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Qizilbash

Matam and Tatbir

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This thread is coming off the rails. We'll let it carry on, as long as posters:

1. Say something meaningful in their posts

2. Do not sling curses and other attacks on each other

From this point on people not remaining civil will have action taken.

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^^u are again at it bro? Leave them. I took pain typing in a comprehensive reply on my phone in the other thread and I thought you got the answer. So why do you want to stop people and how many tines would you stop them even if you consider yourself right?

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If you read the whole thread you will see that the Majority of current Shia Marje ban it. So if any thing thing these malangs should be accorded a cult status

It's funny because many of these Marje know it's haram..but allow it to happen anyway.

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It's funny because many of these Marje know it's haram..but allow it to happen anyway.

Hmm they arent like the Wahhabis who allow suicide bombers to stop it. Agha Khameni does not allow it in Iran because he has both religious and political authority.

In other countries the Ayatullahs can only advise not enforce.

Bhai maine bola tha Na Kuch bhi Karlo Ye nahi sudhrega.

Speak the truth and I might listen simple really. I am allergic to liars

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^^u are again at it bro? Leave them. I took pain typing in a comprehensive reply on my phone in the other thread and I thought you got the answer. So why do you want to stop people and how many tines would you stop them even if you consider yourself right?

As I pointed out to you before you didnt even start to address the issue, you just raised new ones. Still awaiting for your replies.

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There was a Zanjeer video here posted by HOTHOT, showing a skin entire back reveleaed by his skin parting right down his back.

If you do not see the absolute pointless nature of zanjeer then, i really do not know where you will see it. The majority of non-muslims would be absolutely sickened and turned of Islam.

I decided to do a youtube search. Type shia's and the suggestions will be "shia's hitting them selves". Type ashura and this is the similar message you get.

It even turns a muslim like me away from you. Go and read the comments after these zanjeer videos. This has caused an absolutle outrage.

You can do this in your own private room, but this act is destroying islam. The painful thing is it's being done by our OWN muslims,

I will pray for the ones who do Tatbir to be guided Inshallah.

Edited by M R

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Thanks a ot for your input M R, really appreciate it and I will also pray for your guidance.

You can view that video in two different ways, for you viewing in that way it is haram to do such an act, for me who see's how much a miracle this matam is, where someone is able to 1) do that to themselves (must be something very strong behind it) 2) the healing of this to mention just 2, so for me it is allowed. It is all on interpretation....

This leads me to your point Br True Sunni - if the ruling is the same as I mentioned which is, if it gives a bad image. I am afraid it is on each occurrence and own person's interpretation. For you that ruling may lead you towards understanding it haram but to me if I believe there are places or times and ways it doesn't give a bad image then it is halal. If the marjaa meant to say its haram the premise of if it gives a bad image would not be there, that premise means to say there are instances when it is allowed.

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Thanks a ot for your input M R, really appreciate it and I will also pray for your guidance.

This leads me to your point Br True Sunni - if the ruling is the same as I mentioned which is, if it gives a bad image. I am afraid it is on each occurrence and own person's interpretation. For you that ruling may lead you towards understanding it haram but to me if I believe there are places or times and ways it doesn't give a bad image then it is halal. If the marjaa meant to say its haram the premise of if it gives a bad image would not be there, that premise means to say there are instances when it is allowed.

I am sorry this a rather creative interpretation . I do not see any where in the fatwa that allows the conclusions that you have reached. I shall add this to my list of methods employed by malangs to avoid reality.

Did you arrive at this conclusion yourself or did you ask 'malang central' to justify their continued stance on blood letting.

Edited by A true Sunni

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You agree that the fatwa states, If it does not give Islam a bad image then it is permissible.

In this case, it means there must be instances where it does not give Islam a bad image, otherwise it would have said due to giving Islam a bad image it is not permissible.

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You agree that the fatwa states, If it does not give Islam a bad image then it is permissible.

In this case, it means there must be instances where it does not give Islam a bad image, otherwise it would have said due to giving Islam a bad image it is not permissible.

I would recommend that you re-read that fatwa . The fatwa does not say that at all. The statement that you have given is the creative interpretation that malangs have given it.

Please reread it and open your eyes and read it. Take each paragraph and line in turn read it and digest it. Dont let your eyes skip to the last line and then think how can I overcome this fatwa. The fatwas wording and structure is a message in itself.

You didnt tell me where you got this creative interpretation from. Can you shed a little light on this please

Let me sumarise the malang position on blood letting and fatwas using Ayatullah Sistani as an example.

1)Post decades old fatwas

when challenged

2) No recent fatwa exists

3) Bloodletting allowed in Karbala and Najaf ergo he must allow it

when presented with latest fatwa

4)Claims that posted fatwa is a fake

5) My uncle/brother/friend told me........

6) Prove fatwa is genuine

7) creative interpretation

I think you went along the route 2,3,6,7

Edited by A true Sunni

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Question by Zaeem Sherazi: I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (ZANJEER) on the day of Ashura? What is it status in our Fiqh?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani:

The philosophy of mourning during 'Ashura', is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (as), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty.

These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals.

So those actions which are not understandable and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

I have split the ruling into 3 sections to make it easier for you to read. You will notice the final summation statement does not contain the word 'if' it says so.

All the previous statements are explanations of the final line

Edited by A true Sunni

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And in that fatwa, it says tatbir is haram?

If you go back to what you said on page 2 #29. I quoted the fatwa that if it gives a bad image and you said that is the fatwa you are talking about. So I do like your double standards, one minute that is the fatwa and one minute it isn't.

I have seen your posts for several years here, and I am pretty sure you are quite stubborn and argue the same old thing for ages just like you imply about 'Malangs'. I am not one to really waste time, better things to do, so if you bring me the answer to a simple question which is is Tatbir permissible, and the response says Tatbir is haram then yes I would take it. Otherwise it is open to interpretation. If you cannot do as such, then don't expect people to stop on your interpretation.

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A true sunni,

I would tell you to leave these people. As the Quran says, they beleive because their fathers beleive. Rationality is not required.

I won't though. Please carry on doing what you do. These people are before my own eyes ruining the name of Islam.

Proof:

The wide variety of Mujtahids on tatbir.org

Go and read the comments on EVERY youtube video following tatbir.

Ask non-muslims yourself ?

Even if you argue it has benefits (?), the disadvantages far outweigh any possible advantages. I personally would not care. I am angered because i am ashamed to say i am shia because i am associated with these acts.

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And in that fatwa, it says tatbir is haram?

If you go back to what you said on page 2 #29. I quoted the fatwa that if it gives a bad image and you said that is the fatwa you are talking about. So I do like your double standards, one minute that is the fatwa and one minute it isn't.

I have seen your posts for several years here, and I am pretty sure you are quite stubborn and argue the same old thing for ages just like you imply about 'Malangs'. I am not one to really waste time, better things to do, so if you bring me the answer to a simple question which is is Tatbir permissible, and the response says Tatbir is haram then yes I would take it. Otherwise it is open to interpretation. If you cannot do as such, then don't expect people to stop on your interpretation.

Like a typical malang you misquote the fatwa. Go reread the fatwa and tell me where it says what you claim it says. You think this creative misquoting is done just by you. Their is an entire industry devoted to misleading people as to what the Marje say about blood letting. Go on I dare you highlight the fatwa and then put underneath it your quote

A true sunni,

I would tell you to leave these people. As the Quran says, they beleive because their fathers beleive. Rationality is not required.

I won't though. Please carry on doing what you do. These people are before my own eyes ruining the name of Islam.

Proof:

The wide variety of Mujtahids on tatbir.org

Go and read the comments on EVERY youtube video following tatbir.

Ask non-muslims yourself ?

Even if you argue it has benefits (?), the disadvantages far outweigh any possible advantages. I personally would not care. I am angered because i am ashamed to say i am shia because i am associated with these acts.

A true sunni,

I would tell you to leave these people. As the Quran says, they beleive because their fathers beleive. Rationality is not required.

I won't though. Please carry on doing what you do. These people are before my own eyes ruining the name of Islam.

Proof:

The wide variety of Mujtahids on tatbir.org

Go and read the comments on EVERY youtube video following tatbir.

Ask non-muslims yourself ?

Even if you argue it has benefits (?), the disadvantages far outweigh any possible advantages. I personally would not care. I am angered because i am ashamed to say i am shia because i am associated with these acts.

Problem is it is incumbent on a muslim to challenge a lie if one sees it. Just because they repeat the lie ad nauseum doesnt mean that responsibility is lifted from your shoulders.

If you allow a lie to go by unchallenged you became party to that lie

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(bismillah)

People why get caught up so much regarding zanjeer/tatbir, if the malangs or any one else want to practise it bismillah, teach your kids the ways of it, as for those against it, these people are more stubborn than the elders of the community who cannot detatch from negative social aspects.

(bismillah)

Also, even if you consider it halal, i highly highly doubt this man, (first clip) whos back was tore apart, was able to be cleaned, stitched up, and able to do wudhu and pray, so is it still halal?

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(bismillah)

People why get caught up so much regarding zanjeer/tatbir, if the malangs or any one else want to practise it bismillah, teach your kids the ways of it, as for those against it, these people are more stubborn than the elders of the community who cannot detatch from negative social aspects.

(bismillah)

Also, even if you consider it halal, i highly highly doubt this man, (first clip) whos back was tore apart, was able to be cleaned, stitched up, and able to do wudhu and pray, so is it still halal?

Its because of the blatant lies. Do what you want to do but dont dress it up in a cloak of respectability. BULBs creative interpretation of the fatwa and blatant lie is a case in point.

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Its because of the blatant lies. Do what you want to do but dont dress it up in a cloak of respectability. BULBs creative interpretation of the fatwa and blatant lie is a case in point.

I see where the fustration comes from, but if you sat them infront of an ullema and was told its haram, theyd still consider it to be halal in some way or another

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I see where the fustration comes from, but if you sat them infront of an ullema and was told its haram, theyd still consider it to be halal in some way or another

A couple of years ago someone came on here and claimed he asked the question direct to Ayatullah Sistani. When he was told the fatwa as posted above he concluded that Ayatullah Sistani was somehow being held 'prisoner' by his translators and forced to give these fatwas.

He mentioned the 'silent appeal' from Ayatullah Sistani which indiacted to him that he was forced to give these rulings lol.

As to creative interpretations BULB is a case in point. I posted the fatwa he aknowledges it is correct but then 'quotes it' . I cannot find the words he claims are written in the fatwa.

Typical malang blindness

Edited by A true Sunni

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True Sunni, I did not expect you to be so daft to be entirely honest. As I said I simply stated what I had received in the past in this discussion at around post number 28. I stated that the only fatwa I have seen says that 'if it does not give Islam a bad image it is permissible'. In post number 29 you said that this is the current fatwa you are referring to which makes it haram, furthermore you private messaged me asking if I could send you this fatwa as you have not got a response. Therefore in post 29 what you acknowledged as the fatwa you are referring to says 'if it gives a bad image'. I for sure have received this fatwa on a question I asked in the past (within last 2years). No doubt there is a possibility by now it has changed, and if it has done then I am open to what the most recent fatwa says.

However it is evident that you in post number 29 claimed that the fatwa I referred to was the same you were referring then as the discussion went on you say there is no 'if it gives a bad image' in the fatwa. I am Alhamdullilalh with the thanks of Allah able to read and I am 100% sure of the fatwa I received in the past couple of years. It is not me that is interpreting the that fatwa that I have read, because it simply states if it gives a bad image, I do not believe it gives a bad image where and when I do it and so it does not apply to me at that point.

If my marja'a gives a fatwa which says in simple terms that tatbir is haram, I will respect and adhere to it as the study that person has gone through gives him much more knowledge than myself and he has qualified as a jurist. However, on what you interpret towards what your opinion is from the marja'as fatwa I am afraid whilst I am open minded and willing to change for the right reasons, your interpretations which I can very easily call creative interpretations too but I will resist as I believe your intentions are for truth and not simply to make things up, your interpretation does not satisfy that criteria of mine.

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True Sunni, I did not expect you to be so daft to be entirely honest. As I said I simply stated what I had received in the past in this discussion at around post number 28. I stated that the only fatwa I have seen says that 'if it does not give Islam a bad image it is permissible'. In post number 29 you said that this is the current fatwa you are referring to which makes it haram, furthermore you private messaged me asking if I could send you this fatwa as you have not got a response. Therefore in post 29 what you acknowledged as the fatwa you are referring to says 'if it gives a bad image'. I for sure have received this fatwa on a question I asked in the past (within last 2years). No doubt there is a possibility by now it has changed, and if it has done then I am open to what the most recent fatwa says.

However it is evident that you in post number 29 claimed that the fatwa I referred to was the same you were referring then as the discussion went on you say there is no 'if it gives a bad image' in the fatwa. I am Alhamdullilalh with the thanks of Allah able to read and I am 100% sure of the fatwa I received in the past couple of years. It is not me that is interpreting the that fatwa that I have read, because it simply states if it gives a bad image, I do not believe it gives a bad image where and when I do it and so it does not apply to me at that point.

If my marja'a gives a fatwa which says in simple terms that tatbir is haram, I will respect and adhere to it as the study that person has gone through gives him much more knowledge than myself and he has qualified as a jurist. However, on what you interpret towards what your opinion is from the marja'as fatwa I am afraid whilst I am open minded and willing to change for the right reasons, your interpretations which I can very easily call creative interpretations too but I will resist as I believe your intentions are for truth and not simply to make things up, your interpretation does not satisfy that criteria of mine.

Have you even read the fatwa. I private messaged you to establish your honesty on the issue. I see you arent honest because you keep trying misquoting it.

Your disengenuous comments about being open minded shout out the falseness of you comments because you word substitute in the fatwa so easily and twist the fatwa to meet your narrow agenda.

You have not disputed that the fatwa i posted is not the one you recieved from Ayatullah Sistani's office you just continue to twist. So either reject the fatwa I posted or stop twisting it. Simple really.

In addition in post 20 you claimed you had no fatwa. A few days later you miraculously claim you recieved one within 2 weeks.

Then on my PM to you claim you deleted it or lost it.

Inconsistency in your story. Only error I made was I misread you 'creative interpretation' . If you compare your creative interpretation to the fatwa I posted you will see a huge difference.

So all I can really say your posts are full of inconsistency and highly unlikely scenarios

Edited by A true Sunni

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Salaam Aleikum.

Please find below fatawas of well known scholars with regards to their view of self flagelation:

Fatawa

The following are the verdits of some of the highest ranking and most widely respected Shia scholars on the issue of blood mourning rituals such as Tatbir and Zanjeer:

Grand Ayatullah Khoei

“If blood matam and hitting oneself with chains, which are practiced in Muharram, cause serious harm, or harm or ridicule the religion and sect then it is impermissible.”

Al-Masa’il al-Shar’iyah, istifta’at Imam Khoei, al-Ibadat and al-Tariq al-Najah, v.2, p.445

Question:

During the days of Muharram particularly on Ashurah, the Shiah people hurt their backs with “Qameh” or chain, which is a bunch of small chains. Each chain is about 16 to 18 cm long. Each chain has a sharp small knife fixed in it. These people take off their shirts, and start hitting this “Qameh” on their back continuously for sometime, whilst saying, “Ya Hussain”. As a result their body bleeds very badly. Even their slacks or shalwars become wet with blood.

Regarding this action we have some questions as follows:

Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã What is the order of the shariah about hitting (with) such “Qameh” or chains? Please explain in detail.

Answer:

Bisimihi Taala. This action has not been mentioned anywhere in the Holy Shariah. Not only that, but in any case it causes damage and becomes a source of mockery for the others, it is haraam.

(B) Some people later on go and offer the prayer in the same clothes soaked with their blood. If someone raises any objection, they answer that this blood which has been shed in the name of Hazrat Imam Hussain (a) thorough the chain or qameh is not najis (ritually impure). Therefore there is no problem in reciting the prayer with this blood. It is humbly requested to your honour to explain the order of the shariah in extensive detail on this matter.

Answer:

Bismihi Taaala. As far as the taharat (purity) is concerned, this type of blood is not exempted, but it is just like the other blood of human beings in general and it does not make any difference.

Stamped: 18th Jumādā al-Ūlā 1409 AH. Ayatullah Khoei.

Click here to see the scanned image of the fatwa with the seal of the Ayatullah

Question:

“Hitting (one’s self) with chains and tatbir are from the rituals that we witness during the month of (Muharram). What is the ruling in the case of this action being harmful to the self along with bringing criticisms of others (towards the sect)?”

Answer:

“It is impermissible if it necessitates considerable harm, or entails degradation and humiliation.”

Source: Sirat al-Najat, v. 2, Q 1404

Grand Ayatullah Sistani

Question:

I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (Zanjeer) on the day of Ashura? What is it’s status in our Fiqh?

Answer:

The philosophy of mourning during ‘Ashura’, is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain, his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by the Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and cause misunderstandings and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

Click here to see a stamped fatwa with a similar reply.

The following question was sent to the liaison office of Ayatullah Sistani in London (najaf.org):

Question:

“Please tell me if cutting yourself in muharram for Imam Husayn (a) is haraam or not.”

Answer:

“Reviving Hussaini traditions is Mustahab but one is not allowed to Harm the body or the noble reputation of the Faith.”

The obligation of following the Hakim in issues such as this one. The Hakim in our era is Ayatullah Khamenei:

Question:

“Are the ahkam wila’iya (orders of the juristic authority) of the Wali Faqih implemented upon all the Muslims globally or is it specific to the area of his authority?”

Answer:

“The Hukm of the Mujtahid who fulfilled the criteria and is accepted by the general masses, is implemented without any bounds in what is related to ordaining society unless his mistake becomes apparent and was contrary to what is certainly proven from the Qur’an and Sunnah.” Fatwa number 134

“It is not permissible to abrogate/break the hukm (order/command/rule) of the (religious) governor/ruler (hakim), who meets all the necessary criterion (for governance/ruling), even by another mujtahid, except if it (the hukm) is contrary to what has been proven, with certainty, by the Qur’an and Sunnah.”

Minhaj al-Saleheen V. 1 page 15

Grand Ayatullah Abul Hassan Esfahani

Ayatullah Esfahani (1860–1946) was the highest ranking Shia jurist and the sole Marja of his time. He openly supported the stance of Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin on this issue.

“The usage of swords, chains, drums, horns and the likes today, which have become common in mourning ceremonies on Ashura, is definitely forbidden and against religious doctrine.”

Dayrah al-Ma”arif Tashayu’, v.2, p.531; A’yan al-Shia, v.10, p.378; Professor Hassan Shabir, Tarikh Iraq Mu’asir, v.2, p.340

Grand Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin Al-Amuli

Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin (~1868-1952), was one of the greatest scholars of his time. He is known for his biographical encyclopaedia, Ayan Al-Shi’ah (62 volumes) and for his very strong opposition to blood shedding rituals. He is known to have boycotted meetings where they were performed.

He wrote the book “Al-Majalis Al-Saniya” (1928) in which he said: “And what some people do injuring themselves with swords and hitting themselves in a way that harms them is from the encouragement of Shaytan”.

In 1927 he wrote “Rissalat Al-Tanzih” specifically to prove the prohibition of blood rituals and he declared them to be innovations (bid’ah). In it he wrote: “It is from the saddening things… using drums and flutes, and cutting the heads in a way that show the Shia in a barbaric way and make the others mock them… and on top of that (they) consider it a kind of worship and attribute it to the purified Ahlubayt (a).”

During his era, Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin’s position against blood flagellation was supported by a number of other scholars including: Ayatullah Abul Hassan Esfahani, Sayyid Muhammad Mahdi Al-Qazwini, Abd al-Karim Al-Jazairi, Shaikh Ali Al-Qummi, Shaikh Jafar Al-Budairi & Sheikh Mahdi Al-Hajjar.

Grand Ayatullah Khomeini

Ayatullah Khomeini was known for his very strong attachment to the remembrance of the tragedy of Karbala. He used the struggle of Imam Hussain (a) to inspire the Shia of Iran to revolt against the oppressive Shah (the Iranian uprisings began on Ashura). He would always remind people to involve themselves in mourning for Imam Hussain (a) and asked them to put a great deal of emphasis on the more natural mourning ceremonies. However he was not in favour of blood flagellation and other misguided practices.

His responses when asked about hitting oneself with blades:

“You want to do something for God, but in situations where your actions might harm Islam, refraining is best. Instead participate in chest beating processions endeavour to hold these events with greater glory.”

“In the current situation they are to refrain from blade beating. Passion plays are permitted as long as they do not include the forbidden practices and do not bring disrepute to religion. Reciting of the tragedies of the “master of the unjustly treated” (Imam Hussain (a)) is the noblest and most recommended (of actions) on this occasion.”

“Mourning and chest beating for the “unjustly treated” (the victims of the tragedy of Karbala) is amongst the best of religious practices, but the participants must exert due diligence to avoid wounds and the flowing of blood. If such actions bring about disrepute to the religion then they are forbidden. At any rate it is reccomended that the participants refrain from such actions.”

Click here to see these rulings with the official stamp.

“In his name, the Most High. Do not perform blood matam or the likes in the present state. If it does not include forbidden actions or defamation of the religion than there is no problem. Although, reciting poetry is better and mourning the Sayyid of the Oppressed is of the best forms of worship.”

Istifta’at Imam, v.3, miscellaneous questions, question 37.

“I should speak here about the gatherings and memorial ceremonies that are held in the name of Imam Hussain Ibn Ali (a), neither us nor (other) religious persons say that everything done by anybody is correct and good. Many times some of the grand scholars considered these things deviated and bad and they forbade them. We all know that in the last 20 years and so the respected scholar Hajj Sheikh Abdul Kareem Al-Haeri Al-Yazdi (q), who was among the eminent Shia scholars, forbade the Shia from acting out the events and persons of Ashura, and he replaced them with a gathering for mourning and elegies, and this is what the other scholars do with the actions that contradict with the religious rules and they still forbid it until now.”

“Nahdat Ashura”, page 110-111.

“You should know that in order to preserve your progress then you should preserve these rituals, and of course if there are deviated and wrong actions done by some people who are not informed, then these actions should be stopped. But the mourning ceremonies and the processions should remain strong.”

“Nahdat Ashura”, page page 112.

Ayatullah Mutahhari

“Blood matam in its present form does not have a rational or religious basis. It is a clear instance of deviation. At least, in the present day it causes Shi’ism to be questioned. Activities that do not have any relation to the goals of Imam Husayn (a) are razors, blades and locks. Striking the head with a blade is the same. This is a mistake. Some people take blades and strike their heads making blood flow – for what? This action is not mourning.”

Howzah va Ruhaniyat, v.3

In his book “Al Malahama Al-Husainiya”, Ayatullah Mutahhari adopts Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin’s opnion.

Grand Ayatullah Muhammad Baqir Al-Sadr

Ayatullah Al-Sadr speaking about the commemoration of the tragedy of Karbala:

“the commemoration is a thorn in the eyes of the tyrants, and these rituals have implanted in the hearts of the generations the love of Imam Hussain(a.s.) and the love of Islam, therefore we should preserve them although some of them need polish and modification.”

“Al-Shaheed Al-Sadr”, Shaykh Muhammad Rida Al-Numani (a very close student of the sayyid), Published Qom.

Grand Ayatullah Khamenei

Ayatullah Khamenei, in his position as the Hakim Al-Shari’i has given a Hukm forbidding blood flagellation. A hukm is binding on all Muslims, unlike a fatwa.

Question 1450:

Is hitting oneself with swords halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

Answer:

In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.

Question 1449:

In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi‘ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?

Answer:

Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt’s (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.

Question 1451:

What is the shar‘i criterion in determining physical or psychological damage?

Answer:

The criterion is noticeable and considerable harm judged by common sense.

Practical Laws of Islam.

“Blood matam is a part of the culture that was made up. It is an issue that has no relation to religion and, without doubt, Allah is not happy with it.”

“It is an incorrect action which some people perform – taking a blade in one’s hand and hitting themselves on the head with it spilling their blood. What do they do this for? How is this action considered mourning? Of course, hitting one’s head with their hands is a form of mourning. You have seen over and over again, a person who has had something bad happen to them, hit themselves on their head and chest. This is a normal sign of mourning. But, have you ever seen a person who has had something bad happen to their most loved (ones) hit themselves on the head with a sword until blood flows down? How is this action considered mourning?”

A speech given to scholars of Kahgiluyeh and Bavir Ahmad, Muharram, 1372

Grand Ayatullah Muhammad Hussain Kashif Al-Ghita

Ayatullah Muhammad Hussain Kashif Al-Ghita (d. 1954) was one of the greatest scholars of his time.

“If we want to act in accordance to jurisprudential principles and the derivation of religious rulings regarding the issue of mourning by hitting the face and other practices like blood matam (which are prevalent in the modern age) we will not find anything except forbiddance. We will not have any choice in issuing a verdict stating that these actions are forbidden. The reason is that there have been no exceptions to the principles of the forbiddance of causing harm to ones body or endangering the life of a human in this regard. Therefore, there is no reason for these actions to have any other ruling than forbiddance. But, most of the people who perform such actions do so more to show themselves off or to be fanatic; they do not perform such actions with pure intentions. This, in itself, is problematic; rather it is also forbidden because of some reasons involved with the age and the location as well.”

Al-Firdus al-Ala’, p.19-22

Grand Ayatullah Lankarani

Q4: I have a question about blood matam or what is known as Qama zani or Tatbir? What is your ruling about using blades, knives, swords and spilling blood during mourning rituals? Is it permissible?

A4: It is necessary to act during Muharram rituals in such manner that it attracts others to the Imam Husain and his holy objective. So it is advisable to narrate the history of Ashura, cry, beat the chest and hold lamentation ceremonies, so it will cause Islam to be disseminated and the memory of those devotions to be revived. But to wound oneself with a poniard or a knife or sword which has no rational basis and justification for Islam’s foes will play a negative role; therefore, it is necessary for the Shiites believing in Imam Hussein’s school to avoid it.

Q&A section at the bottom of the home page.

“Keeping in mind the interest that has been seen throughout the world about Islam and Shiaism after the victory of the Islamic revolution in Iran, and keeping in mind that Islamic Iran has been considered throughout the world as the ‘mother of the Islamic world,’ and keeping in mind that the actions of the Iranian nation are taken as a role model for Islam, it is necessary, while mourning for the Master of the Martyrs, Abi Abdullah al-Husayn (as), to act in such a way that more interest and a stronger love in that personality and his holy mission will occur. It is clear that in this situation blood matam does not play this role; rather it has a negative effect because it cannot be accepted and has no form of proof to be understood by its opponents. Therefore, it is necessary for the Shia’s who love Imam Husayn’s (as) school of thought to refrain from it. If one had an oath in this regard, the oath would not have the conditions of a correct oath.”

Jama’ al-Masa’il, issue 2173.

“Moreover, the use of cutting tools for lamentation is not considered a customary means/method for mourning.”

Email answer [#838505], Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004

Grand Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi

“The mourning congregations have to do their best to hold this ceremony as magnificent as possible, they should not permit anyone to do some acts which vilify the religion and give pretext to the enemies using the name of mourning congregation, acts like using music instruments, striking heads by sword, etc. although some people do these acts due to their passion toward imam Husain (a), but they should express this passion in a way that is acceptable and admitted by Imam Mahdi (a).”

source

Grand Ayatullah Jawad Tabrizi

“Mourning the five people of the cloak is of the most important signs of religion and the secret to the survival of the Shia. But, it is necessary for our dear mourners to refrain from actions which defame the religion and are misused by the enemies of Islam.”

Istafta’at, question 2003, 2012, 2014

Question:

“Hitting (one’s self) with chains and tatbir are from the signs/rituals that we witness during the month of (Muharram). What is the ruling in the case of this action being harmful to the self along with bringing criticisms of others (towards the sect)?”

Answer:

“The inclusion of the aforementioned (acts) under the category of recommended grief for what occurred to the Master of Martyrs is problematic/doubtful.”

Source: Sirat al-Najat, v. 2, Q 1404

Grand Ayatullah Basheer Hussain Al-Najafi

Question:

“Is it permissable to do qama and zanjeer zani hitting yourself with sword and knives?”

Answer:

“Bismahe Subhana

It is permitted unless Mawla Imam Hussain’s (as) and the Ahl-ul-Bayt’s persecution are considered as propaganda or if he is not allowed by his doctor because it might result in death or losing of a body part. Matam-qama or matam-zanjeer should not be done if he is settled in a part of the world where people due to their ignorance or lack of knowledge about Imam Hussain (as) after watching such matam are turned away from Imam Hussain (as). Therefore it should be avoided in front of such people.

Allah Knows Better.”

Source.

Grand Ayatullah Muhammad Ibrahim Jannaati

“One of the practices that is against religious rules in some of the mourning ceremonies is Qameh-Zani (drawing blood through cutting one’s scalp with a machete), a practice which is against reason and against the manner practiced by the imams. This practice in no way can be considered among the authentic religious rituals.”

“Imam Khomeini and the Culture of Ashura”, 1995, page 66.

“Refrain from performing these actions which are inappropriate, cause harm to the religion, and are imbalanced and superstitious. They have no jurisprudential foundations and cause the face of Islam and Shiaism to become damaged.”

Grand Ayatullah Kadhim Al-Haeri

“We have witnessed that blood matam and the likes have caused the face of Islam and Shiaism to be destroyed. The disbelieving enemy in our time uses such actions to attack us; to introduce our religion as a superstitious, barbaric religion.”

“Secondly, regardless whether or not we have the same view of blood matam, it is necessary to obey the commands of the Wali al-Faqih, Ayatollah Khamenei, in this regard. The reason behind this is that he has taken a clear stance in this regard and has not left any room for disobedience. It is obligatory on all Muslims to obey his commands; those who agree with his verdict or perform taqlid to him and those who do not agree with him on this verdict or perform taqlid to someone else. In any case, it is obligatory on all Muslims to follow him because he is the Wali al-Faqih.”

http://www.alhaeri.co/

Grand Ayatullah Mazaheri

Question:

“What jurisprudential ruling does blood matam have?”

Answer:

“Everyone must refrain from this action because the Wali al-Faqih forbids it – even if they follow someone who permits it.”

www.almazaheri.ir

Grand Ayatullah Moslem Malakouti

“The mourning sessions of the Master of the Martyrs, the grandson of the Noble Prophet (s) must be conducted in a method suitable to the Imam (a). It should not cause harm or weaken Islam or the Shia sect; rather, like his movement, it should cause the survival of Islam and Muslims; it should be a source of pride for them being free from all forms of innovation and superstition.”

Grand Ayatullah Noori Hamedani

“The school of thought of the Master of the Martyrs, Abi Abdullah al-Husayn (as) is a school of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil, a school of raising Islamic merits. The history of Ashura which moves people has been the source of energy for all movements against oppression. The reason behind this is it ‘boils the blood’ of the lovers of this school of thought, especially in the present condition where the enemy has been slapped by Islam and its illegitimate benefits have been taken away. Therefore, it is necessary for the mourning sessions to be conducted in a beautiful way; that is a way that is in congruence with Islamic logic. Respected mourners must, instead of hitting their heads with a blade, think about hitting the enemy’s head who is occupying and weakening them, who is usurping their benefits and putting their Islam in danger on a daily basis.”

Istifta’at, v.2, p.597

Ayatullah Salehi Mazandarani

“There are no rational or lexical proofs, nor are there any principles, that can support blood matam in the mourning sessions of the leader of the martyrs, Imam Husayn (a), being permissible, let alone recommended. Furthermore, the principles and secondary rulings testify to its forbiddance. Therefore it is necessary to refrain from it.”

Ayatullah Jawadi Amuli

“Something that causes defamation to the religion and destroys the respect of the mourners is impermissible. It is expected for people to refrain from blood matam and the likes.”

Ayatullah Ibrahim Amini

“Taking into account that the above issue has not been established religiously and it causes defamation to the Shia school in the present age it is necessary for the mourners of Imam Husayn (as) to refrain from it. Mourning for the Leader of the Martyrs, Aba Abdullah al-Husayn (as) is a form of worship that gets one close to Allah, the glorified, and the infallible Imams (as). Therefore, in this issue there is emphasis; moreover, it is obligatory for the lovers of the Ahl al-Bayt to refrain from performing the above mentioned action. The reason behind this is, firstly this action is not considered an act of mourning in the common view and it is only recommended if it is considered that. Secondly, in the present age, this action is considered superstitious and causes defamation to the Shia school.”

“Thirdly, Ayatollah Khamenei strongly forbids such actions and it is necessary for all Muslims and followers of the Wali al-Faqih to obey him and disobeying him is forbidden. Therefore, it is expected from all Shias in mourning sessions to refrain from these actions. (May) Allah, make us amongst the true followers of Imam Hussayn (a).”

Ayatullah Ali Meshkini

“Mourning for that holy personality is a political action; therefore, it must not be mixed with actions that would lessen its political effect, that would be considered superstitious, or that would defame Islam. Even if the person performing blood matam does not have the intention of harming Islam it is still an innovation and forbidden.”

“After accepting what was mentioned, it is problematic according to religious sources; some have even considered it forbidden in and of itself. Muslims must refrain from bringing this into mourning sessions for Hussain (as), which is a form of worship.”

Ayatullah Muhammad Wa’id Zadeh Khurasani

“One of the duties of ulama is to stop the intrusion of innovations and deviations in the domain of religion. Among the obvious deviations is the practice of qameh-zani (striking one’s head with a dagger) in mourning ceremonies for Imam Husayn (A) and qufl-zani (placing a padlock on their bodies) both historic and as a forthright way of confronting of an Imam with the intention of fulfilment of a prayer and removing it on its fulfilment) witnessed during the commemoration of Imam Husayn’s (A) martyrdom. The Shi’ah ulama, well meaning people and reformers have been distressed about this obvious innovation (bid’at).”

“Imam Khomeini and the Culture of Ashura”, 1995, page 140.

Ayatullah Ali Rasti Kashani

“Mourning for Abi Abdullah al-Husayn, the Master of the Martyrs (a), is of the best methods of seeking proximity to Allah and renewing one’s life and Islam. It is upon the Muslims to hold these ceremonies in a grand fashion and to refrain from committing any action which harms Islam or helps the enemies of Islam.”

“It is obligatory on all Muslims to refrain from such actions and to follow the leadership which will make the enemies of Islam loose hope in harming Islam.”

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Tijani Al-Samawi

Shaykh Al-Tijani is the famous author of the book “Then I was Guided”, in which he describes his conversion from Sunni Islam to Shia Islam.

“As for self-flagellation, it is not one of the doctrines of the Shi`as, nor is it a part of their creed. Rather, it is what some commoners do, and Shi`as are not the only ones who practice it. There are some Sunnis, particularly those who follow the [sufi] Aysawi tareeqa, which is well known throughout all of north Africa, who practice rituals more damaging to Islam’s image than what some Shi`as do. Yet by practicing them they do not express their grief for the tragedy that befell Imam al-Husayn, nor for the suffering of Ahl al-Bayt, peace be upon them.

We agree with the author’s statement in his book in this regard, and we would like to work with him to remove this phenomenon from all Muslim lands. There are many sincere Shi`a scholars who prohibit such an abomination and try hard to put an end to it, as al-Musawi himself admits.”

Source

Ayatullah Hassan Tehrani

“In the present conditions, the issue that was mentioned causes harm to the Shia sect and is impermissible. Also, obeying the hukm of the Wali al-Faqih in this matter is necessary.”

Ayatullah Muhammad Abtahi

“One must refrain from committing actions that cause harm to the religion and it is obligatory to obey the commands of the Wali al-Faqih.”

Ayatullah Ustadi

“In accordance with what the Wali al-Faqih said, it is necessary for those who want to hold mourning sessions for Abi Abdullah al-Hussayn (a) to use methods which glorify divine symbols and to refrain from using actions which, in his words, cause harm to the religion. With hope that everyone fall’s under the leader of the martyr’s (a) grace.”

Ayatollah Ahmadi Miyanji

“An action which causes harm to the religion is impermissible. In addition, after the hukm by the supreme leader, there is no more room for questions; it is obligatory to obey his order.”

“An action with causes harm to the religion is impermissible.”

Ayatullah Muhammadi Gilani

“Whatever causes harm to Islam is definitely forbidden, especially when the Wali al-Faqih also forbids it. It obligatory for all to obey the command.”

Ayatullah Mahmoud Shahroudi

Speaking about how mourning activities must be performed:

“In his name, the Most High… But, there are three conditions that must be followed in regards to how they are performed:

2. That which does not cause harm to the religion and the Shia sect, or the Islamic society, or the Islamic republic. The reason is that if harm is caused to any one of these it would be of the greatest sin. Specifying this matter is in the hands of the Wali al-Faqih. This means that if the Wali al-Faqih specifies this matter in special circumstances in that an action is against the good nature of the Islamic society or causes harm to the religion of the Islamic republic and because of this forbids that action – it would be obligatory for all to obey him. In this case no mukhallaf can act in accordance to his own opinion.”

Ayatullah Abbas Mafuzi

“One must refrain from that which causes harm to the religion and obeying the Wali al-Faqih is necessary.”

Ayatullah Shar’i

“The Wali al-Faqih, Ayatollah Khamenei, considers the Ashura movement to be one of the strongest weapons for Shiism. It has been established in history and traditions have been narrated by the infallibles (a) which state that mourning the Master of the Martyrs is of the best forms of worship. There has been strong emphasis on it. He states that cultural Ashura movements must depict and strengthen the message of jihad and self-sacrifice in Islam and in this sect. Blood matam is an action that is not in congruence with the principle purposes of this movement. They cause harm to the Ashura movement. Therefore, it is obligatory on all Muslims to obey the orders and hukms of the Wali al-Faqih of the Islamic world. It is self-evident that taking this lightly and not obeying it will anger Allah.”

Ayatollah Muqtada’i

“By specifying the situation and announcing the hukm forbidding blood matam, for example that which was issued by the wali al-faqih, Ayatollah Khamenei, it becomes obligatory on all Muslims to obey this ruling; disobeying it is forbidden.”

Ayatullah Muhammad Yazdi

“It is necessary for everyone to obey the hukm of the Wali al-Faqih. Disobeying it is a sin and will have different punishments. Many of the mentioned items are clearly against the religion and are forbidden, and some of them cause harm to Islam. In addition to this, obeying the hukm of the Wali al-Faqih, Sayyid Ali Khamenei, is obligatory on all and disobeying it is a sin and will have different punishments. No other opinion can make it permissible to disobey the hukm of the Wali al-Faqih. The right of issuing hukms is limited to the Wali al-Faqih and a verdict (fatwa) does not overrule a hukm.”

Ayatullah Jafar Karimi

“With the jurisprudential opinion of the Wali al-Faqih, Ayatollah Khamenei, in mind, it is religiously forbidden and will be a cause of punishment to perform such actions which were alluded to claiming that they are forms of mourning and by disobeying the order of the Wali al-Faqih which is obligatory to follow.”

Ayatullah Muhsin Kharazi:

“In regards to what was mentioned, it is necessary and obligatory to obey the Wali al-Faqih and the Islamic leader.”

Ayatullah Muhammad Mumin

“Obeying the hukms of the Wali al-Faqih is obligatory.”

Ayatullah Muhsin Haram Pinahi

“It is obligatory to obey the hukms of the Wali al-Faqih.”

Ayatullah Ahmad Adhari Qumi

“Disobeying the Wali al-Faqih is a great sin and causes the holy Islamic government to be weakened. It is not obligatory to observe previous oaths; rather it is forbidden.”

Ayatullah Mussawi Tabrizi

“Mourning in the days of Muharram and Safar and keeping alive the holy mission of Hussayn bin Ali (a) is of the best forms of worship. Any action which causes harm to Islam and the holy mission of Aba Abdullah (a) is forbidden. Obeying the hukm of the wali al-faqih is obligatory.”

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