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syed_shia

akhbari and usuli

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Wa Salaam,

I agree with Imam Khu'i's (R.A.) position. It should be something based upon precaution but not to do it should not invalidate one's amal based upon reason. It's a middle road. Are all of his lectures still available? I'm trying to collect everything I can on Agha Khu'i positions on various topics. I have his risalahs but need his lectures.

Wa Salaam,

Djibril

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Read this sister Zainabiya, a gift from a brother :

I am here to inform all brothers and sisters about a new book being Launched, this week, written by Syed Baqir Nisar Zaidi Sahib called Kashful Tazaad.

This book has been written to requests and reponses made by Momineen that Mujtahids have only minor differences and that Mujtahids only give fatwa in accordance with the Holy Quran and the Ahadees.

But Baqir Sahib has challenged that concept and has presented over 200 fatwa's where their is major ikhtelaaf between Mujtahids, where one is saying its halaal for something and the other making it haraam etc etc.

He also has written quite a number of Fatwa's which are incontradiction with the sayings of our Holy Imam's .

The following are the Mujtahids under the scope :

Agha Syed Ru-hullah Khomeini

Agha Syed Ali Hussaini Sistani

Agha Syed Ali Khamenei

Agha Syed Abul-Qasim Khoie

Agha Fazil Lankarani

Agha Dr Sadiq Tehrani.

It has been written in Urdu, but those people who do not understand Urdu, their is still a simple way you can gain benefit from the book too. You just need to approach someone who knows Urdu, at least the understanding of numbers, so that you may take the masslah or rule numbers from the book and check them in those Tawzee's which are in Arabic or in English.

Tohfah Yaa Ali Madad

Lets see sister if you can answer about these 200 Fatwa's ... :P

Dont ever mess with a True Malang :D

Edited by jang

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Salam Alaikum

Its amazing how petty this Baqir Zaidi is.

These ikhtilafat amongst mujtahideen are based on the ikhtilaaf that they find in hadeeths. There is no doubt that there is ikhtilaf in hadeeths, nobody can deny that.

So you got two choices:

(1) Follow a learned person who has studied the hadeeths and their differences and chosen one of them as per the usool taught by the Aimmah (A), giving either a fatwa or a precuationary measure. This may result in differences amongst a few fuqaha.

(2) Everybody follows their own choice, based on their own whims or reasoning and lack of knowledge, in which hadeeth to follow, resulting in more differences amongst the layfolk based on jahalat.

As for that translation of the introduction by Sheikh Kulaini (AR) of Al-Kafi, comparing it to the original Arabic text, anybody can notice the whimsical mirch masalah added to the Urdu translation. As the translator claims, translation of this introduction has not been hidden. The fact matter is that many Pakistanis dont possess Al-kafi and dont have the ability to read those 8 volumes and derive the ahkam themselves.

PS Who is this "Agha Dr Sadiq Tehrani"?? Some scape goat who nobody has heard of to add the extra punch of mirch masala in his book?

Edited by Abbas

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Wa Salaam,

.......It should be something based upon precaution but not to do it should not invalidate one's amal based upon reason. It's a middle road.

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

´Dear brother, I think we are saying the same thing. Let me myself more clear and insha-Allah you will see our opinion is almost the same:

1) one's amal based upon reason. It's a middle road.

Based Upon Reason

From Reason, I take a person who is enough qualified to bring forth the reasons of his Understanding.

Such a person doesn't need Taqleed, but he has to go for his own understandings.

[but please not include our so called Pakistani/Indian Akhbari Malang brothers in this list, whose understandings are based upon NO reason. And they are following their conjectures without knowing the complete truth.]

==============

It's a middle road

I understand from this "Ahtiyaat-e-Wajib" for unqualified people like me, who don't have full command over the principles of deriving legal Rulings (for example no knowledge of Arabic, Islamic History, Ilm e Rijal.....etc.).

==============

It is for sure if I go for any legal Ruling at my own, without knowing all Quranic Verses and Ahadith on these issue (along with not understanding their inner meanings), then my Aamal are not accepted. While then I am following my Qiyyas, and not Quran and Sunnah.

Was Salam.

PS:

==

Dear brother, I request you to please also make it clear in your posts that you have nothing to do with Aqaid of Akhbariat, so that these brothers don't misuse your post for supporting their views. Thanks.

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Wa Salaam,

.......It should be something based upon precaution but not to do it should not invalidate one's amal based upon reason. It's a middle road.

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

´Dear brother, I think we are saying the same thing. Let me myself more clear and insha-Allah you will see our opinion is almost the same:

1) one's amal based upon reason. It's a middle road.

Based Upon Reason

From Reason, I take a person who is enough qualified to bring forth the reasons of his Understanding.

Such a person doesn't need Taqleed, but he has to go for his own understandings.

[but please not include our so called Pakistani/Indian Akhbari Malang brothers in this list, whose understandings are based upon NO reason. And they are following their conjectures without knowing the complete truth.]

==============

It's a middle road

I understand from this "Ahtiyaat-e-Wajib" for unqualified people like me, who don't have full command over the principles of deriving legal Rulings (for example no knowledge of Arabic, Islamic History, Ilm e Rijal.....etc.).

==============

It is for sure if I go for any legal Ruling at my own, without knowing all Quranic Verses and Ahadith on these issue (along with not understanding their inner meanings), then my Aamal are not accepted. While then I am following my Qiyyas, and not Quran and Sunnah.

Was Salam.

PS:

==

Dear brother, I request you to please also make it clear in your posts that you have nothing to do with Aqaid of Akhbariat, so that these brothers don't misuse your post for supporting their views. Thanks.

Wa Salaam,

Thank you, Sis. Zainabia. However, it should be clear that I am not an Akhbari but then not a rigid usooli. I'm not an Akhbari, based upon all definitions I have ever seen, because I do believe hadith must come under scrutiny. I do look at isnad, rijal of narrators, etc. However, as I live and interact within a society thousands of miles away from the many marjaas that are out there I also have to look at taqleed in a different light. My perspective is probably outside the confines of this thread but I do not want anyone to think that I support "no taqleed" whatsoever but I am also not a supporter of mandatory taqleed. I would also venture to say that Allah knows best regarding whether one's amal is accepted or not. That may be where I would disagree with you.

Jafari fiqh has developed to this situation where you have Ayatullahs, Hujjatul Islam, Allamah, etc. These positions where not always around. They were/are natural developments of a breathing religion. I believe that as technology increases more people will develop the aptitude to "reason" out various aspects of their Islamic life. It is only natural because there are hadith that talk about as the time of Imam Zaman (A.S.) nears people will become smarter. Will they follow their logic? Well, that's another issue.

The only thing I say is that I do not believe that not doing taqleed will render one's amal void. That's not to say that my views won't change but at this stage of development that is where I am at. I do understand the precaution regarding taqleed and am more inclined to it but as stated, I do not see where if one were not follow that it would render their amal void. Allah knows best and may we all be saved by our actions and love of Aale Muhammad (A.S.)

Make way for Sahib uz-Zaman, the Lord of the Age, Insan-e-Kamal (A.S.) and may Allah bless and protect the righteous among the scholars.

These views are strictly mine and are not intended to draw people astray. This is where I am at in my life. My life is like no one else's nor is your life like mine. We are all the summation of our life experience's and can only act upon our individual levels of understanding. Allah bless.

Wa Salaam,

Djibril

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(salam)

after so much evidence from Quran, hadees, from Agha Khoi's words, sister zainabiyah still not believing.

maybe it's not right for you to gain truth, which Allah (SWT) has destined.

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(salam)

after so much evidence from Quran, hadees, from Agha Khoi's words, sister zainabiyah still not believing.

maybe it's not right for you to gain truth, which Allah (SWT) has destined.

Wa Salaam,

Brother, the sister provides a stronger evidence for taqleed than the evidence given for non-taqleed. The Akhbari argument of referring only to the Qur'an and sunnah is much like the argument of Umar Ibn Khattab saying all he needed was the Qur'an and sunnah. But how could they refer to them without proper guidance? In the age of the Greater Occultation, I am not one to say that taqleed is wrong. I only question whether not to do it renders one's amal void. I would agree to do it based upon precaution but that's my only argument. If taqleed to a fallible were not permissible then Imam Ali (A.S.) would not have had need for deputies throughout his caliphate. There would not have been need for providing instruction to Malik Ashtar (R.A.) or Abdullah ibn Abbas (R.A.), etc. Because they were at long distances from the Imam (A.S.) they could not always go to him for guidance. They had to judge things based upon their knowledge of Qur'an, the Sunnah of Muhammad (S.A.W.) and the sunnah of Ali ibn Abi Talib (A.S.). Imam Zaman (A.S.) would not have appointed deputies during the Lesser Occultation.

Islam teaches us the importance of leadership in every aspect of our lives. When two men travel, they should select one among them to lead the prayers and their affairs. A household is not stable without leadership. A business is not stable without leadership. Then what do we say about the affairs of an everyday Muslim who does not have the competency to deduce Islamic rulings. I am not being contradictory here in my view that not to do taqleed renders one's amal void but I do understand that without it then then the unlearned and unwise could lead unstable lives.

Both Shaykhul Islam Murtada Ansari and Shaykh Saduq quote the narration given from Imam Zaman (A.S.) as narrated by Ishaq ibn Yacub that, "As to the eventualities, you should refer regarding them to those who are narrators of our traditions, since they are my testament unto you, and I am God's testament." In the Najhul Balaaghah, Imam Ali (A.S.) tells us in Sermon 40 that men can not dispense with rulers, good or bad since the faithful perform good deeds from the rule of a just person and the unfaithful enjoy worldly benefits from the rule of the unjust. Taqleed is not or rather, should not be blind imitation but rather, the submission of the less learned to the learned.

Also, Allah (S.W.T.) says in Qur'an, "We verily sent our Mesengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance, that mankind may uphold justice." Surah 57:25 - How can justice be maintained if there are not a group of people who know how to maintain justice? On the basis of reason, not all people will know how to maintain justice because if it were so then all people would accept "La illaha illallah Muhammadan Rasoolullah".

Wa Salaam,

Djibril

Edited by Bro.Djibril

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(salam)

brother you have not understood anything yet i am afraid, you give only views but what about evidence to back it up.

If taqleed to a fallible were not permissible then Imam Ali (A.S.) would not have had need for deputies throughout his caliphate.

did the 4 wakils ever ask people to do their taqleed ?

did they publish their tawzee ?

did they call themselves wali-al-amar ?

They had to judge things based upon their knowledge of Qur'an, the Sunnah of Muhammad (S.A.W.) and the sunnah of Ali ibn Abi Talib (A.S.). Imam Zaman (A.S.) would not have appointed deputies during the Lesser Occultation

the real followers of the Imam's (as) followed the narration of the Imam's (as) not people's own opinions.

their is a great difference.

Both Shaykhul Islam Murtada Ansari and Shaykh Saduq quote the narration given from Imam Zaman (A.S.) as narrated by Ishaq ibn Yacub that, "As to the eventualities, you should refer regarding them to those who are narrators of our traditions, since they are my testament unto you, and I am God's

testament."

you need to understand the difference between a Narrator and a mujtahid ....

the Imam's (as) selected certain personalities to narrate their hadees, not for people to start passing their own judgements on things.

Also, Allah (S.W.T.) says in Qur'an, "We verily sent our Mesengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance, that mankind may uphold justice." Surah 57:25 - How can justice be maintained if there are not a group of people who know how to maintain justice? On the basis of reason, not all people will know how to maintain justice because if it were so then all people would accept "La illaha illallah Muhammadan Rasoolullah".

again giving ayat without tafseer of it ? justice is only upholded with our Imam (as) .

bro instead of presenting theories, please present proof from Quran and hadees. Allah (SWT) has never allowed any non-masoom to change or to give their opinions.

this is the very argument we present forward against sunnies, that we only obey those who Allah chooses, the same applies to shia's aswell.

You tell me who to follow ?

who is right ?

Agha Khoi - Maslah/Rule No : 2633 pg 391

"Mohr aur kavay ki mukhtalif iqsaam haraam hai"

"A Peacock and the different types of Crow are haraam"

Agha Sistani - Maslah/Rule No : 2699, pg 398

"Ihteyaat lazam yeh hai kai kavay ki tamam iqsaam hatta kai zaagh (pahari kavah) sai bhee ijtenaab kiyah jayeh. inkai alawah doosray tamaam parinday maslan Murgh, Kabutar aur Chiryah yahah tak kai Shutarmurgh aur MOHR bhee HALAAL hai"

"As an obligatory precaution, one should refrain from eating meat of all types of crows. Other birds like the hens, the pigeons, the sparrows including the ostrich and the PEACOCK are HALAAL to eat..." (Pg 490, English Version of Tawsee)

Aima (as)

"Imam Baqir  nai farmayah : " Khargosh aur MOHR ka kaanah jaiz nahee hai"

"It is not allowed to eat a Rabbit and a PEACOCK "

Man La Ya darul faqih, Volume 3, Hadees No 4197

Agha Sistani has made Halaal something that Prophet Muhammed (SAW) made Haraam.

Who shall we believe ?

A mujtahid or Imam's (as) ....

Edited by jang

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(salam)

brother you have not understood anything yet i am afraid, you give only views but what about evidence to back it up.

If taqleed to a fallible were not permissible then Imam Ali (A.S.) would not have had need for deputies throughout his caliphate.

did the 4 wakils ever ask people to do their taqleed ?

did they publish their tawzee ?

did they call themselves wali-al-amar ?

They had to judge things based upon their knowledge of Qur'an, the Sunnah of Muhammad (S.A.W.) and the sunnah of Ali ibn Abi Talib (A.S.). Imam Zaman (A.S.) would not have appointed deputies during the Lesser Occultation

the real followers of the Imam's (as) followed the narration of the Imam's (as) not people's own opinions.

their is a great difference.

Both Shaykhul Islam Murtada Ansari and Shaykh Saduq quote the narration given from Imam Zaman (A.S.) as narrated by Ishaq ibn Yacub that, "As to the eventualities, you should refer regarding them to those who are narrators of our traditions, since they are my testament unto you, and I am God's

testament."

you need to understand the difference between a Narrator and a mujtahid ....

the Imam's (as) selected certain personalities to narrate their hadees, not for people to start passing their own judgements on things.

Also, Allah (S.W.T.) says in Qur'an, "We verily sent our Mesengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance, that mankind may uphold justice." Surah 57:25 - How can justice be maintained if there are not a group of people who know how to maintain justice? On the basis of reason, not all people will know how to maintain justice because if it were so then all people would accept "La illaha illallah Muhammadan Rasoolullah".

again giving ayat without tafseer of it ? justice is only upholded with our Imam (as) .

bro instead of presenting theories, please present proof from Quran and hadees. Allah (SWT) has never allowed any non-masoom to change or to give their opinions.

this is the very argument we present forward against sunnies, that we only obey those who Allah chooses, the same applies to shia's aswell.

You tell me who to follow ?

who is right ?

Agha Khoi - Maslah/Rule No : 2633 pg 391

"Mohr aur kavay ki mukhtalif iqsaam haraam hai"

"A Peacock and the different types of Crow are haraam"

Agha Sistani - Maslah/Rule No : 2699, pg 398

"Ihteyaat lazam yeh hai kai kavay ki tamam iqsaam hatta kai zaagh (pahari kavah) sai bhee ijtenaab kiyah jayeh. inkai alawah doosray tamaam parinday maslan Murgh, Kabutar aur Chiryah yahah tak kai Shutarmurgh aur MOHR bhee HALAAL hai"

"As an obligatory precaution, one should refrain from eating meat of all types of crows. Other birds like the hens, the pigeons, the sparrows including the ostrich and the PEACOCK are HALAAL to eat..." (Pg 490, English Version of Tawsee)

Aima (as)

"Imam Baqir  nai farmayah : " Khargosh aur MOHR ka kaanah jaiz nahee hai"

"It is not allowed to eat a Rabbit and a PEACOCK "

Man La Ya darul faqih, Volume 3, Hadees No 4197

Agha Sistani has made Halaal something that Prophet Muhammed (SAW) made Haraam.

Who shall we believe ?

A mujtahid or Imam's (as) ....

Wa Salaam,

Akhi, no one can go off hadiths and Qur'an alone. No one except Masoom. A person must understand those verses which are abrogated as well as those traditions which have been abrogated. When a report was narrated was the narrator sound in belief or a heretic? Was the Prophet (S.A.W.) or the Imam (A.S.) speaking under taqiyya? What other conditions surrounded it? How are you going to function as a Muslim without guidance? Do you have contact with Sahib uz-Zaman (A.S.)? If not, then how do you address your obligations? if you are a faqih then I back off but if you are not a faqih then how do you propose the average person address their obligations as a Muslim?

For example, is marijuana halal or haraam? Did the Prophet (S.A.W.) or the Aimmah (A.S.) specifically address marijuana? Did Qur'an Kareem address marijuana? The Qur'an and Aimmah (A.S.) address intoxicants but what about marijuana? What if a person does not get "high" off of marijuana can you deal with it or not? Find a hadith for that? You won't. Reason will have to get you through this one. On top of that, what if the marijuana is used as a tea? Or eaten? Qur'an and hadiths don't address that specifically. What about out of space travel? Soon, Muslim countries will begin sending astronauts out of space. Does fiqh stop with our stratosphere? Or does fiqh pertain to wherever men go? Do you tell the astronauts to not make salat since the Qur'an and Aimmah (A.S.) did not address or are there certain principles of jurisprudence which would include reason that would allow one to come to conclusion? What about places such as Alaska where the sun can be up for up to 18 hours? How do you deal with that?

The tradition you narrated from Imam Baqir, is it a sound hadith or weak? What is the isnad? The key is does the hadith agree with Qur'an? A peacock neither glides nor flies nor is it a hunting bird. It's egg is like that of a chicken and it eats the same type of food as a chicken. It does not have talons but feet like a hen or a rooster. In fact, it is a pheasant and belongs to the same family as a duck or geese or quail. Therefore, I feel comfortable with Agha Seestani's (A.S.) ruling that it is halal. True hadith never go against Qur'an.

The marjaa will only disagree on typically 35 to 50 items in their risalah but when you consider the risalahs are typically over 2700 items that is minute. And they don't disagree with the major stuff but the minute points such as the peacock issue and a few others. These are not theories but facts. How many points do you disagree with them on? Even if you say 300 items then that still means approximately 90% of the verdicts agree. But the number will be closer to 30 - 50 items. Either way, how wide would the margin be without taqleed?

When looking at the wakils, they did not have to ask the people to give them taqleed as it was understood that the people were to come to them for guidance. Even before the Occultation, the Imams (A.S.) authorized various persons to administer jurisprudence as well as narrate hadiths. I know the difference. You only have to look at Hisham ibn Hakam (R.A.) as an example. Imam Sadiq (A.S.) made people go to Hisham (R.A.) because he was thoroughly grounded in deen. Since we are quoting from Al-Kafi, then please read Tradition 12 from the Book of Reason & Ignorance. In this tradition, Imam Musa ibn Jafar (A.S.) talks about the importance of using reason and the importance of reason to religion. Now, where am I going with this? Refer back to the previous questions I asked about how would one perform their Islamic obligations out of space or in Alaska if careful, diligent, and prudent reasoning is not applied. Not qiyas but reasoning as embellished in the Prophet (S.A.W.) and the Aimmah (A.S.). Then think about Imam Musa's (A.S.) instruction to Hisham ibn Hakam (A.S.).

Lastly, you should know that various terms though specifically intended for the Prophet (S.A.W.) or the Aimmah (A.S.) can also include the ummah in general. For example, Abdullah ibn Abbas has been quoted in several hadith as saying, "Wherever you read the verses, "O you who believe", it is referring to Ali ibn Abu Talib". An example would be Surah 5.90: "O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful." Can this only mean Imam Ali (A.S.) is forbidden from intoxicants and games of chance or does it apply to the community at large, both believers and disbelievers. I'll leave the tafsir to any who may want to check it out.

By the way, the Taudhihul Masae'l is a standard framework which has been around for centuries. To some it up, for the most part it is a cut and paste (for lack of a better word) and only in perhaps 35 to 50 items are there variances in views.

Wa Salaam,

Djibril

Edited by Bro.Djibril

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salam YA ALI MADAD

i'am afraid to say that the issue of uslooi and akhbari is not a "black and white" issue, its alot more complicated. yes there is evidence given from both sides so i dont see the argument. of my akhbari brothers, if u requre evidence for taqleed then u will first need to understand the principle of taqleed and its concept first before drawing any conclusions.

you see brother ans sisters, the differences are there but its alo deeper then that. we cant accuse each other on those basis.

if anyone does want any evidence (eg hadith) then plzz PM me. and i shall try my best to provide what i can for both the usooli and akhbari's.

ws YA ALI MADAD

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what funny replies im getting ..

brother djibril, a long reply but no answer to my question ...

who is right from Agha sistani or Agha Khoi ?

is a peacock halaal or haraam ?

according to you they have read well, and no almost everything in shariyah.

forget talking about space yet, these people are having difficulty on a Peacock ?

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what funny replies im getting ..

brother djibril, a long reply but no answer to my question ...

who is right from Agha sistani or Agha Khoi ?

is a peacock halaal or haraam ?

according to you they have read well, and no almost everything in shariyah.

forget talking about space yet, these people are having difficulty on a Peacock ?

Wa Salaam,

I believe I answered your post because a peacock neither glides nor flies. It runs. It has feet like a hen but belongs to the pheasant family which includes duck and quail. The food it eats is no nastier than what a chicken eats. Therefore, I would have to agree with Agha Seestani. However, while you are picking at the differences between their rulings on a peacock how do you think 100 million Ithna Asharis around the world would have ruled? Again, out of 2800 rulings and they disagree on maybe 50, that's remarkable. Now, that hadith you referred us to from Shaykh Ansari on the authority of Imam Baqir (A.S.) in what context was it transmitted? Is it a sound narration? The other thing to keep in mind is how was the question posed to Agha Khu'i? And how would you have ruled since you have Qur'an and Sunnah? But that's a peacock. How do they view maintaining your wife and holding up to your responsibilites? This issue of to taqleed or not to taqleed is simple. Either you do or you don't. If you don't then surely, your scholasticism is such that you can understand the necessity for some people to give taqleed even if you don't give it.

Wa Salaam,

Djibril

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This is getting silly.

Jhang - I myself do not do Taqlid - However, i find your stubborness quite disturbing. If you had read Br DJ's reply, maybe you would've understood that a Mujthahid can aquire a certain level of knowledge which enables him to interpret Islam at the mercy of that Ilm - In accordance with the Qur'an and traditions of the Aimmah (as).

Your question was answered, however, you were trying to decieve others by portraying those rulings as contradictory, when infact they were two paths of the same road - metaphorically :).

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