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Abd El Hasan

SHIA LOGIC 101

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Ok people. I am sorry there has been no lessons, but I went to Qum to study more about shia logic. Or was it Najaf. I don't know all the same.

Anyway, remember the golden rule. Just except like are forefathers excepted it.

Ok children, we can not prove the concept of 12 Imams from the quran so we will use the bible.

"I have heard your prayer for Ismail. I have blessed him and will make him fruitful. I will multiply his descendants; he shall be father of twelve princes, and I will raise a great nation from him." (Genesis17:20)

You see the "twelve" children. That means twelve I M A M S. We are shia we can give far fetched meanings to what ever we want.

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Salamun Alaykom,

Sorry Br Ali, i couldnt help it.

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve commanders (Amir)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih al-Bukhari(english) Hadith:9.329 Kitabul Ahkam.

Sahih al-Bukhari(Arabic) Hadith:4.165 Kitabul Ahkam.. Hadith #6682 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The [islamic] religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim (Arabic version) Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition #6

Sahih Muslim, (English version) chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh),v3, p1010, Tradition #4478.

Hadith #3394 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim (Arabic version)Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia,v3, p1453, Tradition #7

Sahih Muslim, (English version)Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh), v3, p1010, Tradition #4479

Hadith #3395 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraysh."

Sahih Muslim (Arabic version) Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452, Tradition #5

Sahih Muslim, (English version) Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraysh and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraysh), v3, p1009, Tradition #4477

Hadith #3393 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."

Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic) Chapter of Fitan, 2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt) Hadith #2149 (numbering of al-'Alamiyyah)

Wassalam

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Can you find Abu Bakar, Umar and Uthman legitimacy from the Holy Book?

Did Allah swt say you could let 6 people vote for a caliph (in the case of Uthman) and a deceased Caliph willed for another one (who he fancies) for the Ummah like the case of Abu bakar?

I would be very interested to Understand Sunni Logics

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salam.

Sahih Bukhari V 4, B 56,Hadith # 661:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship."

And according to Sahih al-Bukhari(english) Hadith:9.329 ,Sahih Muslim (Arabic version)Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia,v3, p1453, Tradition #7 etc., The number of caliphs are TWELVE.

And everybody knows who was given the pledge of allegiance first, at Ghadir .

Umar and Abu Bakr said:"Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all believing men and women." Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281 . Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50 etc..

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Salams,

In actual fact, you can go back all the way to "Da3wat Dhul Ashira" when Rasool Allah was ordered to invite his nearest kin to Islam, Imam Ali was made the Imam and successor at the beginning of the mission. The hadith goes as follows:

Narrated Ibn Humayed, from Salamah, from Muhammad Ibn Is'haq, from Abd al-Ghaffar Ibn al-Qasim, from al-Minhal Ibn Amr, from abdallah Ibn al-Harith Ibn Nawfal Ibn al-Harith Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, from Abdallah Ibn Abbas, from Ali Ibn Abi Talib:

When the verse "And warn your close tribe (Quran 26:214)" was revealed to the prophet, he called me and said to me, "Ali, God has commanded me to warn my tribe of near kindred. I was troubled by this, since I knew that when I discuss the matter to them they would respond in a way which I would not like. I kept silent until Gabriel came to me and said "If you do not do what you are commanded, your Lord will punish you." So prepare a measure of wheat for us, add a leg of lamb to it, fill a large bowl of milk for us, and then invite sons of Abd al-Muttalib for me so that I may speak to them what I have been commanded to tell them."

I did what he had told me to do. At that time they numbered forty men more or less, including his uncles Abu Talib, Hamzah, al-Abbas, and Abu Lahab. When they had gathered together, he called me to bring the food which I had prepared. I brought it, and when I put it down, prophet took a piece of meat, broke it with his teeth, put it in the dish. Then he said, "Take in the name of God." They ate until they could eat no more, and yet the food was as it had been. I swear by God, in whose hand Ali's soul rests, that a single man could have eaten the amount of food which I prepared for them. Then he said "Give them something to drink." So I brought them the bowl and they drank from it until they became full, and I swear by God that one man could have drunk that amount. When prophet wanted to speak to them, Abu Lahab interrupted him and said "Your host has long since bewitched you." Then they dispersed without the prophet speaking to them.

On the following day he said to me "Ali, this man interrupted what I wanted to say so that people dispersed before I could speak to them. Prepare the same food for us as you did yesterday, and invite them here." I did this, and brought them food when he called me. He did as he had done the other day, and they ate until they could eat no more. Then he said, "Bring the bowl," and they drank until they could drink no more.

Then he spoke to them, saying, "Banu Abd al-Muttalib, I don't know of any young man among Arabs who has brought for his people something better than what I have brought to you. I bring the best of this world and the world after, since God has commanded me to summon you to him. Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?" They all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said "I will be your helper, O' prophet of God." He put his hand on the back of my neck and said "This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him." They rose up laughing and saying to Abu Talib, "He has commanded you to obey your son and to obey him!"

- History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91

- History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62

"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place among the people." - (Quran 7:142).

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700:

Narrated Sad:

Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...ri/059.sbt.html

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I was actually quite amazed when i came across this same hadith when I was reading a book called, Heros and Hero Worship, by Thomas Carlyle. This book was written in 1842 if my memory serves me correctly, in the chapter call Muhammad the Prophet, I think. When he gets to the part where Muhammad makes Imam Ali his successor, Carlyle says something like, "one can not help but to feel some admiration for the courage of this boy".

Salam Allah 3alayk, ya Amir al Mumineen.

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You bring up the hadith of twelve cailphs, yet the only two Imams to be cailphs are Ali(ra) and Hasan(ra).

Your forth and sixth Imams both declined the offer to be cailphs. Why????? Didn't they hear this hadith??????

Come Abdul Hasnain, let us hear the reply you gave me. Let us all have a laugh.

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You bring up the hadith of twelve cailphs, yet the only two Imams to be cailphs are Ali(ra) and Hasan(ra).

Your forth and sixth Imams both declined the offer to be cailphs. Why????? Didn't they hear this hadith??????

Come Abdul Hasnain, let us hear the reply you gave me. Let us all have a laugh.

Aha!

Br Abd El Hasan, now you are beginning to understand.

See...that wasn’t very hard..was it??! Do you now understand why we say Abu Bakar, Umar, Uthman stole the caliphate and Muawiyyah(the terrorist) put a monarchy where it should be Imamah

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Brother Abd el Hasan,

The 12 imams (as) were and still are today, khalifat Allah, or the caliphs of Allah for millions of believers worldwide....... those who declined being 'khalifat a-nas' or the caliphs of the people in no way lessens their value or importance.

Alla homma sulli ala Mohamed, wa ahli Mohamed!

Brother Abdul Hasnain: the sad and obvious fact is that the Sunni do not read their own hadith, let alone ours....

Peace,

Um Ali

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Your forth and sixth Imams both declined the offer to be cailphs. Why????? Didn't they hear this hadith??????

Salam o Alekum,

Because they followed the example of their grandfather the Prophet (SAWW).

The Khalafats offered to them had strings (conditions) attached. These offers were not sincere offers. Prophet (SAWW) while he lived in Mecca was offered to be made the Amir of Mecca by the Qureish. But it was on the condition that he stopped preaching Islam, but he declined to accept such an offer.

Khuda Hafiz

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Selam alaycom,

Speaking of strings attached, Imam Ali (as) did not accept the condition of following Abu Bakr and Omar, and Uthman did, resulting in him becoming the 3rd khalifa. This quite interesting. If Imam Ali (as) rejected the conditions, what does that mean, brother Abd el Hasan? If the first two of your beloved companions had been just rulers, wouldn't Imam Ali have accepted their conditions? And if they weren't........ well, isn't it obvious???

Peace,

Um Ali

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Brothers and sisters, I told him the same thing. He souldn't understand the blinkers that have been glued on by his forefathers didn't allow him to look properly. He thought I meant that the Imams didn't accept the Caliphate, because they couldn't handle power. He doesn't understand the fact that someone can be an Imam although he is not recognised as one by a lot of people. There is no legitimacy to the Caliphate chosen by man, do you not read.

And thy Lord creates what He wills and chooses; they have no right to choose; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate! (Quran28:68)

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Salam Alaikum

Caliphate was a kingdom founded by Umar and Abu Bakr. Originally at the time of Prophet (s.a.w.s) Khilafah was a divine authority and vicegerency of Prophet (s.a.w.s). But once Abu Bakr and Umar made themselves the caliphs, they [Edited Out]ized the khilafah.

Tthat is why we don'e use the word Khaleefah for our Imams, although in the true sense of the word, they are all khaleefaturRasool.

Imam Ali (a.s.) became a 'caliph', although he was already the Imam and Khaleefah. The only reason he sat on the throne of worldy power is because the people (for the first time) elected and insisted that at least one person in the line of caliphs should be Ma'soom. It must have been a nice change to see a sincere leader in position of authority of 'Baitul-Mal'.

Imam Ali (a.s.) said that his torn shoe had greater worth than the caliphate. He was alreadt the Imam of those who followed him.

Abel Hasan, i am sometimes (ok, all the time) astounded by your lack of logic. Maybe you should stick your head out of the ground and smell the fresh air and aroma of Ahlul Bait (a.s.).

Wasalam

Abbas

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