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zainabia

Did Umar Ibn Khattab initiated Adhan?

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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Haq Nawaz Jhangvi of Sapah Sahab was saying in one of his speeches why Shia give Adhan when this was introduced by Umar Ibn Khattab.

I don't think it is universally accepted even among Sunnies.

Let's look at the following 2 traditions from Sunnan Abu Dawud.

Book 2, Number 0512:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Zayd:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) intended to do many things for calling (the people) to prayer, but he did not do any of them. Then Abdullah ibn Zayd was taught in a dream how to pronounce the call to prayer. He came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and informed him. He said: Teach it to Bilal. He then taught him, and Bilal made a call to prayer. Abdullah said: I saw it in a dream and I wished to pronounce it, but he (the Prophet) said: You should pronounce iqamah.

And this one:

Book 2, Number 0507:

Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:

Prayer passed through three stages and fasting also passed through three stages. The narrator Nasr reported the rest of the tradition completely. The narrator, Ibn al-Muthanna, narrated the story of saying prayer facing in the direction of Jerusalem.

He said: The third stage is that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) came to Medina and prayed, i.e. facing Jerusalem, for thirteen months.

Then Allah, the Exalted, revealed the verse: "We have seen thee turning thy face to Heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wherever ye may be, turn your face (when ye pray) toward it" (ii.144). And Allah, the Reverend and the Majestic, turned (them) towards the Ka'bah. He (the narrator) completed his tradition.

The narrator, Nasr, mentioned the name of the person who had the dream, saying: And Abdullah ibn Zayd, a man from the Ansar, came. The same version reads: And he turned his face towards the qiblah and said: Allah is most great, Allah is most great; I testify that there is no god but Allah, I testify that there is no god but Allah; I testify that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, I testify that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah; come to prayer (he pronounced it twice), come to salvation (he pronounced it twice); Allah is Most Great, Allah is most great. He then paused for a while, and then got up and pronounced in a similar way, except that after the phrase "Come to salvation" he added. "The time for prayer has come, the time for prayer has come."

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Teach it to Bilal, then pronounce the adhan (call to prayer) with the same words. As regards fasting, he said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to fast for three days every month, and would fast on the tenth of Muharram. Then Allah, the Exalted, revealed the verse: ".......Fasting was prescribed for those before you, that ye may ward off (evil)......and for those who can afford it there is a ransom: the feeding of a man in need (ii.183-84). If someone wished to keep the fast, he would keep the fast; if someone wished to abandon the fast, he would feed an indigent every day; it would do for him. But this was changed. Allah, the Exalted, revealed: "The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an ..........(let him fast the same) number of other days" (ii.185).

Hence the fast was prescribed for the one who was present in the month (of Ramadan) and the traveller was required to atone (for them); feeding (the indigent) was prescribed for the old man and woman who were unable to fast. (The narrator, Nasr, further reported): The companion Sirmah, came after finishing his day's work......and he narrated the rest of the tradition.

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No, shias dont say that Umer started the adhan.

What they DO say is that he inserted 'assalatu khairun min annaum' in the fajr adhan.

However, there are also ahadith that show that the prophet did the same. I don't know which narration is stronger.

Anyone else have any ideas?

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Salam Alaikum

The story that the Sunnis take, not because of its authenticity or accuracy, but because it gives Umar another merit, is that The Prophet (S) was asking his companions how one should call people to prayer. Some said drum, trumpet, but Umar said human voice, and his idea was granted by Allah.

:rolleyes:

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No, shias dont say that Umer started the adhan.

What they DO say is that he inserted 'assalatu khairun min annaum' in the fajr adhan.

However, there are also ahadith that show that the prophet did the same. I don't know which narration is stronger.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Part 1

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Edited by zainabia

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sallamu alaikum

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمود بن غيلان ‏ ‏قال حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏قال أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏قال أخبرني ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏ابن عمر ‏ ‏كان يقول ‏

‏كان المسلمون حين قدموا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏يجتمعون ‏ ‏فيتحينون ‏ ‏الصلاة ليس ينادى لها فتكلموا يوما في ذلك فقال بعضهم اتخذوا ناقوسا مثل ناقوس ‏ ‏النصارى ‏ ‏وقال بعضهم بل بوقا مثل قرن ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏أولا تبعثون رجلا ينادي بالصلاة فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يا ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قم فناد بالصلاة

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 11, Number 578

When the Muslims arrived at Medina, they used to assemble for the prayer, and used to guess the time for it. During those days, the practice of Adhan for the prayers had not been introduced yet. Once they discussed this problem regarding the call for prayer. Some people suggested the use of a bell like the Christians, others proposed a trumpet like the horn used by the Jews, but Umar was the first to suggest that a man should call (the people) for the prayer; so Allah's Apostle ordered Bilal to get up and pronounce the Adhan for prayers.

-- ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم الحنظلي ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن بكر ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏و حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن رافع ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏قالا أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏هارون بن عبد الله ‏ ‏واللفظ له ‏ ‏قال حدثنا ‏ ‏حجاج بن محمد ‏ ‏قال قال ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏مولى ‏ ‏ابن عمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏ ‏أنه قال ‏

‏كان المسلمون حين قدموا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏يجتمعون فيتحينون الصلوات وليس ينادي بها أحد فتكلموا يوما في ذلك فقال بعضهم اتخذوا ناقوسا مثل ناقوس ‏ ‏النصارى ‏ ‏وقال بعضهم قرنا مثل قرن ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏أولا تبعثون رجلا ينادي بالصلاة قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يا ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قم فناد بالصلاة

(Sahih Muslim, through different chains)

-- ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏محمد بن إسمعيل ‏ ‏وإبراهيم بن الحسن ‏ ‏قالا حدثنا ‏ ‏حجاج ‏ ‏قال قال ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏

‏أنه كان يقول كان المسلمون حين قدموا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏يجتمعون فيتحينون الصلاة وليس ينادي بها أحد فتكلموا يوما في ذلك فقال بعضهم اتخذوا ‏ ‏ناقوسا ‏ ‏مثل ‏ ‏ناقوس ‏ ‏النصارى ‏ ‏وقال بعضهم بل ‏ ‏قرنا ‏ ‏مثل قرن ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏أولا تبعثون رجلا ينادي بالصلاة فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يا ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قم فناد بالصلاة

(Sunan Nasai)

What they DO say is that he inserted 'assalatu khairun min annaum' in the fajr adhan

The report is Mursal in the Muwatta.

The reports that say the Prophet added are:

Sahih of Ibn Khuzaymah 385, 386; Sahih of Ibn Hibban 1682; Sunan of Abu Dawud 500, 501, 504; Sunan Nasai 633, 647, 707; Sunan Ibn Majah 716; Sunan Nasai al Kubra 1597, 1611; Sunan Bahaqi Al Kubraa 1617, 1824, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1731, 1834, 1836, 1837, 1838, 1840, 1845, and many others in Musnad Ahmad and other books.

All four schools of Ahl al-Sunna are unanimous that Ijma - consensus - is binding upon Muslims, and the ijma has retained the tathwib as part of the Sunna of adhan. So it really doesn't matter whether you or the rest of us "second-guess" Umar or not -- not to mention whether you or the rest of us are qualified to do so in the slightest -- because we are not following our Master Umar in this (may Allah be pleased with him), but we are following the Ijma of Muslims, which we are not at liberty to "second-guess."

Thats why in near future Inshallah you gonna see some excellent work on this topic at Answering-Ansar.org .

I seriously doubt

Edited by salmany

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the idea that azaan is an innovation of Omar was one of the big things that made me leave sunnism, noone can make additions to islam, not even the prophet, the sunni story that the Prophet on a whim introduced fasting for ashura after learning that the jews did it also reinforced my feeling that something wasn't right. even worse was finding out that the 4 caliphs had authority to make any addition to islam and some people actually say they had permission to abrogate the quran.

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the idea that azaan is an innovation of Omar was one of the big things that made me leave sunnism, noone can make additions to islam, not even the prophet, the sunni story that the Prophet on a whim introduced fasting for ashura after learning that the jews did it also reinforced my feeling that something wasn't right. even worse was finding out that the 4 caliphs had authority to make any addition to islam and some people actually say they had permission to abrogate the quran.

sallamu alaikum

Ignorance is indeed a bliss, especially when one leaves something based on such issues not knowing the details behind them.

I will repeat once again, The hadith that state the Pophet commanded Bilal to say "Assalatu Khairum minanaum" are:

Sahih of Ibn Khuzaymah 385, 386; Sahih of Ibn Hibban 1682; Sunan of Abu Dawud 500, 501, 504; Sunan Nasai 633, 647, 707; Sunan Ibn Majah 716; Sunan Nasai al Kubra 1597, 1611; Sunan Bahaqi Al Kubraa 1617, 1824, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1731, 1834, 1836, 1837, 1838, 1840, 1845, and many others in Musnad Ahmad and other books.

The only report that states our Master Umar did it is in the Muwatta of Imam Malik. The report is Mursal i.e has no chain.

even worse was finding out that the 4 caliphs had authority to make any addition to islam and some people actually say they had permission to abrogate the quran.

It is not called an addition, but is called: "Follow my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly guided Caliphs."

Secondly, i would suggest peopel learn the definition of Bida, in detail.

Thirdly, aborgate the Quran? Lies and more lies.

Its odd though. You will perfectly be pleased with adding Ali in the Adhaan, although it is a Ghulat practice and not part of the original Adhaan, as testified by your Ulema, but not allow us to repeat something the Prophet commanded.

Edited by salmany

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finally sunnies got a advocate for umar

salmany some time ago i post a topic to gain some info about umar may be you can help me on that too

let me know if you are willing to

Edited by GHULAAM E ABBAS

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Sahih Bukhar, Volume 1, Book 11, Number 578:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

When the Muslims arrived at Medina, they used to assemble for the prayer, and used to guess the time for it. During those days, the practice of Adhan for the prayers had not been introduced yet. Once they discussed this problem regarding the call for prayer. Some people suggested the use of a bell like the Christians, others proposed a trumpet like the horn used by the Jews, but 'Umar was the first to suggest that a man should call (the people) for the prayer;so Allah's Apostle(peace be upon him) ordered Bilal to get up and pronounce the Adhan for prayers.

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 577:

Narrated Anas:

The people mentioned the fire and the bell (they suggested those as signals to indicate the starting of prayers), and by that they mentioned the Jews and the Christians. Then Bilal was ordered to pronounce Adhan for the prayer by saying its wordings twice, and for the Iqama (the call for the actual standing for the prayers in rows) by saying its wordings once. (Iqama is pronounced when the people are ready for the prayer).

Volume 1, Book 11, Number 580:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

When the number of Muslims increased they discussed the question as to how to know the time for the prayer by some familiar means. Some suggested that a fire be lit (at the time of the prayer) and others put forward the proposal to ring the bell. Bilal was ordered to pronounce the wording of Adhan twice and of the Iqama once only.

This next hadeeth is long i'm only going to paste some parts of it:

Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:

...

The narrator, Nasr, mentioned the name of the person who had the dream, saying: And Abdullah ibn Zayd, a man from the Ansar, came. The same version reads: And he turned his face towards the qiblah and said: Allah is most great, Allah is most great; I testify that there is no god but Allah, I testify that there is no god but Allah; I testify that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, I testify that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah; come to prayer (he pronounced it twice), come to salvation (he pronounced it twice); Allah is Most Great, Allah is most great. He then paused for a while, and then got up and pronounced in a similar way, except that after the phrase "Come to salvation" he added. "The time for prayer has come, the time for prayer has come." The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Teach it to Bilal, then pronounce the adhan (call to prayer) with the same words.

Edited by New Sunni

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finally sunnies got a advocate for umar

salmany some time ago i post a topic to gain some info about umar may be you can help me on that too

let me know if you are willing to

sallamu alaikum

I am not an advocate for my Master Umar, nor am i an advocate of Ahly Sunnah as a whole. I am not a scholar, but a student of scholars. If i see something wrong which i have the capacity to correct i do so.

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the idea that azaan is an innovation of Omar was one of the big things that made me leave sunnism, noone can make additions to islam, not even the prophet, the sunni story that the Prophet on a whim introduced fasting for ashura after learning that the jews did it also reinforced my feeling that something wasn't right. even worse was finding out that the 4 caliphs had authority to make any addition to islam and some people actually say they had permission to abrogate the quran.

sallamu alaikum

Ignorance is indeed a bliss, especially when one leaves something based on such issues not knowing the details behind them.

I will repeat once again, The hadith that state the Pophet commanded Bilal to say "Assalatu Khairum minanaum" are:

Sahih of Ibn Khuzaymah 385, 386; Sahih of Ibn Hibban 1682; Sunan of Abu Dawud 500, 501, 504; Sunan Nasai 633, 647, 707; Sunan Ibn Majah 716; Sunan Nasai al Kubra 1597, 1611; Sunan Bahaqi Al Kubraa 1617, 1824, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1731, 1834, 1836, 1837, 1838, 1840, 1845, and many others in Musnad Ahmad and other books.

The only report that states our Master Umar did it is in the Muwatta of Imam Malik. The report is Mursal i.e has no chain.

even worse was finding out that the 4 caliphs had authority to make any addition to islam and some people actually say they had permission to abrogate the quran.

It is not called an addition, but is called: "Follow my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly guided Caliphs."

Secondly, i would suggest peopel learn the definition of Bida, in detail.

Thirdly, aborgate the Quran? Lies and more lies.

Its odd though. You will perfectly be pleased with adding Ali in the Adhaan, although it is a Ghulat practice and not part of the original Adhaan, as testified by your Ulema, but not allow us to repeat something the Prophet commanded.

(salam)

i didn't say i left sunnism solely due to this issue, there were hundreds of big things, and this was one of them, and you are in fact the only sunni i have ever talked to who disputes this version of events. i'm glad you do but it appears to me you are in the minority.

It is not called an addition, but is called: "Follow my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly guided Caliphs."
the prophet did not make up his sunnah by himself, everything he commanded came from God, can the three caliphs claim the same? no, i don't think they can, but i suppose now somebodys going to pull out a fabricated sahih saying they were all best friends with Jibriel (as) and accompanied the prophet on his ascension to paradise. do you not see the difference? the sunnah of the prophet came from God but Omar just made things up by himself. are you familiar with the narrations of your sect concerning ashura? how do you think its possible the Prophet would introduce a practice not because God had instructed him to but because he saw the jews doing it? i think it is you that needs to look up the definition of biddah
Thirdly, aborgate the Quran? Lies and more lies
you might not say that, but there are people who do, they say the sunnah of the caliphs abrogates the Quran. since you obviously prefer to believe the historical accounts that are supported by the most hadith, i suppose you agree that it was Omar who abrogated mutah which had been made legal in the Quran, so you must be one of these abrogation people

as for the testimony to Ali (as), my understanding is that it came from the Prophet but was not revealed to the people during his lefetime since it was not yet necessary so it was finally revealed by the Imams when it became necessary to combat the blasphemy against Ali (as). do you see the difference between the sunnah of the Imams and the sunnah of the caliphs? what the Imams taught came from the Prophet, and all of that came from God, what the caliphs taught did not come from God, so it must have come from satan

Edited by DFC

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"Follow my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly guided Caliphs."

Have you gone insane? :o Why would i be followign the teachings of somebody who abrogates the teaching of Prophet(sal) and of those previous to him?

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sallamu alaikum

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمود بن غيلان ‏ ‏قال حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏قال أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏قال أخبرني ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏ابن عمر ‏ ‏كان يقول ‏

‏كان المسلمون حين قدموا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏يجتمعون ‏ ‏فيتحينون ‏ ‏الصلاة ليس ينادى لها فتكلموا يوما في ذلك فقال بعضهم اتخذوا ناقوسا مثل ناقوس ‏ ‏النصارى ‏ ‏وقال بعضهم بل بوقا مثل قرن ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏أولا تبعثون رجلا ينادي بالصلاة فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يا ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قم فناد بالصلاة

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 11, Number 578

When the Muslims arrived at Medina, they used to assemble for the prayer, and used to guess the time for it. During those days, the practice of Adhan for the prayers had not been introduced yet. Once they discussed this problem regarding the call for prayer. Some people suggested the use of a bell like the Christians, others proposed a trumpet like the horn used by the Jews, but Umar was the first to suggest that a man should call (the people) for the prayer; so Allah's Apostle ordered Bilal to get up and pronounce the Adhan for prayers.

-- ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم الحنظلي ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن بكر ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏و حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن رافع ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏قالا أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏ح ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏هارون بن عبد الله ‏ ‏واللفظ له ‏ ‏قال حدثنا ‏ ‏حجاج بن محمد ‏ ‏قال قال ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏مولى ‏ ‏ابن عمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏ ‏أنه قال ‏

‏كان المسلمون حين قدموا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏يجتمعون فيتحينون الصلوات وليس ينادي بها أحد فتكلموا يوما في ذلك فقال بعضهم اتخذوا ناقوسا مثل ناقوس ‏ ‏النصارى ‏ ‏وقال بعضهم قرنا مثل قرن ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏أولا تبعثون رجلا ينادي بالصلاة قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يا ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قم فناد بالصلاة  

(Sahih Muslim, through different chains)

--  ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏محمد بن إسمعيل ‏ ‏وإبراهيم بن الحسن ‏ ‏قالا حدثنا ‏ ‏حجاج ‏ ‏قال قال ‏ ‏ابن جريج ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏نافع ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن عمر ‏

‏أنه كان يقول كان المسلمون حين قدموا ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏يجتمعون فيتحينون الصلاة وليس ينادي بها أحد فتكلموا يوما في ذلك فقال بعضهم اتخذوا ‏ ‏ناقوسا ‏ ‏مثل ‏ ‏ناقوس ‏ ‏النصارى ‏ ‏وقال بعضهم بل ‏ ‏قرنا ‏ ‏مثل قرن ‏ ‏اليهود ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏عمر ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏ ‏أولا تبعثون رجلا ينادي بالصلاة فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يا ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قم فناد بالصلاة

(Sunan Nasai)

What they DO say is that he inserted 'assalatu khairun min annaum' in the fajr adhan

The report is Mursal in the Muwatta.

The reports that say the Prophet added are:

Sahih of Ibn Khuzaymah 385, 386; Sahih of Ibn Hibban 1682; Sunan of Abu Dawud 500, 501, 504; Sunan Nasai 633, 647, 707; Sunan Ibn Majah 716; Sunan Nasai al Kubra 1597, 1611; Sunan Bahaqi Al Kubraa 1617, 1824, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1731, 1834, 1836, 1837, 1838, 1840, 1845, and many others in Musnad Ahmad and other books.

All four schools of Ahl al-Sunna are unanimous that Ijma - consensus - is binding upon Muslims, and the ijma has retained the tathwib as part of the Sunna of adhan. So it really doesn't matter whether you or the rest of us "second-guess" Umar or not -- not to mention whether you or the rest of us are qualified to do so in the slightest -- because we are not following our Master Umar in this (may Allah be pleased with him), but we are following the Ijma of Muslims, which we are not at liberty to "second-guess."

Thats why in near future Inshallah you gonna see some excellent work on this topic at Answering-Ansar.org .

I seriously doubt

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

So, it is undecided who gave suggestion for Adhan. Was it:

1) Abdullah Ibn Zayd

2) Or was it Umar Ibn Khattab.

One may also ask this question this way:

---- Who was a lair between these two??????

==========================

Regarding Hadith of Muwatta Imam Malik, the excuse is:

"It is a Mursal Hadith"

Brother Salmany, I am afraid you haven't read the Urdu pages properly. While just after quoting this hadith, it has been written:

This hadith has been quoted by "Darqutni"from Abdullah Ibn Um with Sanad ar.

==========================

Moreover, brother Salmany you wrote:

Sahih of Ibn Khuzaymah 385, 386; Sahih of Ibn Hibban 1682; Sunan of Abu Dawud 500, 501, 504; Sunan Nasai 633, 647, 707; Sunan Ibn Majah 716; Sunan Nasai Kubra 1597, 1611; Sunan Bahaqi Al Kubraa 1617, 1824, 1831, 1832, 1833, 1835, 1731, 1834, 1836, 1837, 1838, 1840, 1845, and many others in Musnad Ahmad and other books.

I am afraid brother that simply giving these references are not enough.

1) We have to see how many primary sources are there among them.

2) How authentic these traditions are

(As already shown in Urdu Pages that it has been narrated by Kadhaab people in two ways in Sunnan Abu Dawud and in one Kadhab way in Jama Tirmidhi.

=========================

The excuse about hadith of Malik was ...... "it is Mursal".

But what is the excuse for the "Opinion" of "Imam Tirmidhi", "Abu Isa" and "Ishaaq"?

index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=432493.gif

==========================

Regarding Excuse of Ijma

I don't consider any such thing to be Ijma of Ummah, in which Aima of Ahle Bait (as) are not included.

And I really don't know why you are taking refuge behind "Ijma". Once it is established to part of Sunnah of Nabi (saw), there would be no need of Ijma.

PS: Brother Salmany please tell me if Sunnies read this extra pharase in Adhan with Niyyat of Wajib or Mustahab... etc.

Was Salam.

Edited by zainabia

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sallamu alaikum

i didn't say i left sunnism solely due to this issue, there were hundreds of big things, and this was one of them, and you are in fact the only sunni i have ever talked to who disputes this version of events. i'm glad you do but it appears to me you are in the minority.

That statement says it all Akhi. It is definitely not a minority ruling. I have stated:

All four schools of Ahl al-Sunna are unanimous that Ijma - consensus - is binding upon Muslims, and the ijma has retained the tathwib as part of the Sunna of adhan. So it really doesn't matter whether you or the rest of us "second-guess" Umar or not -- not to mention whether you or the rest of us are qualified to do so in the slightest -- because we are not following our Master Umar in this (may Allah be pleased with him), but we are following the Ijma of Muslims, which we are not at liberty to "second-guess."

Do you know what an Ijma is? People are ignorant of our scholars, yet they speak like they know them inside out.

i suppose you agree that it was Omar who abrogated mutah which had been made legal in the Quran, so you must be one of these abrogation people

The Prophet did, and the abrogation of Mutah is once again based on Ijma. Our scholars know very well the Proofs Shias bring forth.

Regarding Hadith of Muwatta Imam Malik, the excuse is:

"It is a Mursal Hadith"

Brother Salmany, I am afraid you haven't read the Urdu pages properly. While just after quoting this hadith, it has been written:

If you could provide the Sanad then well and good.

I am afraid brother that simply giving these references are not enough.

1) We have to see how many primary sources are there among them.

2) How authentic these traditions are

(As already shown in Urdu Pages that it has been narrated by Kadhaab people in two ways in Sunnan Abu Dawud and in one Kadhab way in Jama Tirmidhi.

The formula 'Prayer is better than Sleep' in the Fajr Adhan was added not by Umar but by Bilal, *in the time of the Prophet,* as stated by Zuhri in Ibn Majahs Sunan and Said ibn Musayyab in Ahmads Musnad, and narrated with sound chains from Bilal by Ibn Majah and from Abdullah ibn Zayd by Ahmad, and Abu Madhara in Sunan Nasai.

It is also in Sunan Al Darimi:

‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏عثمان بن عمر بن فارس ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏حفص بن عمر بن سعد المؤذن ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏سعدا ‏ ‏كان يؤذن في ‏ ‏مسجد رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏حفص ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏أهلي ‏

‏أن ‏ ‏بلالا ‏ ‏أتى رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يؤذنه لصلاة الفجر فقالوا إنه نائم فنادى ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏بأعلى صوته ‏ ‏الصلاة خير من النوم فأقرت في أذان صلاة الفجر ‏

‏قال ‏ ‏أبو محمد ‏ ‏يقال ‏ ‏سعد القرظ

Which the Urdu writer failed to see. In Tirmidhi it states:

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أحمد بن منيع ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو أحمد الزبيري ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو إسرائيل ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الحكم ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن بن أبي ليلى ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قال ‏

‏قال لي رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏لا ‏ ‏تثوبن ‏ ‏في شيء من الصلوات إلا في صلاة الفجر

In The Sharh of Tirmidhi entitled تحفة الأحوذي بشرح جامع الترمذي it says that Abu dawud narrates a similar hadith and then further says:

ورواه ابن حبان في صحيحه

"Ibn Hibban mentioned it in his Sahih."

Further it says:

والدارقطني ثم البيهقي في سننهما

"And Daraqtuni and Al baihaqi mentioned it in their Sunans."

وقال البيهقي إسناده صحيح

"And Baihaqi said Isnadu Sahih."

Further it states Anas narrating it and Ibn Kuhzayma in his Sahih:

وفي الباب أيضا عن أنس قال من السنة إذا قال المؤذن في أذان الفجر حي على الصلاة حي على الفلاح قال : الصلاة خير من النوم أخرجه ابن خزيمة في صحيحه

Further in the commentary on Sunan Abu Dawud, in Awn Al Ma'bud it states:

الشافعي ومالك وأحمد وجمهور العلماء إلى أن الترجيع في الأذان ثابت لهذا الحديث وهو حديث صحيح

"And Shaif, Malik and Ahmad and the Majority of other scholars state that Tawthib is in the call to prayer, it is established and in authentic hadith."

Continuing, Imam Ahmad also cites this hadith from Abu Mahdhura with a different chain:

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي جعفر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏ليس هو ‏ ‏الفراء ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي محذورة ‏

‏قال ‏ ‏كنت أؤذن في زمن النبي ‏‏ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في صلاة الصبح فإذا قلت حي على الفلاح قلت الصلاة خير من النوم الصلاة خير من النوم الأذان الأول

Another hadith by Nasai which the author ignored:

‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏سويد بن نصر ‏ ‏قال أنبأنا ‏ ‏عبد الله ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي جعفر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي محذورة ‏ ‏قال ‏

‏كنت أؤذن لرسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وكنت أقول في أذان الفجر الأول حي على الفلاح الصلاة خير من النوم الصلاة خير من النوم الله أكبر الله أكبر لا إله إلا الله

The excuse about hadith of Malik was ...... "it is Mursal". But what is the excuse for the "Opinion" of "Imam Tirmidhi", "Abu Isa" and "Ishaaq"?

This is not the opinion of Imam Tirmidhi, but of the latter two, which he simply cites. Even if this was their opinion, it still makes no difference. As stated before, the more correct report is that it is Bilal who first inserted the formula in the call to the dawn prayer and the Prophet retained it.

الشافعي ومالك وأحمد وجمهور العلماء إلى أن الترجيع في الأذان ثابت لهذا الحديث وهو حديث صحيح

"And Shaif, Malik and Ahmad and the Majority of other scholars state that Tawthib is in the call to prayer, it is established and in authentic hadith."

regarding Ibn Umar

Deception is not good. The hadith in Sunan abu dawud states:

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن كثير ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو يحيى القتات ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏مجاهد ‏ ‏قال ‏

‏كنت مع ‏ ‏ابن عمر ‏ ‏فثوب ‏ ‏رجل في الظهر ‏ ‏أو العصر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏اخرج بنا فإن هذه بدعة

The statement "prayer is better then sleep" was said during Dhuhr and Asr, that is why Ibn Umar said it was Bidah. According to Sunnis, it is only said during FAJR.

Also, Imam Tirmidhi states:

‏فقال ‏ ‏بعضهم التثويب أن يقول في أذان الفجر الصلاة خير من النوم وهو قول ‏ ‏ابن المبارك ‏ ‏وأحمد ‏

and

‏ ‏ابن المبارك ‏ ‏وأحمد ‏ ‏أن التثويب أن يقول المؤذن في أذان الفجر الصلاة خير من النوم وهو قول صحيح

mentioning that Ibn Al Mubarak and Imam Ahmad said tha hadith that it should only be said during Fajr (which is already evident implicitly) was Sahih.

sallam

Edited by salmany

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The formula 'Prayer is better than Sleep' in the Fajr Adhan was added not by Umar but by Bilal, *in the time of the Prophet,* as stated by Zuhri in Ibn Majahs Sunan and Said ibn Musayyab in Ahmads Musnad, and narrated with sound chains from Bilal by Ibn Majah and from Abdullah ibn Zayd by Ahmad, and Abu Madhara in Sunan Nasai.

What the heck? Now you're blaming Bilal the African for the bidah of Umar the Khattab? :huh: Racist :angry:

The Prophet did, and the abrogation of Mutah is once again based on Ijma. Our scholars know very well the Proofs Shias bring forth.

Don't preach the 'Ijma' [Edited Out]. Islam is NOT , i repeat, NOT 'Democratic'...

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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Regarding Hadith of Muwatta Imam Malik, the excuse is:

"It is a Mursal Hadith"

Brother Salmany, I am afraid you haven't read the Urdu pages properly. While just after quoting this hadith, it has been written:

If you could provide the Sanad then well and good.

I am afraid brother that simply giving these references are not enough.

1) We have to see how many primary sources are there among them.

2) How authentic these traditions are

(As already shown in Urdu Pages that it has been narrated by Kadhaab people in two ways in Sunnan Abu Dawud and in one Kadhab way in Jama Tirmidhi.

The formula 'Prayer is better than Sleep' in the Fajr Adhan was added not by Umar but by Bilal, *in the time of the Prophet,* as stated by Zuhri in Ibn Majahs Sunan and Said ibn Musayyab in Ahmads Musnad, and narrated with sound chains from Bilal by Ibn Majah and from Abdullah ibn Zayd by Ahmad, and Abu Madhara in Sunan Nasai.

Zuhri in Ibn Majahs

Under the name of Zuhri, you haven't given any hadith from Ibn Majah, but only the one from Sunan Al-Darim, as uder:

It is also in Sunan Al Darimi:

‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏عثمان بن عمر بن فارس ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏حفص بن عمر بن سعد المؤذن ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏سعدا ‏ ‏كان يؤذن في ‏ ‏مسجد رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏حفص ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏أهلي ‏

‏أن ‏ ‏بلالا ‏ ‏أتى رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يؤذنه لصلاة الفجر فقالوا إنه نائم فنادى ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏بأعلى صوته ‏ ‏الصلاة خير من النوم فأقرت في أذان صلاة الفجر ‏

‏قال ‏ ‏أبو محمد ‏ ‏يقال ‏ ‏سعد القرظ

We will come back to Zuhri (and other narrators) soon that how relaiable they are.

Which the Urdu writer failed to see. In Tirmidhi it states:

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أحمد بن منيع ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو أحمد الزبيري ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو إسرائيل ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الحكم ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن بن أبي ليلى ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏قال ‏

‏قال لي رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏لا ‏ ‏تثوبن ‏ ‏في شيء من الصلوات إلا في صلاة الفجر

In The Sharh of Tirmidhi entitled تحفة الأحوذي بشرح جامع الترمذي it says that Abu dawud narrates a similar hadith and then further says:

ورواه ابن حبان في صحيحه

"Ibn Hibban mentioned it in his Sahih."

Further it says:

والدارقطني ثم البيهقي في سننهما

"And Daraqtuni and Al baihaqi mentioned it in their Sunans."

وقال البيهقي إسناده صحيح

"And Baihaqi said Isnadu Sahih."

How can he say that Baihaqi has authenticated it (or how can Baihaqi authenticate it?

Haven't you seen what Tirmidhi has to write about this particular hadith:

index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=432493.gif

Need I to say any more on the Standard of authentication by Bayhaqi? Off course, all these are Sunni Traditions and they can make any thing authentic or unauthentic. But Ahadith of Ahle Bait (as) confirm that it was Umar Ibn Khattab who started this practice.

===========

Further in the commentary on Sunan Abu Dawud, in Awn Al Ma'bud it states:

الشافعي ومالك وأحمد وجمهور العلماء إلى أن الترجيع في الأذان ثابت لهذا الحديث وهو حديث صحيح

"And Shaif, Malik and Ahmad and the Majority of other scholars state that Tawthib is in the call to prayer, it is established and in authentic hadith."

We are not concerned about Shafi or Malik or Ahmad or Majority of Scholars (/Where has the claim of Ijma gone???), but Aima of Ahle Bait (as) confirming it to be a lie upon Rasool Allah (saw) and it was initiated only by Umar Ibn Khattab.

======================

Continuing, Imam Ahmad also cites this hadith from Abu Mahdhura with a different chain:

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي جعفر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن ‏ ‏ليس هو ‏ ‏الفراء ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سلمان ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي محذورة ‏

‏قال ‏ ‏كنت أؤذن في زمن النبي ‏‏ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في صلاة الصبح فإذا قلت حي على الفلاح قلت الصلاة خير من النوم الصلاة خير من النوم الأذان الأول

Had you seen in above pages correctly, you would have seen what has been written about this "Abi Mahdhora" by Ibn Hajar and Dhahabi, i.e. his Ahadith are Mahjhool and not able to take any Daleel from them.

The excuse about hadith of Malik was ...... "it is Mursal". But what is the excuse for the "Opinion" of "Imam Tirmidhi", "Abu Isa" and "Ishaaq"?

This is not the opinion of Imam Tirmidhi, but of the latter two, which he simply cites. Even if this was their opinion, it still makes no difference. As stated before, the more correct report is that it is Bilal who first inserted the formula in the call to the dawn prayer and the Prophet retained it.

Again...... where has gone the Ijma???

For me opinion of Aima of Ahle Bait (as) has much greater value against opinion of Malik or Ahmad ... etc.

regarding Ibn Umar

Deception is not good. The hadith in Sunan abu dawud states:

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن كثير ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سفيان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو يحيى القتات ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏مجاهد ‏ ‏قال ‏

‏كنت مع ‏ ‏ابن عمر ‏ ‏فثوب ‏ ‏رجل في الظهر ‏ ‏أو العصر ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏اخرج بنا فإن هذه بدعة

The statement "prayer is better then sleep" was said during Dhuhr and Asr, that is why Ibn Umar said it was Bidah. According to Sunnis, it is only said during FAJR.

1) The author has not shown any deception. He presented the hadith of by Imam Tirmidhi.

2) And it is Imam Tirmidhi who is making this so called Deception that Ibn Umar left mosque saying it Bidah.

3) The saying of Zuhr and Asr prayer is against "AQL" (Dirayat). What was the reason of saying "Salat is better than SLEEP" in Zuhr and Asr? It clearly shows this hadith has been forged in order to give justification of actions of Ibn Umar.

==============

Was Salam.

Was Salam.

Edited by zainabia

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Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

So, it is undecided who gave suggestion for Adhan. Was it:

1) Abdullah Ibn Zayd

2) Or was it Umar Ibn Khattab.

One may also ask this question this way:

---- Who was a lair between these two??????

==========================

And also the following.

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Follow my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly guided Caliphs

What is a Caliph in the Quran? in terms of Quran? These 'Caliphs' are no other than Ahlulbate (as)

ma'asalama

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What was Malik's opinion on this issue?

In this section of Morning prayer, Muwatta has 10 Ahadith and all of them from YAHYA.

And this Yahya says following:

Book 3, Number 3.1.8:

Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that the muadhdhin came to Umar ibn al-Khattab to call him to the subh prayer and found him sleeping, so he said, "Prayer is better than sleep," and Umar ordered him to put that in the adhan for subh .

1) This is the only ONE hadith about Tathweeb in this section. (and also in whole Muwatta)

2) Malik reported it from Ibn Umar.

3) Dar Qutni also reported it with Sanad from Ibn Umar

HOw can one still say that Malik was of this opinion that Rasool Allah (saw) initiated this phrase?

Was Salam

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Brother Salmany your understanding of the sunnah is fundamentally flawed, the Prophet did not introduce things into islam because he felt like it, or to appease his friends Omar and Bilal or whoever, or to make a point against the jews - whatever he taught came from God. So i don't care if it was Omar or Bilal or whoever else, human beings cannot introduce things into our religion, do you think God needed help from Bilal/Omar? was God incapable of devising Azaan by himself?

and since you think it is consensus rather than what the Prophet actually taught that is important, the vast majority of hadith regarding mutah are unanimous that it was Omar who banned mutah. and your scholars do not know very well this issue as you claim they do, infact they are quite incapable of making up their minds as to what actually happened; some deny there ever was any such thing as mutah (in defiance of all ijma!), some say mutah is abrogated within the Quran (despite the fact that the "abrogating" ayah was revealed before the one making mutah legal!), others say mutah was a one off but they really can't agree where it was made legal and then abrogated, and yet others believe mutah was made legal, and then banned, and then made legal and banned yet again (as if God had mood swings!) but only the minority actually follow precious ijma and admit it was Omar who abrogated the Quran

"Follow my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly guided Caliphs."

and what is your understanding of the term rightly guided? for me being rightly guided means not being able to do anything wrong due to being guided to do the right thing. so a rightly guided caliph could surely never be wrong in terms of jurispudence, am i right?

one day Caliph Umar during the course of his sermon to the people, said: "If any one marries and fixes a mehr (dowry) for more than 400 dirhams for his wife, I will inflict the prescribed punishment on him and will deposit the excess amount in the Baitu'l-Mal (Public Treasury)."

A woman from the audience called out: "Umar! Is what you say more acceptable or Allah's ordinance? Does not Allah Almighty say: 'And if you wish to have (one) wife in place of another and you have given one of them a heap of gold, then take not from it anything.'" (4:20)

Having heard this verse and the retort of the woman, Umar said: "You have better knowledge of fiqh and problems than Umar, all of you, including even the women observing purdah sitting in their homes."

Then Umar again mounted the pulpit and said: "Although I have forbidden you to give more than 400 dirhams as dowry to your wives, I now permit you to give as much as you like beyond the appointed limit. There is no harm in it."

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(bismillah)

(salam)

"Follow my Sunna and the Sunna of the rightly guided Caliphs."

1st what is Caliphs in the Quran? According to Quran definition who r the Caliphs?

Answer the rightly guided Caliphs are Ahlulbate (as).....who did not to any bida, change any adhan, who knew the sunna inside out, knew the Quran inside out..

ma'asalama

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Sallamu Alaikum

More weak and spurious arguements lacking even the basic requisites of knowledge.

We will come back to Zuhri (and other narrators) soon that how relaiable they are.

Who is we? Shia interpretation fo Sunn Hadith? Insha'Allah i will post on zuhri, relied upon by ALL 6 Sahihs. A flawed shia opinion, based on picking and choosing, is not valid here.

How can he say that Baihaqi has authenticated it (or how can Baihaqi authenticate it?

Haven't you seen what Tirmidhi has to write about this particular hadith

Baihaqi was a scholar of hadith, that is how he authenticated it. Not a pakistani girl running around trying to show Sunnis what their hadith mean.

Secondly, Imam Tirmidhi only gave the opinion of 2 scholars and left it at that. At the same time he also stated that the Imams of ahly Sunnah and the majority did not agree with these two scholars.

Need I to say any more on the Standard of authentication by Bayhaqi? Off course, all these are Sunni Traditions and they can make any thing authentic or unauthentic. But Ahadith of Ahle Bait  confirm that it was Umar Ibn Khattab who started this practice.

Need you say more? Is that a new catch phrase that you come up with every other post? Read my lips: Imam Tirmidhi only states an OPINION held by 2 scholars yet at the same time gives the opinion of the Imams and other scholars.

We are not concerned about Shafi or Malik or Ahmad or Majority of Scholars (/Where has the claim of Ijma gone???), but Aima of Ahle Bait  confirming it to be a lie upon Rasool Allah (saw) and it was initiated only by Umar Ibn Khattab.

For a person who claims to know so much about Sunnism, its odd you do not know the definition of Ijma.

The hadith (regarding Ijma) is very clear that it is the vast majority of the Muslims -- which the scholars have interpreted to mean: the vast majority of the scholars -- who are the ones that must be followed, for all intents and purposes. The definition of ijma: alaykum bi al sawad al a`zam = "follow the greater mass." And this is definitely neither the Shia nor other sects, but only Ahly Sunnah.

Then you keep saying, "But Aima of Ahly bait confirmed it," but what do i have to do with Shia sources or Shia views? They are null to me, void, zero!

Had you seen in above pages correctly, you would have seen what has been written about this "Abi Mahdhora" by Ibn Hajar and Dhahabi, i.e. his Ahadith are Mahjhool and not able to take any Daleel from them.

I will post on Abu Mandhara soon, but regardless this hadith is narrated from many others, including Bilal, Abdullah bin Zaid (you remember him dont you?), Zuhri etc.

Again...... where has gone the Ijma???

For me opinion of Aima of Ahle Bait  has much greater value against opinion of Malik or Ahmad ... etc.

So much for that, when lost turn to, "Well my sect states this." And?

1) The author has not shown any deception. He presented the hadith of by Imam Tirmidhi.

2) And it is Imam Tirmidhi who is making this so called Deception that Ibn Umar left mosque saying it Bidah.

3) The saying of Zuhr and Asr prayer is against "AQL" (Dirayat). What was the reason of saying "Salat is better than SLEEP" in Zuhr and Asr? It clearly shows this hadith has been forged in order to give justification of actions of Ibn Umar.

How funny. The reader hasnt even read the hadith in arabic. Under the heading where Imam Tirmidhi states this the author of the Sharh states:

"This hadith has been narrated in the Sunan of Abu Dawud with the wording: .... "

Odd indeed, how deceptive some people are.

As for your 3rd point, it is useless and makes no sense and nor does it prove anything. You answered yourself. What was the reason? There was none, and that is why Ibn Umar LEFT.

All it shows is the readers ignorance of Hadith and hadith scholarship.

Sallam

Edited by salmany

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What was Malik's opinion on this issue?

In this section of Morning prayer, Muwatta has 10 Ahadith and all of them from YAHYA.

And this Yahya says following:

Book 3, Number 3.1.8:

Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that the muadhdhin came to Umar ibn al-Khattab to call him to the subh prayer and found him sleeping, so he said, "Prayer is better than sleep," and Umar ordered him to put that in the adhan for subh .

1) This is the only ONE hadith about Tathweeb in this section. (and also in whole Muwatta)

2) Malik reported it from Ibn Umar.

3) Dar Qutni also reported it with Sanad from Ibn Umar

HOw can one still say that Malik was of this opinion that Rasool Allah (saw) initiated this phrase?

Was Salam

sallam

Mursal again, and plus you havent shown any chain going to ibn umar yet.

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وذكر أنّ عبدالله بن عمر والامام السجّاد (عليه السلام) كانا يقولان في أذانهما حيّ على خير العمل.

وأمّا «الصلاة خير من النوم» فعندهم روايات كثيرة على أنّها بدعة، فراجعوا

كنز العمال 8 / 356 ـ 357.

The infamous Sunni book, "Kanz ul Ummal", also calls "Hayya Ala Khayr al Amal" as part of Salat on authority of Abdullah bin Omar and Imam Zain al Abidin a.s and near them both, "As Salato Khayrun Min An Nowm" as a BIDDAH [innovation] and not a part of Azan in rasool Allah's time even though there are many ahadiths which are false to that effect [according to the book]. Surely the author of Kanz ul Ummal knew ilm ar rijal and hadith more then salmany? correct me if that is not the case, since both are sunni.

Reference:

Kanzul Ummal Vol8. P356-357 [arabic edition]

So it is clear even your beloved sunni author has admitted on behalf of both ibn umar and an IMAM from AHLULBAYT a.s that your tathweeb is bid'ah and not sunnah. Will you now tell us that Kanzul Ummal was written by a shia or influenced by one? Get a grip.

As for speaking about types of innovation, dont even try to get there, because the Ahl ul Sunnah are very confused about that. Salmany and his likes try to protect the innovators [even if they may innovate excessively in opposition to the sunnah of prophet pbuh, as in many cases in the so called ijtihad of UMAR] and then classify it as "N'emal Biddah", the wonderfully good innovation...not caring if it is not just an innovation but infact a blatant opposition to the way Quran or prophet taught things to muslims. Anyhow the other side of the Ahlul Sunnah shows the following hadiths quoted often by their own scholars who vehemently oppose Bid'ah of any form:

Abdullaah ibn 'Umar said:

"Every innovation is misguidance, even if the people consider it to be something good."

Reference: Related by al-Bayhaqee in al-Madkhal ilas-Sunan (no.191) and also Ibn Nasr in as-Sunnah (p.24). Its isnaad (chain of narration) is as authentic as the sun!

Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood said:

"Follow and do not innovate, for you have been given that which is sufficient [and every innovation is misguidance]."

Reference: Related by Wakee' on az-Zuhd (no.315) and Abu Khaythamah in Kitaabul-'Ilm (no.54), where al-Albaanee authenticated it. The addition is related by at-Tabaraanee in al-Kabeer (9/154) and it is authentic.

Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam used to count the tasbeeh (glorifications of Allaah) upon his right hand.[1] and he said that they (i.e., the fingers) will he questioned and would speak.[2]

[1] Saheeh: Related by Abu Daawood in his Sunan (no.1502), from 'Abdullaah ibn 'Amr radiallaahu 'anhu. It was authenticated by al-Albaanee in Saheeh Sunan Abee Daawood (1/280).

[2] Hasan: Related by Abu Daawood in his Sunan (no.1501), from Yusairah radiallaahu 'anhaa. It was authenticated in Saheeh Sunan Abee Daawood (1/280).

Hassaan ibn 'Atiyyah (d.120H) - said:

"No people introduce an innovation into their religion, except that its like from the Sunnah is ripped away from them."

Reference: Related by ad-Daarimee (1/45) and it is authentic.

Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood said: "If you were to abandon the Sunnah of your Prophet then you would go astray." So if the Ummah goes astray then it is destroyed. Therefore 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood said to that group: "O Ummah of Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam! How quickly you head into destruction."

[note that abdullah ibn masood was a companion of prophet mohammad pbuh and thus in his time he was addressing those who included a very large number of companions too. This narration also confirms that a group of the ummah from the period of companions was headed towards destruction due to their bid'ah].

Reference: Related by Muslim in his Sahih (5/156).

Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood was not alone amongst the Companions in condemning innovations. Infact according to Ahl ul Sunnah we find 'Abdullaah ibn 'Umar, to be one of severest from the Companions in condemning innovations and abandoning the innovators. So once he heard a man sneezing and saying: Praise be to Allaah and may the salaah and salaam (the praises of Allaah and blessings of peace) be upon Allaah's Messenger. So he said to him: What is this? This is not what Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam taught us, rather he said: "When one of you sneezes then let him praise Allaah. " And he did not say: And also send salaah (blessings of peace) upon Allaah's Messenger.

Reference: Related by at-Tirmidhee (no.2738) and al-Mizzee in Tahdheebul-Kamaal (no.552-553)

It is reported from Sa'eed ibn al-Musayyib (d.90H), that he saw a man praying after the appearance of dawn, more than two rak'ahs, making many rukoos (bowings) and sajdahs (prostrations), so he forbade him from this. So the man said: O Abu Muhammad (i.e. Ibn al-Musayyib)! Will Allaah punish me for my Prayer? So he said: "No! But He will punish you for opposing the Sunnah (Prophetic guidance)."

Reference: Related by al-Bayhaqee is as-Sunanul-Kubraa (2/466) and the isnaad is authentic.

IF such is the strictness of Ahlul Sunnah narrators with respect to Bid'ah [even if its a good one, the excuse used by apologetics saving grace of Umar] then for a person to be exempted from all blame just because he is a CALIPH or FAVORITE SAHABI of SUNNIS does not make any sense. The laws of sunnah and Quran are not different for the elites of sunnis, or are they now?

Salmany, you become arrogant and highly anti shia when you say things like "for me shia hadith/literature is null, void or unacceptable" but that is expected of you as you cannot think beyond the conjecture based concept of your khulafa al rashida. You claim that the khulafa al rashida are the four caliphs of sunnis while the shia claim they are the 12 imams of ahlulbayt a.s. You excitedly quote hadiths of your side AS SAHIH and write odes of praise for them while you reject others as void and null and by this argument the other should also reject you and your arguments and sources as null and void....but still we are patient in dealing with your likes because your argument is FLAWED as it assumes THAT THE KHULAFA RASHIDEEN mentioned are the four caliphs in your hadith by the names of UMAR ABU BAKR AND IMAM ALI a.s....you use absolute conjecture and combination of false hadiths while you have the nerve to analyze ilm al rijal for that which doesnt suit your fancy.

Not only does this UMAR introduce Bidah which his own SON and Abdullah bin Masood call as HARAM even if in good sense, HE ALSO categorically rejected, banned or abolish the obligatory or sunnah acts in laws of islam:

Umar ibn al-Khattab has been narrated to have said: "O people, three things existed during the time of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh&hf) that I prohibit and make unlawful and will punish for: mut'at al-hajj, mut'at al-nisa, and 'hayya 'ala khayr al-'amal'."

Reference: Sharh al-Tajrid, Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal 1:49

As for "Al-salat khayrun min al-nawm.", Imam Muslim and Abu Dawud concur that this sentence was not part of the adhan during the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh&hf), and Tirmidhi asserts that 'Umar was the one who added it

Reference: Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 1:64

Edited by SyedFarid

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وذكر أنّ عبدالله بن عمر والامام السجّاد (عليه السلام) كانا يقولان في أذانهما حيّ على خير العمل.

وأمّا «الصلاة خير من النوم» فعندهم روايات كثيرة على أنّها بدعة، فراجعوا

كنز العمال 8 / 356 ـ 357.

The infamous Sunni book, "Kanz ul Ummal", also calls "Hayya Ala Khayr al Amal" as part of Salat on authority of Abdullah bin Omar and Imam Zain al Abidin a.s and near them both, "As Salato Khayrun Min An Nowm" as a BIDDAH [innovation] and not a part of Azan in rasool Allah's time even though there are many ahadiths which are false to that effect [according to the book]. Surely the author of Kanz ul Ummal knew ilm ar rijal and hadith more then salmany? correct me if that is not the case, since both are sunni.

Reference:

Kanzul Ummal Vol8. P356-357 [arabic edition]

Wow thanks for providing the Sanad to

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(salam)

Kanz al umal contains alot of weak stuff.

That's why we have to rely upon the ulema to grade the hadith.

By the way, the hadith you posted has no chain.

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(salam)

Kanz al umal contains alot of weak stuff.

That's why we have to rely upon the ulema to grade the hadith.

By the way, the hadith you posted has no chain.

Ditto

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You have to rely on the ulama to grade the hadith? so AL Muttaqi al Hindi was not an ULAMA? or you think he just wrote things randomly? Since when did you become ulama to give us authentic fatwa on hadiths of ahl ul sunnah and what on earth makes you think we dont possess or are also not in knowledge and possession of your books or equal or better aql? Just because we are shia means we dont have the write to read or analyze your books? [besides having everything in our books being degraded as null and void in totality] Sorry thats the theme in your sect, not here otherwise we would have blanked you out and finished the discussion long time ago by exposing the filth in the musnads and sihahs of your aslaaf and declaring them as null void and unacceptable too.

I do not know who gave you the right to outright criticize Kanz ul Ummal like that when it is in itself a selective extract/mo'jam of the hadiths from various other books of ahadith eg: Jamia al Sagheer by jalaluddin suyuti and various sihahs and masaneed. Infact its a very comprehensive title for those who want to see the large number of opinions and contradictions within Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamah. Which is in a way a good thing because you cannot just paste your selective works and call THEM as TRUTH and label only their ASANEED as SAHIH. If you thought i would be incapable of providing you the extracts precisely from Kanz ul Ummal or others then you are mistaken because i have the books with me and so lets get down to business. The quote in my previous post was after consulting the Risalah on "Adhan" by Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussain al Milani [h.a] and yes he is a scholar and mujtahid and knows ilm e rijal too. Since you have quoted your favorite ones [hadiths] already, many of those, whose chains go back to a liar [ أبي محذورة ] who been exposed before, i will get down to the remaining traditions which neither side has brought up before:

Tradition No. 23251 in Kanz ul Ummal:

عن ابن جريج قال: أخبرني حسن بن مسلم أن رجلا سأل طاوسا متى قيل: الصلاة خير من النوم؟ فقال: أما إنها لم تقل على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولكن بلالا سمعها في زمان أبي بكر بعد وفاة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقولها رجل غير مؤذن فأخذها منه، فأذن بها فلم يمكث أبو بكر إلا قليلا حتى إذا كان عمر قال: لو نهينا بلالا عن هذا الذي أحدث وكأنه نسيه وأذن به الناس حتى اليوم.

Clearly shows that this Tathweeb was not present in the time of the prophet pbuh and that Tawoos clearly says we never recited such in the prophets time and this bid'ah was introduced by Umar who ATTRIBUTED IT TO BILAL and then till today it is practiced as such. ITS VERY CLEAR what is meant here.

Similarly We read in Tradition No. 23252 of Kanz ul Ummal:

عن ابن جريج قال: أخبرني عمر بن حفص أن سعدا أول من قال: الصلاة خير من النوم في خلافة عمر فقال عمر: بدعة، ثم تركه وأن بلالا لم يؤذن لعمر

Aah says it all that it was UMAR who first started THIS BIDAH OF AS SALATO KHAYRUN MIN AL NOWM, NOT BILAL, and LATER ON HE STOPPED IT.

And in Tradition no 23243 of Kanz ul Ummal we read:

{مالك} (كتاب الصلاة باب ما جاء في النداء للصلاة رقم (151). ص) أنه بلغه أن المؤذن جاء إلى عمر بن الخطاب يؤذنه بصلاة الصبح فوجده نائما فقال: الصلاة خير من النوم، فأمره عمر أن يجعلها في نداء الصبح.

That it was UMAR who started the call of "as salato khayrun min an nawm" in fajr prayer and made it part of morning prayer.

In the book, نهج الحق وكشف الصدق : للعلامة الحلّي

Allamah Hilli r.a writes on page number 351:

و روى الحميدي في الجمع بين الصحيحين في مسند عمر بن الخطاب قال قال رسول الله (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) إذا قال المؤذن الله أكبر الله أكبر فقال أحدكم الله أكبر الله أكبر ثم قال أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله قال أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله ثم قال أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله قال أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله ثم قال حي على الصلاة قال لا حول و لا قوة إلا بالله ثم قال حي على الفلاح قال لا حول و لا قوة إلا بالله ثم قال الله أكبر الله أكبر قال الله أكبر الله أكبر ثم قال لا إله إلا الله قال لا إله إلا الله من قلبه دخل الجنة .

فهذه روايته و زاد بعد موت النبي (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) الصلاة خير من النوم .

و روى الحميدي في الجمع بين الصحيحين في حديث أبي محذورة سمرة بن مغيرة لما علمه الأذان الله أكبر الله أكبر أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله مرتين أشهد أن محمدا رسول الله مرتين حي على الصلاة مرتين حي على الفلاح مرتين الله أكبر لا إله إلا الله .

و قال الشافعي في كتاب الأم أكره في الأذان الصلاة خير من النوم لأن أبا محذورة لم يذكره .

So we can see clearly that the famous sunni muhaddith Hameedi in his "Al Jama Bayn Al Sahihayn" mentions in the "Musnad Umar bin Al Khattab" that "As salato Khayrun Min an Nowm was added to ADHAN AFTER THE DEATH OF THE HOLY PROPHET pbuh and Sunni Imam Shafii says in his book "Kitab al Umm" he dislikes [akraha or finds MAKROOH] the mention of As salat o Khayrun Min al Nawm in Adhaan and there is no mention by abu manzoorah either.

Edited by SyedFarid

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