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Imam Ali(as) vs. 3 Caliphs(ra)

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Arsal

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pak - your whole theory of abu bakr being elected by Rasool pbuh because he lead prayer is totally flawed.

From that theory, we could derive that Rasool pbuh replaced himself with Ali (as) as a prophet when he left him in charge on several occasions Asatghfirullah :!!!:

Well If u say about the noination of Prophet pbuh then Prophet did trust many times on ABu Bakar (ra) ..as compared to ALi (ra)

The greatest thing is to pray and u say that it is flawd......

I always say that showing is higher then saying...

Prophet pbuh show that Abu Bakar (ra) is my wise ....

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Did Bibi Fatima (as) die a kafir (nozibillah) because she didn’t recognize Abu Bakr as the caliph of her time when he 'rightly' was?

ws

Its only Imagines from ur side...

U don't see the reality which r in our books abt Hazrat FAtima (ra) in the time of ABu BAkar (ra) Govt

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(salam)

Did Bibi Fatima (as) die a kafir (nozibillah) because she didn’t recognize Abu Bakr as the caliph of her time when he 'rightly' was?  

ws

Its only Imagines from ur side...

U don't see the reality which r in our books abt Hazrat FAtima (ra) in the time of ABu BAkar (ra) Govt

I’m certain and very sure that Sahih Bukhari is not our book and it says the she died while upset and angry with the supposedly "Caliph of her time".

Just two hadith out of many.

Volume 8, Book 80, Number 718

Narrated 'Aisha:

Fatima and Al 'Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah's Apostle and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them, " I have heard from Allah's Apostle saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity, but the family of Muhammad may take their provisions from this property." Abu Bakr added, "By Allah, I will not leave the procedure I saw Allah's Apostle following during his lifetime concerning this property." Therefore Fatima left Abu Bakr and did not speak to him till she died.

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

She used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah's Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, "I will not leave anything Allah's Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet's tradition, then I would go astray." (Later on) Umar gave the Prophet's property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to 'Ali and 'Abbas, but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, "These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah's Apostle used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler." (Az-Zuhrl said, "They have been managed in this way till today.")

So if Abu Bakr was the "rightful Caliph" and the daughter of the Holy Prophet pbuh rejected and died without giving Bayyat to the 'Caliph of her time', does that mean she died a death of Jahilliya (nozibillah)?

ws

Edited by kanez-e-Zahra
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Its in ur books (Haq-ul-YAqeen Pgae# 871-872)

Alama Baqil Majlisi writes in explaination of Hayat-ul-Quloob PArt

2 Chapter 51 that "Allah order prophet pbuh to praise SAhaba (Abu Bakar,

Umar and Usman) ispite of their Munafiqat..

Narrated in TAqreeb-ul-Muarif, a slave asked from Imam Ali bin Hussain

that Tell me about ABu BAkar and Umar ?? Imam replied that both were

Kafir Haq-ul-Yaqeen Page 243

All shia in the Forum wrote them a munafiq and it is in ur books that

Imams had declared them KAfir....

U r right not to recognize dignity of Great SAhaba (ra) as ur book show such a false commentry.

Reading these my heart is not willing to reply u

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Lol hahahahaha Check this out muslims :-

Its in ur books (Haq-ul-YAqeen Pgae# 871-872)

Alama Baqil Majlisi writes in explaination of Hayat-ul-Quloob PArt

2 Chapter 51 that "Allah order prophet  to praise SAhaba (Abu Bakar,

Umar and Usman) ispite of their Munafiqat..

So it proves that they were infact Munafiqs? :D hahahahah you've made a fool of yourself..

Narrated in TAqreeb-ul-Muarif, a slave asked from Imam Ali bin Hussain

that Tell me about ABu BAkar and Umar ?? Imam replied that both were

Kafir Haq-ul-Yaqeen Page 243

Look . Do you love your Prophet(and His Ahlay Bayt) more or your Sahabas?

All shia in the Forum wrote them a munafiq and it is in ur books that

Imams had declared them KAfir....

U r right not to recognize dignity of Great SAhaba  as ur book show such a false commentry.

Reading these my heart is not willing to reply u

What is the difference b/w munafiqs and kafirs man?

The FADAK case u mentioned... Plz start a new topic

Its mine request

You can start it yourself.

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pak

Why are you worried about things inside our books?

Shouldnt you be more worried about things in your books which validate our(shias) claim to be truth?

Refer to above hadith

Dear I am not worrid

ur books completely opposing the great age of Prophet.. NO such event happened in the life of Prophet that some one said great SAhaba bad and ur books are doing so.

I can only say them wrong

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ur books completely opposing the great age of Prophet.. NO such event happened in the life of Prophet that some one said great SAhaba bad and ur books are doing so.

I can only say them wrong

It seems as if you do not know the basics of having an argument. In order to convince an audience you must convince them of what YOU believe from THEIR sources. Any one can make stupid claims saying that shia books are wrong but that is not going to help your cause. We can equally say the same about your books. If you want to prove us wrong, prove the legitimacy of the sheikhain as khulfah from OUR sources. Just like we can disprove their legitimacy from YOUR sources.

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The FADAK case u mentioned... Plz start a new topic

Actually this isn't off topic. You said we do not see the reality about Bibi Fatima (as) during Abu Bakr's government. The fact is that the issue of Fadak was the only major and significant event that took place in the short time during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr while Bibi Fatima was alive for 70-90 days after the death of the Holy Prophet pbuh and before she was brutally killed by certain 'great Sahaba' of her father. The incident of Fadak was not only about a piece of land but symbolically it represented a revolution and the questioning of the illegal government established at Saqifa and those that governed it.

Ibn Abi Al-Haded a Sunni in his book Sharh Nahjul Balagha, vol. 16 and Abu Bakr Ahmed Bin Abdul Aziz Jauhari in his Kitabus Saqifa both record Bibi Fatima's (as) speech in Abu Bakr's court, and this IS the reality in your books about Lady Fatima (as) in the time of Abu Bakr's Caliphate. This speech is recorded in over 10 Sunni books. I'll mention only a few paragraphs from that speech, for full speech refer to the books mentioned.

“…. you become enraged against the virtuous and started taking to your homes what property belonged to others, though the Apostle had not yet be lowered into the grave. You made an excuse of fearful disturbance though you were yourself involved in the disturbance…”.

"...You only waited for the stability of your usurped caliphate and then started kindling fires. You began to shed spark of innovation and perfidity. You began blowing out the lights of Allah; stamping out the traditions of his Messenger…."

“.....whereto did they move it from the position of the mission, the bases of prophet hood and the place of decent of Gabriel, who is aware of life and religion’s affairs? That was the great loss, What did they deny from Abul Hassan? Yes they denied the beating of his sword, his forcefulness, his strict punishing and his venturing for the sake of Allah….”

"….It appears that you have taken to restful life. You are reposing after removing the Real successor. The creed, which had gone down your throat, you have vomited out. So even if you and all men in this world revert to heathenism it makes no difference, for Allah is self Sufficient and Praiseworthy"

"I know that you will not help me. But since there is indignation and grief in my heart, i preferred to express it rather then hide it. I have made my position explicit so that you may not have any excuse to make in the matter on the Day of Judgment. You are free to take my share forcibly, usurp it, but you will be liable to eternal curses and the wrath of Great Allah Who is severe in his punishment.."

"...that today my right has been taken away and you kept quite; then be prepared for a severing sword against you and a prevailing humiliation and despotic rule by the tyrants who will rape your treasuries and devour the product of your labor..."

Now:

-If Abu Bakr was the rightful Caliph and according to the hadith and her speeches the daughter of the Holy Prophet pbuh rejected her rightful caliph of her time and died without giving Bayyat to him then according to the hadith accepted by both sides, that will mean she died the death of the Age of Ignorance (nawzobillah)...is this true? Do you dare to say that she died a Kafir (nawzobillah)...??

-If Abu Bakr was not the Caliph of her time, and she died without giving Bayyat and recognising anyone else as her rightful Caliph that will still mean that she died the death of the Age of Ignorance (nawzobillah)....is this true?? Do you dare to say that she died a Kafir (nawzobillah)...??

- If she did not die the death of the Age of Ignorance, nor did she give Bayyat to Abu Bakr then she must have given Bayyat and recognised her real and RIGHTFUL caliph and Imam, and this was surely the case for that Caliph/Imam was no one but Imam Ali (as) and she died in his allengiance !!

ws

Edited by kanez-e-Zahra
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No It shows ur books are wrong.. and opposing holy life of Prophet

Prophet(sal) doesn't have to defend for whatever your damned wannabe sahabas did. The Real Sahabas , however made Prophet(sal) proud of himself...

Wa-Salaam

We beleive that real SAhaba (ra) was one whom u don't want to obey

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no ones denies the merits of hazrat Ali reported in sunni hadiths. we just dont exagerate his status many other people were given special names and titles because of their devotion. Dont go astray shia follow islam the way of the sunnah.

Thanx dear u study our books wth deep.

But as dignity of Ali (ra) is proved alos dignity of Abu BAkar (ra) ,Umar (ra) and Usman (ra) etc is proved so u needed to understand realities

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(salam)

No It shows ur books are wrong.. and opposing holy life of Prophet

Prophet(sal) doesn't have to defend for whatever your damned wannabe sahabas did. The Real Sahabas , however made Prophet(sal) proud of himself...

Wa-Salaam

We beleive that real SAhaba (ra) was one whom u don't want to obey

So you admit that there were real and 'fake' Sahabas?

ws

P.S. You still haven't answered my question about Bibi Fatima (as) dying without Bayyat to the 'rightful' caliph of her time.

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So you admit that there were real and 'fake' Sahabas?

ws

P.S. You still haven't answered my question about Bibi Fatima (as) dying without Bayyat to the 'rightful' caliph of her time.

We have proof that Imam Ali (ra) did Bayat of Abu Bakar so Fatima (ra) must have it

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So you admit that there were real and 'fake' Sahabas?

ws

P.S. You still haven't answered my question about Bibi Fatima (as)  dying without Bayyat to the 'rightful' caliph of her time.

We have proof that Imam Ali (ra) did Bayat of Abu Bakar so Fatima (ra) must have it

Fatima must have what?

After Rasool pbuh passed on, Fatima (as) cursed them two for the remainder of her life!

Fatima NEVER gave Bayah to abu bakr. Get your facts straight.

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Prophet(sal) doesn't have to defend for whatever your damned wannabe sahabas did. The Real Sahabas , however made Prophet(sal) proud of himself...

Wa-Salaam

There are dozens of Hadiths about dignity of ABu BAkar (ra) ,Umar (ra) and Usman (ra)

Is this not show that they were real.

They who r defended by Allah... CAn u say them not real

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So you admit that there were real and 'fake' Sahabas?

ws

P.S. You still haven't answered my question about Bibi Fatima (as)  dying without Bayyat to the 'rightful' caliph of her time.

We have proof that Imam Ali (ra) did Bayat of Abu Bakar so Fatima (ra) must have it

Fatima must have what?

After Rasool pbuh passed on, Fatima (as) cursed them two for the remainder of her life!

Fatima NEVER gave Bayah to abu bakr. Get your facts straight.

I just forward a sense that If Ali (ra) did BAyat for ABu BAkar (ra) then Why FAtima didn't hence u became wrong to ur statement that FAtima always curse Abu Bakar

ALi (ra) always respect ABu BAkar (ra) as I mentioned in other post wth same topic the why his wife can't do so

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According to Sunnis, Ali (as) didn't give the alleged bayah to abu bakr until Fatima (as) was martyred - What does that tell you?

then Why FAtima didn't hence u became wrong to ur statement that FAtima always curse Abu Bakar

After narrating this affair in detail, Abu Muhammad Abdullah Bin Qutayba says that Ali did not swear allegiance and returned home. Later Abu Bakr and Umar went to Fatima's house to placate her and to seek her pardon. She said: "Allah be my witness that you two have offended me. In every prayer I curse you and will continue cursing you until I see my father and complain against you."

http://www.al-islam.org/peshawar/7.5.html

Source: Peshawar Nights.

Edited by Baatil Ka Kaatil
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(salam)

I just forward a sense that If Ali did BAyat for ABu BAkar then Why FAtima didn't hence u became wrong to ur statement that FAtima always curse Abu Bakar

ALi always respect ABu BAkar as I mentioned in other post wth same topic the why his wife can't do so

That’s a very dangerous method of concluding things bro. pak. You can’t just assume things. According to your sources Imam Ali (as) gave bayyat to Abu Bakr after 6 months, by which time Bibi Fatima (as) had been killed and had joined her father to complain of her usurpers and those that killed her unborn son. :cry:

"I know that you will not help me. But since there is indignation and grief in my heart, i preferred to express it rather then hide it. I have made my position explicit so that you may not have any excuse to make in the matter on the Day of Judgment. You are free to take my share forcibly, usurp it, but you will be liable to eternal curses and the wrath of Great Allah Who is severe in his punishment.."

Does this sound like a Lady who was pleased with her usurpers, and therefore though he may deserve respect. By the way respect for what? stamping on the religion revealed to her father and his Sunna, or maybe for the disrespect, humiliation, grief he caused her by calling her a lair ? <_<

ws

Edited by kanez-e-Zahra
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We have proof that Imam Ali  did Bayat of Abu Bakar so Fatima  must have it

What do you mean "Fatima must have it"? She never gave bayah to Abu Bakr. And about Imam Ali giving "Bayah" to Abu Bakr does not prove the legitimacy of Abu Bakr's khilafah since the imam never accepted the usurper as a the khalifah of muslimeen but only as a worldly leader. Just like Imam Hassan (as) accepted Muawiyah (la) as a wordly leader.

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We have proof that Imam Ali  did Bayat of Abu Bakar so Fatima  must have it

What do you mean "Fatima must have it"? She never gave bayah to Abu Bakr. And about Imam Ali giving "Bayah" to Abu Bakr does not prove the legitimacy of Abu Bakr's khilafah since the imam never accepted the usurper as a the khalifah of muslimeen but only as a worldly leader. Just like Imam Hassan (as) accepted Muawiyah (la) as a wordly leader.

Whatever u say.... Ali had no hate wth Abu Bakar and even Fatima was not so angry as u mentioned wth Abu Bakar.....

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What do you mean "Fatima must have it"? She never gave bayah to Abu Bakr. And about Imam Ali giving "Bayah" to Abu Bakr does not prove the legitimacy of Abu Bakr's khilafah since the imam never accepted the usurper as a the khalifah of muslimeen but only as a worldly leader. Just like Imam Hassan  accepted Muawiyah (la) as a wordly leader.

Ali accepted Abu Bakr's authority, since he didn't rebel against him; on the contrary he advised Omar, and Abu Bakr both. By default, if you don't rebel, you accept.

Since he didn't rebel against them or slander them, who are you to do any different?

-MZA

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Ali accepted Abu Bakr's authority, since he didn't rebel against him; on the contrary he advised Omar, and Abu Bakr both. By default, if you don't rebel, you accept.

Since he didn't rebel against them or slander them, who are you to do any different?

Now i see why this man has a prob with me .. he is a sunni that's why.. :rolleyes:

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