Doctrine of Immamat

[Julius_Cesar]

Asalam-o-Alekum and hello everyone.

I have 2 questions, if somebody can please help.

Before i ask out my question i understantd that Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet SAW that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. ( Please correct me if i'm wrong ).

Question 1: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ? Please ONLY give me the verses of Quran with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

Question 2: How does the current Imaam leads Shia?

Thanks.

[GHULAAM E ABBAS]

Question 1: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ? Please ONLY give me the verses of Quran with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

Verily your master is only Allah, and His messenger and those among the believers who establish worship and pay the poor due while they are bowing down in prayer. (5:55)

No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly ground in knowledge. (3:7)

O you believe, obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those amongst you who are give supreme authority (by Allah). (4:59)

Question 2: How does the current Imaam leads Shia?

Imam al-Mahdi (as) wrote through one of his special deputies during the minor occultation:

"Rest assured, no one has a special relationship with Allah. Whoever denies me is not from my (community). The appearance of the Relief (al-Faraj) depends solely upon Allah. Therefore those who propose a certain time for it are liars. As to the benefit of my existence in occultation, it is like the benefit of the sun behind the clouds where the eyes do not see it. Indeed, my existence is an amnesty for the inhabitants of the earth. Pray much to Allah to hasten the Relief, for therein also lies the release from your sufferings."

Guidance can be of different ways. Do we need to see God to guide us? How about the Prophet who has already passed away? The above tradition of Imam al-Mahdi (as) gives a very interesting analogy, and the same analogy was given by the Prophet (pbuh&HF) on the account of Imam al-Mahdi (please see the article titled: Leadership and Infallibility). If we want to see our way and in order to walk safely, we need light. The Sun provides this light for us even if it is hidden behind the clouds where the eyes do not see it directly. Similarly, we benefit from the guidance of Imam al-Mahdi (as) even though we can not see him during his period of occultation.

[Julius_Cesar]

I am sorry my bad. I realize that both the questions i asked needs to be dealt one by one. And also i should've first made clear to you about my understanding of IMMAMAH, then asked these questions. I will only type the summary of my understanding of the concept of immamah in shia-ism, IF you ask for references i will provide them in my next reply inshallah.

"The doctrine of Imaamat: Apart from Prophets, there are another group of God appointed persons called Imams. These are people who are infallible and have access to a knowledge that is not accessible by ordinary people. The world cannot be empty of an Imam otherwise it will be destroyed. In the Islamic context, these individuals are 12 people among the descendants of the Holy Prophet who are appointed by no one but God to lead Muslims. Any one who chooses any leader other than these 12 is misguided and not a complete believer. The twelfth (last) of the above Imams is Mahdi and is alive and in occultation (now) for more than 1000 years and will come out of his occultation when God wants".

Now, i ask once again.

Question 1: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ? Please ONLY give me the verses of Quran with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

As for the AYAHS you pasted:

Verily your master is only Allah, and His messenger and those among the believers who establish worship and pay the poor due while they are bowing down in prayer. (5:55)

First of all the correct translation of the verse is : 005.055

YUSUFALI: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

PICKTHAL: Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

secondly, This verse DOES NOT prove in any sense the above mentioned doctrine.

No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly ground in knowledge. (3:7)

the complete ayah is :

003.007

YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

again i don't see how it is related to the doctrine of shia.

004.059

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

same scenario applies here.

Therefor i repeat my question once again and i hope it is clear for you this time.

Question 1: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ? Please ONLY give me the verses of Quran with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

as for the next question, we'll deal with that later after when we're done with this one.

Thanks.

[Hussain_Abbas]

YUSUFALI: Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

hahhahaha :!!!: :!!!: now Allah is a friend?? what kind of friend wants to be feared, worshipped etc. now r u denying that Allah is our master... is he not our master??? is he mearly our friend???????

Edited May 26, 2004 by Hussain_Abbas

[Julius_Cesar]

Hussain,

I can reply to your post but not in this thread. I do not want ANYONE changing the topic of this thread, therefore if you want, you can open up another thread and there we can discuss this issue.

I request you kindly to not reply to this message in this thread, however u can invite me elsewhere, inshallah i'll reply there.

Thanks.

[Julius_Cesar]

One more humble request to everyone. Please if you do not have anything related to the topic, do not bother wasting your post. It'd be highly appreciated.

[Syed Fahad]

Julius

They will never present any rational and strong argument to convince others of their Doctrine of Imamate due to the fact that non of the verses of the Qur'an explicitly and strongly refer to their Doctrine of Imamate the way it refers to the other Articles of Faith.

The Theory of Imamate only has its strong reference in the traditional and historical sources of Shias and they base their beliefs on these sources instead of basing their beliefs and understanding on Qur'an which is the only complete and perfect source of divine guidance on earth.

Doctrine of Imamate and Doctrine of Trinity are both entirely different concepts since both of them were derived from different sources but still one could draw an analogy between them since both of them are hypothesis ,both Doctrine of Imamate and Trinity are not explicitly established in the Qur'an and Bible and this is the main reason why Shias and Christians are struggling very much to justify and prove these Doctrines from Qur'an and Bible.

[Syed Fahad]

Gulam-e- Abbas

you said:

"Rest assured, no one has a special relationship with Allah. Whoever denies me is not from my (community). The appearance of the Relief (al-Faraj) depends solely upon Allah. Therefore those who propose a certain time for it are liars. As to the benefit of my existence in occultation, it is like the benefit of the sun behind the clouds where the eyes do not see it. Indeed, my existence is an amnesty for the inhabitants of the earth. Pray much to Allah to hasten the Relief, for therein also lies the release from your sufferings."

Answer:

Nice Philosophy Brother but these justifications from you are not strong and rational due to the fact that Sun does not permanently remains behinds the clouds but reveals its true face and it is one of the Great Signs from Allah(swt). If disobedience to Imam-e-Zamana(Mehdi) was equal to the disobedience of Prophets of Allah,then definitely Qur'an would have explicitly mentioned his importance and would have ordered the believers to obey him. If obedience to Imam--e-Zamana(Mehdi) is unconditional ,then how come in the majority of the verses from the Qur'an ,Allah is commanding and ordering the Muslims to obey Allah and his Messengers only?

you said:

Guidance can be of different ways. Do we need to see God to guide us? How about the Prophet who has already passed away?

Answer:

So you are trying to draw an analogy between Allah and Imam which are both entirely different facts? For your kind information We Believers donot need visual eyes to see the existance of Allah since Allah is known through reasons and Qur'an is the main evidence of His existance, in the Qur'an their are many verses of the Qur'an which explicity mentions His name and indirectly draws our attention to the signs in the Universe so that we could understand His Supremacy and Unique attributes. He is the Creator of the Universe and Mankind so the analogy that you are trying to draw between Imam Mehdi and Allah is typically and logically wrong since both of them are entirely different .

God guides us through his final Book the Qur'an which he sent us through Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ,and this divine Book so strongly refers to Him that a believer does not need to look into any other sources except Qur'an inorder to have faith in Him.

The concept of Allah especially the Doctrine of Tawhid is strongly established in the Qur'an and this is the reason why it is our most important Article of Faith.

But non of the verses of the Qur'an even remotely proves the Divine appointment of Imam Mehdi and does not even justify his being in occultation.I really cannot understand what is the difference between having an Imam in occultation and not having Imam in terms of guidance. Is there any standard Tafsirs of Quran and Sunnat among Shia? Of course not, just like the mainstream Muslims they too have their own differences of opinions and disagreements about the meanings of Quran and Sunnat. Isn't it true that when ever I ask a Shia about Imamat in the Quran I receive different answers? So what is the point? Your defending from something that does not even exist. Ayatollah Khoyee says fasting should be started when the moon is seen in any place in the world. Ayatollah Khomeini says fasting should be started only when you can see the moon in you own horizon. Can you go and ask Mahdi to let you know which opinion is correct so that the followers of one of these Mujtaheds could come out from mistake?

[IWN]

Imamate is a fact based on the NEED TO IDENTIFY AND RECOGNIZE Allah.

You cannot recoginze Allah from the Quran alone. If you could, then you would not have debates among "Sunnis" about whether God has hands or a face, or if he sits on a giagantic throne in heaven.

Today, you "Muslims" are little better than Christians or Jews. You think you believe in the same God as them, but YOU CANNOT RECOGNIZE HIM.

Are you better than a Christian, who thinks God has a son, when you think that God has hands like a person? How can you be sure?

It is true that Allah cannot be seen, but He can be recognized IF YOU HAVE THE PROPER DESCRIPTION OF HIM. Unless you have the PROPER DESCRIPTION OF GOD, you cannot recognize Him.

Where to find the proper description? Would Imam Malik give that description, or Imam Shafi?

Why do you have Shafis, Hanafis, Malikis, Hanbalis? Because each one of them has his own idea of WHAT MUHAMMAD pbuh MEANT WHEN HE TAUGHT US ABOUT Allah, and what Allah wants of us.

Hadiths are open to interpretation.

However, how should one get to the proper and correct interpretation?

THIS IS THE QUESTION MANKIND IS FACED WITH.

We reject human interpretation of Quran and Hadith.

We believe Allah has appointed interpreters of Quran and Hadith to guide Man in every age.

Humans are fallible. To interpret the Quran and Hadith, one has to be INFALLIBLE.

It is the most logical thing. And Allah is the most logical.

The Imams are nothing else, but the AhlulBayt. They are the MOST qualified, of ALL OF GOD'S CREATURES, to interpret the Quran and Hadith. BECAUSE THEY SPENT THE MOST TIME WITH THE PROPHET pbuh, THEY GREW UP IN ISLAM, and ISLAM GREW UP IN THEM.

"I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will never go astray, they are the Qur'an and my Ahlul'bayt".

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, page 662-663

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahl al-Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.

I am leaving among you two successors: the Book of Allah, a rope extending from heavens to earth - or between heavens and earth - , and my household (`itra) from my family (Ahl al­Bayt); they shall never separate from each other until they reach me by the Pool."

(Sunnis' Imam Ahmed includes it among the ahadith narrated by Zayd ibn Thabit from two sources one of which is stated at the beginning of page 182, and the other at the conclusion of page 189, Vol. 5, and also by Ibn Abu Shaybah, Abu Ya`li, and Ibn Sa`d, from Abu Sa`id. It is hadith 945 on p. 47, Vol. 1, of Kanz al-`Ummal.

The Quran and the AhlulBayt are INSEPARABLE. The QURAN is in perfect harmony with the AhlulBayt, and the AhlulBayt are in PERFECT harmony with the Quran.

To Interpret the Quran, YOU NEED THE AHLULBAYT.

IF YOU DO IT YOURSELF, YOU ARE WRONG. SHAFI, MALIKI, HANAFI, HANBALI, DID NOT GET PERMISSION FROM THE PROPHET pbuh TO INTERPRET THE QURAN.

THE AHLULBAYT DID.

Why go for something less, when you can have the PERFECT?

Edited May 26, 2004 by IWN

[Julius_Cesar]

Jazak Allah Khairen brother FAHAD. :) As for IWN... i'll get back to you a little bit later today inshallah, or if not me other brothers can go ahead.

[IWN]

Ceasar,

before you 'get back to me',

i suggest you and your friends read the following article on Imamate:

http://www.answering-ansar.org/shia_viewpo...en/en/index.php

[kumayl hassan jaffry]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brothers i plan to add a discussion on imamat more actually imam mahdi (as) soon my previous post was locked due to many people misbehaving i am again facing network problems but one of my dear cousins has requested me to do so and i shall tend to it i think the network is ok now as i am getting good baud rate now please wait all wahabi sunni brothers and shia brothers will be invited (obviously).I am sorry for telling this again and again but please pardon me. (salam)

[Julius_Cesar]

IWN,

  Imamate is a fact based on the NEED TO IDENTIFY AND RECOGNIZE Allah. 

If IMMAMAT is such a cruicial ingredient that according to your philosophy we can not recognize Allah without it, why is it that you can not provide one single AYAH from Quran to prove your argument?

You cannot recoginze Allah from the Quran alone. If you could, then you would not have debates among "Sunnis" about whether God has hands or a face, or if he sits on a giagantic throne in heaven.

Today, you "Muslims" are little better than Christians or Jews. You think you believe in the same God as them, but YOU CANNOT RECOGNIZE HIM.

First of all, what you are pointing out to me is a MINOR issue. Secondly, i don't think you have a clue about the articles of faith in Sunni and Shia. Let me list them for you so that it'd be easier for you to understand and respond.

Articles of faith in the religion i follow:

1. Belief in one God i.e Allah

2. Belief in God's messenger

3. Believe in the day of resurrection

4. Believe in Qadar (i.e. every thing and event has been written).

5. Belief in angels.

etc

Articles of faith in Shia:

1. Belief in one God i.e Allah

2. Divine Justice ('adl)

3. Prophethood

4. Immamat

5. The Day of Judgement and the Resurrection

Now let me tell you. I can provide EXPLICIT verses from the Quran to prove ANY of these articles of faith, without using any hadeeth, personal opinions or tafsir.

And im sure you can do that for at least 4 of them too, but why is it that when it comes to IMMAMAT, you can not prove anything from Quran and you require HADEETH?

It is true that Allah cannot be seen, but He can be recognized IF YOU HAVE THE PROPER DESCRIPTION OF HIM. Unless you have the PROPER DESCRIPTION OF GOD, you cannot recognize Him.

I think that the debate about Allah swt's physical apperance is STUPID, his physical apperance is incomprehensible. secondly, WHO told you that we do not have proper description of Allah? and i'm not asking about the physical appearance. And again if you say that we need imam to guide us to Allah then tell me, how on earth does your Imam Mehdi helps the UMMAH in regards to guidance?

[Julius_Cesar]

Ceasar,

before you 'get back to me',

i suggest you and your friends read the following article on Imamate:

http://www.answering-ansar.org/shia_viewpo...en/en/index.php

IWN,

I have read that article and i can not find anything that might answer my questions. But thanks for pointing it out.

[Julius_Cesar]

Hadiths are open to interpretation.

However, how should one get to the proper and correct interpretation?

THIS IS THE QUESTION MANKIND IS FACED WITH.

We reject human interpretation of Quran and Hadith.

We believe Allah has appointed interpreters of Quran and Hadith to guide Man in every age.

Humans are fallible. To interpret the Quran and Hadith, one has to be INFALLIBLE.

It is the most logical thing. And Allah is the most logical.

furthermore:

The Quran and the AhlulBayt are INSEPARABLE. The QURAN is in perfect harmony with the AhlulBayt, and the AhlulBayt are in PERFECT harmony with the Quran.

To Interpret the Quran, YOU NEED THE AHLULBAYT.

again my answer is:

Quran from the Prophet and Hadeeth is his teachings.

Why only when it comes to Imaamat, we need Hadeeth to help us? We don't need a Hadeeth to understand from Quran that reading prayer, performing Hajj, fasting, Jihad etc. are obligatory upon Muslims. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that a Muslim needs to believe in Oneness of God and his Prophets and the Hereafter. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that God has angels, there were Prophets in the history of mankind and some of them had books, and that the destiny of man is in the hands of God. All of the sudden when it comes to Imaamat, Hadeeth becomes a vital tool to understand Quran . Quran how ever does not need a tool to be understandable. It is written in Quran that this book has been made easy to get guidance from. It is true that the Prophet explains certain verses of Quran but explaining is different from interpreting. Explaining means giving the details. Interpreting means giving the meaning. Quran needs no tool to be meaningful otherwise it wasn't the book of guidance. Also there are many contradictory Hadeeth in explaining verses of Quran and at the end of the day it is impossible to verify exactly which ones are authentic. How could God expect people of our time to use Hadeeth to understand the MEANING of Quran? Is this the way that God says in Quran that Truth and False are separated and clear evidences have been shown? I don't think so.

[IWN]

First of all, what you are pointing out to me is a MINOR issue. Secondly, i don't think you have a clue about  the articles of faith in Sunni and Shia.  Let me list them for you so that it'd be easier for you to understand and respond.

So recognition of Allah is a minor issue to you?

To us, it is the biggest issue.

Why? Because anyone can easily say "I believe in One God." But which One God is it? Is it the one god of the Christians? or that of the Jews? is it the Zoroastrian one god, Mazda? does that one God have hands and feet, like some Salafi say? Do you condemn those Salafis for their Shirk? Yet they call themselves Sunnis!

Don't you see where this blindness leads to? Don't you see the consequences of interpreting the Quran by yourself?

On the surface, it seems as if our God is the same as the Christian, or Jewish God. But in reality, He is totally different! Our God is not the same as the Christian or Jewish god! Do you know why? Because they have warped their idea of God, which is NOT IN LINE WITH REALITY.

Similarly, the idea of God that some Salafis have, is NOT IN LINE WITH REALITY. And my point is not about merely Salafi, but all those people, Sunni or otherwise, who HAVE FAILED TO LEARN FROM THE ONLY VALID SOURCE OF LEARNING.

This is not about physical appearance. It is about how you got to know God.

It is about how to approach God.

It is about knowing what God wants you to know.

It is about knowing how God prefers you to supplicate.

It is about knowing how God wants you to THINK OF HIM, IN YOUR HEART.

It is about perceiving God.

RECOGNITION OF GOD IS THE BASIC ISSUE, FROM WHICH ALL OTHER ISSUES EMANATE!

Don't you see, this is the what divides Jews, Christians, Sunnis, and Shias!

Just like Muslims say that Christians have a wrong idea of God, due to their wrong approach to learn about him, we Shia say that you Sunnis have a wrong idea of God, because of your WRONG APPROACH TO LEARN ABOUT HIM!

When you Sunnis talk to God, it is not very different from a Jew or Christian is talking to him! Because you learn from UNQUALIFIED SOURCES!

Edited May 26, 2004 by IWN

[kumayl hassan jaffry]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Before tending to t two questions i would like to give a few advices to my muslim brothers:

1)Free youreselves from taasub (contempt)

2)Free youreselves from secterianism.

When you will do that your eyes will open to a clearly new world you will see a different facet of the jewel that is called islam (subhan Allah) that facet is the one your intellect will show you an intellect that was previously void because of your contempt and secterianism.Believe me i have tried it.There is my well respected quote(in my family):"If shias have something good the others must respect it if the non shias have something good the shias must respect it".Believe me when i say that prior to a discussion the other person always looks at my talk with an open mind try it.

Islam presents a very clear view about heaven and hell.The problem starts when ill literate mullahs start feeding in people minds that the non shias are on the wrong path(if the non shia is an enemy of ahlul bait then he certainly is a jahanamee) or when they say that if you will kill a shia you will go to heaven.So what happens is that all the people start relentlessly refuting other people's beliefs even if they have no proof because they think that by adopting the good virtues of another sect is wrong.So my brothers come out of it.

Now i come to the reply.

Question 1: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ? Please ONLY give me the verses of Quran with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

I am a shia i offer prayer with open hands and do "rafah yadain" and all other things you sunni brothers fasten your hands and you have your own ways.

Give me clear verses which approve even to one of the sects ways that you should do all that in this manner?I am not saying that the doctrine of imamat is not in the quran what i am trying to imply that even the biggest service such as namaz is not clearly described and the rasool Allah pbuh did its "taweel" so is the imamah the rasool Allah pbuh did its "taweel" even the sunni books say it.

Secondly why do not you want any translation or commentory?certainly the aalims who have done these commentories were more erudite than you and me and i accept what they say if you as sunnis tell somebody a translation of the verses of quran who does not knows arabic to support your views what are you doing right there?Dont tell me that you can understand the clear meanings and all meanings of the quran no ordinary man can do that.That is where the commentory is required and the best commentory is that which rasool Allah did(see my upcoming post).Allah says :"and take what ever the prophet gives you and abstain from whatever he wants to keep you from.Will you not take what the prophet pbuh says?What you are trying to do is confuse others which is not possible if the listeners are rational.Allah says :and there is not even a single thing but whose mentioning is in this book.So tell me can you show me the names of for example different countries of the world?It certainly requires a lot of knowledge to get to that point when you can interpret it that is the concept of imams (as) according to meand the shia sunni alims they (as) are those (as) which are given knowledge of "wahbi" they know better than the people they are with the quran and the quran is with them.Now look at the interpretations of the verses of quran related to ahlul bait and imams (as) if still you do not believe then it is futile to debate with you.

Question 2: How does the current Imaam leads Shia?

To put this question to better sentence:How does a ghaib imam (as) guide his followers?Right?

Tell me your heaven is ghaib,your hell is ghaib,your angels are ghaib,the questions of the grave and its frights are a matter of ghaib,etc,etc, how do these things guide you?When you hear of the heaven you think that it is a befitting place to be and you should try to enter it,when you hear of hell you fell shivers down your spine and sware that you will try to aviod it,and so on.The concept of the last imam (as) is not limited to being a wordly caliph and leader (Like most of the accusers think) he has other duties and those are a matter of ghaib i am no one to debate on that.When we hear that a man from the ahlul bait (as) of the prophet will come nad he will be the chosen one of the god all bad will be vanquished annd good will prevail all bad people will die and all good people will remain with him and plus his towering personality and the love of ahlul bait ll this factors lead us to better deeds because we do not want to be from the ones who will be against him at the time of his revealation and in this way it acts as another factor which helps us to guidance.As for the meeting peolpe in person he actually does that (wait for my post).

I think other of my brothers presented good answers as well.This is an intellectual point of view since brother ceaser(roman king?????) wanted it (Since quran can only be understood with narrations or intellect).

[shia4life]

Salaam alaikum

Below is something Bro Orion wrote regarding Imamate a while ago, i hope he doesnt mind me posting it, please read it if you want to gain any knowledge.

Brothers and Sisters,

Salam o Alekum,

Some time ago a person who calls himself "Student" and sometimes "Abdullah" and sometimes "X-Shia" asked a question: [b:post_uid0]Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran?[/b:post_uid0]

He said he does not want to hear any hadith, he wants evidence from Quran only.

I am not an Alim but this was my reply:

[b:post_uid0]IMAMS APPOINTED BY Allah - A QURANIC DOCTRINE[/b:post_uid0]

********************************************

According to our belief Imamate or Khalafat is not an acquired job; it is a 'designation' bestowed by Allah.

It is for this reason that the we believe that only Allah can appoint an  successor to the Prophet (Imam or Khalifa); that the ummah has no choice in this matter-its only duty is to follow such a divinely-appointed Imam or caliph.

The following verses of the Qur'an confirm the views held by the Shi'ahs:

Allah said to Prophet Ibrahim (as):

(Allah) said: " [b:post_uid0]Surely I am going to make you an IMAM for men.[/b:post_uid0]. " (Ibrahim) said: "And of my offspring?" He said: "My covenant will not include the unjust " (Quran 2 : 124)

This verse leads us to the correct answers of many important questions concerning Imamate.

Allah said: "Surely I am going to make you an IMAM for men. " This shows that Imamate is a divinely-appointed status; it is beyond the jurisdiction of the ummah.

[b:post_uid0]And thy Lord creates what He wills and chooses; they have no right to choose; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate![/b:post_uid0] (Quran28:68).

This clearly shows that man has no right to make any selection; it lies entirely in the hands of Allah.

Before creating Adam (as), Allah informed the angels:

"And when your Lord said to the angels, [b:post_uid0]I am going to place in the earth a khalifa[/b:post_uid0], they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know". Quran 2:30

And when the angels demurred politely at the scheme, their protest was brushed aside by a curt reply: "Surely I know what you know not" (al-Quran). If the ma'sum (infallible) angels were given no say in the appointment of a caliph, how can fallible humans expect to take the whole authority of such an appointment in their own hands?

Allah Himself appointed Prophet Dawud (as) as caliph on the earth-

"O Dawood ! surely [b:post_uid0]We have made you a Khalifa in the land[/b:post_uid0]; so judge between men with justice and do not follow desire, lest it should lead you astray from the path of Allah; (as for) those who go astray from the path of Allah, they shall surely have a severe punishment because they forgot the day of reckoning". Quran 38:26

In every case Allah attributes the appointment of the caliph or the Imam exclusively to Himself.

Then as a general rule, it is stated:

" [b:post_uid0]And We made them a’imata’n (IMAMs) , guiding (men) by Our Command[/b:post_uid0], and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only)". Quran 21:73

And also:

"[b:post_uid0]And We appointed, from among them a’imata’n (IMAMs), giving guidance under Our command[/b:post_uid0], so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs". Quran 032.024

When Prophet Musa (as) wanted a vizier to help him with his responsibilities, he did not appoint someone by his own authority. He prayed to Allah: "[b:post_uid0]And make for me a vizier from my family, Harun (Aaron) my brother[/b:post_uid0]" (Quran 20:29-30). And Allah said:

"You are indeed granted your petition, O Musa!" (Quran 20:36).

According to our belief that Divine selection is made known to the ummah through the prophet or the preceding Imam. This declaration is called nass (specification; determination; designation of the succeeding Imam by the prophet or preceding Imam). An Imam according to our belief, must be mansus min Allah, i.e., designated by Allah for that status.

[b:post_uid0]NOT ALL IMAMS THAT Allah APPOINTS ARE PROPHETS -  A QURANIC DOCTRINE[/b:post_uid0]

************************************************

(Allah appoints Imams that are other than Prophets?)

In the previous section I have shown that Allah appointed Imams, Khalifas and Leaders. They were all Prophets. The question is Does Allah appoints other than Prophets?

Let us see:

"O you who believe! [b:post_uid0]obey [/b:post_uid0]Allah and obey the Apostle and [b:post_uid0]Ulul Amr[/b:post_uid0] (those in authority from among you); then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. Quran 4:59

-Obey Allah.

-Obey Prophet

-Obey Ulul Amr????????? Who is this third person, who is not a prophet, that we should obey?

We also find in QURAN:

"Their Prophet said to them: "[b:post_uid0]God hath appointed Talut as king over you[/b:post_uid0]." They said: "[i:post_uid0]How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority[/i:post_uid0], and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "[b:post_uid0]God hath Chosen him [/b:post_uid0]above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: [b:post_uid0]God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth[/b:post_uid0]. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things." Quran 2:247

God chose Talut. And God gave him Authority. Talut as we all know was not a Prophet.

Here people protested, but Allah said that he chose Talut and gave him authority, and they have no choice, no say.

From these two Ayats we learn that Allah also choses himself and gives authority to people other than Prophets.

[b:post_uid0]FUTURE APPOINTMENT OF IMAMS AND KHALIFAS BY Allah - A QURANIC DOCTRINE[/b:post_uid0]

**************************************************

So far we have seen that Allah used to appoint Imams, Khalifs, Leaders and Rulers in the past. How about the Future? Will He be the one appointing them or will the rules change?

Allah says:

"[b:post_uid0]And We wished to do a favour to those who were weak (and oppressed) in the land, and to make them a'imata'n (IMAMs) and to make them the inheritors[/b:post_uid0]," Quran 28:05.

Also:

"Say: Obey Allah and obey the Apostle; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the Apostle but clear delivering (of the message)."

"[b:post_uid0]Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them[/b:post_uid0], and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the transgressors." Quran 24:54-55

Again we see that "HE made rulers before" and He will make rulers in future. Certainly this Ayat is about the time after our Prophet (SAWW).

Humans will be called on the Jugement Day with their respective Imams.

"[b:post_uid0]One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) IMAMS[/b:post_uid0]: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.  Quran 17:071

Also Allah made a covenant (promise) with Prophet Ibrahim (as) to make Imams in his generation:

(Allah) said: " [b:post_uid0]Surely I am going to make you an IMAM for men." (Ibrahim) said: "And of my offspring?" He said: "My covenant will not include the unjust.[/b:post_uid0] " (Quran 2:124)

Allah will make IMAMs from the offspring of Ibrahim (as) but they will not be from the unjust. This is ALLAHs promise for the future.

[b:post_uid0]IMAMs FOR EVERY PEOPLE - A QURANIC DOCTRINE[/b:post_uid0]

******************************************

There are Imams (guides) for every people. The ship (Ummah) is always with a Captin (Imam). Allah does not leave humans without a living Imam (guide).

Allah says in Quran:

And the disbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and [b:post_uid0]to every people there is a guide[/b:post_uid0]. Quran 13:7

Again humans will be called on the Jugement Day with their respective Imams.

"[b:post_uid0]One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) IMAMs[/b:post_uid0]: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.  Quran 17:071

[b:post_uid0]IMAMs AND KHALIFAS APPOINTED BY Allah ARE INFALLIBLE (SINLESS) - A QURANIC DOCTRINE[/b:post_uid0]

*************************************************

Allah Appoints the Imams, Khalifas and Rulers. How about the un-just, sinful non-masoom Rulers and Khalifas. Did Allah appoint them on us. Should we obey them?

He tells us to “ [b:post_uid0]obey Allah and obey the Apostle and Ulul Amr (those in authority from among you)[/b:post_uid0] (see Quran 4:59) BUT He puts a condition. He does not appoint Imams, Khalifas, Rulers who are sinners or un-just.

"Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and [b:post_uid0]obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one[/b:post_uid0]." al-Quran 76:24

Also as I have quoted earlier Allah says to Abraham that He will appoint Imams from his offspring, BUT this promise will not be for evil-doers:

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an IMAMs to the Nations." [b:post_uid0]He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers[/b:post_uid0]." Quran 2:124

In other words Khalifas and Imams appointed by Allah are sin-less Masooms.

SubhanAllah

------------------------------

Note: I have nothing against Brother "Student" / "Abdullah" / "X-Shia". I just wanted to share my reply with other brothers and sisters so that we may all benefit from it. 

Khuda Hafiz

W'Salaams

[Syed Fahad]

Answering IWN

you said:

You cannot recoginze Allah from the Quran alone. If you could, then you would not have debates among "Sunnis" about whether God has hands or a face, or if he sits on a giagantic throne in heaven.

Answer:

For your kind information, Qur'an clearly establishes the existance of Allah and Doctrine of Tawhid(Unity of Allah) and no muslim has any doubt on either of them, the issue of the location and physical appearance of Allah is open for discussion and doesnot effect our Article of Faith regarding Doctrine of Tawhid since all the Muslims whether shia ,sunni or subsects of sunnis have no problem in accepting the existance of Allah and Tawhid.

As far as the matter of recognizing Allah is concerned, Qur'an gives us clear hints and indications which help us to recognize Allah and draws our attention to the signs of Allah in the Universe and we have to use our reasoning power and judgment to understand and recognize Him,if you think that Qur'an is not enough for us on the recognition of Allah ,than you are putting your belief on Qur'an under question?

The issue under consideration is the existance of Imam Mehdi ,not his location or phyiscal apperance.

you said:

Today, you "Muslims" are little better than Christians or Jews. You think you believe in the same God as them, but YOU CANNOT RECOGNIZE HIM.

Are you better than a Christian, who thinks God has a son, when you think that God has hands like a person? How can you be sure?

Answer:

Nice allegations brother but these are nothing but your misconception.For your kind information their is a huge difference between the Christians and General Muslims belief on the concept of God , since Christians belief in God is based on the Doctrine of Trinity but Muslims reject this Doctrine because this concept includes plurity of God which is equal to shirk, Muslims believe in complete Monotheism which is clearly established by Qur'an ,the other reason why we reject the Concept of Trinity because it is not established in the Bible neither in any of the previous revelations and this is the reason why Qur'an does not support this concept since Qur'an itself is the continuation of the previous revelation.

you said:

It is true that Allah cannot be seen, but He can be recognized IF YOU HAVE THE PROPER DESCRIPTION OF HIM. Unless you have the PROPER DESCRIPTION OF GOD, you cannot recognize Him.

Answer:

This shows your misconception regarding the concept of God in Islam, you are trying to devalue the position of Allah by bringing Him equal to his creatures, for your kind information, God does not possess any physical appearance like Imams,how could you describe Him?

Qur'an does not give any clear information regarding the description of Allah how can you describe something which doesnot have any physical appearance? can you describe kindness in physical terms, can you describe justice in physical terms?Inorder to define and recognize kindness and justice ,we need examples because their is no other way to define them.

In the case of Allah(swt) ,we donot have any information regarding the Physical appearance in Qur'an neither in the previous revelations so the question of describing Allah to recognize Him is completely useless, inorder to recognize Allah we need to ponder over and pay heed to His signs in the Universe which are clear evidence for His existance.Brother inorder to believe in the existence of Allah ,we donot need to know about his description since ,the Doctrine of Tawhid and the concept of Hujjat from Allah is enough to convince a believer.

you said:

I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will never go astray, they are the Qur'an and my Ahlul'bayt".

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, page 662-663

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahl al-Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.

I am leaving among you two successors: the Book of Allah, a rope extending from heavens to earth - or between heavens and earth - , and my household (`itra) from my family (Ahl alBayt); they shall never separate from each other until they reach me by the Pool."

(Sunnis' Imam Ahmed includes it among the ahadith narrated by Zayd ibn Thabit from two sources one of which is stated at the beginning of page 182, and the other at the conclusion of page 189, Vol. 5, and also by Ibn Abu Shaybah, Abu Ya`li, and Ibn Sa`d, from Abu Sa`id. It is hadith 945 on p. 47, Vol. 1, of Kanz al-`Ummal.

Answer:

It is quiet surprising to note that inorder to support your Doctrine of Imamate you need the help of hadiths and traditional sources. Is your Doctrine of Imamate so weak that you cannot explain it without the help of hadiths and other sources? Do you need hadiths to explain the concept of Tawhid, Prophethood and Ma’ad(Day of Judgment)?Also let me put it into your knowledge that the narrations regarding the Ahl’l Baith are not reported in more reliable sources of hadith

[Ayatollah Malang]

Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?

[2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

[3:33] Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.

[19:53] And We gave to him out of Our mercy his brother Haroun a prophet.

[20:29] And give to me an aider from my family:

[ 20:30] Haroun, my brother,

[ 20:31] Strengthen my back by him,

[ 20:32] And associate him (with me) in my affair,

[25:35] And certainly We gave Musa the Book and We appointed with him his brother Haroun an aider.

[13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

[Ayatollah Malang]

Answering IWN

you said:

You cannot recoginze Allah from the Quran alone. If you could, then you would not have debates among "Sunnis" about whether God has hands or a face, or if he sits on a giagantic throne in heaven.

Answer:

For your kind information, Qur'an clearly establishes the existance of Allah and Doctrine of Tawhid(Unity of Allah) and no muslim has any doubt on either of them, the issue of the location and physical appearance of Allah is open for discussion and doesnot effect our Article of Faith regarding Doctrine of Tawhid since all the Muslims whether shia ,sunni or subsects of sunnis have no problem in accepting the existance of Allah and Tawhid.

As far as the matter of recognizing Allah is concerned, Qur'an gives us clear hints and indications which help us to recognize Allah and draws our attention to the signs of Allah in the Universe and we have to use our reasoning power and judgment to understand and recognize Him,if you think that Qur'an is not enough for us on the recognition of Allah ,than you are putting your belief on Qur'an under question?

"Fear Allah and find a wasila to him (5:35)".

The definition of wasila is 'a means of approach', so worship is not direct - it is attained via a means of approach, a guide. Remember Allah (swt) is not telling you to create a wasila, he is telling you to find it. So it exists, it is down to you to find it. For mankind that wasila can only be through a fellow human being, we have no contact with jinns' and therefore they cannot act as a wasila.

"The religion will continue to be established till the hour comes as there are twelve Caliphs over them, everyone of them coming from the Quraish".Mishkat al Masabih: (Vol 4 p 576), Hadith 5

Abu Bakr said: "No one will be able to cross the Sirat (Path) leading to Heaven on the Day of Judgement unless he gets the stamp of Ali".

Al Sawaiqh al Muhriqa, by Ahmad Ibn Hajar al Makki, page 126 (A book written against the Shi'a) ;)

[Syed Fahad]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Before tending to t two questions i would like to give a few advices to my muslim brothers:

1)Free youreselves from taasub (contempt)

2)Free youreselves from secterianism.

When you will do that your eyes will open to a clearly new world you will see a different facet of the jewel that is called islam (subhan Allah) that facet is the one your intellect will show you an intellect that was previously void because of your contempt and secterianism.Believe me i have tried it.There is my well respected quote(in my family):"If shias have something good the others must respect it if the non shias have something good the shias must respect it".Believe me when i say that prior to a discussion the other person always looks at my talk with an open mind try it.

Islam presents a very clear view about heaven and hell.The problem starts when ill literate mullahs start feeding in people minds that the non shias are on the wrong path(if the non shia is an enemy of ahlul bait then he certainly is a jahanamee) or when they say that if you will kill a shia you will go to heaven.So what happens is that all the people start relentlessly refuting other people's beliefs even if they have no proof because they think that by adopting the good virtues of another sect is wrong.So my brothers come out of it.

Now i come to the reply.

Question 1: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ? Please ONLY give me the verses of Quran with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

I am a shia i offer prayer with open hands and do "rafah yadain" and all other things you sunni brothers fasten your hands and you have your own ways.

Give me clear verses which approve even to one of the sects ways that you should do all that in this manner?I am not saying that the doctrine of imamat is not in the quran what i am trying to imply that even the biggest service such as namaz is not clearly described and the rasool Allah pbuh did its "taweel" so is the imamah the rasool Allah pbuh did its "taweel" even the sunni books say it.

Secondly why do not you want any translation or commentory?certainly the aalims who have done these commentories were more erudite than you and me and i accept what they say if you as sunnis tell somebody a translation of the verses of quran who does not knows arabic to support your views what are you doing right there?Dont tell me that you can understand the clear meanings and all meanings of the quran no ordinary man can do that.That is where the commentory is required and the best commentory is that which rasool Allah did(see my upcoming post).Allah says :"and take what ever the prophet gives you and abstain from whatever he wants to keep you from.Will you not take what the prophet pbuh says?What you are trying to do is confuse others which is not possible if the listeners are rational.Allah says :and there is not even a single thing but whose mentioning is in this book.So tell me can you show me the names of for example different countries of the world?It certainly requires a lot of knowledge to get to that point when you can interpret it that is the concept of imams (as) according to meand the shia sunni alims they (as) are those (as) which are given knowledge of "wahbi" they know better than the people they are with the quran and the quran is with them.Now look at the interpretations of the verses of quran related to ahlul bait and imams (as) if still you do not believe then it is futile to debate with you.

Question 2: How does the current Imaam leads Shia?

To put this question to better sentence:How does a ghaib imam (as) guide his followers?Right?

Tell me your heaven is ghaib,your hell is ghaib,your angels are ghaib,the questions of the grave and its frights are a matter of ghaib,etc,etc, how do these things guide you?When you hear of the heaven you think that it is a befitting place to be and you should try to enter it,when you hear of hell you fell shivers down your spine and sware that you will try to aviod it,and so on.The concept of the last imam (as) is not limited to being a wordly caliph and leader (Like most of the accusers think) he has other duties and those are a matter of ghaib i am no one to debate on that.When we hear that a man from the ahlul bait (as) of the prophet will come nad he will be the chosen one of the god all bad will be vanquished annd good will prevail all bad people will die and all good people will remain with him and plus his towering personality and the love of ahlul bait ll this factors lead us to better deeds because we do not want to be from the ones who will be against him at the time of his revealation and in this way it acts as another factor which helps us to guidance.As for the meeting peolpe in person he actually does that (wait for my post).

I think other of my brothers presented good answers as well.This is an intellectual point of view since brother ceaser(roman king?????) wanted it (Since quran can only be understood with narrations or intellect).

Again brother you are repeating the same argument. You are trying to compare Imamate with Prayer which are both entirely different concepts, Imamate is an Article of Faith in your Doctrine where as Prayer is a fundamental Pillar of Islam.

If you think that Qur'an is not enough on the importance of Prayer than this is your misconception since their are more than 90 verses in the Qur'an which strongly and explicitly refers to Prayer and no believer with even a fraction of faith in his heart would reject it and these verses clearly mentions the importance of Prayer and one does not need any hadith inorder to understand the importance of prayer, Qur'an is silent on the method of Prayer this is the reason why we need hadiths to understand the method but the importance and necessasity of prayer is mentioned in the Qur'an, if you really want to make a comparison ,than compare one Article of Faith with another, donot compare a Pillar of Islam with an Article of Faith. i want to ask you brother that do you need to refer to hadiths and prayer inorder to understand the concept and importance of Prophethood, Tawheed and Ma'ad(Day of Judgment)?

[Ayatollah Malang]

According to shia tawil, Imamate and salat is the same. :) so get your facts right you dushman e waliyat e amril mominen :!!!:

What is with you nasibis always against Imamate, and not other 4 shia pillars, is it because you cannot proove the "guideingship" of the 3 "caliphs" from our sources or the quran. :rolleyes:

Edited May 26, 2004 by Ayatollah Malang

[Ayatollah Malang]

Okay here is a challenge, proove to me that Allah left us aimless, and gave us the right to choose our own leaders, and then i will become nasibi like you guyz! ^_^

[maysamopm]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Where do we find Imamah in the quran firstly?

Secondly why is there no general understanding on the idea of Imamat across the muslim ummah? for example the people who refuse to follow the 12 Imams (as) believe we should follow khalifs or anohter set of imams or other leaders and further difference is created upon the character of these leaders and their qualities which allow them to be Imams/Guides/Khalifs

Although all these differences exist all of these different schools with different understandings actually claim ot follow the Quran and further so back up claims using Quranic ayats.

However, this is not the only article of faith that is mentioned in the Quran many times over but the muslims still differ in its understanding;

Tawheed (oneness of God) most muslims will say is the fundemental belief of Islam, probably the most important Pillar of this deen. It is mentioned in Quran in so many places so clearly, but when we come to examine the idea of tawheed according to the muslim understanding across the ummah we will see that there is NO general consensus on this very important pillar of our deen. You will see muslims differ on important atributes of tawheed such as Justice, whether or not Allah can be seen, if Allah has physical Attributes, if Allah sits on a throne or where is his throne and many more differences in thought regarding the same Pillar of faith that is mentioned clearly in the Quran. i wish to ask if it is so clear in the Quran then why the differences in understanding and adherence?

now we move onto Nubuwat (Prophethood) another article of faith described in much detail in the Quran but still amongst muslims of the past and present there have been so many different ideas on the Personalities of Prophets, Infallibility, age of prophethood, nature of prophetic mission, some muslims say the Prophet Muhammad(saws) was affected by black magic or wanted to commit suicide or was forgetful in his nature while teaching the deen and many other inconsistencies which arise on this very Article of faith accepted by all muslims, and mentioned in Quran so clearly but still we have differences and they are major differences which outline the borders of different schools of thought.

these are 2 of the biggest articles of faith mentioned so clearly in Quran but still we see that across the whole muslim ummah there rests NO general consensus and NO general chain of thinking pertaining to these 2 issues and also many others. Pretty much all the main articles of faith bear these kind of inconsistensies and such among the muslims.

First of all we must not get arrogant and try to ignore differences or say they do not exist or to think that anybody who differs with the thinking of My Madhab or School is an ignorant person or does not know what is Islam, this is a shaytanic way of thinking and please dont become tempted by it.

now after seeing all these differences on those articles of faith then why is it so difficult for us to accept that differences will exist on the subject of Imamat, even in the shia school where Imamah is tought as the Pillar of Faith it still has different understandings but it is very wrong for people from other schools to claim that Imamat is not a "Pillar" of faith just because they were not taught it as such. The mere ignorance of a matter cannot justify its dismissal.

Imamat is an important a Pillar of faith because it encapsulates the succession to the Prophet (saws) and the continued guidance from Allah and also a purpose to our very existance as we await our Saviour Imam Mahdi (may Allah hasten his return)

now to bring the discussion back to the original question of where is Imamah found in the quran?

again i emphasise that just because something is mentioned in the Quran we will all have the same understanding of it and thus i will present some of the many verses relating to Imamah in the Quran but i do not expect you to suddenly accept this pillar of faith just by reading this, however i do wish you understand that Imamah is something Real it exists and it can be proven from Quran AND SUNNAH (oh yes well i'm pretty sure even you accept the Sunnah but i see that when it is to your benefit you suddenly become a Quranite and dismiss the sunnah) but however this is not important now as we have justifiably explained why differences exist in Articles of Faith explained in Quran and thus we will stick to the Quran to answer this question.

( all quranic references are taken from this website and the shakir translation http://www.al-islam.org/quran/ )

[Quran 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

[Quran 2:3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.

[Quran 2:4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.

[Quran 2:5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.

in aya 2:2 above we see that the following verses are in reference to a people "who guard (against evil)" and in arabic they are called the "Mutaqeen"

and we see these people described further in the following ayats i have pasted and finally in aya 2:5 they are said to be the people "on a right course from their Lord"

now lets lok at this aya:

[Quran 25:74] And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides(Imams) to those who guard (against evil).

here we see that Allah is being asked to provide "guides" or in Arabic the word "Imam" is used, but guides for whom? reading further we see that these guides are for "those who guard (against evil)" again the "Mutaqeen" are mentioned here, but in Suran Baqarah verses 2-5 above we see that these "Mutaqeen" are described with great attributes and are confirmed in aya 2:5 to be "on a right course from their Lord" but WHY then do these people require a Guide?

this is because the doctrine of Guidance (Imamah) is a divinely ordained concept and we see evidence of this from the above aya, that even those "mutaqeen" require a guide and those guides must surely know how to guide.

now we turn to a different aya in sura Baqara this time regarding the Great Prophet Ibraheem (as):

[Quran 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

we all know the stories of Ibraheem (as) and how he went through many trials and difficulties where he was tested by Allah in certain tasks, such as the sacrifice of his son and his trials with the polytheists. it is also common knowledge that Ibraheem (as) did not have children until a very late stage in his life and thus the aya above where Ibraheem (as) questions for his offspring at the end of the verse surely relates to the latter stages of the Prophet's life when he had already undergone many trials, hence "he fulfilled them. He(Allah) said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men" for then Allah raised his status even higher. then the ayah comes to a close by Allah confiriming that Unjust poeple will never reach this stage of Imamat and it is only for those who after Ibraheem (as) are also of a Just nature.

now further we look at some ayas that place emphasis on Allah deciding who the Imams are and Allah is appointing them to guide:

[Quran 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

in this aya we see Allah says "WE made" so it is very clear to see the order of Imamah comes from Allah and thus they also guide by the commands of Allah.

[Quran 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

again another aya emphasising on the appointment of Imams By Allah and only to him do they serve (thus a reasonable example to show that Imams can have an infallible nature if they only serve Allah then it means they do not serve the shaytaan, but that is not the purpose if this discussion)

[Quran 28:5] And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs,

again Allah makes those Oppressed people who were deemed weak into Imams and makes them the heirs.

[Quran 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a with unjustly.

Allah will Raise People with their Imam, and Allah also tells us they will not be dealt with unjustly.

[Quran 13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

from this aya we can see that the Prophet (saws) is talked about here as a "warner" and that after him there is a "guide" for EVERY person until the day of Judgement (this is a logical deduction due to the fact that on the day of judgement the need for guidance will cease to exist and thus until then there is a guide for all people) not diverting the topic but there have been hadith's that clearly state the Prophet(saws) saying he is the Warner and Ali (as) is the Guide.

we go further now:

[Quran 20:82] And most surely I am most Forgiving to him who repents and believes and does good, then continues to follow the right direction.

in this verse we see Allah is telling us of noble traits of those favoured by Allah, they are said to Repent, Believe, Do Good and finally "follow the right direction" after all they have done in repenting and believing and doing good Allah is still asking these people to follow the right path?? which path is this? which direction is this? in the tafseer books we come to read that Ali(as) and his wilayah is the right direction.

[Quran 9:119] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones.

Here Allah is talking to the BELIEVERS i.e. "momin's" not just anybody or just muslims but the "believers", people who already believe and seem to be on a right path but then Allah carries on in this aya to say "be careful of (your duty to) Allah and be with the true ones" if they already believe and are "momin" howcome Allah is telling them to be with the "True Ones", who are these true ones? and what aid do they provide to people who are already "momin",

thus i think by now it is becoming clear that Allah places an elite set of people whose purpose is to guide all people even upto the degree of a "momin" and these people are reffered to as Imams.

and also i would like to place emphasis on the nature of this reply, in the initial post and whenever this topic "Imamah in Quran" is brought up, The Quran is dismissed to being a mere book of text that has no deeper meaning and thus answers are required with no hadith no interpretation no nothing just text, i am sorry but this is not a correct stance to take when refferring to the most perfect book ever to meet mankind, we only need to read such verses:

[Quran 75:18] Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

[Quran 75:19] Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

so u see "recitation" is one part of Quran but there is also an explanation and there is an "us" in the aya reffering to those who explain it, now who may those people be? again mentioned in the following verse:

[Quran 3:7] ....none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

the case for a group after the Prophet(saws) as guides and Imams strengthens and we see that without them the Quran is merely something which is recited with no explanation and no understanding and there is another body that even those who are "momin" and those "who guard (against evil)" must adhere to so that they can be succesful on the day of judgement and stay on a straight course.

who is this body and what are they called, i think here it is important to make reference to hadith Thaqalayn where the Prophet (saws) mentioned that the 2 weighty things that would deliver you to salvation are the Quran and the People of his Household (his Ahlul Bayt) and we can go further using other verses such as 4:59 and 5:55 to expand on this but that is not the purpose of this thread, i merely point this out for those who have open hearts and are willing to find the truth and are seeking with true intentions inshAllah.

there is enough light in the quran and the verses i bring forward are a few of many but as i said before it is not for the purpose to convince you that my understanding is correct u have Aql and Reason to decide but never again should you claim that the beliefs of the shia are baseless and not Quranic they are 100% Quranic, now how u interpret them is up to you and just like i said on the other articles of faith differences exist and thus it is natural on this one also that differences will arise in the muslim ummah.

lastly i would like to say that i wish not to take credit for any good that is contained in my post as this firstly comes from Allah and knowledgeable people such as on this board whom i learn from, subsequently anything negative or bad contianed in my post is from my own ignorance and my own inability to distinguish good from evil.

Peace be on you all and InshaAllah you read this with an open heart and try to really do it for the sake of learning and not to just prove points for the sake of points.

wasalam

[maysamopm]

oh yes and a short note to add to your second question is that the current Imam Mahdi (as) is not just an Imam to the Shia but an Imam for All Mankind.

the way he leads has already been firmly been established by the previous Imams (as) but i dont wish to address this topic in this thread coz its a whole other discussion maybe in a new thread one time inshAllah, as if u see from my previous posts im not really a hardcore debator i just want to learn inshAllah and whenever i have the chance inshAllah i try to share what i have learnt with others :) for the Sake Of Allah ofcourse and forever inshAllah

[kumayl hassan jaffry]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother syed fahad wrote:

Again brother you are repeating the same argument. You are trying to compare Imamate with Prayer which are both entirely different concepts, Imamate is an Article of Faith in your Doctrine where as Prayer is a fundamental Pillar of Islam.

If you think that Qur'an is not enough on the importance of Prayer than this is your misconception since their are more than 90 verses in the Qur'an which strongly and explicitly refers to Prayer and no believer with even a fraction of faith in his heart would reject it and these verses clearly mentions the importance of Prayer and one does not need any hadith inorder to understand the importance of prayer, Qur'an is silent on the method of Prayer this is the reason why we need hadiths to understand the method but the importance and necessasity of prayer is mentioned in the Qur'an, if you really want to make a comparison ,than compare one Article of Faith with another, donot compare a Pillar of Islam with an Article of Faith. i want to ask you brother that do you need to refer to hadiths and prayer inorder to understand the concept and importance of Prophethood, Tawheed and Ma'ad(Day of Judgment)?

The discussion here is not what is what and whether they compare to each other or not.I dont know if that is presented before or not.What you were asking was that to show clear cut references of imams in the quran and what i told you that not even about the different "PROBLEMS" (masail) of namaz does the quran tells clearly only the prophet pbuh interpreted it (from the quran or the revealation which was in other forms and told us that.Right or wrong?I dont see why you dont get it.Ok so there are ninty verses but what i was telling you that does anyone clearly tell you to fasten your hands or leave them open and do things like that.One of our shia brother was telling me about a verse which had a relation to open handed prayer but that verse needs more research i plan to do it.Now the next sentence is important "WE DO NOT RELY ON AHADITHS TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF ISLAMIC LAWS THE QURAN IS ENOUGH TO TELL US ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF ISLAMIC BELIEFS (if you think that i believe otherwise then it is you who is misconcepted) WE TAKE AHADITHS TO DESCRIBE THE VARIOUS ASPECTS OF THE IMPORTANT LAWS.THe importance of imams is clearly described in the quran now we take ahadiths to know who those imams are and what are there names and etc.

In order to understand the importance of tauheed,prophethood and maad the quran is enough though ahadiths may be essential but inorder to understand the various concepts the ahadiths are neccesary (in some cases essential only) for example:

Alllah is one.Right?

Most of our sunni brothers believe that you will see Allah on the day of judgement.

This is what imam ali (as) has to say of it.may be my qutation will be wrong but i will try my best to do error free work:

"Dont say that Allah can be seen because the thing which can be seen has a body the body is the piece of ones person and the person and a piece are two things and if you believe in god having another piece then indeed you are believing that Allah has another thing equal to it and by believing another thing equal to him you are commiting shirk"

Can an ordinary man make such an amazing and stunnig interpretation from the holy quran?

I mean your respected alims failed (No offense meant to the dear alims may Allah bless them).

As for nabuwat the quran mentiones that hazrat muhammed pbuh was the last messanger (hatamal mursaleen) it does not mentiones that he is Hatamul nabuwatah(correct me if i am wrong) and the quran say he word "mutawafiqah" for holy jesus (as) on the basis of these two facts the qadiyanees say that the nabuwath has not ended and that jeseus had died (They take the meaning of mutawafiqah to be death nausubillah).But now where will we go?we will come to the same narations and we will finds that our beloved prophet muhammed pbuh was not only the last prophet but also the last messanger. And the word mutawafiqah means that the duty of jesus had ended not that nausubillah he had died.

AS for maad the day of judgement there are thousands of narrations describing the aspect of the day of maad and its signs now if you would not find those exact verses will you reject those signs?

Salam to my sunni shia brothers and may al live in peace and unite against our common enemy the kafirs of west. (salam)

[Julius_Cesar]

Maysamopm:

As to your first post, i will respond to that either tomorrow or the day after. I'm waiting for somebody's approval.

In your next post you said:

  oh yes and a short note to add to your second question is that the current Imam Mahdi  is not just an Imam to the Shia but an Imam for All Mankind.

the way he leads has already been firmly been established by the previous Imams but i dont wish to address this topic in this thread coz its a whole other discussion maybe in a new thread one time inshAllah, as if u see from my previous posts im not really a hardcore debator i just want to learn inshAllah and whenever i have the chance inshAllah i try to share what i have learnt with others for the Sake Of Allah ofcourse and forever inshAllah

Sure i do not mind that, open up another thread and we'll deal with my second question there. And if possible also draw an outline of 'existence of mehdi in occultation' and please do not use SIHAH SITTA to prove the 'existence of mehdi in occultation' for the reason being that we sunnis have completely different view of Hadhrat Mehdi from shia. If you do not already know and are willing to learn the sunni point of view about mehdi let me know. As for debate, I'm a student too just like you and my purpose here is also to learn and not winning debates.

[Julius_Cesar]

Kumayl,

I invite you to read brother fahad's post once again, and if you still can not comprehend it, let me try to make you understand what our point of discussion is for this particular thread.

We are discussing the FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF of SHIA i.e. THE CONCEPT OF IMMAMAH from Quran. Because according to shia without believing on it one becomes infidel (KAFIR).

Now let me repharase and summarize your argument:

What you are asking or trying to inform us is that for masael-e-namaz we refer back to hadeeth while for the immamah we're asking explicit verses of quran why is that?

THE CONCEPT OF WORSHIPPING Allah (Salat/Prayers) is dealt with GREATER details in Quran. Both the shia and sunni agree upon the IMPORTANCE, and the EXISTENCE of prayers. However, they differnciate in actions of performing the prayers because the Quran is silent about the action of performing prayers. Therefore, both sunnis and shia rely on their sources of hadeeth. But, as we have mentioned earlier that THE CONCEPT itself is derived from Quran there's no reason to debate on it, because it is 'common' between both parties.

Similarly, in this thread we are asking about the CONCEPT OF IMMAMAH from Quran and not the reasons why ISMAILI shia believe that the prince agha khan is Al-mehdi, or why is it that the Zaidi shia only believe in imamat of ali ra.

As for ahadeeth you pasted, first of all we're dealing with QURAN only at this point. Secondly, the source of hadeeth is not present and finally if its shia source of hadeeth it is not hujjat for me.

I hope it is clear for you now.

[FriendlyGuy]

Just the Quran, (a little bit of Bible, however, this argument only uses the Bible to extend points, it does not rest on the bible in any way, shape, or form)

The doctrine of Imamat is in the Quran, and it IS expressed clearly. In fact, this doctrine of hereditary Imamat is mentioned also in the Bible.

It should be remembered that Abraham made two separate prayers regarding two separate institutions. The first was for the Imamat-Spiritual leadership to continue in his progeny. The second was the promise of Messenger-Prophet to rise among his descendants. Prophet Muhammad was the fulfillment of the latter promise, not the Imamat.

Promise of the Prophet:

2:129 – “Our Lord! And raise up in their midst a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them THY REVELATIONS, and shall instruct them in the SCRIPTURE AND IN WISDOM and shall PURIFY THEM. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, Wise.”

Promise of Imamat:

Quran 2:124 – “And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee IMAM to the NATIONS." He pleaded: "And also (IMAMS) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Abraham was already a Prophet and Messenger of Allah, but it was after he fulfilled Allah’s trials that he was given the Imamat. And this Imamat continues in the progeny of Abraham as Allah promised. It is a UNIVERSAL Imamat as Abraham was made “Imam to the Nations.

Hereditary Imamat in the Bible:

Genesis 17:7 "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and YOUR DESCENDANTS AFTER YOU FOR THE GENERATIONS TO COME, TO BE YOUR GOD AND THE GOD OF YOUR DESCENDANTS AFTER YOU."

God promises to keep an EVERLASTING covenant with Abraham and his DESCENDANTS for the generations to come...

Hereditary Imamat in the Quran:

3:33 – “Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Ìmrán (Abu Talib) ABOVE ALL PEOPLE,”

3:34 – “A LINE OF DESCENDANTS, ONE SUCCEEDING THE OTHER, and Allah heareth and knoweth all things.”

We see that Imamat was present with Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran. Abu Talib was also known as Imran. Therefore, the Imamat is with Abu Talib's family, specifically, Ali and his progeny.

Imamat as Guidance with the Children of Israel:

GUIDE #1 - Scripture:

32:23 – “We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses: be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee): and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.”

GUIDE #2 - Holy Imams:

32:24 – “And We appointed, from among them, LEADERS – IMAMS, GIVING GUIDANCE under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.”

Imamat/High Priesthood promised to Aaron and his descendants:

Exodus 28:41 “And thou shalt put them upon AARON THY BROTHER, AND HIS SONS WITH HIM; and shalt ANOINT them, and CONSECRATE them, and SANCTIFY them, that they may minister unto me in the PRIEST'S office – IMAMAT.”

Exodus 40:

12 And thou shalt BRING AARON AND HIS SONS unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water.

13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the HOLY garments, and ANOINT HIM, and SANCTIFY HIM; that he may minister unto me in the PRIEST'S OFFICE - IMAMAT.

14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:

15 And thou SHALT ANOINT THEM, as thou DIDST ANOINT THEIR FATHER, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: FOR THEIR ANOINTING SHALL SURELY BE AN EVERLASTING PRIESTHOOD – IMAMAT - THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS.

"Your position to me is like the position of Aaron to Moses, except

that there shall be no Prophet after me"

Sunni References:

(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56 and 5.700

(2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, section of virtues of Ali, v4, pp 1870-71

(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12

(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174

(5) al-Khas'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16

(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

Now, the position of Aaron to Moses is given by the verses of the Bible as shown above and the verses of the Quran. Therefore, whatever honours were bestowed upon Aaron are also present with Ali. Aaron and his descendants were High Priests/Imams with for the Children of Israel, and likewise, Ali and his descendants are the Imams for the Muslims.

Imam present at all times:

17:71 – “ONE DAY WE SHALL CALL TOGETHER ALL HUMAN BEINGS WITH THEIR IMAM: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.”

17:72 - “AND THOSE WHO ARE BLIND IN THIS WORLD, WILL BE BLIND IN THE HEREAFTER, AND EVEN FURTHER ASTRAY FROM THE PATH.”

4:59 – “O ye who believe! OBEY Allah, and OBEY THE APOSTLE, and THOSE CHARGED WITH AUTHORITY AMONG YOU (ULIL AMR). If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.”

Therefore, Obedience to Allah = Obedience to the Messenger = Obedience to Ulil Amr Imams. The rank of Allah, Messenger, and Imams are equated with each other.

36:12 – “And We have VESTED EVERYTHING in the MANIFEST IMAM - imamin mubeenin”

- the Manifest Imam has knowledge of all things. Therefore, only he can infallibly guide the faithful.

7:181 – “Of those We have created are PEOPLE WHO DIRECT (OTHERS) WITH TRUTH. AND DISPENSE JUSTICE THEREWITH.”

7:182 – “Those who reject OUR REVELATIONS, We shall gradually visit with punishment, in ways they perceive not;”

- it is clear that there are a people (Imams) on this earth guide others with truth. The next verse says, such people are themselves Revelations of Allah.

7:157 – “Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. THEN those who BELIEVE in him, and HONOUR him, and HELP him, and FOLLOW THE LIGHT which is sent down WITH HIM: they are the successful.”

- Those who “follow” the messenger are different than those who “believe” in the messenger and “follow” in the Light sent down with him. We are told to believe in the messenger and follow the “Light” in order to be spiritually successful.

Light AND Scriptures - they are not the same thing.

5:15 – “O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you LIGHT from Allah and plain SCRIPTURE,”

- Quran makes a specific distinction between Light and Scripture. Light refers to the Imam, who is the sole interpreter of the Scripture. Without the Imam, the Scripture has no Light, because it cannot be fully understood.

2:185 – “Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the QURÁN, as a guide to mankind, also MANIFEST PROOFS for guidance and the FURQAN.

In Islam, three things were revealed:

1. Quran for guidance - refers to the revealed Scripture

2. Manifest Proofs also for guidance - refers to Ahl-ul Bayt, they are Proofs of God

3. Furqan - a Criterion between right and wrong - refers to the Imam of the Time, he guides us between right and wrong

17:77 - (Such was Our) method in the case of those whom We sent before thee (to mankind), and thou wilt not find for Our method aught of power to change.

God's way does not change. There were Imams on earth before, and there will continue to be. God will never leave this earth without the prescence of an Imam.

[IWN]

We are discussing the FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF of SHIA i.e. THE CONCEPT OF IMMAMAH from Quran. Because according to shia without believing on it one becomes infidel (KAFIR).

The Concept of Imamah has been mentioned by the Quran, if you care to read the post above by friendly guy.

[kumayl hassan jaffry]

(bismillah)

(salam)

oh god!!!!!!!!! my dear brothers what i am telling you is that the imamat is described clearly in the quran now various sects rely on hadiths to judge who are the imams i dont see how you do not get it????

What is your question really?You want to know the imams right?Otherwise the imamat and its importance is clear in quran.YOu wouldn,t be questioning that?Would you?If you are not then i think that my point is clear and yes there are sunni narrations about our imams present visit the post "Answering shia encyclopedia"

So what if we are dicussong a fundamental belief and namaz is a little different then it?What i am trying to say is that there are many things which are made more clear by hadiths can you deny that?I am not trying to compare mnamz with imamat.And by the way please tell me on what basis can we not compare namaz with imamat?And if you are saying that i should compare the imamat with another similiar thing so i have done it in my previous post (tauheed,Nabuwat and muaad) why dont you look at my post instead?

Peace and love to all sunni shia brothers and sisters.

[kumayl hassan jaffry]

(bismillah)

(salam)

And what about my reply to the second question?(in my first reply)Please give your kind thoughts on that too dear sunni brothers. (salam)

[Syed Fahad]

Answering Friendly Guy

you said:

The doctrine of Imamat is in the Quran, and it IS expressed clearly. In fact, this doctrine of hereditary Imamat is mentioned also in the Bible.

Answer:

Dear Brother, if the Doctrine of Imamate was clearly established in the Qur'an the definitely it wouldnt had been a source of that much debate.

Their are 5 Articles of Faith in Shiasm:

1. Belief in Tawhid(Unity of Allah)

2. Belief in Adil(Justice of Allah)

3. Belief in Prophethood(Naboowat)

4. Belief in Imamate

5. Belief in Ma'ad(Day of Judgment)

Excluding Adil(Justice of Allah) the above Shias Articles of Faith no 1,3 and 5 are clearly established in the Qur'an and are shared with sunnis, now if you think that the Doctrine of Imamate is clearly established in the Qur'an, than how come it is a source of that much debate?

you said:

Quran 2:124 – “And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee IMAM to the NATIONS." He pleaded: "And also (IMAMS) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Abraham was already a Prophet and Messenger of Allah, but it was after he fulfilled Allah’s trials that he was given the Imamat. And this Imamat continues in the progeny of Abraham as Allah promised. It is a UNIVERSAL Imamat as Abraham was made “Imam to the Nations.

Answer:

So according to you the post of Imamate is more Superior than the post of Prophethood and Messengership ,since according to your understanding anything granted later and after a long struggle and test is always more better in quality then the previous, i want to know that what special qualities did Prophet Abraham(pbuh) achieve after becoming an Imam which he didnot had when he was a Prophet and a Messenger?

My Shia brothers often take the Qur'anic verses out of context to support their point of views regarding Imamate, but inorder to understand the true nature and meaning of the verses of the Qur'an ,one must read them in their proper context.

You quoted the verse from Surah Al Baqara ,verse no .124, to prove your position on the Doctrine of Imamate ,but let us move back and read some preceeding verses from this Surah inorder to understand to whom this actual verse 124 is referring to.

lets take a look at verse no. 122 from Surah Al Baqara which states:

" O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations".

Now from this preceeding verse, it is explicit and manifest that this whole Surah is regarding the Children of Isreal and all the servants which were appointed by Allah from their progeny for communicating His divine messege to Mankind were Prophets and Messengers.

Allah granted Imamate to Prophet Abraham(pbuh) to honor him since he was the one who was appointed by Allah to purify the Kabah(Holy House of Allah) and was the first person who invited the people to perform pilgrimage in Kabah. He was known as the father of the Prophets since majority of the Prophets came from his progeny through his youngest son Prophet Isaac(pbuh) excluding Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) who came from the linage of his eldest son Ismail(pbuh).

This verse no 124 from Surah Al-Baqara is not even remotely related to the Doctrine of Imamate .

Now if you think that Imams are only appointed by Allah and it is a divine post like Prophethood than what is your opinion about the Champions and Leaders of Kufars who were addressed in the Qur'an by Allah.

The champions of kufr

In another 2 cases it refers to the champions of kufr:

Fight the leaders of kufr. (at-Tawbah : 12)

And We made them leaders who call towards the Fire. (al-Qasas : 41)

If you think that disobeying your Imams is equal to disobeying the Prophets of Allah than how come their are so many verses in the Qur'an , which only orders the believers to obey Allah and His Prophets very clearly?

Edited May 27, 2004 by Syed Fahad

[IWN]

wrong my friend! whole Surahs are not about a particular subject... the Surahs were named later by the Caliphs. There are two facts u should know:

The Surahs are not arranged in any chronological order

The Ayahs within certain Surahs may not be in chronological order! Some Ayahs have been placed ACROSS Surahs, by humans!