Christian interested in discussing messianic hope with Shi'i Muslims

[DerekhHikmah]

Hello everyone,

I am a Christian who spends a great deal of time studying the Bible and the prophetic and theological themes that run through scripture. Over the past several years I’ve also become very interested in Islamic thought, especially the philosophical and spiritual traditions within Shi‘i Islam. Much of that interest was sparked by reading the work of Henry Corbin and I have become fascinated with the rich intellectual and philosophical traditions preserved in Shi’ism.

There are a few convergences I would be deeply interested in discussing with someone, especially around the messianic hope and eschatology.

In the Biblical tradition, many of the prophets speak about a future restoration under the authority of the Messiah. Texts in Isaiah, Daniel, and other prophetic books describe a time when God’s sovereignty and justice will ultimately be established in the world. As a follower of Jesus, I believe him to be the Messiah spoken of in these prophecies, and the Christian Greek Scriptures present his kingship as something that unfolds within God’s larger plan for history.

When I began reading more about Shi‘i Islam, I was struck by how seriously the tradition also takes the idea that sacred history continues to unfold under divine guidance, particularly through the line of the Imams and the expectation of the Mahdi.

Because of that, I have many questions and would be very interested in discussing these themes with anyone who is genuinely interested. I am especially curious whether Shi‘i thinkers connect Qur’anic teachings with the broader idea of messianic hope found in earlier scriptures such as the Bible.

I’m not here to debate or criticize. I’m genuinely interested in learning how Shi‘i Muslims think about these themes and how they understand the relationship between prophecy, authority, and the culmination of sacred history.

If anyone here enjoys thoughtful discussion of scripture, theology, or philosophy, I would be very interested in hearing your perspective and learning more about how these ideas are understood in Shi‘i tradition.

Peace to everyone here.

[Abu Hassanain]

2 hours ago, DerekhHikmah said:

Hello everyone,

I am a Christian who spends a great deal of time studying the Bible and the prophetic and theological themes that run through scripture. Over the past several years I’ve also become very interested in Islamic thought, especially the philosophical and spiritual traditions within Shi‘i Islam. Much of that interest was sparked by reading the work of Henry Corbin and I have become fascinated with the rich intellectual and philosophical traditions preserved in Shi’ism.

There are a few convergences I would be deeply interested in discussing with someone, especially around the messianic hope and eschatology.

In the Biblical tradition, many of the prophets speak about a future restoration under the authority of the Messiah. Texts in Isaiah, Daniel, and other prophetic books describe a time when God’s sovereignty and justice will ultimately be established in the world. As a follower of Jesus, I believe him to be the Messiah spoken of in these prophecies, and the Christian Greek Scriptures present his kingship as something that unfolds within God’s larger plan for history.

When I began reading more about Shi‘i Islam, I was struck by how seriously the tradition also takes the idea that sacred history continues to unfold under divine guidance, particularly through the line of the Imams and the expectation of the Mahdi.

Because of that, I have many questions and would be very interested in discussing these themes with anyone who is genuinely interested. I am especially curious whether Shi‘i thinkers connect Qur’anic teachings with the broader idea of messianic hope found in earlier scriptures such as the Bible.

I’m not here to debate or criticize. I’m genuinely interested in learning how Shi‘i Muslims think about these themes and how they understand the relationship between prophecy, authority, and the culmination of sacred history.

If anyone here enjoys thoughtful discussion of scripture, theology, or philosophy, I would be very interested in hearing your perspective and learning more about how these ideas are understood in Shi‘i tradition.

Peace to everyone here.

salam

Shia clergyman here, please put forth questions or topics one at a time. i have a background in both general and speculative theology, mysticism, and a general study of phillosphy. i have an okay understanding of the bible, but am more versed in shia-sunni debates and eastern relgions. i am busy with the holy month and taking care of my family, not as i have time i can answer

@notme @Abu Hadi I KNOW CAME FROM PRATICING CHRISTIAN FAMILIES and backgrounds and may be able to relate better . 

wallahu alam 

[DerekhHikmah]

Thank you for responding, I appreciate you taking the time.

From what I understand, in Shi’i Islam there is an eschatological expectation surrounding the future return of the 12th Imam, Al-Mahdi. Is he understood as a continuation or culmination of the line of earlier prophets and the covenantal hopes associated with figures such as Abraham, Moses, and the prophets of Israel? I’m curious how Shi‘i theology connects the Mahdi to the broader line of sacred history and earlier prophetic hopes about the restoration of worship. Please correct me if I misunderstand anything, as I am not very familiar with the Qur’an.

I’m coming from a biblical background where there are strong expectations among the prophets about a future restoration associated with the Messiah. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Davidic psalms and prophets like Isaiah and Ezekiel describe this restoration in terms of kingship, justice, and governance over the nations.

Even after Jesus’ resurrection, the apostles still carried these expectations. In Acts (1:6–7), “They asked him: ‘Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?’ He said to them: ‘It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.”

So those who recognized Jesus as the Messiah were still thinking within a larger prophetic expectation of restoration. Is there a similar structure in Shi’i thought regarding the return of the Mahdi? And what expectations exist within the Qur’an and Islamic tradition regarding the conditions for future messianic restoration?

I hope that makes sense. Thanks again.

[Abu Hassanain]

52 minutes ago, DerekhHikmah said:

Thank you for responding, I appreciate you taking the time.

From what I understand, in Shi’i Islam there is an eschatological expectation surrounding the future return of the 12th Imam, Al-Mahdi. Is he understood as a continuation or culmination of the line of earlier prophets and the covenantal hopes associated with figures such as Abraham, Moses, and the prophets of Israel? I’m curious how Shi‘i theology connects the Mahdi to the broader line of sacred history and earlier prophetic hopes about the restoration of worship. Please correct me if I misunderstand anything, as I am not very familiar with the Qur’an.

I’m coming from a biblical background where there are strong expectations among the prophets about a future restoration associated with the Messiah. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Davidic psalms and prophets like Isaiah and Ezekiel describe this restoration in terms of kingship, justice, and governance over the nations.

Even after Jesus’ resurrection, the apostles still carried these expectations. In Acts (1:6–7), “They asked him: ‘Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?’ He said to them: ‘It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.”

So those who recognized Jesus as the Messiah were still thinking within a larger prophetic expectation of restoration. Is there a similar structure in Shi’i thought regarding the return of the Mahdi? And what expectations exist within the Qur’an and Islamic tradition regarding the conditions for future messianic restoration?

I hope that makes sense. Thanks again.

Salam

OK, I have more time after Friday. I saw this popped up while I was checking this at dinner break. Sometimes I do that if you have not tried pinto beans with tahini and olive oil I highly recommend it nutritious, low-fat high protein and filling.

So the holy Quran states beginning of what you’re saying in the following

And unto the children of Abraham, we gave the book the wisdom and the great kingdom
 

So Abraham’s children from Isaac with the prophets from Israel they were given in the psalms they were given the profits, and they were given the kingdom of David and Solomon

Of Abraham through Ishmael, or given the Quran, the 14 infallible and the rank of immamate in the kingdom of the appearance and the kingdom of the return

Which we have in narrations that say in our is the kingdom of return about these verses

The whole point of creation, the whole point of sending all the profits and infallible was to bring the Mahdi as when each of the previous infallible got murdered their spirit was transferred to the next successor. Their body was buried in there self remains as the Lord pleases that spirit is 14 parts of the same entity, and when the last luminary walks the Earth again he’ll be 14 parts of the complete light of Muhammad made flesh.

For us, this is in the beginning of the word was with God and the word was good then the word became flesh

I know the translation is probably different than what you’re used to. I’m looking at some of the older translations and obviously I’m gonna notice this ahead of time. We don’t believe that the Christian or Jewish scriptures mentioned in the Quran as you would call them or what you have in your hands today we believe all the previous 104 bucks that were sent to different religious communities were distorted, except the Quran.

So the purpose of the last Lumina coming is to restore religion to its perfect form to establish the laws of God to eliminate disbelief and to establish faith until he himself dies a martyr then they would all return in each of them would rule for a long period of time in different narrations so the last one rules again, and when he dies a natural death, this time, his self would bury his body, and his spirit would return to the 14 as one entity of divine light on the divine throne, then within one hour to 40 days, the day of judgment would be established

The whole purpose of creation is to reach perfection under him. It seems the one who fills the verse when truth comes in false perishes for all things false are bound to perish anyway.

Because that didn’t happen for any of the other profits are infallible even the holy prophet, peace, and blessings we still see faucet, but he would eliminate false in his first kingdom till it would emerge as disbeliever and hypocrites emerge from the lines of believers, then in the second series of kingdoms, it would totally be eliminated because Satan would die for the second time just as every person gives two life to death

As in the Quran, it says twice because you live twice, did we call you to die

More things, but after I eat, I have to go back to continue service services. These nights are long and full of prayers to quote my little sister’s favorite show in my own way that that one where they were fighting dragons with the guy anyway.

For further details, please look at these books. They’re all available in English. Ocean of light volume 5152 and 53. Called Bihar Anwar 

The shooting star called Najamus Thaqib 

And the noble characteristics called Mikayl Makarim 

These would give you a deeper understanding of our view of the Mahdi as what would happen before during an after the need for his kingdom in our reasoning on his status

wallahu Alam I just wanna argue

[Eddie Mecca]

3 hours ago, DerekhHikmah said:

in Shi’i Islam there is an eschatological expectation surrounding the future return of the 12th Imam, Al-Mahdi. Is he understood as a continuation or culmination of the line of earlier prophets and the covenantal hopes associated with figures such as Abraham, Moses, and the prophets of Israel?

1.) There's an extreme emphasis within Shi'ism placed on Imam al-Mahdi's (peace be upon him) return and his mission to establish God's kingdom on Earth alongside the Messiah (i.e. Jesus, son of Mary).

2.) Since the time of Ismael (peace be upon him), the Arabs had been receiving a periodic stream of minor prophets (e.g. Hud, Saleh, Shu'ayb etc.)... Like other Semitic groups, the Arabs fell in and out of proper Abrahamic monotheism over or during the course of centuries... They (i.e. Arabs) were in a state of waywardness prior to the advent of Muhammad (peace be upon him)... We (i.e. Muslims) believe the prophetic authority was taken away from the Children of Israel after their collusion with the Romans and regarding their diabolical plot to kill both John The Baptist and Jesus (peace be upon them)... God (i.e. Allah) had given them chance after chance to amend their ways and their behavior over the course of millennia... All to no avail... The assassination of John and the attempted assassination of Jesus was the final straw that broke the proverbial camel's back... We (i.e. Muslims) believe that the stone (i.e. Ishmaelites) that was scorned, mocked, rejected and ridiculed by the builder (i.e. Israelites)... has become the honoured cornerstone (parable described in Matthew 21:42-45)

[Eddie Mecca]

Signs of the Appearance of the Mahdi Wikipedia page... Good place to start

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signs_of_the_appearance_of_the_Mahdi

Edited March 10 by Eddie Mecca
Adding

[DerekhHikmah]

Salam,
And this is great, there is so much in your last response that I appreciate and that I did not know before. And thanks for the food recommendation, I have not tried tahini so I will give that a try.
So I looked up your quote in Qur’an 4:54, and this is very interesting. This is all new to me. In the biblical tradition the promise of the kingdom under the Messiah is tied to the covenant with David and the coming Messiah from that line. It seems from this verse there is recognition of the kingship of the earlier times of covenantal Israel, if I understand this correctly.
“Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But We had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.” Qur’an 4:54.
In Samuel, David is promised a covenant of kingship in his lineage:
“When your days come to an end and you are laid to rest with your forefathers, then I will raise up your offspring after you, your own son, and I will firmly establish his kingdom.” 2 Samuel 7:12.
Now the interesting thing is that it continues to speak of that kingship covenant as eternal:
“Your house and your kingdom will be secure forever before you; your throne will be firmly established forever.” 2 Samuel 7:16.
In later scripture, both in the prophets like Daniel and in Luke’s gospel, the kingdom is associated with the Messiah. Is there a relationship or any commentary on the relationship between that Davidic kingship and the role of the Mahdi? Or was the kingdom mentioned above strictly understood as referring to ancient Israel before its exile to Babylon?
Next I want to address the primordial light and the reference to John 1. This is very interesting and close to me here. First off, I DO NOT believe in a trinity or that Jesus is somehow co-equal with God. I respect strict tawhid, and that is not what John was saying anyway, and you seem familiar with that verse already. However, John was talking about Jesus there, as he had been with him closely.
I am interested in this understanding of the “light,” though in relation to the logos, 'word'. You see that as the 14 infallibles sharing one light. So is this a primordial light across all sacred history, from Seth and Enoch all the way through the prophets and the Imams? As though all history is refracted through this light? Or is this strictly from the Prophet Muhammad and the Imams culminating in the return of Al-Mahdi?
I am wondering because the whole Hebrew canon, as I understand it, is pointing toward the Messiah in the figure who appeared as Jesus, and the earlier prophets are like partial reflections of that light that reveal aspects of the Messiah. If that makes sense, how is the continuity and unity through all human history seen in Shi‘i theology?
This is where my study through Henry Corbin, not sure if you are familiar, resonated with me. I understand Biblical scripture as portraying Christ’s kingdom in multiple places (Daniel, Revelation, and elsewhere) as beginning in heaven, and his presence marking the end of the age. His guidance is both visible and invisible through this time, and this strikes me as a possible convergence. I suppose the light you are describing culminates in Al-Mahdi, toward which all creation is moving. Is that correct? And is reaching perfection tied to the guidance through this light during occultation? Am I understanding that correctly?
And if I follow with your references, yes, the world does reflect a deep spiritual sign of the end times in its violence, lawlessness, and wickedness. I would totally agree.
Also you mentioned two phases of the Mahdi’s kingdom and also two deaths. I am not quite following that part. Could you explain what you mean there?
Also thank you to Eddie Mecca for the additional explanation about the Mahdi and the shift of prophetic authority. I want to come back to that and think on it a little more, because there are some deep points there as well that I would like to explore. The question of prophetic authority and how different traditions understand that transition is very interesting, and I would like to think on this more before responding in detail.
Thanks again, this is very interesting. Salam!

[The Green Knight]

9 hours ago, DerekhHikmah said:

So those who recognized Jesus as the Messiah were still thinking within a larger prophetic expectation of restoration. Is there a similar structure in Shi’i thought regarding the return of the Mahdi? And what expectations exist within the Qur’an and Islamic tradition regarding the conditions for future messianic restoration?

I hope that makes sense. Thanks again.

Peace to you and welcome.

To make things clearer, both Jesus and Mahdi will appear and work together as same team. Their followers will come from different faiths and beliefs, definitely all good souls in the human race. Mahdi like Jesus is from the lineage of Abraham. God has promised the kingdom to them as the learned brother Abu Hassanain ("father of two Hassans") wrote above.

"And unto the children of Abraham, we gave the book the wisdom and the great kingdom" - Quran. Something similar is written in the Bible right? The Shia are supposed to possess some 17000 saying on the reappearance, second coming, and what comes next. Honestly I haven't read all of them and I doubt anyone here has but I can try to describe it anyway. The second coming / reappearance of Mahdi will "fill the world with justice when it will be filled with injustice/excesses" "so much so that a newly wed bride will have no fear to travel alone through a forest at night" "there will be so much abundance that gold will be found at the side of roads and none will claim it" "people will search for the poor to give them charity in order to please God but will not find people to give charity to". So this should give you the picture. What more? Well there is lots more. Another thing that stands out is that there will be a display of Judgement day a sort of a mini judgement day i can call it perhaps, and its point will be to let people witness and taste God's justice here on this earth in the image of the big thing that has to come. Many notorious criminals and the wronged their victims will be resurrected by God's Will, they will be given trials and sentences will be handed out and rewarded. It will also settle some important conflicts and debates the people have had and will then know for certain as the questions about those figures will be settled with that. More importantly, people will know for certain that they were told the truth, that Judgement and resurrection is very real. And the nature of justice will be revealed, that it is the finest and perfectly straight edge that only traverses the truth in any matter and while the criminal fears it, it often does not taste like what the complainant expected it to as evident in the history of our species. Anyway there will be a lot of things and this kingdom of heaven will span the whole world and will go on for a long and untold amount of time but it will end.

Edited March 10 by The Green Knight

[Abu Hassanain]

Salam

These are the links to the most important books about the issue of Imam Mahdi as that have been translated to English

Now as to the one website if somebody cries the Akhbari are Imamiyah Shia and our brothers if they follow a slightly different methodology of jurisprudence, that is fine. The main point is they have translated a lot of useful books. The translations of themselves are not bad just some of the articles you have to be careful. The translated books are fine.

wallahu Alam 

https://shiapdfresources.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bihar-al-anwar-vol-51-52-53-the-promised-mahdi-english-translation-part-1.pdf

https://hubeali.com/online-books/online-english-books/bihar-al-anwaar/
 

see vol 51 52 53 here as well 

https://al-islam.org/mikyal-al-makarim-fi-fawaid-al-dua-lil-qaim-vol-1-sayyid-muhammad-taqi-musawi-isfahani
 

https://al-islam.org/mikyal-al-makarim-fi-fawaid-al-dua-lil-qaim-vol-2-sayyid-muhammad-taqi-musawi-isfahani
 

https://archive.org/details/the-shooting-star-an-najmus-saqib-ahwaal-e-imammul-ghaaeb-s-athar-hussain-rizvi

 

https://al-islam.org/life-imam-al-mahdi-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi
 

https://www.amazon.com/Asr-Zahoor-Description-related-Humanity/dp/B0DJK4ZRQK
 

This one is one of the other most important boxes. It’s only available online for free and Urdu, but I want everybody to know it’s available so I put it up here.

[Abu Hassanain]

Salam

it should be noted in our school of thought that Imam Mahdi as is the Lord the master the deliver the guide, the anointed one the upriser and the messiah 

There’s a certain speaker of Lebanese background and his supporters who spread these kind of ideas about a sharing of power about an even split about a ruler in the east, and the west, based on either narrations that are weak narrations that are unlinked or not necessarily from our books, I’m the first one to take an obscure narration if it’s reliable a lot of these narrations aren’t I have nothing against that. He does a lot of work for the youth both here in Lebanon, but if I had a chance to sit down with him and discuss these things I would because it’s not in line with what the senior scholars and the seminaries in iraq in Iran teach. 
 

Imam Mahdi as we be the absolute ruler of everything Jesus peace be upon him and the other 123,999 profits the return during his first kingdom will be there to aid assist serve and be under his authority

He is the perfection of the 14 made flash some of the scholars indicate that the verses in chapter Joseph about the sun, the moon and 11 stars, bowing Joseph indicate without direct meaning because of the maliciousness of the brother, but that indicates that the holy prophet Lady Fatima in the 11 previous aimmah would submit to the authority of Imam Mahdi as during his kingdom

So far Office, as much as it may hurt our Christian brother there’s nothing to be ashamed of Imam Mahdi as is it a higher rank of infallibility than all the previous infallible and profits he is second and rank after the holy prophet or third, according to some sources, some sources put Lady Fati the second in ranked because of certain narrations

So Imam Mahdi as is the deliver the hope and the Messiah of the 124,000 profits and 13 other infallible as long as well as all of humanity

When he first comes by himself, he would be 14 parts of the divine entity or spirit of the light of Muhammad made flesh. The other lights would emerge from him, and they would follow his authority just as a son the moon and the stars follow Joseph in his dream. 
 

The 14 are not separate rubber bear like a prism of light divided into 14 parts at different places and times at the event of the blanket there were five parts of the light in five different places, but the highest most glorified and most perfect perfected light that the holy Quran says

Light upon light

In God’s desires to protect his light

refers to Imam Mahdi as 

Wallahu Alam 

[Abu Hassanain]

Salam

it should be noted in our school of thought that Imam Mahdi as is the Lord the master the deliver the guide, the anointed one the upriser and the messiah 

There’s a certain speaker of Lebanese background and his supporters who spread these kind of ideas about a sharing of power about an even split about a ruler in the east, and the west, based on either narrations that are weak narrations that are unlinked or not necessarily from our books, I’m the first one to take an obscure narration if it’s reliable a lot of these narrations aren’t I have nothing against that. He does a lot of work for the youth both here in Lebanon, but if I had a chance to sit down with him and discuss these things I would because it’s not in line with what the senior scholars and the seminaries in iraq in Iran teach. 
 

Imam Mahdi as we be the absolute ruler of everything Jesus peace be upon him and the other 123,999 profits the return during his first kingdom will be there to aid assist serve and be under his authority

He is the perfection of the 14 made flash some of the scholars indicate that the verses in chapter Joseph about the sun, the moon and 11 stars, bowing Joseph indicate without direct meaning because of the maliciousness of the brother, but that indicates that the holy prophet Lady Fatima in the 11 previous aimmah would submit to the authority of Imam Mahdi as during his kingdom

So far Office, as much as it may hurt our Christian brother there’s nothing to be ashamed of Imam Mahdi as is it a higher rank of infallibility than all the previous infallible and profits he is second and rank after the holy prophet or third, according to some sources, some sources put Lady Fati the second in ranked because of certain narrations

So Imam Mahdi as is the deliver the hope and the Messiah of the 124,000 profits and 13 other infallible as long as well as all of humanity

When he first comes by himself, he would be 14 parts of the divine entity or spirit of the light of Muhammad made flesh. The other lights would emerge from him, and they would follow his authority just as a son the moon and the stars follow Joseph in his dream. 
 

The 14 are not separate rubber bear like a prism of light divided into 14 parts at different places and times at the event of the blanket there were five parts of the light in five different places, but the highest most glorified and most perfect perfected light that the holy Quran says

Light upon light

In God’s desires to protect his light

refers to Imam Mahdi as 

Wallahu Alam 

[ServantOfMahdi]

 

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbYqZ6SLOGJHg_3LMUBxPFCp0i3hUBl27&si=KH2iyq0EWYY2pwTk

 

[Eddie Mecca]

14 hours ago, Abu Hassanain said:

the messiah

Imam Mahdi is not the Messiah... This contradicts the Qur'an... Jesus is the Messiah... Also, transmigration of souls from one Imam to the next is heterodox doctrine for Twelver Shi'ism... You're espousing a strange, strange doctrine for a Shi'i "clergyman"...

[Eddie Mecca]

On 3/9/2026 at 9:00 PM, Abu Hassanain said:

Muhammad made flesh.

For us, this is in the beginning of the word was with God and the word was good then the word became flesh

Now you sound like a Trinitarian

[Abu Hassanain]

3 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Imam Mahdi is not the Messiah... This contradicts the Qur'an... Jesus is the Messiah... Also, transmigration of souls from one Imam to the next is heterodox doctrine for Twelver Shi'ism... You're espousing a strange, strange doctrine for a Shi'i "clergyman"...

Salam

I don’t have time to argue for the sake of arguing

Isa as is called masih in Quran at that time for bani Israel , however Imam Mahdi as is Masih in ultimate sense . You’re exposing a doctrine interview on the Messiah that mostly comes from our opponents in their books. Do you think Isa as kills dajjal sufayni and Shaytan too ? Because that is also the view of our opponents.
 

transmigration of souls is a completely different view and it’s mostly from a few small tribes that published like the book of ghosts, etc.

There’s nothing wrong with looking for justice but school of the thrology The one must go deeper.

ruh is spirt nafs is soul 

To completely different things

The bodies of the 14 are buried but completely preserves, they don’t care as per narrations or school of thought

It’s mentioned that once Imam Sajjad as was walking with Imam Baqir as in all of a sudden, the old became small and the younger became big in terms of age

once salaman Ra asked the holy prophet, peace, and blessing upon him what is meant by you and Ali are the same or each each other soul and self

He nodded to Ali as all of a sudden he was gone, they said, where did he go? The holy prophet, peace, and blessing upon him, pulled his skin and removed a chunk of his skin and in flesh and there was Imam Ali as sitting inside the rib of the holy prophet piece of blessings be upon him

once imam Sadiq as was asked what it means that those were laying in the way of God are not dead? He pulled back the veil and suddenly sitting there was his grandfather Imam Sajjad as 

There’s an narration in either 40 narrations or etiquette of prayers that says

Before the creation of the pen, the book archangels the Angels, the heavens, near the men in the gin. We were there on the green shadow of our Lord.

There’s another narration, we were lights around the throne of our Lord, doing his worship

They’re in several different tasfir the commentary in those and high or those raised and thrones indicates the primordial bodies of the 14th. They were raised over the tree. The reason atom was forbidden to eat from the tree of many fruits that had an apple like fruit with weed in it was because that was the tree that their bodies were raised over.

The divine entity that comes from the presence and is the veil over the essence of God and the closest thing to the presence of God and the closest thing from the presence of God human beings can understand is the light of Muhammad
 

kun is B instantly Fia indicates delay that means the Lord out of his divine mercy use the mechanism to do it that refers to the 14

That’s why we have numerous narrations in our books and the books of some of our opponents, including the Sufi they mention through the light of Muhammad. God created all things.

What was the voice that the male prophets heard whose voice did Moses peace be upon him here in the fire The Voice of the Commander of the faithful?

Whose voice did Mary mother of Moses here and Mary mother of Jesus here Lady Fatima, and peace on her

There’s also less common view that the daughters of Ali as and Hussayn as here couldn’t be seen, all the people saw was light in the voices that terrified them, and why they were so amazed that their speeches because they heard the voice of the holy prophet, the commander of the faithful and the Lord of the martyrs, not the voices of those women

On the night journey, the Lord has no hand. The Lord is not limited to one place. It was one manifestation of the light of Muhammad, talking to another manifestation of the light of Muhammad by command of the Lord.

imam as Sadiq as we are the near  ones to our Lord

They are the closest thing to the divine presence. They’re from the divine presence and they were sent to us to teach us.

That’s a little background so what I’m really talking about what I’m talking about the spirit and the holy prophet peace and blessings upon them died you’d be familiar with the narration of the commander of the faithful peace upon him when he was holding him in his lap, his chest opened 1000 gates opened, each opened 1000 more gates. This refers to the transfer of the spirit not the soul not the flesh soul is alive and walking around wherever the Lord wills body is preserved in the ground spirit is something else.

So with each of the 14 when they get maytredtheir spirit goes into the next one so that when the last luminary rises in his first kingdom, he is 14 of 14 parts of the complete spirt made flesh

So generally, how this is explained as if you take a prism. It divides light into parts, but it’s the same light.

That’s the meaning in the narration when it talks about the Lord divided the light from the light came me and Ali as and he further divided into Fatima, and from our light he made in drought the light of the imams as etc. that’s what those narrations are explaining

suffer for example of the event of the cloak you have the light of Muhammad is in five places a place called Muhammad a place called Ali a place called Fatima a place called Hassan and a place called Hussein the light is divided into five places, but it’s one manifestation

thats one reason why imam Muhammad Al baqir as said if you want to quote something from us and you don’t remember which one of us said it take any of our names we all say the same thing

That’s another reason the commander of the faithful said one narration Muhammad, and another narration Eye, and another narration with the people of the house were the first intellect that when the Lord commanded it to step forward, we step forward and when he commanded it to step back, we stepped back

Why do you think they’re the narrations from the commander of the faithful? I was with every prophet secretly in Muhammad openly
 

Why there are some discussions in Quran commentary that was the command of the faithful in his pre-Zahur form they brought the throne to prophet Solomon peace be upon him that it was actually him not Khidr as who met Moses peace upon him in the desert etc those are extension discussions based on those narrations

Trans. Migrations of souls generally. In the Ghulaw which are mainly small, tribal groups is the belief of the reincarnation that all the profits all the 14 are the same person in the sense they are a person that they have the same memories which some of them were present at the same time more commonly, it’s the belief that the souls of the believers are born again and again, so they have perfect waliyah It’s very different than what I’m talking about.

bashir muthaluna and I’m trying to type this with a finger so it’s difficult. My phone doesn’t always like to cooperate with Arabic generally many of the scouters believe this is similar to human not a human so the prophet is something similar to us. He’s not the same as us.

That’s why you have the whole discussion on whether they have private parts or not if they do something can’t come out that comes out for us because they’ve been completely purified in both Khabath and hadath , the whole discussion on their means of reproduction being different that they don’t need to breast-feed, but they would never soil themselves or such things etc This is a discussion of the higher level of theology. It still goes on among many of the scholars many of the scholars moved away from this type of view. Many haven’t especially those were more narration based because we have the narration whatever the profit eats, it comes out not as impurity, but is like OK. It basically says if he eat like an apple, it would fall out of the back of his skin looking like an apple just with the nutrition taking out the Earth would consume it. it leaves a fragrance so beautiful people try to smell it for three days. 

I’m sure there are many narrations. You never saw in your life and therefore’s ridiculous that you would say these are not the views of the Shia  clergy unless you saw all our narrations and all the opinions and all the different opinions and theologies, which I have seen many narrations many books and many views, but I surely have not seen them all as they are are very wide ranging, thus this is a silly thing to say

Look at Khutba bayniah the commander of the faithful peace upon explains his level, but then he says, but all praise me to the Lord of the world time, but his servant and his slave

imam Sadiq as say whatever you want of us if you can exhaust our merits, but say we are the servant of our Lord

imam Muhammad Al baqir as said we are the Lord’s and Allah is the Lord of the worlds

These narrations are not extreme or from our opponents. These are all found in our own books.

May all benefit from the teachings of Muhammad and his pure  righteous progeny peace be upon them all

wallahu Alam 

 

 

Edited March 11 by Abu Hassanain
Rephrasing things for the best sticking to the point

[Abu Hassanain]

Salam

This is an important topic. I hope the original poster comes back and reads.what people have kindly took their time to post.

wallahu Alam 

Edited March 11 by Abu Hassanain
Edit

[DerekhHikmah]

Hey I did come back and respond, it is still waiting for a moderator to approve. But I have even more questions now.

[Abu Hassanain]

7 hours ago, DerekhHikmah said:

Hey I did come back and respond, it is still waiting for a moderator to approve. But I have even more questions now.

Salam

you may I get a lot of answers Thursday or Friday with the grand night, but most people will be on Saturday when they have time

I think it’s once you get to 25 or 50 posts if you’re not in moderation for breaking rules, your posts will go right through. If you remember you can ask somebody from the membership team how that works

wallahu Alam 

[DerekhHikmah]

Salam,
Thank you for all the information, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain some of this I am trying my best to follow here.
I wanted to come back to the original point I was asking about, because I am trying to understand the structure of sacred history in your Shi‘i theology.
In the biblical tradition the promise of the future kingdom is tied to the covenant with King David of Israel. For example:
“When your days come to an end and you are laid to rest with your forefathers, I will raise up your offspring after you… and I will firmly establish his kingdom.” (2 Samuel 7:12)
And later:
“Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.” (2 Samuel 7:16)
Now in my earlier post which did not come through, I was drawing upon a reference you made that I went and looked up. You mentioned Qur’an 4:54, and this is very interesting to me. It says:
“Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But We had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.” (Qur’an 4:54)
I wanted to understand how you view the legitimacy of the kingdom and kingship in ancient Israel, such as David and Solomon and the others. Because David’s kingship had a covenant attached to it, and this thread runs through history from David, through the exile to Babylon, and then into a future restoration of the kingship beginning in heaven. This appears in Daniel, Ezekiel, Luke’s gospel, Revelation, and other places.
From my understanding, Jesus appeared first as the Messiah in a humble role, but the scriptures also describe his future return as a king who establishes the kingdom of God. So the expectation of restoration continues after his first appearance.
So my question is really about how Shi‘i theology understands that same long arc of sacred history.
Is the role of Imam Mahdi understood as the culmination of those earlier prophetic hopes connected with Abraham and the expectation of the Messiah who would become a blessing to all nations?
I was also interested in the idea you mentioned about the primordial light. In your explanation the fourteen infallibles share one light which culminates in Imam Mahdi. Is that light understood as something that runs through the whole history of prophecy, or specifically through the Prophet Muhammad and the line of the Imams?
From my perspective, the Hebrew prophets and their prophetic messages can be seen almost like partial reflections pointing toward the Messiah who appeared in the figure of Jesus, who is spoken of in John as the logos “word.”. So I am curious how Shi‘i theology understands the unity of divine guidance across all of sacred history. I know it was mentioned before that guidance and authority shifted away from the Jews, but what exactly is the role of Jesus and the purpose of what Messiah really is? I am not sure I understand that.
Thank you again for the discussion. I am learning a lot from hearing how your tradition understands these things.
Salam.
 

[Eddie Mecca]

@DerekhHikmah, Salaam bro... I'm sure you'll find this interesting... Blogging Theology - Paul Williams and Dr. Ali Ataie - Isaiah 53, James and Paul - approximately 2 hours 

[Abu Hassanain]

2 hours ago, DerekhHikmah said:

Salam,
Thank you for all the information, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain some of this I am trying my best to follow here.
I wanted to come back to the original point I was asking about, because I am trying to understand the structure of sacred history in your Shi‘i theology.
In the biblical tradition the promise of the future kingdom is tied to the covenant with King David of Israel. For example:
“When your days come to an end and you are laid to rest with your forefathers, I will raise up your offspring after you… and I will firmly establish his kingdom.” (2 Samuel 7:12)
And later:
“Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.” (2 Samuel 7:16)
Now in my earlier post which did not come through, I was drawing upon a reference you made that I went and looked up. You mentioned Qur’an 4:54, and this is very interesting to me. It says:
“Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But We had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.” (Qur’an 4:54)
I wanted to understand how you view the legitimacy of the kingdom and kingship in ancient Israel, such as David and Solomon and the others. Because David’s kingship had a covenant attached to it, and this thread runs through history from David, through the exile to Babylon, and then into a future restoration of the kingship beginning in heaven. This appears in Daniel, Ezekiel, Luke’s gospel, Revelation, and other places.
From my understanding, Jesus appeared first as the Messiah in a humble role, but the scriptures also describe his future return as a king who establishes the kingdom of God. So the expectation of restoration continues after his first appearance.
So my question is really about how Shi‘i theology understands that same long arc of sacred history.
Is the role of Imam Mahdi understood as the culmination of those earlier prophetic hopes connected with Abraham and the expectation of the Messiah who would become a blessing to all nations?
I was also interested in the idea you mentioned about the primordial light. In your explanation the fourteen infallibles share one light which culminates in Imam Mahdi. Is that light understood as something that runs through the whole history of prophecy, or specifically through the Prophet Muhammad and the line of the Imams?
From my perspective, the Hebrew prophets and their prophetic messages can be seen almost like partial reflections pointing toward the Messiah who appeared in the figure of Jesus, who is spoken of in John as the logos “word.”. So I am curious how Shi‘i theology understands the unity of divine guidance across all of sacred history. I know it was mentioned before that guidance and authority shifted away from the Jews, but what exactly is the role of Jesus and the purpose of what Messiah really is? I am not sure I understand that.
Thank you again for the discussion. I am learning a lot from hearing how your tradition understands these things.
Salam.
 

Salam

Frost would believe all the previous scriptures were corrupted, and in general, we don’t give much importance to them, except when discussing with people of other faiths. 
 

So what we believe in prophet, David and prophet Solomon peace upon them we have a completely different understanding of them than what is in the Old Testament that has reached the Jews and Christian today . 
 

We believe all the previous prophets to have been infallible and incapable of doing wrong actions. They are capable of doing mandatory recommended general or disliked actions, but not prohibited.Is the holy profit in his family being the 14 are capable of only doing mandatory and recommended. 
 

This clashes with the Jewish narrative of the behavior of the prophets found in the current Old Testament and lost the need for the mainline Protestant doctrine of progressive revelation or over a savior to specifically save people due to their sins 

Frost Jesus, peacefully upon him, came to be the Messiah or the one who delivers the Jews back to true Islam during his time, and he would return as a helper in an aid to the ultimate Savior and ultimate deliver Imam Mahdi as 

both Sunni and Shia narrations say he would step aside and insist that Imam Mahdi as lead the prayers . 
 

however the Sunni have give Jesus peace be upon him much more of a role the killer of Dajjal, coruler with Imam Mahdi as , ruler of west, coming down at asqa or Damascus etc 

for Shia the third most important Masjid and the Masjid most of our commentators attributed the night joinery too is Kufa . 
 

narrations also indicate all 123, 999 prophets would come to help Imam Mahdi as at both his first kingdom and the kingdom of return

This reflects the fulfillment of the secondary meaning of the dream of prophet Joseph in chapter 12 of Quran when he saw this on the moon, and the stars bowed him the holy prophet lady Fatman 12 previous leaders would pray behind you and follow the authoritie of Imam MAhdi as 

Frost is the fulfillment of the verse when truth comes and false perishes for all things false perish anyway found in chapter 17 of the holy Quran
 

he would kill satan in front of masjid sahla in Kufa Iraq , so us he’s the main one eliminating evil and establishing justice, and this is not the primary role of prophet. Jesus peace up upon him the primary role of prophet. Jesus, peace up upon him is just to return and to help imam Mahdi as and to show the Jews that they did not have bump her hand nor did they kill him filling the versa chapter 4 they killed him not nor crucified. Most of our historians are of their opinion. It was Judas was crucified.

It was made to appear. It’s also debated whether it was a miracle which is become the weak of view among our scholars, and the majority say that the situation was made to appear.

In the kingdom of returned, the holy prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, would kill Satan for the second time with the sphere of thus fulfilling the verse twice we always used to live twice because you to die 

Frost another important reason for the return of prophet. Jesus, peace item is to follow the tradition to marry have children and die natural death. He would also return in the king of return and be murdered, fighting against the enemies of Satan.

Because everyone would die a murder or die a natural death in one of those two lives according to the majority of speculative theologian’s currently alive in teaching in Iran today

Some scholars of their opinion in the prophet Jesus, peace bottom would marry the holy lady Fatima, the infallible of Qum daughter of Imam Khadhim as 

So the point of the previous kingdoms the point of the previous profits and the point of everything commentating in the kingdom of Emma Marty is the show that God has the power, truth, trance, or false, and despite the weakness of the hypocrites and the enemies, they would not derail God plan . 
 

There’s an I’m scared, reliable narration that states that David peace and prayed oh God, give me a kingdom for life of which no one has had the sake of Muhammad Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussein

It’s mentioned in essence of life and ocean of light two books of narrations of the prayers we have today is the prayer the when Adam committed his disliked action at a sin but a disliked action that he prayed certain words for forgiveness with those were the five prayers and that he sought forgiveness by the names of the main five Muhammad, Ali Fatima, Hassan and Hussain

A major reason in Christianity believes in progressive revelation, and the need for more and more perfect profit since I got himself comes in flesh is because of the doctrine of original sin we don’t hold such a doctrine and surprisingly to a lot of people the Jews lack such a belief in doctrine as well

Frost the word, perfect man or perfection made flesh refers to Imam Mahdi as 

The 12 prince of Ishmael referred to the 12 Imams 

Emmanuel also refers to Imam Mahdi as 

To help further into some of these topics, take a look at some of the books that posted links to for you. These are our primary sources.

Ask anything you want for further clarifications or further questions

wallahu Alam 

 

[ServantOfMahdi]

7 hours ago, DerekhHikmah said:

Salam,
Thank you for all the information, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain some of this I am trying my best to follow here.
I wanted to come back to the original point I was asking about, because I am trying to understand the structure of sacred history in your Shi‘i theology.
In the biblical tradition the promise of the future kingdom is tied to the covenant with King David of Israel. For example:
“When your days come to an end and you are laid to rest with your forefathers, I will raise up your offspring after you… and I will firmly establish his kingdom.” (2 Samuel 7:12)
And later:
“Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.” (2 Samuel 7:16)
Now in my earlier post which did not come through, I was drawing upon a reference you made that I went and looked up. You mentioned Qur’an 4:54, and this is very interesting to me. It says:
“Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But We had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.” (Qur’an 4:54)
I wanted to understand how you view the legitimacy of the kingdom and kingship in ancient Israel, such as David and Solomon and the others. Because David’s kingship had a covenant attached to it, and this thread runs through history from David, through the exile to Babylon, and then into a future restoration of the kingship beginning in heaven. This appears in Daniel, Ezekiel, Luke’s gospel, Revelation, and other places.
From my understanding, Jesus appeared first as the Messiah in a humble role, but the scriptures also describe his future return as a king who establishes the kingdom of God. So the expectation of restoration continues after his first appearance.
So my question is really about how Shi‘i theology understands that same long arc of sacred history.
Is the role of Imam Mahdi understood as the culmination of those earlier prophetic hopes connected with Abraham and the expectation of the Messiah who would become a blessing to all nations?
I was also interested in the idea you mentioned about the primordial light. In your explanation the fourteen infallibles share one light which culminates in Imam Mahdi. Is that light understood as something that runs through the whole history of prophecy, or specifically through the Prophet Muhammad and the line of the Imams?
From my perspective, the Hebrew prophets and their prophetic messages can be seen almost like partial reflections pointing toward the Messiah who appeared in the figure of Jesus, who is spoken of in John as the logos “word.”. So I am curious how Shi‘i theology understands the unity of divine guidance across all of sacred history. I know it was mentioned before that guidance and authority shifted away from the Jews, but what exactly is the role of Jesus and the purpose of what Messiah really is? I am not sure I understand that.
Thank you again for the discussion. I am learning a lot from hearing how your tradition understands these things.
Salam.
 

Salam

 

[DerekhHikmah]

On 3/12/2026 at 2:12 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Salaam bro... I'm sure you'll find this interesting... Blogging Theology - Paul Williams and Dr. Ali Ataie - Isaiah 53, James and Paul - approximately 2 hours 

@Eddie Mecca thank you so much for sharing that video, this gives me a lot of insight here. Dr. Ali Ataie is very sharp and well-read, and he raises several good points and some objections to 'orthodox' Christian interpretations, and I agree with a lot of his points.

Just to be clear too, one of the major objections to common Christian interpretations is the idea that God literally became a man. On this point I totally agree, I am NOT a Trinitarian. The idea that God could become a human being conflicts with the clear biblical teaching of God’s oneness, Deuteronomy 6:4. In Islamic terms this would violate tawhid, and I do not see any justification for Trinitarian metaphysics in the Bible. It is a later theological development, and in my opinion a departure from the original teaching.

Now, turning back to the text in Isaiah, in chapters 40-55 the identity of the 'servant' shifts several times. Sometimes the servant refers to Israel collectively: "You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." Isaiah 49:3

So the servant imagery operates on multiple levels, like they mentioned Hebrew prophetic poetry often works this way. The servant could refer at different times to Israel, to a faithful remnant, or to a righteous prophetic figure. Later prophets such as Jeremiah experienced rejection and persecution that resemble aspects of the 'suffering servant.'

If we look closely at Isaiah 52:13–53:12, the passage also contains a shift in speakers. It begins with God speaking: "My servant shall act wisely…"

But in chapter 53 a group of observers appears: "Who has believed our report?" "Surely our griefs he carried..." "We considered him stricken by God."

These speakers seem to be people who once misunderstood the servant. They believed he was cursed by God but later realize they were mistaken. This reversal could reflect how the nations once interpreted Israel’s suffering in exile, or how a true prophet such as Jeremiah was rejected by those he was sent to.

However, the text also introduces an interesting tension. Isaiah 53:8 says the servant was cut off "for the transgression of my people." In Isaiah, "my people" normally refers to Israel, since they were under covenant at that time. This suggests the servant is somehow distinct from the people.

Another interesting phrase appears in Isaiah 53:10:

"If his soul makes an asham (guilt offering)..."

The word asham is the same word used in the Torah for a specific sacrifice prescribed for temple worship. For example, "he is to bring to Jehovah a sound ram from the flock as a guilt offering;" Leviticus 5:15

"This is the law of the guilt offering (asham); it is most holy." Leviticus 7:1

So the sacrificial framework already exists in the Torah, and that was the structure of worship within which Isaiah was writing. I agree with Dr. Ataie that Isaiah 53 alone does not create a theology of atonement, but the concept of sacrifice and atonement is already clearly established earlier in the Torah: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood… it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11

At the same time, and here Dr. Ataie's point is important, the prophets repeatedly warn that sacrifice without repentance is meaningless: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

So in the Tanakh sacrifice, repentance, and righteousness always belong together.

When Isaiah 52:13–53:12 is read as a whole, it forms a structured poem: 1-Isaiah 52:13-15; God announces the servant’s future exaltation. 2-Isaiah 53:1-3; The servant is rejected and misunderstood. 3-Isaiah 53:4-6; Observers realize their mistake. 4-Isaiah 53:7-9; The servant suffers unjustly. 5-Isaiah 53:10-12; God vindicates and exalts him.

The servant suffers and is "cut off," yet afterward he is vindicated by God. So yes, Isaiah doesn’t mention messiah, he is more so poetically describing an archetypal pattern of the righteous servant who suffers innocently and is later vindicated. Figures like Jeremiah or John the Baptist reflect aspects of that pattern, but in the gospel accounts Jesus embodies it in its fullest form, he says of himself: "all the things written about me in the Torah of Moses and in the prophets (Nevi'im) and Psalms must be fulfilled."

For instance, when Abraham was prepared to offer his son in obedience to God, God stopped him and provided a ram in his place:

"Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son." — Genesis 22:13

And Abraham named that place Jehovah-jireh ("Jehovah will provide"). — Genesis 22:14

So already in the Torah we see a powerful pattern: the faithful servant is willing to give everything to God, but ultimately God Himself provides the offering. This connects with the broader sacrificial language and the mission of Jesus within that earlier Torah framework.

Just as Abraham’s son was willing to give his life in obedience but was spared when God provided the ram, Jesus offers his life voluntarily but again 'Jehovah provides.' After his resurrection he is described as existing in a transformed spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44), something that could perhaps be compared with what I've found in Shi'ism around the 'jism mithali' a subtle or imaginal resurrection body.

In that sense Jesus earthly life, which is symbolized by his blood in Christian theological understanding becomes the basis for atonement and reconciliation between God and faithful mankind, I could go into that another time if someone wanted.

So all together the story of Abraham, the sacrificial system established in the Torah, and the righteous servant in Isaiah, we can see a recurring pattern in the biblical narrative. God’s faithful servants may suffer and be misunderstood, yet through that suffering God brings about reconciliation and understanding. In that sense, the claim that Jesus fulfills 'the Torah and the prophets' is not necessarily about reading too much into the text, but about how his life reveals a deeper meaning already present within it; what one might describe in Shi'i terms as the batin emerging from the zahir in the Tanakh. "And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures." Luke 24:27.

That is how the pattern appears to me when reading these passages together. I would genuinely be interested to hear how others, especially those more familiar with the Islamic tradition of interpretation understand the connections.

I am curious about how Jesus himself is understood within Islamic theology. I know he is believed to have been raised to heaven, so I would be interested in the theological understanding behind that. And how does the idea of the Messiah relate to Jesus’ role on earth within Qur’anic interpretation?