Iraq: Clerical Rule or No?

[fsh]

oh yes, bibi zaynab who you mention in your signature a lot was extremely political - she wasn't masum like the imams - she didn't separate politics from islam, fatema zehra the same.

so you separate politics from islam because it can't be done without an infallible - interesting - do you worship the masums or do you emulate them (or attempt to)?

if you worship them - then can you please ask those in your signature if that is allowed - because last time i checked only Allah can be worship - everyone else is a path to Allah.

the path to Allah we have is perfect, why do you and others insist on messing the path up with rubish - the path is perfect - it is possible to follow the path perfectly.

i wonder if those in your signature picture were leading an islamic government (without a masum present) would your sentiments be the same or different?

it's impossible for you to give an honest answer to this hypothetical quesiton - why? because we have no way of proving whether your answer is truely honest or merely a defense, so don't bother answering - it's a rhetorical question.

also, i'm still waiting for your apology regarding me "dancing around".

:angry: :Hijabi:

fatema

[ultra-muslim]

Why has the Grand Ayatollah Sistani so far, approved of the path to democracy that the Americans have made possible with the overthrow of Hussein?

1. He has not approved.

2. He is not infallible. Respected, learned, yes. Infallible? No.

-MZA

[Frodo]

so what question did i dance around (i hope my hubby doesn't find out that i've been "dancing around" in front of strange men - astaghfirullah - the mere fact that you suggest something like that is obscene)

i wonder if the two gentlemen in your signature allow you to speak to a non-mahram sister in this way and make such allegations - somehow i doubt it brother.

oh for Christ's sake, "dancing around the issues" is merely a figure of speech. it wasnt meant literally. get a grip, seriously.

[Frodo]

Why has the Grand Ayatollah Sistani so far, approved of the path to democracy that the Americans have made possible with the overthrow of Hussein?

Do you live in Iraq? Have you ever been there? Are you Shiite? And if so, do you think you are wiser or more devout in faith than the Grand Ayatollah Sistani?

oh give me a friggin break. if you really gave a rat's a** about the learnedness and devotion and respectability of Ayatullah al Seestani (ra), if you truly and sincerely held his views in utmost esteem, you would have heeded his calls for American troops to leave Iraq and allow for elections several months ago.

but obviously you're the quintessential oppportunist, as are the US policy-makers and administrators in Iraq, since you take and pick what you like, what serves your interests, what is convenient for your tastes, while overlooking/ignoring those aspects that dont run parallel to those said interests.

Edited June 3, 2004 by Frodo

[145_turbo_16V]

(salam)

I prefer a system ruled by people who are not heedless, who know nothing about religion, and who try to belittle religion.

Seen so many of those types even in democratic nations. Forget about the "mulla" abusing religion. Even in some democracies, when you have a secular muslim leader, he/she will try to use religion.

What's worse is, they try to potray that they are on the right path (being so-called moderates) and their muslim cabinet members indulging in vices (adultery, drinking, etc).

If you support that type of society, how are you suppose to like the rule of Imam Mahdi (ATFS)?

Suddenly when Imam Mahdi (ATFS) appears you can accept his very strict ruling? Even after tens of years living under taghut rule and advocating that rule? I don't buy that.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. This is my opinion.

[fsh]

so what question did i dance around (i hope my hubby doesn't find out that i've been "dancing around" in front of strange men - astaghfirullah - the mere fact that you suggest something like that is obscene)

i wonder if the two gentlemen in your signature allow you to speak to a non-mahram sister in this way and make such allegations - somehow i doubt it brother.

oh for Christ's sake, "dancing around the issues" is merely a figure of speech. it wasnt meant literally. get a grip, seriously.

excuse me, were'nt you ever told it's rude to interrupt when your elders are speaking? i was having a discussion with noorfatima, not you. so for now - talk to the hand cuz the face ain't listening.

speak when you are spoken to :)

i don't remember addressing you frodo? when bilbo talks to you - speak then - my questions and statements were addressed to noorfatima.

khuda hafiz

fatema :Hijabi:

[Guest abaleada]

It is incredible to see so many well-thought replies from both sides, and so many entries in the poll. Even my own category of non-responding was used :-D - not by me, of course.

Ya ikhwani, , I really appreciate your participation when I have done practically nothing except ask questions. Just one request: soon we will reach the point in the discussion when people will have had their say and will either begin to repeat their arguments or attack and insult each other. Rather than do either, let us try to find a peaceful resolution to arguments by agreeing to disagree once we have explained our own viewpoints. Until then, I am grateful for the level of respect and dignity that everyone has maintained so far, and I am fascinated by the good reading that everyone has provided.

As for myself, a reason that I favour a wilayat al faqih system of government is that I trust the `ulama to lead more than I do laypersons. My fear is that laypeople are more inclined to be respected and put into positions of power if their political outlook is based on a secular education focusing on orientalism and non-Islamic political, economic, and social systems. Sister Jlain brought up an interesting point of shura, which has caused me to ponder this option.

Noor Fatimah, you raised the point that Ayatullah Khamanei has not published a proper risala. I don't consider a disorganised Q&A pamphlet to be a proper risala, myself, given the format and level of organisation of the risalas of Ayatullah Sistani and of Imam Khumayni. I was wondering if you honestly feel that it is his involvement in politics that pre-empted his potential publication of a more thoroughly-done risala? Do you think that the same might be accomplished by re-publishing the risala of Imam Khumayni and appending to it the Q&A text of Ayatullah Khamanei, as well as a compilation of some more recent Q&A from him?

Again, thank you everyone for your participation.

[Frodo]

so what question did i dance around (i hope my hubby doesn't find out that i've been "dancing around" in front of strange men - astaghfirullah - the mere fact that you suggest something like that is obscene)

i wonder if the two gentlemen in your signature allow you to speak to a non-mahram sister in this way and make such allegations - somehow i doubt it brother.

oh for Christ's sake, "dancing around the issues" is merely a figure of speech. it wasnt meant literally. get a grip, seriously.

excuse me, were'nt you ever told it's rude to interrupt when your elders are speaking? i was having a discussion with noorfatima, not you. so for now - talk to the hand cuz the face ain't listening.

speak when you are spoken to :)

i don't remember addressing you frodo? when bilbo talks to you - speak then - my questions and statements were addressed to noorfatima.

khuda hafiz

fatema :Hijabi:

LOL... what elders? do you even know how old I am?

btw, I particularly liked this comment:

so for now - talk to the hand cuz the face ain't listening.

wowww, very mature.... that's usually what comes out of the mouths of bratty, snobby 15-year old girls. :D

but i gotta give it to you, the rumors were true, you are really as obnoxious and annoying and squeely as your husband. no offence :)

oh and btw, if you dont appreciate other people participating or jumping into this discussion between you and NoorFatima, I dont mean to sound rude or anything, but jeeze, get a room.

i mean this is a public forum, isnt it?

Edited June 3, 2004 by Frodo

[Ayatollah Malang]

At the end of the day, it will be the IRAQIS who will decide who will govern them, and if their governer turns out to be a tyrant ( be it clerical or capitalist puppet) they deserve every bit of mischief that will be inflicted upon them, as Imam Ali (as) quite rightly said.

As we are deciding a cleric governrning Iraq, and many examples were made of how the Prophet pbuh and Maula Ali (as) were politicians, I would like to add they were also infallibles which meant they didnt make mistakes, as for clerics making political mistakes i would get back to that with the example of Khomeni.

Quran says we crated men in the highest form and we then reduced them to the lowest of the low.

And a latin proverb says if the most wonderful things becomes corrupt, it becomes the worst thing.

So by allowing clerics to govern countries and use Islam the way to pursue their personal interest, more damage is done to islam than if it was run by a secularist state.

Sister fish I would also like to add to your comments about the Prophet pbuh and Imam Ali (as) being politicians. Was it not Imam Jafar sadiq (as) who turned down Abu Muslims Khorasani's (ra) request to be caliph? And how about Imam reza who was poisoned by the "caliph" who at first offered him caliphtae which he (as) refused.

As i said i would get back to clerics of Iran.

These are a set of quotes from Agha Khomeini prior to AND after the Islamic Revolution of 1979(1358). Some foriengers who don't understand the situation in Iran use the revolution that took place 25 years ago to go ahead and thus make the presumption that people love the system the way it is today because they participated in the revolution! It would be good to question why people supported Khomeini and why people united behind him in order to bring CHANGE and IMPROVE Iran? What did Agha Khomeini stand for, both before without power, and after with power? Then, only then, can we begin to understand why a large majority aren't happy and want change.

QUOTE

“Personal desire, age, and my health do not allow me to personally have a role in running the country after the fall of the current system.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with the Associated Press, Paris, November 7, 1978)

“I have repeatedly said that neither my desire nor my age nor my position allows me to govern.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with the United Press, Paris, November 8, 1978)

“I don’t want to have the power or the government in my hand; I am not interested in personal power.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with The Guardian newspaper, Paris, November 16, 1978)

“I don’t want to be the leader of the Islamic Republic; I don’t want to have the government or the power in my hands. I only guide the people in selecting the system.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with an Austrian TV reporter, Paris, November 16, 1978)

“It is the Iranian people who have to select their own capable and trustworthy individuals and give them the responsibilities. However, personally, I can’t accept any special role or responsibility.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with Le Journal newspaper, Paris, November 28, 1978)

“After the Shah’s departure from Iran, I will not become a president nor accept any other leadership role. Just like before, I limit my activities only to guiding and directing the people.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with Le Monde newspaper, Paris, January 9, 1979)

“The Islamic regime does not have oppression.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with France Press news agency, Paris, October 25, 1978)

“The foundation of our Islamic government is based on freedom of dialogue and will fight against any kind of censorship.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with Reuters news agency, Paris, October 26, 1978)

“In the Islamic Republic the rights of the religious minorities are respectfully regarded.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with an Austrian TV reporter, Paris, November 6, 1978)

“In Iran’s Islamic government the media has the freedom to express all Iran’s realities and events, and people have the freedom to form any form of political parties and gatherings that they like.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with the Italian newspaper Paese Sera, Paris, November 2, 1978)

“Our future society will be a free society, and all the elements of oppression, cruelty, and force will be destroyed.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel, Paris, November 7, 1978)

“In Iran’s future Islamic system everyone can express their opinion, and the Islamic government will respond to logic with logic.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with international reporters, Paris, November 9, 1978)

“We would like to run the Islamic government like Islam at its beginning, so that people know how different the Islamic democracy is from other democracies. If the people of the world know the benefits of Islam, my hope is that they all become Moslems.”

—Agha Khomeini (in an interview with a group of young French people in Paris, November 9, 1978)

“In the Islamic government all people have complete freedom to have any kind of opinion.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with Human Rights Watch, Paris, November 10, 1978)

“My proposal for establishing an Islamic government does not mean a return to the past. I am strongly for civilization and progress.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with international reporters, Paris, January 11, 1979; also quoted in Etlaat newspaper in Iran)

“These words that you have heard regarding women in the future Islamic government are all hostile propaganda. In the Islamic Republic women have complete freedom, in their education, in everything that they do, just as men are free in everything.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with German reporters, Paris, November 12, 1978)

“Women are free in the Islamic Republic in the selection of their activities and their future and their clothing.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with The Guardian newspaper, Paris, November 6, 1978)

“The ranking Shiite religious clergymen do not want to govern in Iran themselves.

—Agha Khomeini (in an interview with France Press news agency, Paris, October 25, 1978)

“In Islamic Iran the clergy themselves will not govern but only observe and support the government’s leaders. The government of the country at all levels will be observed, evaluated, and publicly criticized.” —Agha Khomeini (in an interview with Reuters news agency, Paris, October 26, 1978)

Quotes from Agha Khomeini AFTER the Victory of the Revolution

“This nation exists and clerics exist too. You all must know that in every place in this country only clerics can get the job done. Don’t show so much prejudice that you want to put the clerics aside. What have you done for your country in all these years that now you’re saying clerics should not be in charge? Appreciate these clerics. You do not understand correctly! If you put this group aside, no name or sign of Islam will remain. Imagine one cleric has done something wrong somewhere. Why can you do something wrong and some cleric cannot do anything wrong?” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with the Islamic Parliament, Jamaran, Teheran, May 27,1981)

“Don’t listen to those who speak of democracy. They all are against Islam. They want to take the nation away from its mission. We will break all the poison pens of those who speak of nationalism, democracy, and such things.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with Iranian students and educators, Qom, March 13, 1979)

“That group that due to its opposition to Islam is opposing us, with the same fist that we destroyed the regime we will destroy that group as well. Pay attention to your statements. Repent from your writings. I am warning you that you still have time to repent.” —Agha Khomeini (in a talk at the Fayzieah School, Qom, June 5, 1979)

“The intellectuals, the writers, those who have information and thoughts, you see some of them take their pens and in the name of democracy they write whatever they want and they cause disagreements. This group of so-called intellectuals has to correct themselves. Whatever we are suffering is from this group of intellectuals and judges. What we are suffering is because of them. —Agha Khomeini (in a talk in Qom, July 23, 1979)

“We have to warn these intellectuals that if they don’t stop their meddling, they will be crushed. We have treated you gently so that maybe you would stop your evilness, and if you don’t stop, we will have the last word. These American sympathizers and others must know that in just a few hours we can throw them in the trashcan of annihilation any day that we wish to do so.” —Agha Khomeini (in a talk to the Iranian people, August 8, 1979)

“Those who create political fronts must stop their activities. If from the beginning, as in other revolutions in the world, several thousand of these corrupt individuals had been burned and beheaded till the issues were finished, problems would have been solved. We will allow one or more parties to operate if they operate correctly. But we announce that the rest are forbidden. We will no longer allow the same freedom that we used to give, and we cannot allow these parties to continue their activities. According to religious law, we can’t give them a grace period. Canonically, it is not correct to give a grace period. We made mistakes when we gave freedom; we can’t treat these wild animals gently. We will no longer allow any of their writings to be distributed in the country. We will destroy all their writings. We have to deal with them harshly, and we will deal with them harshly. —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with selected Members of Congress, Qom, August 18, 1979)

“After the revolution the borders were left open. Pens were free, expression was free, political parties were free. Even if these people are not Moslems, it was assumed that at least they are human. But it is clear now that they are foreign puppets. For us the identity of these writers, the identity of these political parties, the identity of these nice and meaningless phrases are now very clear. We will no longer give freedom. These people are not the type who will stop their activities just from advice. We have to deal with them harshly. —Agha Khomeini (in a talk at the Fayzieah School, Qom, August 19, 1979)

“Those who are trying to bring corruption and destruction to our country in the name of democracy will be oppressed. They are worse than Bani-Ghorizeh Jews, and they must be hanged. We will oppress them by God’s order and God’s call to prayer.” —Agha Khomeini (in a talk at the Fayzieah School, Qom, August 30, 1979)

“Those who have not voted for the Islamic Republic, it means that they want the previous system. Those who boycott the election so no one votes for the Islamic Republic are seditious. We will treat them like enemies, and we will oppress them. You are enemies that you want to cause trouble. You are enemies that you are conspiring against Islam and against the country. Your comings and goings are controlled. We have been informed that you are in contact with those who want to bring our country back to its previous system. Now that your conspiracy has been proven, we will destroy you all. If you don’t stop your evilness, we will mobilize an even higher mobilization, and we will clean out all of you. We will not allow you groups of corrupt people to remain and continue your activities. —Agha Khomeini (in a message at the end of the month-long Islamic fasting celebration, September 3, 1979)

“These rotten roots that are now at work will be oppressed, and the country will be cleaned up. After he encountered the Moavieh army, which were even worse than the infidels, and he encountered the khavareg , his Excellency the Imam Ali, the Chief of the Faithful, acted very harshly and destroyed them to the extent that only a few were able to escape.” —Agha Khomeini (in a speech to the families of Iranian Air Force pilots, Qom, September 2, 1979)

“The day of the khavareg [“outsiders”] is the day that his Excellency the Imam Ali, the Chief of the Faithful, pulled out his sword and cut all these corrupt people just like cancer tumors and killed them all. That day was “Yom-ol lah,” the day that God punishes nations by bringing earthquakes on them, bringing floods, bringing storms, and slashing people till they become human. These all are God’s day [sic], and these things are related to God.” —Agha Khomeini (in memory of the martyrs of the 17th of Shahriver [september 8th], Qom, September 8, 1979)

“Do not interrupt the activities. You all have to obey the Islamic Republic. And if you don’t, you all will vanish.” —Agha Khomeini (in a speech to Iranian Air Force officers, Isfahan, September 19, 1979)

“Those who are against us are like cancer tumors that need to be removed surgically; otherwise they will corrupt everything.”

“These writings, these speeches, these wrong activities, these democratic programs are separations from Islam. All these voices are blasphemy and are atheistic.” —Agha Khomeini (in a talk to the Representatives from Tabriz, Qom, September 19, 1979)

“We have to identify those who are not in line with Islam and the Islamic movement by their articles, speeches, and activities. You the clergy, thank God, who have control over the Islamic nation [referring to the Iranian people] have to warn people of the devils who arrange gatherings and lectures. They are all afraid of one thing, which is Islam. They might criticize many things, but the key point is that they are attacking Islam itself. Their pens are the same old bayonets that have become like pens … [sic]. They all have to understand that as long as there is a pulpit and an altar, and as long as these homily readers [that is, Mullahs] exist, they cannot do anything. To all of you who oppose us, I recommend that you don’t gather so much, don’t send so many fliers, don’t publish so much; have you now become brave enough to stick out your neck? I will slap you on your mouth. You think that you have power? Stop all these words and all this gibberish.” —Agha Khomeini (to a group of clergymen, Qom, October 22, 1979)

“In the revolution that was achieved in Iran, people were screaming that they wanted Islam; these people did not rise up so their country could have democracy.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with the Islamic Republic Television and Radio Committee, Qom, December 10, 1979)

“These criminals that have been arrested are not accused, but their crimes have been proven. We only have to prove their identity and then kill them all. There is absolutely no need for a trial. No compassion for them will be allowed. We believe that the guilty party does not need a trial and must be killed.” —Agha Khomeini (in a message to the Iranian people, June 30, 1980)

“People have to learn from the mother who brought her own son to court and then her son was hanged. This is one of the paradigms of Islam, that everyone has to be the same. Children, brothers, kids—if they do not accept advice, introduce them to government officials so that they can receive their punishment … this is their Islamic responsibility and their faith responsibility. This must be done.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with Islamic Republic police officers, July 24, 1981)

“This job that you have accomplished, Oh you, woman, that you brought and gave away your son for punishment has become a paradigm in Islam. This is something that everyone must do. It is the responsibility of all Moslems to do the same.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with the mother of Mahmoud Tarighol-Islam to announce her as an exemplary mother, Jamaran, August 26, 1981)

“Iran is following a program, and that program is Islam. The same Islam that says if somebody has an association with left or right, that individual is fighting God. He has the intention of fighting God, and his punishment is the punishment that people fighting God will receive. —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with coaches and educators, Jamaran, September 19, 1982)

“Dear students, you must watch the behavior and the activities of your teachers and professors so that if, God forbid, they say something wrong, you see them deviating, right away you must report them to the responsible officials. Teachers and professors, you must be alert to watch your own colleagues to see if some of them are trying to teach deviating thoughts during their lessons to the children of our Islamic nation so that they can be stopped. If this does not work, directly communicate with officials. My dear children, you too take care of one another in the best possible way, and if you observe that some enemies in the appearance of friends or schoolmates are trying to attract your friends, introduce them to the responsible officials, and try to do all these things very secretly. Committed mothers and fathers, watch the comings and goings of your children and observe their activities.” —Agha Khomeini (in a message on the first day of the school year, Qom, September 23, 1982)

“When human rights came, they saw our jails, they left, and they said: ‘Jails are good. Civilized, in accordance with democratic [sic], because the logic is Islamic logic.”

—Agha Khomeini (Qom, August 19, 1979)

“In the world there is no democracy better than our democracy. Such a thing has never before been seen.” —Agha Khomeini (in a statement to the Minister of Finance, Qom, June 23, 1979)

“Our nation has become a model for all countries.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with the families of Iranian Air Force martyrs, Qom, December 29, 1980)

“We would like to have a university in the service of our own nation, not a university whose slogan is that we want a civilized and modern Iran, that wants to move toward a great civilization. These things will make our universities dependent on outsiders. We are against those universities from the foundation. We want university professors who are not facing left or right. They should not be Atatürk or Taghizadeh. —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with Members of the Islamic Society and Jahad Daneshgahi, University of Science and Industry, Qom, August 26, 1981)

“In history, revolutions similar to Iran’s revolution are achieved only with the help of messengers of God.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with the Rajai and Bahonar families, Jamaran, Tehran, September 2, 1981)

“A monopoly by itself is not a corrupt thing. God’s messengers had a monopoly; the blessed and supreme God also had a monopoly. The monopoly of this [sic] is correct. The monopoly of Mr. Beheshti and these seventy innocent martyrs is very much correct.” —Agha Khomeini (in a message to the Central Committee of the Islamic Republic of Iran Party, Jamaran, Tehran, September 7, 1981)

“The Iranian people have created calmness in the entire country now.”

“I recommend that you continue your good treatment of the prisoners.”

—Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with the Rajai and Bahonar families, Jamaran, Tehran, September 2, 1981)

“In the last two years, so much has been accomplished in our country that it cannot be believed.” —Agha Khomeini (Jamaran, Teheran, February 16, 1982)

“Whatever problems we have are from the past regime. Thank God, the current regime has not caused you any problem. Those who travel outside, wherever they go, when they return they say that all nations are in love with Iran.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with coaches and educators, September 19, 1982)

“Today our women are so immersed in God’s blessings that there is no limit. Maybe they are not recognizing the great blessings of God.” —Agha Khomeini (in a New Year’s message, March 21, 1983)

“Those who give their entire attention to animal husbandry cannot become human, and those who give their entire attention to horticulture cannot become human.” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with Islamic officials during the New Year’s ceremony, Jamaran, Tehran, March 21, 1983)

“We don’t have the power to statistically measure what has happened in our country in the last few years. The nation has to be thankful to the government for this.”

“If these superpowers want to attack us, we won’t allow them to land their airplanes! We will kill their paratroopers in midair, and we will destroy them. Do you think they can attack here?” —Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with members of the Islamic Revolution Central Committees during the New Year’s ceremony, Jamaran, Tehran, April 10, 1983)

“The Great God has given His gifts to you, and if you are not thankful of your current conditions, I am afraid of Almighty God’s wrath toward you, and then, God forbid, everyone will burn, both dry and wet [that is, both the innocent and the guilty], and there will no path to escape for any of you. —Agha Khomeini (message on the fifth anniversary of the establishment of the Islamic Republic, April 1, 1983)

“They keep saying there is inflation. There is shortage. We put ourselves, our principles, and our Islam in danger because meat is expensive, fruit is expensive, and people are unhappy, and God forbid, our unity will be destroyed, and all of our principles and hard work that the prophets have done for Islam will disappear. Become human a little bit.”

—Agha Khomeini (in a meeting with the Minister of the Interior and his staff, April 10, 1983)

So a good question to ask is, what happened to all those promises and what caused the change of heart?

I found this from the net, what do bro's and sisters think about it ?

[145_turbo_16V]

(salam)

This reply is for sis. Abby (eventhough the question was originaly directed at someone else).

Inshaallah I will ask a friend of mine who knows Sayyid Ali Khamenei. I will ask about the "proper" risala.

Edited June 3, 2004 by 145_turbo_16V

[Guest abaleada]

...

i've not avoided your question - i've answered it - you cannot separate islam and politics - cuz you cannot separate them in quran - it's not like quran has a got two sections

section 1 - spirituality

section 2 - politics

come on brother - islam is combined - that's why it's so perfect - if it were only piecemeal then it would be pointless - like other systems which have come and gone.

...

(bismillah)

(salam)

It might be that those who do not support the wilayah al faqih would still want a governmental system based on the laws of Islam.

[Guest abaleada]

(salam)

I prefer a system ruled by people who are not heedless, who know nothing about religion, and who try to belittle religion.

...

Suddenly when Imam Mahdi (ATFS) appears you can accept his very strict ruling? Even after tens of years living under taghut rule and advocating that rule? I don't buy that.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. This is my opinion.

(bismillah)

(salam)

I cannot determine from what you've written what kind of governmental system you prefer. Are you still undecided? What is your preference? Thank you for your input. I especially appreciate your remarks about how satisfied too many of us are to live under the rule of the taghut.

[fsh]

mr malang - sorry qizilbash the alevi,

what's your point - so you don't like imam khumayni(a) and?

your like or dislike changes nothing - you are irrelevant.

the worldwide islamic revolution will happen - and is happening - you can do nothing to stop it - make your wierd posts - they are incoherent anyway, try to split islam and politcs - do your worst - if the men weaken and become stupid - we - the women - we will take the helm - we have the line of zaynab(a) and fatema(a) - we will not let imam mahdi(aj) and bibi narjis khatun(a) down

we will not sell our lord for a few pieces of silver.

:angry: :Hijabi:

khuda hafiz

fatema

[fsh]

It might be that those who do not support the wilayah al faqih would still want a governmental system based on the laws of Islam.

i've not mentioned wilayatulfaqih.

i've mentioned islam is combined and complete that's all :)

salaams from brother shabbir sis

khuda hafiz

fatema

[fsh]

brother frodo, ignore my somewhat childish statement about the hand - hehehe - i've got some kiddies over - and got a little carried away - no offense intended, i just want noor fatima to reply.

he says i've avoided his quesiton and i haven't - so i'd like to see his response, thats all.

brother shabbir sends salaams to you :)

khuda hafiz

fatema

[Guest abaleada]

(salam)

This reply is for sis. Abby (eventhough the question was originaly directed at someone else).

Inshaallah I will ask a friend of mine who knows Sayyid Ali Khamenei. I will ask about the "proper" risala.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Two requests:

1) Please don't use my words unless you can modify them to make them more respectful. I intended the phrase "proper risala" for my peers and not the author of the Risala (ha).

2) Any addition to the Q&A risala of Ayatullah Khamanei that I already own would be very much appreciated. When my virus ate my Juno.exe, it also ate a large volume of email Q&A that Hajar auntie gave me; and in any case, even though I have excerpts from the risala of Imam Khumayni ans several speeches and Q&A and such from Ayatullah Khamanei, the fact is that they are not in print form and therefore not as easy to reference as a computer.

[fsh]

but i gotta give it to you, the rumors were true, you are really as obnoxious and annoying and squeely as your husband. no offence

nice to see that you've all been backbiting myself and shabbir :)

alhamdu lillah :)

it's not surprising most of you don't want an islamic government - you'd all be toast under islamic law :Hijabi: still under the yanks we can do ziyarat and matam and eveyrthing - we just better not think about getting any real rights - and as for full sovereignty - sure - we just don't control the military - lol - as shabbir would say - if this wans't so tragic - it'd be funny :cry:

khuda hafiz

fatema

[The Canuck]

(salam)

Ayatollah malang/Alevi from Turkey, who seems to claim he knows Iranian History, please show the reference for that article other than from the "malang" shiabooks chat forum, posted by a poster named "malang". Who is most likely you.

You have know clue what you're talking about.

[Ayatollah Malang]

(salam)

Ayatollah malang/Alevi from Turkey, who seems to claim he knows Iranian History, please show the reference for that article other than from the "malang" shiabooks chat forum, posted by a poster named "malang". Who is most likely you.

You have know clue what you're talking about.

And?

The millins of hard core wali faqhi supporters who also happened to be foreigners do, please dont make me puke

Do not look at who is saying it, look at what he is saying"

The quran says even if a kaffir brings proof, analyse it, you hav not done that, all you do is deny the fault of Khoemni which are apparent i his sayings.

[Ayatollah Malang]

mr malang - sorry qizilbash the alevi,

what's your point - so you don't like imam khumayni(a) and?

your like or dislike changes nothing - you are irrelevant.

the worldwide islamic revolution will happen - and is happening - you can do nothing to stop it - make your wierd posts - they are incoherent anyway, try to split islam and politcs - do your worst - if the men weaken and become stupid - we - the women - we will take the helm - we have the line of zaynab(a) and fatema(a) - we will not let imam mahdi(aj) and bibi narjis khatun(a) down

we will not sell our lord for a few pieces of silver.

:angry: :Hijabi:

khuda hafiz

fatema

what's your point - so you don't like imam khumayni(a) and?

Him killing thousand of innocents people is enough for me to dislike him.

your like or dislike changes nothing - you are irrelevant.

Like what you say does.

the worldwide islamic revolution will happen - and is happening - you can do nothing to stop it - make your wierd

Nor can you do anyhting to aid it with your stupi little posts.

Talking about worldwide islamic revolutions are you by any chance refering to osama bin ladin which is of your ilk?

I do not see any revolution apart from the kaffirs raping the land of Arabs.

As far as i am concerned Imam Mahdi (may Allah hasten his return) will destroy your psedou ilk as Ulama_soo are nothing but Khawarij, and those who "pray" for his return will infact turn khawarij because you will not be able to understand him just like they didnt understand Imam Ali.

if the men weaken and become stupid - we - the women - we will take the helm - we have the line of zaynab(a) and fatema(a) - we will not let imam mahdi(aj) and bibi narjis khatun(a) down

i am sure the Queen of heavens Hazrat Fatima is very "pleased" with you ilk at the moment.

[The Canuck]

(salam)

And?

The millins of hard core wali faqhi supporters who also happened to be foreigners do, please dont make me puke

Do not look at who is saying it, look at what he is saying"

The quran says even if a kaffir brings proof, analyse it, you hav not done that, all you do is deny the fault of Khoemni which are apparent i his sayings.

Who said I denied it? .. it should be analyzed. First of all that's not even proof of anything. What I was saying is, you don't know the story, you don't know what happened, and it is very difficult to know the truths from the distortions and from the false things.

Salam.

[waiting]

Same old discussion zainabia - you bring it up again and again. Do you even bother to read what I reply?

I have told you a hundred times and I will do it once again and I do hope you read it this time.

I do not believe in what you and your co-opinionists call "Islamic rule". I don't believe that prophets were sent with the mission to establish political rulerships. I don't believe that religion, prophets etc. have anything to do at all with the temporal rulership.

There is no such thing as an "islamic rulership". Overtime, the learned shia scholars have looked at the existing political infrastructures in their lifetimes and developed versions of them, and presented them as "islamic".

I am living in a time when the biggest, most successful and commonly accepted way of ruling is called "democracy", an extended version of the first council of the people in Athens 2500 years ago where free, athenian males with a certain income gathered in a council to determine their own future.

I don't claim that democracy has its roots in Islam, or that it is the optimal and absolutely best way for all times, nor do I claim that it is without faults.

On the ideohistorical level, what is normally referred to as democracy is abhorrent. It is not the rule of the people, it is the dictatorship of the majority upon the minority. It implies that if there is a majority in a society who are in favor of something, then that must become law and norm, which the minority must accept and in some cases adapt to.

With this ugly ideohistorical background, it is still the only serious alternative in our lifetimes. It is the system which works with least conflict, friction and with certain modifications - such as limiting the powers of the majority through conventions such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights so that the minority are protected with a minimum level of freedom of thinking, speaking and acting - it satisfies intelligence and the heart simultaneously.

What you claim to be "islamic" is a human innovation. Clerical rule has existed everywhere but in Islam. It has existed in ancient Egypt, Persia, India, China, Rome, etc.

Clergy do not have an islamic justification in my opinion. Clergy is not an islamic concept, it is a muslim innovation not instituted by divine command; my interpretation of Shii Islam is very clear in that all men without exception have been made Viceregents of God on Earth, not a special turban-wearing priest class.

I do not even believe in Clergy and you are asking me to believe that the clergy are God's appointees on earth with a special and divine right to rulership?

The Qur'an has appointed man as God's Viceregent, I am sure if the clerics were Viceregents of God, then it would have been mentioned in the Qur'an.

Wilayat al Faqih is a Greco-Iranian concept. It is greek, because its basis that the most knowledglable has a right to rule is a direct deduction from Plato's "The Republic" with his claims of the "Philosopher-Kings". It is iranian, because Iranian monarchy in particular has pressed on the monarchs as godly men who must be absolutely obeyed.

If the most knowledglable has the right to rule, then Satan must be the ruler of man, for his knowledge is more vast than man's knowledge.

The only one who has Absolute right to be obeyed without questioning is God Almighty Himself, not even the Prophet for he, in tur, gets his legitimacy from the Almighty but the Almighty has this right by his very being.

Edited June 3, 2004 by waiting

[Ayatollah Malang]

Nice post bro waiting

(salam) to you

[zainabia]

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

According to my limited knowledge, if I had to take decision, then it goes in favour of Wilayat-e-Faqih.

A brother had been working on this project and you can find English Articles on Wilayat-e-Faqih here:

http://www.qaed.net/wilayah.php?id=home

Let me quote a little from the last article (which contains a part from one of my earlier post):

========================

An example of Democracy in Islam

========================

After reading quran, it's clear that Allah told prophet Muhammad (saww) to consult the people (shura) and then take the decision that he thinks appropiate (i.e. the final decision belongs to the leader).

[As a matter of fact, an infallible Imam even doesn't need the consultation to reach the correct decision. But it was only in order to show us (the fallible ones) of how to run the government.

So, I don't agree with those brothers who say that majority of people have the final decission]

===========================================

Can Comparison be made between governmental system

of Imam Ali(as) and Present Iranian System?

===========================================

Imam Ali(as) appointed the governers, who also ruled according to this law (i.e. final decission didn't went to the majority of people).

It was not only Imam Ali(as) in the center of State. But we can also look at the way of government in the different provinces (which were led by fallible governors)

For example, Egypt was a very big province at that time. Imam Ali(as) appointed Muhammad bin Abi Bakr. OK.

Question 1: Where has the democracy went in this case?

==========================================

Answer: Imam Ali(as) was infallible and had the right to

do so. Since no one is infallible today, so the Walih-Amr should be elected by the people.

==========================================

Question 2: The fallible governor (i.e. Muhammad bin Abi Bakr) appointed a lot of more leaders (e.g. of army, small towns and villages etc.). And the order was to obey to these directly appointed leaders.

So, where has the majority of people and democracy went in this case?

Wasn't it the Wiliyah, which was played in this case?

=========

Imam Ali(as) did give some advises to the governers before sending them. And afterwards, he wrote some letters and gave them the pieces of advises.

But as a whole, Imam Ali(as) left 99% of work of running the government on the Wilayah of those governers. And main thing remain the same i.e. he ordered them to take the suggestions (shura), but final decision belonged to the governers (similarly final decision belonged to the leaders, who were appointed by those governors).

In this whole process, people were entitled to give suggestions, but suggestions never meant final decision. All the things cannot be left on the majority of people and certainly the 100% concept of democracy is not an Islamic System.

Here is the hadith on the Wilayah of Ulama in the absence of Imam Mahdi(as) [similarly in the physical absence of Imams at some place during their lives]

Narration from Imam Ja'far Sadiq:

"They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism." Furu`u 'Al-Kafi, vol. 7, Tehran 1379, p. 412

Again you can see that majority of people are not given the Wilayah, but the Ulama are the one who are the heirs of Imams in their absence.

=======================

So, this is about the Wilayah of Ulama.

=======================

Bottomline, we have to believe that Imam Khaminei is true with mission of Imam Mahdi(as) . He may make mistakes in his final decision, but similarly is true in the final decision of collective people.

Firstly you must realise that Imams were infallible and they even didn't need any consultation. But what we see is this that Allah (swt) himself asking Prophet Muhammad (saww) to consult. And after consulting, take the final decision.

This consultation was not due to the reason that Imams(as) really needed any consultation from the fallible ones, but it was due to the reason to teach the humanity of running the government.

If it is not so, then we have to accept that (naudobillah), Allah ordered Prophet Muhammad (saww) to indulge in a useless act.

===================

Secondly , Qiyas is Haram in our Fiqh. But there is a very little difference in Qiyas and Ijtehaad. There are different definitions of Qiyas.

For example, Imam Hanifa used to do Qiyas in the matters where there were Nasoos present for that matter. So, it's haram to use Qiyyas in the matters, for which we have Nasoos.

Also, if there occurs a new problem, then solving it according to own mind and logic is known as Qiyyas. While in these new matters, if Hukam is found on the bases of principles of Islam, then it is known as Ijtehaad.

Let me give you an example. Ayatullah Baqar-us-Sadr wrote a whole book on "Banking System". In it he deduced a lot of new rules on the bases of "Ilm-ul-Usool". Now deducing these new rules is not a Qiyyas, as he based all these new matters on the principle of religion.

Similarly, Wilayah in the absence of Infallible Imam is a new matter (although I don't think so, and there is already a hadith about the Wilayah of Ulama, which I quoted above).

So, let's say if for this new matter, if any principle is deduced on basing the existing rules of Islam, then it will not be known as Qiyyas, but Ijtehaad.

For those who say that in the absence of Infallible Imam, whole Ummah has got the right of Wilayah.

I feel that it will be a real conjecture, till the time they bring a proof from the saying of Infallible Imam that in his absence, whole Ummah has got the right to take decision collectively.

In fact, this conjecture/analogy/Qiyyas is directly against the above mentioned hadith of Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq(as).

======================

And at the end, one religiously devoted and Politically awar Alim can understand the situation much much much better than 99% remaining Ummah.

i.e. the decision of 99% ummah can never be better than such devouted and Knowledgeable person. If it is otherwise, then please prove us that the remaining 99% Ummah has the ability to understand the situation better than him and can make a better decission, which is according to the laws of religion and politically the best one.

===============

"The concept of Wilayat al faqih is such a simple concept it might not need any proof[to be proven]." Imam Khumaini(ra)

Salam Alaikum

Sister Abbie, I want your thorough analysis and opinion on what is written above in favour of Wilayat-e-Faqih.

Thanks and Was Salam.

[145_turbo_16V]

(salam)

I prefer a system ruled by people who are not heedless, who know nothing about religion, and who try to belittle religion.

...

Suddenly when Imam Mahdi (ATFS) appears you can accept his very strict ruling? Even after tens of years living under taghut rule and advocating that rule? I don't buy that.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. This is my opinion.

(bismillah)

(salam)

I cannot determine from what you've written what kind of governmental system you prefer. Are you still undecided? What is your preference? Thank you for your input. I especially appreciate your remarks about how satisfied too many of us are to live under the rule of the taghut.

(salam)

Sis Abby,

Forgive me for not being clear.

I would prefer to live under those who have a good grasp on religion. It could be clerical rule like wilayatul faqih, or it could be a democracy ruled by a council of clerics. In either case I would prefer that the government try not to seperate religion and politics or other governmental functions.

For example I would like to see the implementation of "islamic banking" etc in the economic system. Kind of like what Shaheed Baqir As-Sadr had written about, i.e. Islamic Economy, as I don't believe Islam is only about salat, ziyarat, ashura, etc.

Maybe people should ponder, when ahadith say people should prepare themselves for the coming of Al-Qaem (ATFS), does it mean only about being aware about Islamic fiqah? What about the economic system?

Also were you being sarcastic by this statement? :angel:

I especially appreciate your remarks about how satisfied too many of us are to live under the rule of the taghut.

Maybe I didn't read between the lines clearly enough. :)

[zainabia]

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Brother Waiting, what you have written about Democrary, it is beautiful. But what your opinion about about Islamic System is, I don't agree with you. (I respect your right to disagree with me, but hope you give the same right to me too)

If the most knowledglable has the right to rule, then Satan must be the ruler of man, for his knowledge is more vast than man's knowledge.

In Quran, we read that Allah told one of the signs of KINGDOM of Taloot (as) that he is most Knowledgeable person.

[shakir 2:247] And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique

The only one who has Absolute right to be obeyed without questioning is God Almighty Himself, not even the Prophet for he, in tur, gets his legitimacy from the Almighty but the Almighty has this right by his very being.

I see it other way.

Not only Rasool Allah (saw) and Mawla Ali (as) got absolute powers, but also the appointed Governors in other provinces and gave them Wilayah over other people.

And rule stayed for these Govorners the same that they had to seek "Consultation" from wise people, but final decision was their Right.

Brother Waiting, what you have been writing about Islamic System, Allah is my witness that I sincerely tried to read it and think about it, but after this I come to this conclusion that I cannot agree with you, while it is going DIRECTLY against the Sunnah of Infallibles.

====================

And rule of Wali Faqih is one Discussion, but most important discussion with anti-Walih Faqih theory is this that they are ultimately turning against the implementation of Islamic Laws.

i.e.

- NO to Rule of Wali Faqih (they Suggest man made System)

- NO to Rules of Islamic Sharia (they want to introduce man made Laws)

My humble opinion is this that both these things are going hands in hands. Demolishing the Rule of Walif Faqih (through proposed Democracy) will also demolish the Rule of Islamic Sharia and Islamic Rules.

Was Salam.

[zainabia]

Salam Alaikum

Brother Turbo, it seems we have come to almost same conclusion, although our course of arguments is different.

Was Salam.

[Guest abaleada]

..

(bismillah)

(salam)

I cannot determine...

(salam)

Sis Abby,

Forgive me for not being clear.

I would prefer to live under those who have a good grasp on religion. It could be clerical rule like wilayatul faqih, or it could be a democracy ruled by a council of clerics. In either case I would prefer that the government try not to seperate religion and politics or other governmental functions.

For example I would like to see the implementation of "islamic banking" etc in the economic system. Kind of like what Shaheed Baqir As-Sadr had written about, i.e. Islamic Economy, as I don't believe Islam is only about salat, ziyarat, ashura, etc.

Maybe people should ponder, when ahadith say people should prepare themselves for the coming of Al-Qaem (ATFS), does it mean only about being aware about Islamic fiqah? What about the economic system?

[zainabia]

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Regarding the objections by br. Malang on Agha Khomeini.

1) My humble opinion is this that such type of quoting/(misquoting) will not serve the purpose.

And sometimes we have to understand the whole context of small quotation. So, till the time whole Speech and whole Situation is not kept in mind, one cannot come to right conclusion.

2) Even if not complete speeches of Imam Khomeini are quoted (after the revolution), but still Agha Khomeini has given very good arguments why he had to change his earlier stance.

For example, I am also for "Personal Freedom of Speech", but very much against "TOTAL personal freedom of Speech".

And our www.shiachat.com also guaranttee "Freedom of Speech", but still there are some laws, who have to be followed. And if someone voilates these laws, then either his post has been deleted, or he has been banned in extreme cases.

So, can we say that www.shiachat.com is an Opressor of "Freedom of Speech"?????

Was Salam.

PS:

I don't have time to answer whole article in one stance, but if Malang bhai wants, then we can continue to discuss on every point and we will see what Malang Bhai has to say when these questions will be reflected back to him.

[Frodo]

but i gotta give it to you, the rumors were true, you are really as obnoxious and annoying and squeely as your husband. no offence

nice to see that you've all been backbiting myself and shabbir :)

alhamdu lillah :)

it's not surprising most of you don't want an islamic government - you'd all be toast under islamic law :Hijabi: still under the yanks we can do ziyarat and matam and eveyrthing - we just better not think about getting any real rights - and as for full sovereignty - sure - we just don't control the military - lol - as shabbir would say - if this wans't so tragic - it'd be funny :cry:

khuda hafiz

fatema

lol maybe the fact that you think we would be "toast" under an Islamic government were it established in Iraq, for simply airing our views and opinions on things, has more to say about precisely why such an "Islamic" government should NOT be established than it has to say about our own characters?

it's quite obvious that you have no ability to think for yourself and are entrenched in the art of mimicking and parroting whatever your beloved and wise hubby has to say about things. case in point:

as shabbir would say - if this wans't so tragic - it'd be funny

which you've quoted for the umptieth time and shows the superficiality of your views. you've obviously therefore brought those rumors on yourself.

and please dont use the "i am loyal to my husband" card on me, because that's totally irrelavent.

about your hints about me somehow supporting the US occupation of my country, that's a bunch of [Edited Out], and anyone who knows anything about anything about my views/perspectives on this issue would recognize that fact.

Edited June 3, 2004 by Frodo

[Guest abaleada]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Frosdo, akh, just a note to please continue improving your tone of address. If you find yourslf addressing sister fsh and not the topic at hand, can you send her a PM. Thank you for your ideas on this thread.

[Guest abaleada]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I am looking at the poll results, and I really do not have enough IRaqis responding. Could someone please put out a call to the Iraqis on this board? Also, can the Irais on this board describe the sentiments among other Iraqis in their social circles?

Thank you all.

[hard core shia]

Enshallah Islamic Republic of Iraq!!!!

Allah AKBAR!!! :realangery: :realangery: :realangery:

[hard core shia]

but i gotta give it to you, the rumors were true, you are really as obnoxious and annoying and squeely as your husband. no offence

nice to see that you've all been backbiting myself and shabbir :)

alhamdu lillah :)

it's not surprising most of you don't want an islamic government - you'd all be toast under islamic law :Hijabi: still under the yanks we can do ziyarat and matam and eveyrthing - we just better not think about getting any real rights - and as for full sovereignty - sure - we just don't control the military - lol - as shabbir would say - if this wans't so tragic - it'd be funny :cry:

khuda hafiz

fatema

WOOAAA

I cannot believe they are actually saying that to you!! I'm the one who praised you earlier from your views, but this reckless attack against you is truly disenhearting. I bet they are jealous as hell that they cannot reach your kinda point of views. As I said in my first comment on you, you are possibly better than most men here, who in comparison look like affeminate metrosexuals. Sis don't pay attention to those affeminate so called 'men', their envy and jealousy are eating them from within, and that's why they spew that kinda diarreha outta their filthy mouths. In my eyes you are the paradigm of Mother of Islam.

[hard core shia]

[edited]

[Moderator's Note: Personal attack]

Edited June 3, 2004 by Hajar