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In the Name of God بسم الله

Iraq: Clerical Rule or No?

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Guest abaleada
Posted

(bismillah)

(salam)

Inshallah I am not wrong in my use of these terms. By "1st-generation", I mean someone who came over here in his or her own lifetime. By "2nd-generation", I mean someone whose parents came the US. If your grandparents came over, please use the "2nd-Generation" option and specify your situation in your post. "Ex-pat" is someone who does not live in Iraq. I assumed that Iraqis are Muslims - please specify in your post if you are not. There aren't enough options to differentiate between Muslim and non-Muslim, Shi`ah and Sunni on this poll.

As usual, I have placed an option for non-participants.

Please do explain your reasons for your answer. I am requesting that people not paste in entire articles during their explanations if possible, but to quote what is directly relevant. Be sure to include a reference and link, or at least a link.

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  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

(bismillah)

Ehhh...you're joking right??

No I’m not, are you seriously telling me that you don't mind living under a rule similar to Wilayat AlFaqeeh? Keeping In mind that Shia style law will be enforced by the Government over all ethnicities and religious minorities including your own, would you really like that?

I personally don’t believe a true Islamic state can be achieved during the time of the occultation of the Awaited Guide and Saviour.

(salam)

Edited by NoorFatima
Guest abaleada
Posted

(bismillah)

(salam)

MZA and others, do check your replies ("preview") before posting, and try to edify your postings with substance instead of putting in a few words before hitting enter. I am still pondering a reply. I can say so far that I feel myself to be religiously conservative and base my reasoning for my preference of clerical rule on that. Since Noor Fatimah is against clerical rule, I do want to see your perspective and reasoning.

Posted (edited)
No I’m not, are you seriously telling me that you don't mind living under a rule similar to Wilayat AlFaqeeh? Keeping In mind that Shia style law will be enforced by the Government over all ethnicities and religious minorities including your own, would you really like that?

I am not bothered by living under a Jafari-based system, as long as Sunnis are given the right to abide by their own fiqh.

Most Sunnis wouldn't mind living under a Shia ruler, as long as he is just and allows them to practice the Sunni madhabs if they so choose.

I have no qualms about giving bay'ah to a Shia authority, provided he is reasonable and just. I have no problem even in serving and protecting such a system.

-MZA

Edited by ultra-muslim
Guest abaleada
Posted
No I’m not, are you seriously telling me that you don't mind living under a rule similar to Wilayat AlFaqeeh? Keeping In mind that Shia style law will be enforced by the Government over all ethnicities and religious minorities including your own, would you really like that?

I am not bothered by living under a Jafari-based system, as long as Sunnis are given the right to abide by their own fiqh.

Most Sunnis wouldn't mind living under a Shia ruler, as long as he is just and allows them to practice the Sunni madhabs if they so choose.

I have no qualms about giving bay'ah to a Shia authority, provided he is reasonable and just. I have no problem even in serving and protecting such a system.

-MZA

(bismillah)

(salam)

As far as I can tell, brother, you are exceptional - both you an Salmany - in your support of the Shi`ah `ulama.

I do have a question for you guys as long as both of you are around. My husband, an Iraqi whose vote would be for rule of the `ulama, wants to know who is in the gvernment now and how many of them are Shi`ah (please alo point out among the Shi`ah the collaborators).

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

Beautiful and reasonable words, but I do wonder if many Sunnis would agree to this, I think most Iraqi Sunnis wouldn't mind, but I'm afraid that fanatics west of the border won't leave us alone, nor will they let be at peace (my opinion anyway) - but seriously though, looking at Iran currently, and how Mujtahids are being antagonized, I would hate to see the same thing happening in Iraq since being in office invites heavy criticism from those around you, and last thing I want is someone shoving religion down my throat.

I'm religious and conservative right now, and I live (as most brothers and sisters in this forum) under a western style system (it's far from perfect - morally speaking) but at least my ideas are respected, I honestly don't think that would be the case under an "Islamic rule" because over time, it will turn into a dictatorship.

The way Iraq is heading currently, I'm praying that everyone will be able to voice what they think and demand what they want openly without being locked up (call it wishful thinking if you like, but I'm very optimistic) - if in the future, all Iraqis, be it Sunnis or Shias agree to a clerical rule, or elect a Man of Faith into the presidency, that I would support their choice.

(salam)

Guest abaleada
Posted
I do have a question for you guys as long as both of you are around. My husband, an Iraqi whose vote would be for rule of the `ulama, wants to know who is in the government now and how many of them are Shi`ah (please also point out among the Shi`ah the collaborators).

Here is a list in case it would help. Considering how much the virus and anti-virus software have eaten my computer, I am surprised that I was able to see Arabic text. This is going to be a rough paste, so I do apologise.

الرئاسة التنفيذية للحكومة العراقية الانتقالية

Executive of the Iraqi Interim Government

1

President

Sheik Ghazi al-Yawwer

 

رئيس الجمهورية

1

2

Deputy President

Dr. Ebrahim Jaafari al-Eshaiker

 

نائب الرئيس

2

3

Deputy President

Dr. Rowsch Shaways

 

نائب الرئيس

3

وزراء الحكومة العراقية الانتقالية

Cabinet of the Iraqi Interim Government

No.

Ministry

Minister

الوزير

الوزارة

ت

1

Prime Minister

Dr. Ayad Allawi

الدكتور اياد علاوي

رئيس الوزراء

1

2

Deputy PM, Nat’l Security Affairs

Dr. Barham Salih

الدكتور برهـام صالح

نائب رئيس الوزراء لشؤون الامنه الوطني

2

3

Ministry of Agriculture

Dr. Sawsan Ali Magid al-Sharifi

الدتورة سوسن علي ماجد الشريفي

وزارة الزراعة

3

4

Ministry of Communication

Dr. Mohammad Ali al-Hakim

الدكتور محمد علي الحكيم

وزارة الإتصالات

4

5

Ministry of Construction & Housing

Dr. Omar al-Farouq Salim al-Damluji

الدكتور عمر الفاروق سليم الدملوجي

وزارة الإسكان

5

6

Ministry of Culture

Mr. Mufid Muhammad Juwad al-Jaza'iri

السيد مفيد محمد جواد الجزائري

وزارة الثقافة

6

7

Ministry of Defense

Mr. Hazem Sha’alan

السيد حازم شعلان

وزارة الدفاع

7

8

Ministry of Education

Dr. Sami al-Mudhaffar

الدكتور سامي المظفر

وزارة التربية

8

9

Ministry of Electricity

Dr. Aiham Alsammarae

د. أيهم السامرائي

وزارة الكهرباء

9

10

Ministry of Environment

Ms. Mishkat Moumin

 

وزارة البيـئة

10

11

Ministry of Displacement and Migration

Ms. Pascale Isho Warda

السيدة باسكال ايشو ورده

وزارة المغتربين والمهاجرين

11

12

Ministry of Finance

Dr. Adil Abdul Mahdi

الدكتور عادل عبد المهدي

وزارة المالية

12

13

Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Mr. Hoshiyar Mahmud Muhammad al-Zibari

السيد هوشيار محمود محمد الزيباري

وزارة الخارجية

13

14

Ministry of Health

Dr. Ala'din Abdul Sahib Alwan

الدكتور علاء الدين عبد الصاحب علوان

وزارة الصحة

14

15

Ministry of Higher Education

Dr. Taher Khalaf Jabur al-Bakaa

الدكتور طاهر خلف جبر البكاء

وزارة التعليم العالي

15

16

Ministry of Human Rights

Dr. Baktiar Amin

الدكتور بختيار أمين

وزارة حقوق الإنسان

16

17

Ministry of Industry & Minerals

Dr. Hachem M. Al-Hassani

الدكتور هاشم الحسني

وزارة الصناعة والمعادن

17

18

Ministry of Interior

Mr. Falah al-Nakib

السيد فلاح النقيب

وزارة الداخلية

18

19

Ministry of Water Resources

Dr. Latif Rashid

الدكتور عبد الطيف رشيد

وزارة الرّي

19

20

Ministry of Justice

Dr. Mailk Dohan al-Hassan

الدكتور مالك دوهان الحسني

وزارة العدل

20

21

Ministry of Labor & Social Affairs

Ms. Leyla Abdul Latif

السيـدة ليــلى عبد اللطيف

وزارة العمل والشوؤن الإجتماعية

21

22

Ministry of Oil

Mr. Thamir Abbas Ghadban

السيد ثامر عباس غضبان

وزارة النفط

22

23

Ministry of Planning

Dr. Mehdi al-Hafidh

الدكتور مهدي الحافظ

وزارة التخطيط

23

24

Ministry of Public Works

Mrs. Nasreen Mustafa Sadiq Barwari

السيدة نسرين مصطفى صادق برواري

وزارة الأشغال العامة

24

25

Ministry of Science & Technology

Rashad Omar Mindan

السيد رشاد عمر منـدان

وزارة العلوم والتكنولوجيا

25

26

Ministry of Trade

Mr. Mohammed al-Jibouri

السيد محمد الجبوري

وزارة التجارة

26

27

Ministry of Transportation

Mr. Louay Hatem Sultan al-Erris

السيد لؤي حاتم سلطان العرس

وزارة النقل

27

28

Ministry of Youth & Sports

Ali Fa’iq al-Ghabban

السيد علي فائق الغبّان

وزارة الشباب والرياضة

28

29

Minister of State, Provinces

Judge Wael Abdulatif

القاضي وائل عبد اللطيف

وزير الدولة لشؤون المحافظات

29

30

Minister of State, Women

Ms. Narmin Othman

السيدة نرمين عثمان

وزير الدولة لشؤون المرأة

30

31

Minister of State

Dr. Kasim Daoud

الدكتور قاسم داود

وزير الدولة

31

32

Minister of State

Dr. Mamu Farham Othman Pirali

الدكتور مامو فرهام عثمان بيرالي

وزير الدولة

32

33

Minister of State

Mr. Adnan al-Janabi

السيد عدنان الجنابي

وزير الدولة

33

Posted (edited)
As far as I can tell, brother, you are exceptional - both you an Salmany - in your support of the Shi`ah `ulama.

I do have a question for you guys as long as both of you are around. My husband, an Iraqi whose vote would be for rule of the `ulama, wants to know who is in the gvernment now and how many of them are Shi`ah (please alo point out among the Shi`ah the collaborators).

The Iraqi Sunnis really aren't as bad as people think; we aren't all from Tikrit. Nobody in my family ever registered with the Baath. NOT EVEN ONE! Most of us even go on ziyara to the Imams (as). My grandfather used to go weekly to Imam al-Kadhim. And he was Sunni as the come!

I do have a question for you guys as long as both of you are around. My husband, an Iraqi whose vote would be for rule of the `ulama, wants to know who is in the gvernment now and how many of them are Shi`ah (please alo point out among the Shi`ah the collaborators).

The Shia in the government:

Prime Minister Iyad Allawi: Born in 1945; a U.S.-backed Shiite Muslim with military and CIA connections. His power base, the Iraqi National Accord, made up largely of former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party and former military men, stresses secularism and counts Sunnis and Shiites among its members. A neurologist, he earned a master of science in medicine and a doctorate in medicine from London University.

Vice President Ibrahim al-Jaafari: Born in 1947; a leader of the Shiite Dawa Party.

Finance Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi: Born in 1942; French-educated son of a respected Shiite cleric who was a minister under Iraq's pre-Hussein monarchy. He is a senior official of the powerful Shiite Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

Justice Minister Malik Dohan al-Hassan: Born in 1920 in Hilla; culture minister in the mid-1960s and a political prisoner under Hussein. As president of Iraq's Lawyers Union after Hussein's fall, he had lodged early protests about the conditions under which the U.S.-led occupation administration was holding prisoners and about the prisoners' lack of legal defense.

Ministry of Communication

Dr. Mohammad Ali al-Hakim

الدكتور محمد علي الحكيم

وزارة الإتصالات

Ministry of Health

Dr. Ala'din Abdul Sahib Alwan

الدكتور علاء الدين عبد الصاحب علوان

وزارة الصحة

Ministry of Planning

Dr. Mehdi al-Hafidh

الدكتور مهدي الحافظ

وزارة التخطيط

Minister of State

Dr. Kasim Daoud

الدكتور قاسم داود

وزير الدولة

There may be more, but I am unsure.

They are all traitors! All of them, including the Sunnis and Kurds. But Ibrahim Jafari makes me extra-sick, since he is betraying those Muslims who died fighting Saddam inorder to create an non-sectarian Islamic state. Ayatullah Baqir as-Sadr worked heavily with Ikhwan al-Muslimin towards this goal! Dr. Kassim Daoud was my father's student in college; he says he is an idiot and he was a Baathi. He also said that if he had a daughter recently he would name her Conodleeza Rice :Hijabi: .

All traitors.

-MZA

Edited by ultra-muslim
  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

They are all traitors! All of them, including the Sunnis and Kurds.

Leesh Ya 3enee? Who is going to jump start Iraq Ya jalbee? Ya3ni we have been fighting for years and years, fighting the British, Fighting Saddam and Fighting the Americans, in the end, we are left with a destroyed nation and a tyrant who places his foot on our necks.

Today, the new government went against American planning in re-stating members of the former Iraqi Army, like foot soldiers - so it isn't all bad, be a little patient and optimistic.

(salam)

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Selam alaycom,

I find it curious that muslims would have more faith in a non clerical government. If the clerics are not fit to rule, then how are they fit to follow/make taqlid of? If you feel they would be unjust rulers, how could they make just fatwas? Is it just wilayat al faqih you oppose, or any kind of islamic government? What are your opinions on 'shura' system for example?

Peace,

Um Ali

Posted
I find it curious that muslims would have more faith in a non clerical government.

Why would they have faith in a clerical government? All clerical governments during all times of history without exception have been known to be the worst kind of oppressive rulerships.

They are incompetent and not able to satisfy the needs of the population. They are often

If the clerics are not fit to rule, then how are they fit to follow/make taqlid of?

First of all, according to most of the holders of any type of clerical government, it is not possible to both hold the position of source of emulation and engage in other activities. So if they do hold such positions, they are contradicting themselves.

Nevertheless, there is no connection between rulership of the affairs of men and legal expertise.

s it just wilayat al faqih you oppose, or any kind of islamic government?

I don't believe in an "islamic government" at all. The only thing that you can do as a muslim politician is to derive some basic values to work on. Depending on what time you live in, you should do your best to make that rulership fit with those values as much as possible.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

I find it curious that muslims would have more faith in a non clerical government.

The problem isn’t simply that we “don’t have faith” in a clerical government; the thing is that we appose such a government since the function of the Mujtahid isn’t to rule over land and people, his function is to rule over the hearts, just as did Ahlul Albayte. Once a Mujtahid holds power, his objective and priorities change dramatically, and this is a plain fact illustrated by current reality.

Looking at Sayed Ali Khamanaei’s record of publishing books on History, Philosophy, Law, tradition, Irfan and faith; he lacks publications in all of these areas; even his risala was not published up until the early 90’s, while his followers claim that his Ijza’a was given to him in 1974 – The reason is quite simple, priority, his priorities change and focuses solely on rule, which is contradictory to his function.

If the clerics are not fit to rule, then how are they fit to follow/make taqlid of?

I think is this your mistaken notion, and there is absolutely no relations between extracting laws and ruling over people. Also, Many great Mujtahids are also against critical rule, ranging from the Great Ayatollah Al-Khoei to past great Mujtahids such as Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Al-Qumi – I personally think scholars will lose their respect and focus once they engage in politics and “rulership” – looking at Iran today, most of the scholars that are respected by the general public are those who have nothing to do with the government, or even affiliated to it.

it just wilayat al faqih you oppose, or any kind of islamic government?

I oppose any kind of "Islamic" government due to the mere fact that none will exist until the Awaited Imam returns, Lady Zaynab says: "No government in our name will rise except for that of our Qa'em" – and I truly believe that.

(salam)

  • Forum Administrators
Posted
If the clerics are not fit to rule, then how are they fit to follow/make taqlid of? If you feel they would be unjust rulers, how could they make just fatwas?

Precisely.

I think the Americans showed the inconsistency of their own position.

On the one hand they do not want clerical rule.

On the other hand they wanted Ayatollah Sistani's approval/agreement for their major decisions.

:blink:

  • Forum Administrators
Posted

Gord

The clerics are too inept to run a country.

I notice you have made 23 posts in the space of a couple of days.

Wow!

Are you too inept to hold down a job or undertake some serious study?

:P

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

According to my limited knowledge, if I had to take decision, then it goes in favour of Wilayat-e-Faqih.

A brother had been working on this project and you can find English Articles on Wilayat-e-Faqih here:

http://www.qaed.net/wilayah.php?id=home

Let me quote a little from the last article (which contains a part from one of my earlier post):

========================

An example of Democracy in Islam

========================

After reading quran, it's clear that Allah told prophet Muhammad (saww) to consult the people (shura) and then take the decision that he thinks appropiate (i.e. the final decision belongs to the leader).

[As a matter of fact, an infallible Imam even doesn't need the consultation to reach the correct decision. But it was only in order to show us (the fallible ones) of how to run the government.

So, I don't agree with those brothers who say that majority of people have the final decission]

===========================================

Can Comparison be made between governmental system

of Imam Ali(as) and Present Iranian System?

===========================================

Imam Ali(as) appointed the governers, who also ruled according to this law (i.e. final decission didn't went to the majority of people).

It was not only Imam Ali(as) in the center of State. But we can also look at the way of government in the different provinces (which were led by fallible governors)

For example, Egypt was a very big province at that time. Imam Ali(as) appointed Muhammad bin Abi Bakr. OK.

Question 1: Where has the democracy went in this case?

==========================================

Answer: Imam Ali(as) was infallible and had the right to

do so. Since no one is infallible today, so the Walih-Amr should be elected by the people.

==========================================

Question 2: The fallible governor (i.e. Muhammad bin Abi Bakr) appointed a lot of more leaders (e.g. of army, small towns and villages etc.). And the order was to obey to these directly appointed leaders.

So, where has the majority of people and democracy went in this case?

Wasn't it the Wiliyah, which was played in this case?

=========

Imam Ali(as) did give some advises to the governers before sending them. And afterwards, he wrote some letters and gave them the pieces of advises.

But as a whole, Imam Ali(as) left 99% of work of running the government on the Wilayah of those governers. And main thing remain the same i.e. he ordered them to take the suggestions (shura), but final decision belonged to the governers (similarly final decision belonged to the leaders, who were appointed by those governors).

In this whole process, people were entitled to give suggestions, but suggestions never meant final decision. All the things cannot be left on the majority of people and certainly the 100% concept of democracy is not an Islamic System.

Here is the hadith on the Wilayah of Ulama in the absence of Imam Mahdi(as) [similarly in the physical absence of Imams at some place during their lives]

Narration from Imam Ja'far Sadiq:

"They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism." Furu`u 'Al-Kafi, vol. 7, Tehran 1379, p. 412

Again you can see that majority of people are not given the Wilayah, but the Ulama are the one who are the heirs of Imams in their absence.

=======================

So, this is about the Wilayah of Ulama.

=======================

Bottomline, we have to believe that Imam Khaminei is true with mission of Imam Mahdi(as) . He may make mistakes in his final decision, but similarly is true in the final decision of collective people.

Firstly you must realise that Imams were infallible and they even didn't need any consultation. But what we see is this that Allah (swt) himself asking Prophet Muhammad (saww) to consult. And after consulting, take the final decision.

This consultation was not due to the reason that Imams(as) really needed any consultation from the fallible ones, but it was due to the reason to teach the humanity of running the government.

If it is not so, then we have to accept that (naudobillah), Allah ordered Prophet Muhammad (saww) to indulge in a useless act.

===================

Secondly , Qiyas is Haram in our Fiqh. But there is a very little difference in Qiyas and Ijtehaad. There are different definitions of Qiyas.

For example, Imam Hanifa used to do Qiyas in the matters where there were Nasoos present for that matter. So, it's haram to use Qiyyas in the matters, for which we have Nasoos.

Also, if there occurs a new problem, then solving it according to own mind and logic is known as Qiyyas. While in these new matters, if Hukam is found on the bases of principles of Islam, then it is known as Ijtehaad.

Let me give you an example. Ayatullah Baqar-us-Sadr wrote a whole book on "Banking System". In it he deduced a lot of new rules on the bases of "Ilm-ul-Usool". Now deducing these new rules is not a Qiyyas, as he based all these new matters on the principle of religion.

Similarly, Wilayah in the absence of Infallible Imam is a new matter (although I don't think so, and there is already a hadith about the Wilayah of Ulama, which I quoted above).

So, let's say if for this new matter, if any principle is deduced on basing the existing rules of Islam, then it will not be known as Qiyyas, but Ijtehaad.

For those who say that in the absence of Infallible Imam, whole Ummah has got the right of Wilayah.

I feel that it will be a real conjecture, till the time they bring a proof from the saying of Infallible Imam that in his absence, whole Ummah has got the right to take decision collectively.

In fact, this conjecture/analogy/Qiyyas is directly against the above mentioned hadith of Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq(as).

======================

And at the end, one religiously devoted and Politically awar Alim can understand the situation much much much better than 99% remaining Ummah.

i.e. the decision of 99% ummah can never be better than such devouted and Knowledgeable person. If it is otherwise, then please prove us that the remaining 99% Ummah has the ability to understand the situation better than him and can make a better decission, which is according to the laws of religion and politically the best one.

===============

"The concept of Wilayat al faqih is such a simple concept it might not need any proof[to be proven]." Imam Khumaini(ra)

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Brother Waiting wrote:

Why would they have faith in a clerical government? All clerical governments during all times of history without exception have been known to be the worst kind of oppressive rulerships.

Well, in Pakistan and India, people are trying to bring Democracy for the last 50 years, but still not 100% true democracy came.

About Pakistan, all Pakistani Intellects say that we must give TIME to Democracy to develop.

Well, I think same can be said about Wilayat e Faqih. We must give some more time to this system and Insha Allah it will overcome it's short comings. Already we are watching better results in Iran.

PS:

1) I am very much for "Personal Freedom", but very much against "Total Personal Freedom". West made this same mistake of "Total Personal Freedom" and it brought their Moral Soceity close to death.

2) According to my limited knowledge, Agha Shirazi was also for the rule of Allah (Sharia). Although he wanted a Shura to play role of Wali Faqih.

If I am wrong on this issue, please correct me.

Was Salam.

Posted (edited)
I think is this your mistaken notion, and there is absolutely no relations between extracting laws and ruling over people. Also, Many great Mujtahids are also against critical rule, ranging from the Great Ayatollah Al-Khoei to past great Mujtahids such as Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Muhammad Al-Qumi – I personally think scholars will lose their respect and focus once they engage in politics and “rulership” – looking at Iran today, most of the scholars that are respected by the general public are those who have nothing to do with the government, or even affiliated to it.

hmm, interesting, i suppose that would mean that prophet muhammad(s) and the aimmah(a) who had temporal power - such as imam ali and imam hassan "lost their respect and focus" - what a silly statement!! astaghfirullah.

and to say that we can not be like them is also wrong, because Allah sent them down as role models for us- what is the is the point of sending a role model if you cannot follow the role model because "political power and rulership" corrupts every living human being except the masumeen?!!!

based on this argument we should put our hands up, allow all injustices to continue and sit around waiting for imam mahdi(aj) to turn up and liberate us from the mess we have allowed ourselves to fall into by virtually diefying the masumeens who came as examples and role models for us to follow.

hehehe, funny, isn't that what the hujjatiyyah people say? let's increase corruption and fitneh and injustice and tyranny and then imam mahdi(aj) will turn up.

astaghfirullah :cry:

what sillyness!! please let's follow the role models and not diefy the imams as being the only ones who can rule or be political and islamic rulers.

please.

imam khumayni(a) has shown the way, hizbullah have shown the way, if we are still blind then quite frankly the abuses that we have faced are our own doing.

:cry:

alajal alajal ya maulana, ya sahib az-zamaan!

khuda hafiz

fatema

Edited by fsh
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

(bismillah)

Well, I think same can be said about Wilayat e Faqih. We must give some more time to this system and Insha Allah it will overcome it's short comings. Already we are watching better results in Iran. 

Dear Sister, democracy can never reach 100% for the mere fact that human make-up will never accept an opposing opinion of his when it comes to reaction and retracting for the simple reason that we want others to think the same way we do. This is why in societies where free elections are held, we have political parties that advocate their plans and vision for their nation, if they get enough popular support, they win and rule for a total of four years. If during those four years, most of the people become dissatisfied with the results of the current government, it can be voted out of power.

So there is a constant change of leaders, parties and ideas, which keeps the country fresh to innovation and change in all fields and sectors of society. However, in a Clerical style rule, the Leader is always right, you cannot criticize him, he’s a “Mulla”, he can’t be wrong – and over time, he becomes the “Shadow of God on earth” – this title was given to Sayed Ali Khamanaei recently. So basically, this sort of rule will produce fanatics no different than some members on this forum who easily throw Takfir on anyone who rejects their view and form of government. Also, it will be immune to change, the so-called President is no more than a puppet in the hands of the Faqeeh and his ruling “elite”, and the rule will never change, be it in four years or a hundred years.

As for Iran getting “better”, from the social point of view, how is it getting better exactly?

2) According to my limited knowledge, Agha Shirazi was also for the rule of Allah (Sharia). Although he wanted a Shura to play role of Wali Faqih. 

Yes he does, Sayed Muhammad Al-Shirazi (Qadas Allah Nafseh Al-Zakiya) did believe in Wilayat Al-Faqeeh in its Shura form by electing a body of Mujtahids (by other Mujtahids) who serve as a “Watch tower” over the entire state – Meaning after the political party is elected, along with the parliamentary representatives by the people, they are completely free to rule over the country with no interference by the Body of Fuqaha’a until the interests of Islam are directly threatened, and the ruling government doesn’t interfere to remove this threat.

If you read the Sayed’s vision, it is quite different from Sayed Al-Khomeini’s vision, but that does not mean that the Sayed’s vision is wrong or invalid. Before the creation of wilayat Al-Faqeeh, the Mujtahid served as a “Watch tower” anyway for the Shah or Caliph (during the reign of Shia Empires), so the Sayed’s vision was a modification of this tradition. However, the direct involvement in politics is one of the sharpest differences between Sayed Shirazi and Sayed Khomeini.

(salam)

Edited by NoorFatima
Posted

question: was prophet muhammad(s) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

question: was imam ali(a) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

question: are the prophet muhammad and imam ali our role models?

answer: yes

i think the rest is pretty obvious. :Hijabi:

khuda hafiz

fatema

  • Veteran Member
Posted
(bismillah)
Ehhh...you're joking right??

No I’m not, are you seriously telling me that you don't mind living under a rule similar to Wilayat AlFaqeeh? Keeping In mind that Shia style law will be enforced by the Government over all ethnicities and religious minorities including your own, would you really like that?

I personally don’t believe a true Islamic state can be achieved during the time of the occultation of the Awaited Guide and Saviour.

(salam)

wow, i didnt expect that, i really cant beleive someone would say that. Would you mind explain what is so wrong with wiliat faqiha?

  • Advanced Member
Posted
question: was prophet muhammad(s) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

Was he infaliible

YES

question: was imam ali(a) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

Was he infaliible

YES

I am neutral on this but still we need to consider that our Masumeen were not prone to errors and mistake like us

  • Forum Administrators
Posted

This mixing religion with politics is an old argument.

In a letter to Imam Hassan (a.s.) Muawiya said that a religious leader should not become involved in politics.

Hands up who agrees with Muawiya.

:P

Posted (edited)
question: was prophet muhammad(s) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

Was he infaliible

YES

question: was imam ali(a) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

Was he infaliible

YES

I am neutral on this but still we need to consider that our Masumeen were not prone to errors and mistake like us

so because they were infallible, but involved in politics does that mean that someone who is not infallible but follows the line of the prophet and imams as best as they can cannot emulate them in politics?

the prophets and imams were role models for us - not figures who we look up to just and who we say did certain things that we cannot do because they were infallible - that is crazy - how can Allah be just if he sends us a role model who we can't follow because the role model is angellic even?

had that been the case logically Allah would have sent an angel - he sent human beings for a reason - so that they can be followed.

this is logical, to suggest otherwise ... well ... what do i know :Hijabi:

khuda hafiz

fatema

Edited by fsh
  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

question: was prophet muhammad(s) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

question: was imam ali(a) directly involved in politics?

answer: yes

question: are the prophet muhammad and imam ali our role models?

answer: yes

i think the rest is pretty obvious.

So basically, The Faqeeh has the same functions and rights as do the Prophets and Imams in all aspects of their divine mission and capabilities, be it in Politics or economics?

(salam)

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

Would you mind explain what is so wrong with wiliat faqiha?

I have a problem with the notion that one man gets to have the final say in all matter of life, especially when some of these matters have nothing to do with him, be it economics or strategising war.

Also, please read this, it seems you missed it:

So there is a constant change of leaders, parties and ideas, which keeps the country fresh to innovation and change in all fields and sectors of society. However, in a Clerical style rule, the Leader is always right, you cannot criticize him, he’s a “Mulla”, he can’t be wrong – and over time, he becomes the “Shadow of God on earth” – this title was given to Sayed Ali Khamanaei recently. So basically, this sort of rule will produce fanatics no different than some members on this forum who easily throw Takfir on anyone who rejects their view and form of government. Also, it will be immune to change, the so-called President is no more than a puppet in the hands of the Faqeeh and his ruling “elite”, and the rule will never change, be it in four years or a hundred years.

(salam)

Posted

why did Allah give us prophets and imams?

so that we can mourn them and beat ourselves to pulp crying for them?

or was it because he wanted us to emulate them?

if you can answer this simple question you can answer your question above:

So basically, The Faqeeh has the same functions and rights as do the Prophets and Imams in all aspects of their divine mission and capabilities, be it in Politics or economics?

also you may want to read about the rights that imam ali(a) gave to his representatives in other parts of the world.

but naturally - if you feel that politics is separate from religion and our esteemed fuqaha cannot get involved in politics because it's a "dirty" businesses as some say - then well - i'm sorry but the islam that you're following is very different to that which i follow.

my islam is complete - and caters for every aspect, and the ulema that are my guides are those ulema who are active in every arena - i do not follow those ulema who are apolitical - since being apolitical contradicts not just the seerah of the rasul and imams but also contradicts quran.

sorry but that's how i feel - :Hijabi:

it's like a gp a doctor, he can treat me only when i have the flu, but if i have malaria or a problem with my back he can't help me - he's only half a doctor.

personally speaking half a doctor is dangerous, and i cannot goto only half a doctor when i am unwell - i have to go to a qualified doctor, the same is the case with islam.

khuda hafiz

fatema

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

Salam

NoorFatima, your posts, If it was not so tragic, I would have laughed now, but I prefer crying at the thought of what pain Imam Mahdi(AJ) feels upon these words uttered by a fellow human who claim to follow the true way of life.

Sweety, it seems you perhaps have been somewhat confused about reality, perhaps the illuminating words of Shaykha Fatema(HA) gave you such an ecstasy that you fell into a trance of illusions and hence do not know what you uttered, then I advice you as a brother in creation and faith to go make a cold Wodho to wake up from these nonsense you just spoke.

Kiss your loved ones, pull yourself together and realize that what you just said is outside the fields of Justice and Truth - what Islam is all about.

Learn from Imam Ali(A) in Nahj al-Balagha who said, "Draw lessons from history so they don't repeat themselves in the future."

True what you say, perhaps Shia for the time being might be able to do some chest beating and roam around screaming "Ya Ali!", but this does not mean they will be free to practise their religion, as Islam is a Way where Religion and Politics are merged together, or in the words of Imam Khumayni(A), "Wilayat al-Faqih is a Gift from Allah al-Mighty!".

Also the Prophet(S) said, "Musa was blind on his right eye and Jesus was blind on his left eye, but I see with both eyes."

Meaning Musa(A) was more worldly and Jesus(A) was more spiritual while the Prophet of Islam(S) sees with both eyes, meaning Islam is both Religion and Politics - Spiritual and Worldly.

USA has not come to liberate the true lovers and followers, Shia of Ali(A) but rather to imprison them in the Shaytani version of Islam.

How will they do so?

Simple.

By first separating the very core that the call of Islam was built upon, namely to separate the politics from Islam, which means that the politicians can open porno cinemas, spread all sorts of haram material surrounding us, raping the dignity, body, personality and spirit of our women and daughters, etc etc , as long as some (confused) of us claiming that we are allowed to "freely practise our religion".

I'm sorry sunshine, but you can not freely practise your religion as your religion does not separate with politics and that is exactly what USA wants.

To be able to do some matam or pray etc is not Islam. Islam is something global and that is why the eternal kingdom of love under the banner of al-Mahdi(A) will be global as well, even though everyone will not pray and fast as we do.

Ponder upon the precious words of Imam Khumayni(A),

If we Muslims do nothing but engage in the canonical prayer, petition God, and invoke His name, the imperialists and the oppressive governments allied with them will leave us alone. If we were to day, "Let us concentrate on calling the azan24 and saying our prayers. Let them come rob us of everything we own -- God will take care of them! There is no power or recourse except in Him, and God willing, we will be rewarded in the hereafter!" - if this were our logic, they would not disturb us.

Once, during the occupation of Iraq, a certain British officer asked: "Is the azan I hear being called now from the minaret harmful to British policy?" When he was told that it was harmless, he said: "Then let him call for prayer as much as he wants!"

If you pay no attention to the policies of the imperialists, and consider Islam to be simply the few topics you are always studying and never go beyond them, then the imperialists will leave you alone. Pray as much as you like; it is your oil they are after -- why should they worry about your prayers? They are after our minerals, and want to turn our country into a market for their goods. That is the reason the puppet governments they have installed prevent us from industrializing, and instead, establish only assembly plants and industry that is dependent on the outside world.

(Imam Khumayni(A), Islamic Government)

Once again, deeply reflect upon the words of Imam Khumayni(A) and try the grasp the simple words of truth he utters (ironically in Najaf al-Ashraf, now Occupied by the Dajjal of our Time) and act upon them,

They do not want us to be true human beings, for they are afraid of true human beings. Even if only one true human being appears, they fear him, because others will follow him and he will have an impact that can destroy the whole foundation of tyranny, imperialism, and government by puppets. So whenever some true human being has appeared, they have either killed him or imprisoned and exiled him, and tried to defame him by saying: "This is a political akhund!" Now the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was also a political person. This evil propaganda is undertaken by the political agents of imperialism only to make you shun politics, to prevent you from intervening in the affairs of society and struggling against treacherous governments and their anti-national and anti-Islamic policies. They want to work their will as they please, with no one to bar their way.

(Imam Khumayni(A), Islamic Government)

And the outcome of all this?

You can see it in the West, this is how their faith slowly faded away and by now has almost entirely vanished from the heart of the Westernize people who live under the banner of Secularism, the same banner raised by Yazeed, but who was torn into pieces by Imam Husayn(A).

You wish to live under a secularism ruled by USA and through that comment as you did and applaud the Amerikkkan invasion of Iraq, fine do so, but then I'm sorry to say but I do not see any difference between you and Ahl al-Kufa who wrote thousands of letters of Imam Husayn(A) to free them from tyranny, but once he rouse, they backed off and preferred to live under the secular rule of Yazeed under the excuse of "Freely practising ones religion."

"It is our duty to preserve Islam. This duty is one of the most important obligations incumbent upon us; it is more necessary even than prayer and fasting. It is for the sake of fulfilling this duty that blood must sometimes be shed. There is no blood more precious than that of Imam Husayn, yet it was shed for the sake of Islam, because of the precious nature of Islam."

(Imam Khumayni(A), Islamic Government)

If you still do not accept the truth of not my words, but the words of the Seal of Messengers(S) as well as the Man of our Century, Imam Khumayni(A), then I present for you the argument and I indeed hope you will accept it, as if one does not accept the Quran as a proof upon ones actions so one can correct them, then indeed one needs to seriously question ones faith in Tawheed and Qiyamat, the two pillars of Islam.

'The believers, men and women, are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil;... they establish the prayer, pay the zakat, and obey God and His Messenger' (9:71).

As you can see the regular worship which you claimed “the Shia where able to freely practise through the invasion of Shaytan al-Akbar” is set first after enjoy good and forbidding evil. Or in the words of Imam Khumayni(A), “ In this verse, God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil first because He knows that if this duty is correctly performed, all other duties, whether easy or difficult, will fall into place. For enjoining the good and forbidding the evil means summoning men to Islam while at the same time remedying oppression, opposing the oppressor, making just distribution of the spoils of war, and levying and spending taxes in just and due form." (Imam Khumayni(A), Islamic Government))

I invite you to study the Life and Works of the perfect man and great ‘Aref Imam Khumayni(A), particularly those about Political Islam, and if you can handle it (as Ayatollah Seestani(HA) said, Irfan is good for those who can bear it) also his works upon the finer concepts of Islam, Irfan and Gnosticism/Mysticism. Then perhaps you will realize that all we speak, the light we spread around upon this forum is nothing but Tawheed of the True Islam of Muhammad(S). As Tawheed at the individual level is Religion, while Tawheed at the collective/social level is Politics – all merged together under the name of Islam!

Verily God commands you to return trusts to their owners, and to act with justice when you rule among men. Verily God counsels you thus, and God is all-hearing, all-seeing. 0 you who believe, obey God and obey the Messenger and the holders of authority from among you [i.e., those entrusted with leadership and government} When you dispute with each other concerning a thing, refer it to God and His Messenger; if you believe in God and the Last Day, this will be best for you and the result, most beneficial. (4:58-59).

Salam

me

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

So basically, The Faqeeh has the same functions and rights as do the Prophets and Imams in all aspects of their divine mission and capabilities, be it in Politics or economics?

fsh,

You have not answered my question; you just danced around it with colourful side-dishes and comments that have nothing to do with the time of the Holy Imams. We are not living in the time of Imam Ali or Imam Hussayn, we are living in the time of AlHujja Ibn Al-Hassan who embodies all of those times and tragedies - your emphasis that the Faqeeh and Imam share the same political rights is quite absurd.

As for why we have those Imams and Prophets, the answer lies within the ray of guidance they provided for humanity in following this guidance and implementing the laws of God on those who wish to receive them - but that does not necessarily mean that I need a "Mulla" to hold office in the government without the direct election of the people. Until he can prove that he's infallible, I won't support such a system.

(salam)

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(bismillah)

Ehsan,

I will reflect on your post insha'Allah, some if your points have nothing to do with my personal opinion in regards to the invasion of Iraq, and 'accepting American rule" as I have not done such a thing.

I'm a firm believer in the vision you wrote about above of a true Islamic state, but I believe this vision will only come true until the return of Imam Al-Mahdi. I don't believe in a western style democracy, we can create our own style based on our needs and demands, a need that is defined by our faith as Muslims.

Like I said, I will reflect on what you wrote above, and insha'Allah kheer will be our objective and pillar of our unity us brothers in faith.

(salam)

Posted

firstly, i'm not dancing around anything, as your sister, i find it rude that you would even suggest this :Hijabi: at least show some respect - i mean if you're going to talk such things - at least be respectful.

excuse me while i go and pray to my imam - instead of following him and praying to Allah - because since i cannot emulate my imam - i must - by implication either worship him or reject him.

for the sake of Allah - how can you be so niave my brother - i'm a sister and i can see how insane what you're saying is - i've not avoided your question - i've answered it - you cannot separate islam and politics - cuz you cannot separate them in quran - it's not like quran has a got two sections

section 1 - spirituality

section 2 - politics

come on brother - islam is combined - that's why it's so perfect - if it were only piecemeal then it would be pointless - like other systems which have come and gone.

islam has survived because it is complete and perfect

so what question did i dance around (i hope my hubby doesn't find out that i've been "dancing around" in front of strange men - astaghfirullah - the mere fact that you suggest something like that is obscene)

i wonder if the two gentlemen in your signature allow you to speak to a non-mahram sister in this way and make such allegations - somehow i doubt it brother.

on a more serious note, please can you explain to this thick sister of yours, exactly what value the imams and prophets have if all i can't follow them in their every action. because that is what you are suggesting by separating politcs from islam.

if you have a valid answer, then i will accept ur reply and i will even try to convince my husband (shaykh shabbir) - and you know we women can be very convincing to our husbands :)

khuda hafiz

fatema

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Hey Ehsan,

USA has not come to liberate the true lovers and followers, Shia of Ali(A) but rather to imprison them in the Shaytani version of Islam

Why has the Grand Ayatollah Sistani so far, approved of the path to democracy that the Americans have made possible with the overthrow of Hussein?

Do you live in Iraq? Have you ever been there? Are you Shiite? And if so, do you think you are wiser or more devout in faith than the Grand Ayatollah Sistani?

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