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In the Name of God بسم الله

What religion is stronger?

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shujaat, why shouldn't Christians be classified as monotheists?

I for one think that Jews are not more or less monotheistic, but equally monotheistic. The definition is simple believe in one God. Jews believe in one God and so do Christians. There is no 'more' of a one God and a 'lesser' one God.

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that answer is somewhat easier; christianity is stronger, having produced (or been part of, depending on whether you belive a religion makes a society or a society makes a religion) a more adaptable culture.

take a look at the GDP of christian nations, compare it to muslim ones.

ditto for books written,

scientific discoveries made,

etc. etc. etc.

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(salam)

a very subjective question it seems.

define stronger?

if stronger implies in greater number then obviously christanity is stronger. but this definition implies that insects are "stronger" than humans.

if by stronger, one means greater faith, or in other words greater submission to religious followings, then it seems that judaism is stronger. since, atleast in my experience, i've noted that a greater percentage of jews practice their religion more strictly than christians.

or does stronger mean which religion is more acceptable in light of modern science?

i'm not at all sure what is asked in this question, since i am not able to discern what the questioner means by "stronger"

ali.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I would say Judaism. Christianity is amongst the most fragile religions in the world in the sense that its entire basis rests upon the shoulders one [disputed] incident...the supposed crucifixion of Jesus (as). No other religion is like that. Judaism, Buddism, and even Hinduism are founded upon a particular worldview or set of ideas. To believe in Christianity is to believe in a single incident and if doubt is cast upon this one incident then Christianity as a whole impodes.

As for those Christians who claim to be monotheists, pleaseb stop deluding yourselves...you believe in the existence of three eternally existing, distinct divine persons. That my friends is sheer polytheism, no matter how you try to spin it.

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I would say Judaism. Christianity is amongst the most fragile religions in the world in the sense that its entire basis rests upon the shoulders one [disputed] incident...the supposed crucifixion of Jesus . No other religion is like that. Judaism, Buddism, and even Hinduism are founded upon a particular worldview or set of ideas. To believe in Christianity is to believe in a single incident and if doubt is cast upon this one incident then Christianity as a whole impodes.

The disputed incident is supported by many historians at the times, and the people of then beleive what Christians do now.

As for those Christians who claim to be monotheists, pleaseb stop deluding yourselves...you believe in the existence of three eternally existing, distinct divine persons. That my friends is sheer polytheism, no matter how you try to spin it.

Its kind of funny, your yourself show a lack of understanding. Never in your post do you mention three existing Gods, but persons and thats what the doctrine maintains. Sheer polytheism is three Gods, not three persons who are God.

Keep believing that we are polytheists, thats your mistake not mine, and will only get you laughed at in ANY Christian circle.

Edited by trinity3n1
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Its kind of funny, your yourself show a lack of understanding. Never in your post do you mention three existing Gods, but persons and thats what the doctrine maintains. Sheer polytheism is three Gods, not three persons who are God.

What is your defnation of Person and defination of God? You're just interchanging the two to suit your needs.

According the the Athanasian creed which was the first to formalize and define Trinity said:

"The Father is God, the son is God & the Holy Spirit is God. They are not 3 Gods but 1 God"

"The Father is a person, the son is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person. They are not 3 persons but one person"

What is this supposed to mean? According to you Jesus (as) is God, but at the same time he is not God, he is a Person in God.

Keep believing that we are polytheists, thats your mistake not mine, and will only get you laughed at in ANY Christian circle.

Actually your ideology does have the ingredients of polytheism, it is just that you label yourself as monotheists.

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What is your defnation of Person and defination of God? You're just interchanging the two to suit your needs.

According the the Athanasian creed which was the first to formalize and define Trinity said:

"The Father is God, the son is God & the Holy Spirit is God. They are not 3 Gods but 1 God"

"The Father is a person, the son is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person. They are not 3 persons but one person"

What is this supposed to mean? According to you Jesus  is God, but at the same time he is not God, he is a Person in God.

I don't use the two to suit my neeeds, person are the three whos of the Godhead. Father Son Holy Spirit.

Person is the distinction w/in the Godhead know as Father Son Holy Spirit.

I don't believe in the athanasian creed, if its says so. Jesus is God because he is a person of the Godhead, much like past is considered 'time' by nature is 'time' not past.

I have always distinguished the three, and attempted to be appropriate w/my usage of the terms. WHO Father Son Holy Spirit WHAT God.

Actually your ideology does have the ingredients of polytheism, it is just that you label yourself as monotheists.

You are very very incorrect, and I see NOT ONE ingredient of polytheism. Labeling Christians as such shows a lack of understanding on YOUR PART.

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I vote Judaism... purely for the fact that it actually preaches about 1 God.. there is no dispute, no argument, no doubt no nothing... not even the slightest indication of God having multiple personalities or there being multiple gods... its absolutely clear that they are monotheists.... contrary to this the christian faith does have atleast reasonable doubt... there is a bit of controversy, there is a possibility of multiple gods, there is a chance that these gods might be distinct persons... i'll give a "pro" example... all you network guys might understand.... the christian god is something similar to a network... this network is a physically single network... but internally its divided into segments.. i.e. logically seperate as in v-lans or whatever... so to an outsider ... a non-network guy ... a non pc-understanding guy it will look like a single network... but to a sys admin... a guy who knows the in's n out's of networking ... well to him its 2 or more different networks ... although its on the same cable but it still is different coz dept A cant see Dept B ppl.... or can but through some medium/gateway....

I guess this is the best Pro-Christian example i can come up with... keeping in view that there are ppl of different intelligence levels... one being the outsider with limited understanding and one being the insider who is basically the "guru" !!!

Peace ya'll

Ali

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(bismillah)

Christians although they believe in the triune belief, are adamant that God is one, so therefore they are monotheists, if they are polytheists then so are sufis that believe God is everything.

Christians and Judaism are both weak religions, they both have anthropormorphic beliefs. But Christianity is less weak.

Wassalaam

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salaam

i would say that in THIS day, the Jews and the Muslims have more in common in terms of the whole monotheistic thing because both religions reject the notion of Jesus=God/Son of God... i've actually had long conversations with my uncle about this, and he spoke about it at our wedding in an attempt to encourage unity and acceptance (of my conversion) within my own family. i understand that the christians say that the trinity is not polytheistic, but you can at least understand why there would be some confusion right?

anyway, in terms of who is "stronger" i would say that as it is, the jewish community has more control over their own economics... and since money rules the world, i think they have a foot up on the christians in that respect.

some Quran i thought was relevant to the subject:

[shakir 2:113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

historically speaking, about the relationship between muslims and the jews and christians...

[shakir 5:82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

but none of it REALLY matters anyway because...

[shakir 2:62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

ONE LOVE,

khalilah

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that answer is somewhat easier; christianity is stronger, having produced (or been part of, depending on whether you belive a religion makes a society or a society makes a religion) a more adaptable culture.

take a look at the GDP of christian nations, compare it to muslim ones.

ditto for books written,

scientific discoveries made,

etc. etc. etc.

those "christian" nations are secular.. had christianity remained at the forefront, scientists would still be accused of heresy and excommunicated from the church for believing in the heliocentric theory for instance....

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BTW, whats the point of all of this? Does it really matter which religion is stronger? Each has different strengths. Each has a different beauty. And each worship one God (no, Christians are not polytheists).

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Ali,

You yourself should know after being pounded by Orthodox1234 a while back in a Trinitarian debate. If you are so adamant about proving that I am a polytheist then by any means prove however as far as I and any Christian are concerned such statement will just get a laugh at you, and maybe a little sympathy.

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Trinity = polytheism.

Anyways, on a theological level, Christians are better, because they recognised the Ahlul Bayt (as) (at Mubahila) and the Prophet pbuh never fought a war against them, whereas the Jews went out and out supporting the Idolaters of Makkah, and fought the Prophet pbuh.

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I think that you guys should also keep in mind what the variety of beliefs are in Judaism. Many Jews (Liberal, Reconstructionist, even a lot of Conservatives) don't believe that there is a huge supreme God up in heaven that is controlling everything. There is a variety of beliefs in Judaism regarding God (but the one belief that they all share is that he is one). So when someone asks which is more "monotheistic," its hard to answer because it depends on the individual people.

Edited by Netzari
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As for those Christians who claim to be monotheists, pleaseb stop deluding yourselves...you believe in the existence of three eternally existing, distinct divine persons.  That my friends is sheer polytheism, no matter how you try to spin it.

forgive me for being so silly, but i would go so far as to suggest that (just perhaps) I am the expert on what I think, and that maybe you are not ;)

Edited by cpwill
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  • 4 years later...
  • Advanced Member
that answer is somewhat easier; christianity is stronger, having produced (or been part of, depending on whether you belive a religion makes a society or a society makes a religion) a more adaptable culture.

take a look at the GDP of christian nations, compare it to muslim ones.

ditto for books written,

scientific discoveries made,

etc. etc. etc.

GDP? I did not know that Christians took monetary wealth as a marker of divine blessing. From reading scripture, Jesus (as) did not think much of people who had a lot of money. In fact, he said some thing like it is easier for a camel to go throught the eye of a needle than ... we know what. I would be loath to classify the modern west as Christian giving its gross materialism etc..

Also, Christianity does not have a more adaptable culture. It is the very fact that since Europe has become secular that it has produced an everchanging society; during its Christian period it was not so (feaudalsim, aristocracy, the power of the churches).

More books? Did you mean more book burnings during christian times? Christianity was a society of censorship. With the rise of secularism one gets an explosion of books.

Scientific discoveries? From what I understand the Catholic church was against a heliocentric world, even condemned those who preached it. Even today with evolution and the rancour it receives from Christians. Science was always secularly bent in the Christian world and took off as Christianity gave way to the rise of secularism. This same did not happen in Islam: both lived side by side.

sorry, back to the topic:

My answer was Judaism. Why? A religion that worships the God of Abraham (as) rather than a son of Abraham (as) has a more solid foundation. It also makes more sense.

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Jews are better monotheists because they Worship God alone, they reject Prophets, but they worship God. Christians shouldnt be classified as monotheists at all.

I would say "certain" christian sects, as well as certain existentialist christians I have come across.

Judaism was not always a monotheistic creed. The Jews had a habit of delving into polytheism despite all the miracles that were made for them; even the Torah says this. When their temple was destroyed, the anthropromorphic Yahweh was just the isolated deity that they would pray to; hence that's when the bunch in exodus that says "you shall have no gods before me" was likely written. It was only after encounter with Zoroastrians that Jews regained the belief in a universal god without parts or partner. Its likely that their monotheism was enhanced with encounters with muslims over the centuries as well, as its not uncommon for Jewish sages like Maimonides to rip off islamic concepts and incorporate them into judaism such as our concept of taqiyah.

Though I would argue Jewish monotheism isn't as strong as the muslim one. For instance Mainmonides declared, and seemingly made a new jewish doctrine, that angels are beings created by God "with whom G-d consults before taking action". Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being need to consult his own creations for advice? (SOURCE)

Edited by koroigetsuga
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Um, yeah, people have all kinds of concepts of What God is, and Who God is.

Bible says He's beyond human comprehension.

Still, there are those who insist that not only do they know the truth, but also know that you don't.

As cpwill said;

forgive me for being so silly, but i would go so far as to suggest that (just perhaps) I am the expert on what I think, and that maybe you are not ;)

I still remember in the first month I was here I was called a poly-theistic, idol worshipper.

I was a Christian, and he thought I worshipped the cross on the chain I wear.

For one thing, Not all Christians are trinitarians, and as I told Him about the cross, it's not as much for me, but it tells you right now that I am Christian.

i gotta say

jews are more monotheistic because at the mere mention of trinity they get hyper. Muslims too, for that matter.

Is there such a thing as hyper-monotheistic?

Which religion is stronger...the one forced to obey by tradition, and/or law, or those who venture to please God by following the written word, with prayer and supplication.

Trick question. I believe true followers are evident in each religion.

Edited by Son of Placid
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Which religion is stronger...the one forced to obey by tradition, and/or law, or those who venture to please God by following the written word, with prayer and supplication.

Excellent answer bro. Killing people people for breaking the sabbath, or for not being able to properly skin an apple and dispose of tithes, etc is truly insane, because a just God swt does not force his creations to worship him.

And its precisely because you and I follow the "no compuslion in relgion" card that we are best equipped to understand the love of God swt. Who says muslims and christians aren't the closest in faith :)

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ditto for books written,

scientific discoveries made,

etc. etc. etc.

Salaam.

You are far ahead of yourself. Islamic history has produced the greatest wealth of knowledge in almost all fields of science, philosophy, mathematics, and art. Compare it to the intellectual darkness which has impaired the pursuit of knowledge in Christian and Jewish history.

- Mansab

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Excellent answer bro. Killing people people for breaking the sabbath, or for not being able to properly skin an apple and dispose of tithes, etc is truly insane, because a just God swt does not force his creations to worship him.

I think it's the one that doesn't teach children to strap bombs to their bodies and blow up people in market squares.

PAKISTAN: Child suicide bombers “victims of the most brutal exploitation”

LAHORE, 12 February 2008 (IRIN) - Zarak Khan, 16, needs to do little more than sit in his chair, flicking through TV channels, to bring a fond smile to his mother’s face. Rehma Bibi is simply glad to have her oldest son at home and safe. “They wanted to make him into a suicide bomber, but we got him away from the seminary school,” she said.

Rehma, her husband Shaukat and their four children, moved from the town of Kohat in Pakistan’s North West Frontier Province (NWFP) almost a year ago, soon after removing Zarak from the seminary just outside the town where he had been enrolled since he was 12.

Shaukat had become alarmed by the teenager’s talk of suicide bombings and paradise - where he said those who carried out attacks on “enemies” went.

Fearing their son was being brainwashed into becoming a suicide bomber, the family moved to Lahore to ensure the teenager escaped the influence of his fanatical Islamic teachers and peers.

“We sent Zarak to a `madrassah’ (seminary) because we are poor and could not afford a regular school,” said Rehma. This is a common reality in today’s Pakistan.

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Though I would argue Jewish monotheism isn't as strong as the muslim one. For instance Mainmonides declared, and seemingly made a new jewish doctrine, that angels are beings created by God "with whom G-d consults before taking action". Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being need to consult his own creations for advice? (SOURCE)

I checked your source and it says no such thing.

And fortunately for Jews, we don't worship Rambam.

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I think it's the one that doesn't teach children to strap bombs to their bodies and blow up people in market squares.

When take away everything a man has; his land, his home and his family, then ofcourse such actions are predicted.

The Torah prescibes killing those who break the sabbath and that was the point we were making. God swt forcing people to worship him through fear (astagfurullah) is a primary theme of the Torah. Try reading before replying.

I checked your source and it says no such thing.

Yes it does you didn't read it properly

And fortunately for Jews, we don't worship Rambam.

No but you just take him as one of your highest authorities on Judaism. He is the father of the list of 613 miztvohs (the ones ripped of the Code of Hammurabi) and also the maker of the "13 principles of faith". If one of the most fundamental authorities in Judaism claim that "God swt consults with angels before taking action" then ahmadullilah I am all the more thankful he stayed a Jew.

Edited by koroigetsuga
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When take away everything a man has; his land, his home and his family, then ofcourse such actions are predicted.

Right, that's why Jewish settlers formed armed self-defense groups after Arabs began murdering Jews at the turn of the 20th century. In response to Jewish self-defense, more Arabs came with still more arms and murdered still more Jews.

After the end of WWI, when the Arab states which picked the losing side ... lost ... they again resorted to murdering Jews.

The British government, which was tasked with maintaining the peace in the "Palestinian (sic) Mandate" tried to prevent Arabs from killing Jews, but was largely unsuccessful. The result was that the Arab states sided with Hitler to have the Jews exterminated, not only in Europe, but in the Middle East as well. Fortunately, Hitler lost.

Having once again picked a losing side, the Arab states which surround Israel again resorted to violence. Britain finally gave up and in 1947 the U.N. Partition (resolution 181) was passed, dividing the Palestinian (sic) Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state, in the hopes of establishing peace. The Jews accepted the partition, the Arabs did not.

On May 14th, 1948, in accordance with U.N. Resolution 181, Israel declared independence. And was immediately attacked by five Arab nations. Israel won that war, but has been attacked countless times, including by the children I've mention that your religion teaches to strap bombs to their bodies, in countries all around the world, including ones that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ISREAL and kill innocent civilians.

The Torah prescibes killing those who break the sabbath and that was the point we were making. God swt forcing people to worship him through fear (astagfurullah) is a primary theme of the Torah. Try reading before replying.

I do read. Iran executes homosexuals, as do most Islamic states. Jews don't execute sabbath breakers.

Which religion is it that forces conformance through fear and intimidation? I can provide you with news articles in which violence against Muslims, by Muslim governments, for failing to obey Islamic laws are well documented.

Yes it does you didn't read it properly

I read it from top to bottom. And then when I couldn't find it, I used the "Search" function in my browser.

But now I will explain it to you.

Just as G-d does not have a body which can wear clothing, or have a finger with which to write, or an arm with which to lead us out of Egypt, goes does not have a literal "court" which He consults. HOWEVER, because G-d is King over Kings, if G-d DID have such a Holy Court of angels, G-d most certainly WOULD consult that court, because a righteous King does such things, and G-d is the The Most Righteous and The Most Wise of all Kings.

No but you just take him as one of your highest authorities on Judaism. He is the father of the list of 613 miztvohs (the ones ripped of the Code of Hammurabi) and also the maker of the "13 principles of faith". If one of the most fundamental authorities in Judaism claim that "God swt consults with angels before taking action" then ahmadullilah I am all the more thankful he stayed a Jew.

G-d does no such thing. It's a lesson for how righteous leaders are supposed to behave.

And his remaining a Jew is through no thanks at all to Muslims -- you are the ones who threatened to kill him if he didn't convert to Islam.

As for taking him as one of my highest authorities, I have only one authority -- Ha'Kadosh Baruch Hu, the Holy One, Blessed be He.

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