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"Who created God?"

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I'll try my best to answer with my limited knowledge. Essence is not fundamentally real because neither existence nor non-existence are required for it. For example, the essence of man is rational animal. There is nothing inherent in the concept of rational animal that dictates whether it should exist or not therefore it is indifferent to existence and non-existence and it is for this reason everything with an essence requires a cause in order to come into existence. Therefore, it is existence which represents fundamental reality and not essence. Hope this helped.

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Salam alaikum,

its a very interesting topic uve chose, its been discussed a lot and i have to recommend only one book - Our philosophy by the great sayyid Muahmmah baqir al sadr. Basically il summarise wot little i could actually understand:

- uve grasped the concept of cause and effect very well, every effect has a cause, every cause produces an effect. We use this argument to prove the atheists wrong. they try 2 use this to prove us wrong by sayin wat is the cause of Allah.

- ok i only managed 2 grasp 2 theories tho there r many more. One is not liked and few, if any, muslim scholars except it, the second is widely accepted and last time i checked noone cud provide any real argument against it.

1) Theory of creativity: I ask wot is the cause of somthin - wot is it that is being questioned? for example i say wot caused this world? i am askin what happened (cause) in order to make this world come about ( exist) since i kno it didnt exist. It came from a point of non existance to existance and hence it must have a cause. The question is valid and has an answer. An event occured (comin from non-existnec to existence) and hence there must b a cause. Now we come to Allah (swt). What caused Allah? well Allah has existed continuesly, from eternity to eternity to the depths of infinty. There is no effect. Allah is the UNCAUSED CAUSE of all creation. No effect means no cause. End of story. Of course the question can still b asked, but that is not proof it is valid. i can say wot does a square-circle look like? but how can it b square and circle ?? u c the question is nonsence but looks valid. the same applies to askin wot caused Allah (swt).

This is one theory. Muslim scholars are not very keen on this one. their argument against it is a lil bit complex so il jus keep it as such.

The second, more accepted arguemnt, i shall post another time inshalllah. im jus bit short on time. I hope this has helped a litlle bit.

will post soon.

wasalam.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I'll try my best to answer with my limited knowledge. Essence is not fundamentally real because neither existence nor non-existence are required for it. For example, the essence of man is rational animal. There is nothing inherent in the concept of rational animal that dictates whether it should exist or not therefore it is indifferent to existence and non-existence and it is for this reason everything with an essence requires a cause in order to come into existence. Therefore, it is existence which represents fundamental reality and not essence. Hope this helped.

(salam)

Thanks for the ellaboration... But that kind of just comes off as a re-iteration of the contingency argument in different terms- that there are contingent beings (beings that could have failed to exist) and a necessary being (a being that could not have failed to exist). What would be the distinction b/w the two arguments?

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I know this question troubles many people especially atheists, the question is asked mostly by the atheist who are not ready to accept any of the worlds religion unless and until their questions are answered logically ,rationally and satisfactorily.

The question actually goes like this : If God is the Creator of everything ,then who created God?

Answer:

I do not agree with the premise that everything must have a Creator . If you keep my response to your previous question in perspective , you shall see that it is not that we are fond of finding a Creator and a Designer for everything .On the contrary , we are interested in finding the artist, only when we see a piece of work or art ; We are interested in searching for the writer ,only when we read a letter ; and we are interested in looking for the architect and the engineer, only when a building stares down at us. Obviously ,our search for the writer ,at being delivered an anonymous letters does not necessitate that the writer , in turn ,should also be written by someone.Similarly, our search for the artist and the engineer or the architect ,at seeing a piece of art or building ,does not,by itself, necessitate that the chain of searching for architects,would go on indefinitely.

It is not that everything must have a Creator; on the contrary, every created thing must have a Creator.No reasonable person would start looking for the writer ,at observing a building; or the architect at observing a piece of art . What we look for at observing something depends on the properties, the features and the attributes of the being observed.

As I had clarified in my previous response ,it is primarily the nature of what surrounds us ,and what lies within us, which initiates our search for a Wise Artist, a Magnificent Designer and a Providing Creator.

Had the world that Surrounds us and that which is within us been devoid of all design ,wisdom or providence,then, obviously ,we wouldnot have initiated this search, in the first place. The fact that the world which surrounds us and that which is within us entail a beautiful design,gracious providence and deep wisdom, coupled with the fact that neither ourselves nor the material world is capable of inculcating the design, the wisdom or the providence within itself, is what drives us to search for a Creator,which exists independently. On the basis of the same reasoning ,the question as to who created the Creator,deserves entertainment only if at observing the Creator, we find that He is also one of the created thing.

Till such time , the question is absolutely absurd and misplaced.

Regards,

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Thank you for your response Syed, but I'm not sure if you read the entire thread. "Who created God?" wasn't actually my question, at least not in the manner you responded. Please see my clarifying post on page 1.

Also,

  If you keep my response to your previous question in perspective 
As I had clarified in my previous response 

I don't see any previous response from you- perhaps under another name? Please kindly clarify or repost your initial response.

Thanks.

Edited by ~*~GuestSister~*~

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On 2004-4-11 at 2:03 PM, GuestSister said:

Now that I've gotten your attention, yes I know God is by definition Uncaused, The First, the Last, etc... However, I would like to know if there are any suggested explanations for how God is Uncaused and Infinite, or if a 5 year old were to word it- "Who created God?". I'm only aware of one explanation.

We know a common argument for the existence of God is one that argues for a cause or explanation for the existence of the universe (cosmological arg.). Put rather simply, it looks something like this:

(1) Everything that exists has a cause of its existence.

(2) The universe exists.

Therefore:

(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.

(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence, then that cause is God.

Therefore:

(5) God exists.

The common rebuttal to this is #1 must also apply to God- why make an exception for Him when we can just make a similar exception for the universe, and thus eliminate the need for a Creator? Although there are various answers to that question, the answer to the bolded question is part of the answer. Any explanations any of you have come across by Muslim or other scholars would be great. Please cite a reference only if it's handy.

I SHOULD PREFACE THIS THREAD BY SAYING I AM LOOKING FOR SUGGESTED THEISTIC EXPLANATIONS HERE. ATHEISTS ARE MORE THAN WELCOME TO CONTRIBUTE, BUT I ASK THAT EVERYONE NOT DEVIATE FROM THE FOCUS OF THIS THREAD. IF AN EXPLANATION IS SUGGESTED, FEEL FREE TO CRITIQUE.

Claiming that Allah has a creator is primitive thinking. Our brains dont have the capacity of imagining Allah. 

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On Sunday, April 11, 2004 at 11:03 PM, GuestSister said:

Now that I've gotten your attention, yes I know God is by definition Uncaused, The First, the Last, etc... However, I would like to know if there are any suggested explanations for how God is Uncaused and Infinite, or if a 5 year old were to word it- "Who created God?". I'm only aware of one explanation.

We know a common argument for the existence of God is one that argues for a cause or explanation for the existence of the universe (cosmological arg.). Put rather simply, it looks something like this:

(1) Everything that exists has a cause of its existence.

(2) The universe exists.

Therefore:

(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.

(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence, then that cause is God.

Therefore:

(5) God exists.

The common rebuttal to this is #1 must also apply to God- why make an exception for Him when we can just make a similar exception for the universe, and thus eliminate the need for a Creator? Although there are various answers to that question, the answer to the bolded question is part of the answer. Any explanations any of you have come across by Muslim or other scholars would be great. Please cite a reference only if it's handy.

I SHOULD PREFACE THIS THREAD BY SAYING I AM LOOKING FOR SUGGESTED THEISTIC EXPLANATIONS HERE. ATHEISTS ARE MORE THAN WELCOME TO CONTRIBUTE, BUT I ASK THAT EVERYONE NOT DEVIATE FROM THE FOCUS OF THIS THREAD. IF AN EXPLANATION IS SUGGESTED, FEEL FREE TO CRITIQUE.

Assalam.The question itself is in a way evidence of the existance of God.Human mind structure is of that kind or has been created that cannot go beyond cause and effect and time and space.What can not come to human mind we call it nothingness .human knoledge is confined our five senses .We receive sensations and perceptions through our five senses and mind.We can not assigne a cause for God.We can think of things that only come into our mind and can not that can not come come to mind.

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Our mind is simple and limited,it is not capable of thinking of more developed/advanced entity such as God,

A scientist that happens to know some sciences is not capable of defining God and validating/refuting his existence.

Cyclic universe is a wrong theory,one of the wrongest theories created by teen atheists,even Scientists who study Physics and Astronomy and Cosmology don't believe in that,much more developed by teen atheists who wanted to "show" they are smart and talk with things they don't understand.

 

I am also not a scientist,but I know a bit of science,unlike much atheists....

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The problem with creation is - It evaluates everything that come to its mind in its own frame, that is the frame of creation!

Above all the creation, there is a Creator. And a finite creation can never define an Infinite Creator!

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15 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

The problem with creation is - It evaluates everything that come to its mind in its own frame, that is the frame of creation!

Above all the creation, there is a Creator. And a finite creation can never define an Infinite Creator!

I loved this one,Thanks brother :) 

Edited by M.IB

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On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2004 at 2:03 PM, GuestSister said:

Now that I've gotten your attention, yes I know God is by definition Uncaused, The First, the Last, etc... However, I would like to know if there are any suggested explanations for how God is Uncaused and Infinite, or if a 5 year old were to word it- "Who created God?". I'm only aware of one explanation.

We know a common argument for the existence of God is one that argues for a cause or explanation for the existence of the universe (cosmological arg.). Put rather simply, it looks something like this:

(1) Everything that exists has a cause of its existence.

(2) The universe exists.

Therefore:

(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.

(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence, then that cause is God.

Therefore:

(5) God exists.

The common rebuttal to this is #1 must also apply to God- why make an exception for Him when we can just make a similar exception for the universe, and thus eliminate the need for a Creator? Although there are various answers to that question, the answer to the bolded question is part of the answer. Any explanations any of you have come across by Muslim or other scholars would be great. Please cite a reference only if it's handy.

I SHOULD PREFACE THIS THREAD BY SAYING I AM LOOKING FOR SUGGESTED THEISTIC EXPLANATIONS HERE. ATHEISTS ARE MORE THAN WELCOME TO CONTRIBUTE, BUT I ASK THAT EVERYONE NOT DEVIATE FROM THE FOCUS OF THIS THREAD. IF AN EXPLANATION IS SUGGESTED, FEEL FREE TO CRITIQUE.

My perspective is that we can't apply human concepts/realities to beings/ideas beyond our comprehension.  Logic has always been an observed quality and is limited to the human capacity to see/interact and understand.  

The idea of being "created", having a "beginning" is a limitation or confinement manifested through how human beings see things.  

One example is that we always see processes as having beginnings and end, like a life cycle of a newborn, or a star.  But we don't apply the concept that the atoms/energies used in those processes, have just been shifting from one place to another, in short, that matter/energy has not been created nor destroyed.

In other words did the Universe just always happened to be a finite amount of energy/space/matter, and all fluctuations, events that transpire inside of it just move and transfer afterward?  In this case, are all forms of matter/energy just external limbs/forces connected to some superior entity that does not have a need for a central nervous system beyond our comprehension?  (holy crud this post was made 14 years ago)

 

 

EDIT: @Waseem162 put this much more elegantly and concisely than I did.

Edited by wmehar2

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On 4/11/2004 at 2:03 PM, GuestSister said:

Now that I've gotten your attention, yes I know God is by definition Uncaused, The First, the Last, etc... However, I would like to know if there are any suggested explanations for how God is Uncaused and Infinite, or if a 5 year old were to word it- "Who created God?". I'm only aware of one explanation.

We know a common argument for the existence of God is one that argues for a cause or explanation for the existence of the universe (cosmological arg.). Put rather simply, it looks something like this:

(1) Everything that exists has a cause of its existence.

(2) The universe exists.

Therefore:

(3) The universe has a cause of its existence.

(4) If the universe has a cause of its existence, then that cause is God.

Therefore:

(5) God exists.

The common rebuttal to this is #1 must also apply to God- why make an exception for Him when we can just make a similar exception for the universe, and thus eliminate the need for a Creator? Although there are various answers to that question, the answer to the bolded question is part of the answer. Any explanations any of you have come across by Muslim or other scholars would be great. Please cite a reference only if it's handy.

I SHOULD PREFACE THIS THREAD BY SAYING I AM LOOKING FOR SUGGESTED THEISTIC EXPLANATIONS HERE. ATHEISTS ARE MORE THAN WELCOME TO CONTRIBUTE, BUT I ASK THAT EVERYONE NOT DEVIATE FROM THE FOCUS OF THIS THREAD. IF AN EXPLANATION IS SUGGESTED, FEEL FREE TO CRITIQUE.

The simplest answer is that the first premise is incorrect.  It should say, anything that is contingent has a cause.  What makes a thing contingent? Answer: A contingent thing is something that can be distinguished from other things (or anything that has a distinguishing mark), anything, the essence of which, that you can mentally set apart from other things.  So that is practically anything you find in the universe, anything you can even conceptualize!  So all such things, are contingent.  And because they are contingent are in need of a cause.  

God is Non-Dual Reality.  Which simply means that He is distinguished from other things only in not being able to be distinguished from everything else.  He is not only pure being but He is beyond being. He is not only infinitely knowing but He is also beyond knowing.  Etc etc...

It is very important to realize that this understanding of God cannot be grasped conceptually because the moment you put God in concepts you end up with such paradoxes (which is the maximum our minds can come to when it comes to knowing God).  This is why God can only be "intimately" understood through the human heart, not the mind.  It is hearts which intellect (the Quran says), not our minds!  It is hearts which are blind, not the mind.  

So just by having a proper and non-conceptual witnessing of this Non-Dual Reality (aka God), will we find that we don't need any argument for His existence.  Because this understanding is itself Mysteriously One with God.  This is what our religion demands from us.  It demands knowing God in this way (the way of the heart).  Knowing God conceptually is hardly going to be of much help.  When we pray we are getting to know God (or we are supposed to be getting to know God). This is because when we pray we are supposed to go beyond our mind (beyond our thinking), in fact we are supposed to pacify our thoughts and thinking (or at least see what lies beyond it).  When we pray we are supposed to be accessing our heart's center, we are supposed to be knowing God intimately.     

 

 

 

     

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 4/11/2004 at 2:03 PM, GuestSister said:

 

The common rebuttal to this is #1 must also apply to God- why make an exception for Him when we can just make a similar exception for the universe, and thus eliminate the need for a Creator? Although there are various answers to that question, the answer to the bolded question is part of the answer. Any explanations any of you have come across by Muslim or other scholars would be great. Please cite a reference only if it's handy.

The reason why we have to make an exception for God is simply because God is not an entity or a being or a thing (or for that matter an individual).  There is difference when we say that God is a being and when it is said that God is Being.  As soon as you understand this difference then your question will be answered.  In fact you will find it useless to even resort to an argument or proof for God's existence.  The reason for this is because a being may or may not exist, but Being per se cannot but exist.

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30 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

The reason for this is because a being may or may not exist, but Being per se cannot but exist.

:) may I ask what difference in there between "a being" & "Being" in your point of view? 

Other than the "existence" or continued survival.

Edited by Salsabeel

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8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:) may I ask what difference in there between "a being" & "Being" in your point of view? 

Other than the "existence" or continued survival.

A being is a mode or way of Being.  It is like asking, what is the difference between the wave and the infinite expanse of an ocean.  The wave is and is not the ocean.  On the one hand there is nothing about the wave that is not the ocean, and on the other hand the wave has a limit but the ocean does not.  A wave is a modulation of the ocean and it exists (i.e. it has water) in the ocean, by the ocean and through the Ocean.  A wave is therefore dependent on the ocean but the ocean is not dependency on the wave.  If the wave disappears the ocean doesn’t disappear. If a wave appears the ocean doesn’t start existing.  The ocean is not made any less by the disappearance of a wave nor is the ocean made any greater by the appearance of a wave.  If the wave moves the ocean does not move.  But even though this may be true it is also true that there is nothing about the substance of the wave that you can point to that is not the ocean water.  There is nothing that exists about the wave except for the watery substance which is none other than the ocean.  A wave is therefore the ocean and not the ocean.  A wave is the ocean with respect to its water (its wujud), but it is also not the ocean with respect to it being a finite or limited thing (a limited wujud or what is called a mawjud or seemingly self-existent or seemingly independent entity).  

Edited by eThErEaL

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Hi,

Interesting discussion, but we have to admit that our human intelligence has not unraveled this mystery of first creation. --- Someone said that, “God is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood." --- Others have listed His Divine attributes from the Scriptures, which are as follows,

 

God is:  Sovereign,  Transcendent,  Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing),  Omnipresent (ever present),  Self existent,  and Self sufficient.

 

Ravi Zacharias says that “God is the First Cause.”

 

If there was Something greater that created God,  then That would be the First Cause, would it not?

 

A satisfying answer is in Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He IS (exists), and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."  

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On 4/27/2004 at 4:01 PM, GuestSister said:

Okay I'm going to try another question- anyone that can please help.

I need more info on the fundamentality of existence and fundamentality of essence theories, as discussed in Mutahhari's article. A solid example (if at all possible) to demonstrate the theories, would really really help in clarifying things for me a bit, as Mutahhari's discussion of the distinction between the essence and existence of things was rather abstract and the vocabulary was kind of ambiguous. So maybe some other reading material would help- I have yet to find any (maybe Shaheed al-Sadr's chapter on causality in "Our Philosophy"?)

Also, when he equates pure existence with God, the question then arises, if the reality of God is pure existence, what is the reality of other things? He responds by saying the real being of things is what they partake of existence. But doesn't that kind of come off as pantheistic? :huh: I know I'm missing something here...

Salam Sister,

what is pantheism to you?

If “Pantheism” doesn’t contradict with Tawhid then we should have no qualms with calling ourselves pantheists.  Don’t get scared by the terms or words.  What matters is if it is the truth.  

But what does Pantheism say in any case?  And what does Tawhid say?

This is how I define the two:

Pantheism = the Sum of all THINGS taken all together is God.  You might as well just say that the world or universe is God.

Tawhid = There is nothing real but God.  God is ALL or EVERYTHING but without things.  There is only One Reality.  Only God IS.  There is Tawhid of acts, attributes and essence.  This means that None acts but God.  All attributes are not attributes of things or people but rather, all attributes are attributes of God alone!  And finally there aren’t many individual essences, there is just One Essence and that is God Himself.

 

 

 

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Why would God need to be created? That's because Human mind can't perceive something to be "not created", If God started then there is a creator of God. God however can't be limited to the point of view of Human.

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