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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can you justify animal rights while eating meat?

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Zain

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(salam)

In Islam we are required to respect animals. Sometimes it is difficult to justify animal rights when our religion allows slaughtering some of these animals.

For example (correct me if I am wrong), when one cuts a lamb, he must slice the neck with a knife. Meaning the knife has to slice back and forth while the lamb struggles and basically dies. Chopping off the head is not allowed even though it would be less painfful for the animal (it would die instantly).

Any comments?

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(bismillah)

It's makrooh to work in an abbatoir for a living, because it makes the heart hard.

cutting off the head completely isn't less painful, this has been proven scientifically, and someone had posted it up about a year or so ago, so do a lil search and find it.

Wassalaam

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(bismillah)

I pinched this from some site:

The scientific facts

A team at the university of Hannover in Germany examined these claims through the use of EEG and ECG records during slaughter. Several electrodes were surgically implanted at various points of the skull of all the animals used in the experiment and they were then allowed to recover for several weeks. Some of the animals were subsequently slaughtered the halal way by making a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides together with the trachea and esophagus but leaving the spinal cord intact. The remainder were stunned before slaughter using a captive bolt pistol method as is customary in Western slaughterhouses. The EEG and ECG recordings allowed to monitor the condition of the brain and heart throughout.

The Halal method

With the halal method of slaughter, there was not change in the EEG graph for the first three seconds after the incision was made, indicating that the animal did not feel any pain from the cut itself. This is not surprising. Often, if we cut ourselves with a sharp implement, we do not notice until some time later. The following three seconds were characterised by a condition of deep sleep-like unconciousness brought about by the draining of large quantities of blood from the body. Thereafter the EEG recorded a zero reading, indicating no pain at all, yet at that time the heart was still beating and the body convulsing vigorously as a reflex reaction of the spinal cord. It is this phase which is most unpleasant to onlookers who are falsely convinced that the animal suffers whilst its brain does actually no longer record any sensual messages.

The Western method

Using the Western method, the animals were apparently unconscious after stunning, and this method of dispatch would appear to be much more peaceful for the onlooker. However, the EEG readings indicated severe pain immediately after stunning. Whereas in the first example, the animal seizes to feel pain due to the brain starvation of blood and oxygen – a brain death, to put it in laymen’s terms – the second example first causes a stoppage of the heart whilst the animal still feels pain. However, there are no unsightly convulsions, which not only means that there is more blood retention in the meat, but also that this method lends itself much more conveniently to the efficiency demands of modern mass slaughter procedures. It is so much easier to dispatch an animal on the conveyor belt, if it does not move.

Appearances can deceive

Not all is what it seems, then. Those who want to outlaw Islamic slaughter, arguing for a humane method of killing animals for food, are actually more concerned about the feelings of people than those of the animals on whose behalf they appear to speak. The stunning method makes mass butchery easier and looks more palatable for the consumer who can deceive himself that the animal did not feel any pain when he goes to buy his cleanly wrapped parcel of meat from the supermarket. Islamic slaughter, on the other hand, does not try to deny that meat consumption means that animals have to die, but is designed to ensure that their loss of life is achieved with a minimum amount of pain.

The holistic view

Islam is a balanced way of life. For Muslims, the privilege of supplementing their diet with animal protein implies a duty to animal welfare, both during the rearing of the animal and during the slaughter. Modern Western farming and slaughter, on the other hand, aims at the mass consumer market and treats the animal as a commodity. Just as battery hens are easier for large-scale egg production, Western slaughter methods are easier for the meat industry, but they do neither the animal nor the end consumer any favours. The Islamic way guarantees a healthier life for the animal and a healthier meat for the consumer.

Wassalaam

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We gotta eat them if we want to survive. :unsure:

Salaam,

Oh really? How come there are millions of vegetarians and vegans on this planet who are, in general, in much better health than the majority of meat eaters?

Wasalaam,

Irfan Ali

Aslamo 3alikum,

They are in no way better in health than us, the Non-Veg.

Dont look upon individuals who are Vegetarians, rather see those who have been Veg. for centuries (so that you can see it's affects). The "majority" are weak and small.

Secondly, why is it humanitarian to eat one living thing (Vegetables), but non-humanitarian to eat other living things (animals) :huh:

Wa'Salam

Ali

Edited by Peer
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cutting off the head completely isn't less painful, this has been proven scientifically, and someone had posted it up about a year or so ago, so do a lil search and find it.

(salam)

That doesn't make sense. When a human is executed the head is chopped off. I couldn't even imagine the pain if a person's neck is slowly sliced open.

First, why must you slander SpongeBob by associating him with the Salafabies?! 

:!!!:

Properly done, zabiha slaughter can be as close to a painless way of slaughter with a minimum of stress on the animals as possible. However, since Islamic ethics is aiming to reduce suffering as much as possible on these animals, many halal slaughter operations now do use pre-slaughter stunning. This is done either with the caveat that the stunning is recoverable (i.e. electrical stunning), and/or that slaughter is done before the animal dies from the stunning. So captive bolt pistol use is acceptable, in that the animal is immediately stunned/has really no suffering, and is then immediately slaughtered with the throat cut.

I am pretty sure in many areas (especially under developed) they do not stun the animal. Also, what about fish. They are taken out of the water and suffocate to death. Any special procedure for the fishies?

Secondly, why is it humanitarian to eat one living thing (Vegetables), but non-humanitarian to eat other living things (animals) 

Peer, vegetables can't feel pain. They also can't fall in love either :rolleyes: .

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^ How do you know that? They are living things who respire, reproduce, eat (some even eat insects) etc.

They cant tell you that they are feeling pain but how do you know that they DONOT feel any pain.

Do animals fall in love? :P And if yes, then plants also fall in love and produce offsprings ^_^

Wa'Salam

Ali

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They are in no way better in health than us, the Non-Veg.

(salam)

i dunno man... my husband and i have been vegan for the last 6 years (having been raised as meat eaters the first (apprx.) 20 years of our lives, and we are in the best health of our lives. also i was vegan throughout all of my pregnancies and all of my children are off the growth charts and full of energy (and they're both smarty pants :P ).

tell me this... why in america, where we consume more meat and dairy than any other country in the WORLD, do we have more obesity related disease and more osteoperosis than the rest of the world? hmmmm? could the meat and dairy industry be LYING about the health benefits of eating huge amounts of meat and dairy every day? you think?

during the prophet's time, they did NOT eat meat every day, three times a day. and i will admit that if i lived in a desert climate, i WOULD eat meat if i needed it to be healthy. the fact just is though, that in the states, it is SO EASY to get all your nutrients and protein from non-animal sources... AND halaal slaughter is one thing, but the american meat industry is something else. (*ugh*)

Dont look upon individuals who are Vegetarians, rather see those who have been Veg. for centuries (so that you can see it's affects). The "majority" are weak and small.

at the risk of sounding silly, what about elephants? i mean they're vegetarians, and they are WAY bigger and stronger than you are. :)

khalilah

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^ Sis Salam,

Your husband and you might be veg. for last six years but what I actually meant was that like e.g., in some religions people aren't allowed to eat meat. Now look at those people whose ancestors have been following this tradition for generations and look at them.

The normal people in west or in east (amonsgt Muslims) are those who are veg. themselves but their parents who passed the genes are Non-Veg. So I think it really matters..

About the elephants: :angel:

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There is a site on web about a chicken who lived for 2 years without a head.

The farmer just cut off the head of chicken without cutting of the main vein

It was a really tough life for that Chicken. He couldnt eat anything because he didnt have a head. They had to feed it through a tube

It was horrible how he died

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.htm

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Salam,

I dont think the argument should be about what is better... to eat or not to eat meat. Vegetarians can survive quite adequately without meat, but their diets will be lacking essential nutrients and proteins, which they will have to supplement by eating other things. But point is humans were not designed to be herbivores... we are omnivores, we eat and we digest both veg and meat... so why go against design? elephants are herbivores, their body and all its physiological processes are adapted to eating and processing veg, so its big and strong.. good for the elephant. However, u try feedin an elephant meat and it wont survive for very long....it goes against its nature. Same way if you try and feed a lion veg and only veg, he'll be dying very quickly..... but we humans hav the best of both worlds, its to enable us to enjoy ALL of the foods and luxuries that are around us, and to maximise our chances of survival, so that if one type of food is not available, we can still manage coz we are not entirely reliant on meat or veg.

Its true though, that people eat way too much meat... but then too much of anything is a bad thing. Doesnt mean that eating moderate amounts of meat will make u unhealthy... on the contrary, it will provide u with all the essential material to help u build and maintain a healthy and strong body...essential amino acids and fats etc that are only available in meat

anyway, Vegetarians have really really smelly farts. :sick:

The story is simple, we gotta eat... and to eat we gotta kill animals and we gotta kill plants. Killing is never easy and is never pretty, but i think that seeing an animal suffer a little for our sake, gives it back its dignity and allows us to appreciate the sacrifice that this animal made, so we appreciate it more and we are more thankful and respectful when we com to eat its meat. People are used to meat being nicely and cleanly packaged on supermarket shelves, and they dont spare a thought for the animal that this meat once was. no respect.

All we can do is to minimise the animal's suffering, and to kill it in the quickest and most humane way. The halal slaughter method is not clean and not pretty, but humane for the sake of the animal.

Edited by jnoubeh
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cutting off the head completely isn't less painful, this has been proven scientifically, and someone had posted it up about a year or so ago, so do a lil search and find it.

(salam)

That doesn't make sense. When a human is executed the head is chopped off. I couldn't even imagine the pain if a person's neck is slowly sliced open.

[

(bismillah)

Did you read my other posts?

Wassalaam

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anyway, Vegetarians have really really smelly farts.  :sick:

(salam)

Is this true bro Irfan Ali? :P

Did you read my other posts?

I did read it, it was interesting. The only thing is that I have seen this many times with my eyes, and the lamb starts kicking it's legs. Pretty sad sight. Its hard to believe that they don't feel any pain (according to the article you posted).

One of my uncles said he saw a tear coming out of the goat while cutting it. He stopped sacrificing goats after that.

Edited by zain
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(bismillah)

Islam has stressed that one respect animals and observe their rights. The Prophet pbuh impressed this so much that some detractors started mocking him by saying he has given more rights to the camel than the rider. How the people act upon these guidances is another matter, Islam is perfect, Muslims are not.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said, “An animal has rights on its owner including feeding it as soon as he alights (before he himself eats).

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salaam

two things...

1... there is a stockyard near where i live when i know for a fact that some muslims go there to buy animals to slaughter themselves. i also know though, that most of these animals are mistreated on the "farms" where they are raised. does it matter islamically how the animal is treated before it is slaughtered?

2... what is the reason that we are supposed to look into the eyes of the animal as we slaughter it?

khalilah

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(bismillah)

2... what is the reason that we are supposed to look into the eyes of the animal as we slaughter it?

I did not find this among the rulings, but these may be of interest:

2608. The Fuqaha, may Allah bless them with His Pleasure, have enumerated certain Mustahab acts for slaughtering the animals:

1. While slaughtering the sheep (or a goat), both of its hands and one foot should be tied together and the other foot should be left free. As for a cow, its two hands and two feet should be tied and the tail should be left free.

And in the case of a camel, if it is sitting, its two hands should be tied with each other from below up to its knees, or below its armpits, and its feet should be left free. And it is recommended that a bird should be left free after being slaughtered so that it may flap its wings and feathers.

2. Water should be placed before an animal before slaughtering it.

3. An animal should be slaughtered in such a way that it should suffer the least, that is, it should be swiftly slaughtered with a very sharp knife.

2609. In certain Traditions, the following have been enumerated as Makrooh acts while slaughtering the animals:

1. To slaughter an animal at a place where another animal of its own kind can see it.

2. To skin an animal before it has died.

3. To slaughter an animal on Friday night (i.e. the night preceding Friday), or on Friday before Zuhr. However, there is no harm in doing so in the case of necessity.

4. To slaughter an animal which someone has bred and reared himself.

The rulings on the slaughtering of animals can be found here: http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/fiqh...laughtering.htm

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Hey Zain, you're talking about the seeming contradiction between Muslims being allowed to eat meat/slaughter animals and still respect them, right? I.e., if Muslims are supposed to respect animals, why aren't they also supposed to be vegetarians?

Remember that in Arabia in the Prophet's (pbuh) time- it simply wasn't feasable for prole to not eat meat. Farming wasn't reliable enough, and would not have provided people with neccessary nutrients and protein at the time. Healthy vegetarians are a relatively recent phenomenon- and vegetarians need a widely varied diet to make up the proteins, minerals, and fats meat-eaters get in meat. Fore those reasons, many people in less consumer-oriented countries, even today, would not be able to live as vegetarians.

I.e., if vegetarianism had been mandated by Islam, a lot of people (including those who love animals and would love to do right) would be unable to be good Muslims because they rely on meat as a staple of their diet, and cannot live without it. I.e., banning meat-eating wouldn't have made sense, as people wouldn't be able to live up to such a standard.

Therefore, Muhammad (pbuh) tells us that we are allowed to eat meat, but requires that a meat animal is well-treated and humanely slaughtered. In terms of animal rights, it's the next best option (second only to madating vegetarianism) and the only one humans can reasonably abide by in most cases without going hungry.

Edited by Trekker
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Salam,

I dont think the argument should be about what is better... to eat or not to eat meat. Vegetarians can survive quite adequately without meat, but their diets will be lacking essential nutrients and proteins, which they will have to supplement by eating other things. But point is humans were not designed to be herbivores... we are omnivores, we eat and we digest both veg and meat... so why go against design? elephants are herbivores, their body and all its physiological processes are adapted to eating and processing veg, so its big and strong...

(bismillah)

(salam)

There are several non-meat sources of protein, fat, and iron. In fact, because of it high fat and cholesterol content, as werll as otehr health concerns, meat should not be our main source of protein/iron/whatever else. To be perfectly honest, within a year of being off meat, I was unable to digest beef. I getsick whenever I eat more than a pinch of meat per day, or if I keep that pinch per day up for mor than a week. Remember that chimps, which are one of the closest primates to humans, are completely vegitarian - and they are perfectly healthy. There is absolutely nothong wrong with giving up meat. I gave it up initially because of the taste. As time went on and I became aware of how unhealthy meat has become in the US and how sadistic and inhumane animal farms are here in the US, I decided to make a ilfestyle of it. It is only my poverty acombined with certain cultural expectations that has met eating that pinch of meat every so often. And I am beginning to work on the people around me to cut me some slack, too.

Don't dis us while we are ahead. :-)

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I did read it, it was interesting. The only thing is that I have seen this many times with my eyes, and the lamb starts kicking it's legs. Pretty sad sight. Its hard to believe that they don't feel any pain (according to the article you posted).

(bismillah)

(salam)

The kicking of the legs is a reflext that results from the disjointed nature of the electrical impulses in the animal's body. Much of the nervious circuitry has been cut off, and this affects the animal's motor funtions. I saw a terrible and miserable scene one day while driving around town with Gramma, and the animal was flopping about because of the damage to the brain and nervous system. Had the animal been reacting to the pain alone, she would only have slashed me, growled, and run away.

That occurred shortly after another traumatic experience. I nearly went insane.

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(salam)

Hey Zain, you're talking about the seeming contradiction between Muslims being allowed to eat meat/slaughter animals and still respect them, right?  I.e., if Muslims are supposed to respect animals, why aren't they also supposed to be vegetarians?

Yeah, kinda.

I understand what you mean that it would be difficult to grow substantial food in a desert, but than again the animals eat food grown from the ground. :unsure:

Allah the EXALTED knows whats best, and HE definitely wouldn't allow us to do something wrong, think about it, zainy.

I agree.

I wonder if they were/are any prominent shia scholars who were/are vegetarian? Any vegetarian Ayatollahs? :unsure:

Edited by Zain
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However, u try feedin an elephant meat and it wont survive for very long....it goes against its nature. Same way if you try and feed a lion veg and only veg, he'll be dying very quickly.....

Not quite true. I read somehwere that Animals can eat anything. However more energy so need more vegtables than meat.

For those of us that believe in evolution I think one of our key advantages was that we could eat anything. High protien foods...e.g bone marrow, meat etc...helped our brain development.

Has anybody eaten anything they have killed? I have done fishing once or twice, enjoy it a lot but don't quite feel comfartable eating it once you have seen it die a slightly agonising death.

Apparantly if the animal dies in pain the meat doesn't taste as good as the blood get locked in the flesh or something.

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