site: http://www.chick.com/information/bibleversions/. There you will find elaborate explanation of what our Bible is, and how it came to be.

Let me take an example to Yusuf Estes, who was a former "Christian" minister and tells us:

To be honest, I was a "dedicated Christian" and a good 'ole boy from Texas. We hated anything and everything about those "Mozlems", just like you are supposed to, here in the West.

We had been told:

"They don't believe in God;

They worship a black box in the desert and;

They kiss the ground 5 times a day."

Mozlems?? = Terrorists! Hijackers! Kidnappers! Pagans!

If you are an American Christian - you have to hate them! - All of them! -- So I did!

This is an apaling poem, and there is nothing Christian about it. This man misrepresents what Christianity really is. A real dedicated Christian lives his life by the Holy Bible. Can you show me where such attitudes are found in the Bible? If you can, I will concede, but otherwise, I have to inform you that you are wrong.

Do the followers of your religion say about Islam that Allah is the same as the ELLAH Jesus Christ believed in, or do they say that Muslims believe in some pagan MOONGOD?

True Christians, have a religion strong enough not to need these pathetic lies to be spread about Islam

Our religion is based on the Bible. Bible does not say anything about Islam. Whatever some followers of Christ might believe about Islam does not come from the Bible. It is their personal opinion, and such it is not perfect. It may be correct, or it may not be. But only Jesus is perfect, and only He knows the Truth. We can only read His truth in our Bibles, and follow it in our personal lives the best we can, accepting that we need Jesus in our lives, and we are worthless without Him. I prayed to Jesus to lead me to an answer regarding the Moon god theory. I have not received such answer, and I have not had the time to research the subject myself. Regardless, this theory is not Christian, but academic, and should not be tied to Christianity.

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Why do think I am a member of a cult?  I simply live my life by the Bible.

Your bible is provided and interpreted by your cult. It is not in any sense linguistically authentic, nor are the implications derived biblical in any sense.

We follow the Bible, and none of what you mention is in the Bible, hence we do not do these things. Our Bible is our foremost authority, not a flag, a piece of land, or a group of people. That's what Bible-believing evangelical Christians believe.

You can state a million times that the bible is your authority, it does not refute the fact that your cult sets superior value upon nationalism in terms of your own nation, in terms of the promised land as well as in terms of the people you want to have on that land than Christian ethics regarding fellow man in general and fellow Christians in particular.

Our Bible does not teach ethnic cleansing, so I don't know where you are getting all these ideas from.

Your cult teaches the support of those who ethnic cleanse for the same purposes as you: settling land in replacement of natives. Moreover, your cult supports Amerikan imperialism in general which has ammounted to ethnic cleansing many times historically.

I support Hebrews (not necessarily Jews) in Israel because I believe it is the right thing to do.

Your support for the people in question is as you would say "unbiblical".

As you refuse to call them Jews, I assume that by this you mean that their religious affiliation is irrelevant? That would be a point for you, as if it would be relevant indeed than the majority of these people which is ATHEIST would become a problem in your support.

However, if their relationship with God is irrelevant, then how have these people in any sense become of biblical relevance, in comparison to any other mentioned tribes in the bible?

Aside of that , I assume that you mean to say Israelites for as you know Ismaelites are the decendands of Eber as well. Surely you then must refer to a Hebrew culture, and on both grounds ZIONISTS do not qualify.

1) The Ashkenazi among the Zionists are decendands of Poles, Germans and other Central-European peoples and not Israelites.

2) Israeli Hebrew culture and language is a western European combination of revival and fabrication amongst previous mentioned people.

If you want to support Hebrew-Israelites, then why did and do you not support:

1) The decendands of the Israelites that have remained in these lands and maintained their original culture and religion from the times of Babylonian captivity for example?

Why then do you instead of supporting Israelites, you support ATHEIST GERMANS rooting out original ancient sraelite JEWISH communities allover the Arab world transforming them into atheists with a bad accent?

2) With the coming of Christianity and revival of Islam many Israelites converted subsequently, and are amongst the ancestors of the Palestinian and greater Arab Christians and Muslims.

Why then do you instead of supporting Israelites, you support the ethnic cleansing of their decendands comitted by the Zionist non-Jewish non-Israelite non-Hebrew state.

There is no religious persecution in Israel.

There is no religious persecution in many surrounding nations nor has there been much historically especially in compare to the heritage of those calling themselves today "Israel".

What there is in Israel is APARTHEID and on top of this Israel itself is an actively expansionist militarist state armed with nukes occupying more and more land everyday, which is something you support as the promised land is from the Nile to the Eufrates is it not?

Allow me to quote a Christian Jerusalemite from the documentary A Prison Called Palestine and see what he thinks of this great free democracy of yours when he stuck on apartheids-checkpoints obstructing him from attending his work:

Christian: This is our land. We are trying to live our life and they are trying to prevent us to lead our natural life . . . whatever is left of it. Ofcourse I am mad, everybody is mad. Who shouldnty be mad whenm you see what you see.

Reporter: Can you talk a little bit about security.

Christian: What security?

Reporter: The security the Israeli fence is going up between the West Bank and Jerusalem?

Christian: Its not gonna give them any inch of security, any ounce of security. There wont be any security, security is a state of mind. You have peace with your neighbours, you have security imagine everybody in the world putting up the China wall. There is no security with walls there is security with dialogue and with respect. They don't have respect for others: if you're not Jewish you're not worth anything. See it in the United States: anybody who sneezes is an anti-semite. No security without respect and they dont have respect: They took our land we didnt take their land.

Record this: They took our land prior to 1948 we did not take anybodys land.

Here, why dont you look at the site of our ancestors one over here, and one just around this corner: see the archeological tombs around here they are not Jewish tombs. If they were Jewish tombs then there would be an Israeli soldier sitting to protect them.

This is the land of our ancestors since thousands of years. They were bedouins who came, created somekind of bedouin kingdom for a while and then left, but we were always here: thats the history.

Reporter: We talked to an Israeli yesteday who said that its a matter of how far back you go, that if you go back 3.000 years that the land is promised to them by God

Christian: Of course I'M A CHRISTIAN, God promised me this land He said: The hell with the Jews the hell with Judaism, this is the new testament this is the new are. Who are they trying to fool, I am a Christian: I know their history and I read the bible, alot of it is fake. Why did Christ come, why do you think Christ came to keep the same orde? Its a new order: It was promised to us, not to them. Those who believe in God, this is their land: they dont believe in God, those who kill others don't believe in God . . . don't at all believe in God.

I'm not making a speech, I'm just mad and want to go to my work.

That was a Christian, which is something you and your cult are not.

I been there several times, and the Christian communities where I stayed were growing and flourishing.

Previous mentioned Christian clearly disagreed, and so do the rest of the Arab Christians that suffer from the Zionist state, and why?

For example:

Israeli government denied visas to Christian clergies

christian%20leaders.jpg

Christian organizations in the Holy Land say ties with Israeli government are the worst ever. A group of 50 Christian leaders sent a letter to US President George W. Bush asking him to help solve "crisis" that left some institutions without sufficient staff.

"Relations of the churches and these institutions with the Israeli government may be the worst they have ever been," said the letter, sent to Bush last week and signed by Protestant, Catholic and evangelical leaders.

"Those of us with religious institutions in Israel and the occupied territories are no longer able to function normally."

Some groups said they felt Israel was singling out Christians — particularly Arabs

"There is a lot of delay, and it is denied to some people like those who come from Arab countries," said Father William Shomali, treasurer for the Latin Patriarchate.

Shomali said some Christians perceived there was an effort by the Israeli right wing to "Judaise" Jerusalem, also holy to Christians and Muslims.

Nancy Dinsmore, who has worked for the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem for five years, said she was informed last week that her visa would not be renewed. She said she believed Israel was cracking down on Christians for political reasons, targeting those thought to be sympathetic to the Palestinians.

"I think we are pretty loud and outspoken. A lot of our ministries are service related. In doing this we draw attention to the appalling circumstances in which the community lives."

Yes, even your cultist departments in Jerusalem have quite some problems with Zionist supremacism imposed by "Jews" . . . yet communities flourish according to you?

Let us see, what other reasons may Christians have not to "flourish" under occupation of the Zionist state:

"While evangelical leaders who warned President Bush not to be 'even-handed' in peace negotiations believe they are speeding up the Second Coming of Christ, it was Christ who said, 'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God ..'"

By Sherri Muzher,

For Palestine Chronicle

"You mean, there are Palestinian Christians?” I am often asked, incredulously and with a renewed sense of interest in the Middle East.

I understand the confusion. All Arabs are Muslims and all Muslims are Arabs – isn’t that the popular belief? So it’s not surprising that many view the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict as Muslims versus Jews.

Unfortunately, there are those who strategically exploit this lack of knowledge for political gain or to realize “prophecy,” like Christian Conservative Gary Bauer who organized a letter of warning President Bush.

Twenty-two evangelical leaders stated in the May 19 letter that any attempt to be “evenhanded” between Israel and the Palestinians would be “morally reprehensible.” A few weeks ago, the Rev. Pat Robertson accused President Bush of imperiling Israel with Road Map, citing the Bible “which speaks very harshly of those who divide the ‘Promised Land.’”

How many potential Americans believe this? “There are 70 million of us” the Reverend Jerry Falwell explained to CBS’s Bob Simon on June 8, 2003 in a segment called ‘Zion’s Christian Soldiers.’ ”If there’s one thing that brings us together quickly, it’s whenever we begin to detect our government becoming a little anti-Israel.”

Falwell certainly proved his allegiance to Israel when he promised Israel’s Benjamin Netanyahu in 1998 that he and others would mobilize evangelical churches to oppose steps involving territorial concessions to the Palestinians. Palestinian evangelical pastors and theologians later responded to Falwell in a February1, 1998 letter, “Our task of sharing the love of Christ in this region is becoming increasingly difficult as our brothers and sisters in the West openly express sentiments and endorse policies that produce greater injustice and aggression against Palestinian Christians and Muslims.

The fact that Palestinian Christians are united with Muslims in the goal for liberation proves that the conflict isn’t so much religious as it is nationalistic and human. Palestinian Christians have been among the most fervent players in the battle against Israeli occupation. Consider spokeswoman, Hanan Ashrawi; the award-winning literary critic, Edward Said; Jerusalem Latin Patriarchate Michel Sabbah; Melkite Reverend/Author Elias Chacour; as well as revolutionary, George Habash.

I wonder where all these flourishing and Zionist loving Christians that you imagine get their inspiration from, perhaps from the policy of church-land seizure in Palestine?

A new policy was created by the Israeli government. This time is a policy of confiscation of church land. The Israeli army plans to cut in two 36-acre Baron Der Site, a place of refugee and worship for the Patriarchate since the 1600s. Israeli officials plan to seize the property and build a road and security fence through the middle of the land, cutting it into two useless parcels. The Patriarch tried to stop it but he couldn’t.

According to army officials the seizure is irreversible and the construction of the road will begin in the near future. Seizing the land will cause a financial burden for the Patriarchate, which receives some income through the sale of olives and olive oil from the property’s 1,600 ancient olive trees.

Why are they crying out if they are so flourishing?

Urgent appeal from the Patriarchs and Heads of Churches in Jerusalem

To President George Bush

Tuesday, April 02, 2002 Mr President,

We appeal to you to stop immediately the inhuman tragedy that is taking place in this Holy Land in our Palestinian towns and villages. Only this morning the Israeli tanks have reached the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, the City of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is wanton indiscriminate killings. Very many people are deprived of water, electricity, food supplies and basic medical needs. Many of our religious institutions have been invaded and damaged.

We call upon your Christian Conscience- because we know you are the only one who can stop this tragedy immediately.

We in return will play our part in mediating for the peace and security of all the people of this Land, both Israeli and Palestinian.

Signed

The Patriarchs, Archbishops and Heads of all the Christian Churches in Jerusalem

Urgent appeal from the Patriarchs and Heads of Churches in Jerusalem

Tuesday, April 02, 2002

We the Heads of Churches in Jerusalem are horrified and distressed by the suffering of so many peoples of this Land and the destruction of buildings and structures. More than this, the death and injury of so many innocent people cry out to the world i shame.The invasion of so many West Bank towns, villages and refugee camps has brought extensive looting together with the deprivation of basic food and medical supplies.

We appeal to all major world political leaders (especially in the USA, the UK and the European Community), to all world religious leaders (especially His Holiness the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church in the USA together with the Lutheran World Federation and the Orthodox Patriarchs all over the World) together with all men and women of faith and good will- in God’s name come to the rescue of all our peoples.We are ready to serve as mediators between both sides but we need your help.

Fr. Raed Abusahlia

Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem

P.O.Box 14152 - Jerusalem 97500

E-mail address: latinpat@actcom.co.il

Personal e-mail: nonviolence@writeme.com

Patriarchate's Homepage: http://www.lpj.org

You should be ashame of yourself, do you even know how many Christians lived in Palestine before Zionists came and drove them out of their homes since '47 untill this very day?

You have no clue and you are no Christian.

A Message from Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Salaam and grace in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ and blessed greetings to you from Jerusalem.

We in the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem are desperately concerned as the situation in the Land of the Holy One continues to deteriorate almost by the hour, bringing with it tragic loss of life, innumerable injustices and the damage and destruction of infrastructure, hospitals, schools and the homes of innocent people, among them our own people. We call upon all our partners and friends to do all that is in their power, to bringing an end to this pain and suffering in our homeland. The recent hostilities as well as the reoccupation of liberated Palestinian towns and villages has proved catastrophic and tragic for both parties. No one with common sense believes that a whole nation can be controlled with the power of the gun. Justice is the only possible way. The root cause of all of this is the occupation and the Israeli occupation must come to an end.

At present we are faced with a total disregard for the suffering of so many of our people. The recent incursion of tanks and military personnel into many of the Palestinian towns and cities has caused an enormous amount of suffering. In Bethlehem, 3000 people recently gathered in Manger Square from neighboring refugee camps. Local organizations were being asked to help feed them. A Lutheran school was occupied and missiles hit Bethlehem University, which is a Roman Catholic institution, causing its closure. All electrical power was cut to two Ramallah hospitals during the height of fighting, leading many to great harm from lack of emergency health care. I have just returned from visiting Ramallah, shortly after the Israeli tanks pulled out of the city center. One of my priests, The Rev. George Al-Kopti, who is in charge of the parish of St. Andrew¹s in Ramallah, reported to me about the situation in the city in the aftermath of the Israeli incursion. He said: ³About 150 tanks entered the city, occupying every corner and preventing movement, even movement of the injured to the hospitals and clinics in town. They occupied houses and apartment buildings, asking families to congregate in one house with no regard to their age or their health. Cars that belong to families of the parish were destroyed by tanks.² He adds: ³The children of the Evangelical Home lived for a few days of fear and trauma. We had three days of severe imprisonment, without the ability to move or even provide ourselves with food.

It was chilling to see the apartments that the occupying soldiers had marked with a large spray painted X, reminiscent of the markings the Nazi forces used to identify Jewish families. One of the apartment buildings that was taken over included the flat of Mrs. Patricia Rantisi, the widow of the late Rev. Audeh Rantisi.

She is a 70-year-old British citizen. Kent Wilkens, a Canadian friend staying with Mrs. Rantisi reports on the situation after the invasion of the building by soldiers. He says: ³We have adequate food supplies. The Ramallah water has been cut so we will run out of water in this flat in a day or so. We still have electricity. We are not allowed to set foot in the hall. We are 13 adults, including two elderly, and 10 children from 18 months old to 10 years. Two of the adults are physicians who work at Augusta Victoria Hospital in Jerusalem. They are denied the ability to reach their hospitals, and cannot telephone their patients, or have their patients telephone them.² He concludes, ³The soldiers have no need to hold 4 families as hostages to accomplish their so called security.

The ongoing conflict has had a dramatic effect on the work of the Church in the Land of the Holy One. Every one of our institutions and parishes has felt the crushing economic repercussions of the situation. When the new century began we looked towards an increase in our joy. Unfortunately this has not been the case and we watch as the quality of the lives of our friends and colleagues spirals downward into increasingly more difficult circumstances.

Our ministry would not be possible without the support and prayers of our countless friends throughout the world. Knowing that you stand with us makes an immense difference in our lives and our ministries. We are greatly encouraged by the number of people who have written us, to express their solidarity and offer their players. Let us all come together, and join hands and efforts. I challenge you to speak out on behalf of the people of this Land; to your families, your friends, your coworkers and neighbors, your politicians and your government leaders. We pray for peace with justice, justice with truth and truth with righteousness, as well as for the safety and protection of all people. Peace is the only alternative left. This can only be a peace established in truth and justice, in accordance with the United Nations resolutions 242, 338 and 194. The best security comes from reconciled neighbors.

Know that this comes with our prayers and our gratitude for all you have been doing to help us stand firm in our commitment to His calling. May you be richly blessed.

In Christ,

+ The Rt. Rev. Riah Abu El-As

Yes, life is wonderful for Christians under Zionist occupation.

a large number of Russians

You mean to say Armenians, here is a message from them to Israel as well:

APPEAL to the Government of Israel through its Foreign Ministry and Embassy from the Council of Oriental Orthodox Churches of Great Britain.

As leaders of our respective Coptic, Syrian, Ethiopian, Indian, Eritrean and Armenian Christian communities in Great Britain, we have been following with serious concern the disturbing news that the Israeli authorities have seized lands belonging to the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate in the Holy Land. As sister Churches, as much as members of the Oriental Orthodox Council of Great Britain, we are disturbed that the trusts of the Armenian Patriarchate are being threatened by this seizure last week.

We pray fervently that this illegal and injudicious episode will be resolved equitably so that the lands in question in Bethlehem will be returned promptly to the Armenian Church as their legal, rightful and historical owners. As such, the invocation of the biblical Prophets to pursue justice and herald peace will be realised once again.

We also stand in solidarity with all our brothers in Christ in the Holy Land as we share today their daily concerns. The Oriental Orthodox Churches have enjoyed a time-long presence in the Holy Land and have fulfilled their witness since the early ages. We therefore pray with the Armenian Orthodox Church as well as all our communities in the lands of the Nativity and Resurrection of our Lord and Saviour so that 'peace will finally dawn on this land of peace' and that their trials and tribulations will cease so that hope regains their hearts and revisits their minds once more.

METROPOLITAN SERAPHIM

British Orthodox Church within the

Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria

BISHOP ANGAELOS

Coptic Orthodox Church

BISHOP NATHAN

Armenian Orthodox Church

You don't know what you're talking about Hank.

I am answering you, not arguing.

If arguing means offering argument backing up your "answer" and you refuse to offer this, then your answers are empty and void.

If you can show me where I have proposed anything unBiblical, I will be happy to concede.

That is great, for in this post contains many points have been made taking biblical incorrectness on your part as a basis so you can adress them if you wish to "argue" them.

We are not concerned with the number of followers, so steal is not the correct word to use. We only want these people to follow the Holy Bible because this is the only way to be saved.

The concern is for them to follow your bible as you see it, encouring them to do so is about number of followers whether you give directly value to this number or through the salvation you believe in.

I am a Southern Baptist, but I would not minister, or as you put it, "seek to steal followers" from an Independent Baptist church, or from Calvinist Methodists even though my church has no affiliation with them whatsoever. The fact is they follow the Bible, and thus they are saved and will go to Heaven.

My point being, that we only minister to those false Christians, who call themselves Christians, but in fact are not because they don't follow the Bible. We minister to them because we care about them, and we want them to go to Heaven instead of Hell.

You only emhasize the minimal identity of your cult and cults related to yours, for why are Orthodox and Catholics the most ancient followings of Christianity left today not included? Simply because you not think that they are Christian, because you believe that your religion is completely different from theirs?

You are totally right, so why do you need to steal a conventional name that they use and have used for times? To cause confusion, to trick people into believe y'all nutcases are Christians?

Why do you call yourself Christian? Because of Jesus perhaps? Do you not know that Christ is a Greek name?

Why do you want to make those associations, if they conflict with how you perceive the religion of Jesus?

At least if you call yourself Christian, add to it that all those historically known as Christians are not Christian by your definition, and not brothers in your religion.

You are making an incorrect assumptions that we want these people to join our denominations or our churches. We do not. We only want for them to read the Holy Bible, and to follow it. There is no trickery. There is no desire for conquest. We just want these people to read the Bible for themselves, and to be saved from their sins.

Do you not understand that this ideology that you promote is YOUR ideology? Are Churches and denominations not consequential to the religion they are made to adopt? Do the acts they engage in due to following YOUR religion not contribute to the well-being of your ideology, which considering the whole promised land/hebrew tale has WORLDY implications?

You are incorrect. Our Bible is the original Bible. KJV 1611 is the Bible in English. Please visit the following web site:

http://www.chick.com/information/bibleversions/. There you will find elaborate explanation of what our Bible is, and how it came to be.

Giving me some website does not quite give your linguistic understanding any credibility. I ask you again, are you aware of the difference between languages and their semantic structures? Your bible is a translation of a translation of a translation, how is it in any sense accurate to any ancient scriptures?

This is an apaling poem, and there is nothing Christian about it. This man misrepresents what Christianity really is. A real dedicated Christian lives his life by the Holy Bible. Can you show me where such attitudes are found in the Bible? If you can, I will concede, but otherwise, I have to inform you that you are wrong.

This man certainly misrepresented what Christianity is, but he is from YOUR religion. Are you denying that your religion teaches these things about Islam?

You are aware that this person was once a minister? What do I care what there is in the bible if it is not being followed to begin with?

Our religion is based on the Bible. Bible does not say anything about Islam. Whatever some followers of Christ might believe about Islam does not come from the Bible. It is their personal opinion, and such it is not perfect. It may be correct, or it may not be.

You are correct that mentioned beliefs do not come from the Bible, so you concede that the followers of your religion have un-biblical or at least non-biblical ideas that they promote as an alleged Christian? Do you deny that this is what the overwhelming majority of those following your religion believe?

Moreover, where did you get the idea that anything regarding Islam is not mentioned in the bible?

This is the problem that you get due to your linguistic and liturgic handicap, do you not understand that Islam is the root Seen Laam Meem which exists as much in Hebrew as it exists in Aramaic and is used constantly throughout the Bible?

Prophet Isa himself used the word MUSLIM:

hebrew2.gif

Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo.

Luke 6:40: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher"

Do you not understand that Jesus Christ believed in Ellah? It is all there in the scriptures if you would care to see.

I prayed to Jesus to lead me to an answer regarding the Moon god theory. I have not received such answer, and I have not had the time to research the subject myself.

You mean to say that voices in your head are there to validate your beliefs? How about studying Aramaic and Hebrew and coming to the conclusion that the semitic langagues Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew all express the same word from the same root which is the one and only God Allah?

Regardless, this theory is not Christian, but academic, and should not be tied to Christianity.

You are right it is not Christian, and you are right it should be tied to Christianity: and neither should those that propagate this theory as a Christian.

Edited by Hashash
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Oh and mr. Pastor, there seem to be some fishy things going on with your Bibles:

Worshiping the God State: A critic of Why Judeo‑Christians Support War, Speaks Out:

With the help of Scofield, a convicted forger, Oxford Press invents a new, limited edition class of ruptured Christians related to the "rapture' which is not even mentioned in Matthew! Christian Zionists have largely accepted this context, changing Jesus' salvation message to one of punishment for anyone who does not treat the State of Israel as a specially favored people. Oxford decreed that Jesus meant only Jews and only the State of Israel when he preached of love for "brethren," 1,976 years before there was a State of Israel! Anyone who believes this should read what Jesus said about the Pharisees in the previous Chapter 24, of St. Matthew, where he calls them vipers and sons of Satan.

Mr. Lopez, one of our readers told us that that many years before he was advised by a pastor to burn his Scofield Reference Bible. He did so, and told us that only now does he know why. You might also burn all the clones such as McArthur, Thompson’s, and all the “left behind” books on your shelves. Jesus' followers would not have know what he was talking about if he preached this confusing Zionist dribble in 34 AD, unless, of course, Scofield was there to explain it to them.

Mr. Lopez, you have our sincere thanks for writing. In your many citations of scripture, even if only this one from Matthew 25 was in the New Testament. It may be the most fraudulent Zionist dribble yet, whose dialectic technique are now a familiar pattern. Our critics usually quote almost every verse in Genesis about the Abrahamic covenant, but they rarely quote anything from the New Testament. Scofield followers tend to live in the Old Hebrew Testament because Jesus' words raise embarrassing questions. You did us a favor by focusing us upon this blasphemous bit of new testament text.

Worshiping the God State

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Regardless, this theory is not Christian, but academic, and should not be tied to Christianity.

It is slander invented by Dr. Robert Morey, a Christian missionary. It has nothing to do with academics.

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lol...another chick fan...i suppose comic strips can be quite scholarly for certain types of people. must be the pictures...

I prayed to Jesus to lead me to an answer regarding the Moon god theory. I have not received such answer, and I have not had the time to research the subject myself. Regardless, this theory is not Christian, but academic, and should not be tied to Christianity.

the proponent of the moon god theory, robert morey, and his missionary tactics are well known.

Robert Morey’s Moon-god Myth & Other Deceptive Attacks

Edited by naaz_aneen
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