Complexity and hardship of Khums (in the west)

[ir_nas57]

Salam alaykum, 

 

This may be bit of a long post mixed with rants, experiences, thoughts, and questions.

a bit about myself : I am born and raised in America , come from a religious seyed fam that fled oppression in the 90s, I have always seen myself as religious and focused on school , education and my professional career as a person with the challenges of a Shia muslim, an American, and someone with medical needs. despite all of that alhemdillah I pray , fast , pay khums and zakat and even did hajj in 2024.

 

Now the reason for this post, I have only been employed in a professional job about 3 years (and laid off recently), and ofc the average American knows how complicated finances and expenses can be to begin with;

• 401k,
• Roth 401k,
• Roth  IRA,
• IRA ,
• HSA ,
• FSA ,
• 403 b,
• pensions
• trusts 
• savings ,
• checking ,
• inheritance and associated tax
• income tax ,
• sales tax ,
• property tax ,
• mortgages,
• tax brokerage accounts,
• credit cards 
• health insurance
• car insurance 

and this isn't even all of it, in America life isn't as simple as what I've seen in eurpoe or other parts of the world where even if you are taxed you get some sort of assistance, and the whole point of said taxes are to build a safety net for those who contribute, in America playing the tax code LEGALLY is encouraged and crucial at times. 

 

when it comes to Khums there isn't a way to understand how to go about paying on all these complicated assets, if one does not contribute to retirement accounts they will be so far behind and even have financial trouble in later years , I see so many lectures in America and elsewhere emphasize the importance of khums and I understand that and agree with it as well. but at the same time I as a working class American barley understand the complicated finances, and need an accountant to help with my taxes, but with islam and khums which is even more complicated and the best roll find is a generic calculator we need to calculate what 20% of our surplus is. 

there was a time 1-2 years ago I went to a well known organization that represents my marja in the US for help with this, I opened up my accounts and showed him, I told him I pay and paid my  khums but in regards to my 401k idk how to go about this all he could tell me is "if its within your control "Beedeck (in your hands in arabic)" then you must pay khums on it", which didn't answer our help at all and he just disregarded me and when I said I think I have paid all my khums dues he became angry and said I wasted his time and he had to open the center just for me (mind you I drove 4 hours to his city and the center was open bc there were kids there and he just had to be in his office)... after this I do more reading and research and go to their site and find out they receive 1/3 of sehm il imam and I hate to think this but feel like he didn't accept to meet with me because he's a sheikh and I need to pay my dues but rather bc it would have been money in his pocket or bc of him ... it really made me bitter and I felt guilty. I know the 1/3 of sehm il imam is there to keep our scholars and masjid improving and funded (with approval ofc).

 

after lots of reading I come across we need to pay khums on what we invest into an account , and in regards to 401k it would be 1/5 of what you contribute into it and growth and employer match isn't due until you pull it out and you come to your khums date and I found that al-ayn is accepted by my marja and I don't have to interact with a sheikh that would have a personal gain out of it. but this as far as I see it is just a bandaid to the issues I had... when I am 60-70 and want to pull money out how would I go about knowing how much I owe minus the amount I have paid already 5,10,15,20, 30 years prior ???

 

I don't doubt or question the knowledge of our scholars , but I've seen churches take advantage of donations, sunnis , and even Shia seyeds and sheikhs , they are people and each group has theft ... with all those types of accounts I mentioned and more , would our maraca in the middle east know the nuance of it ? heck even scholars and clerics in the west earn money differently and I don't imagine would have a deep understanding on how complicated the finances can be. I'm involved in my center , I donate and I've seen first hand how money influences speakers that come ... it's their occupation but what's the line ??? I've reached out to several sheikhs online, met with them physically , dms , texts, what'sapp , those in America and even from the Middle East, and not one had enough knowledge to help with this and just give generic guidance. finances are where personal and private , not even my family know, but to make my money halal I openly show and am an open book with them and still no help.

 

like I mentioned, I was recently laid off and I have bills, family , medical , and other expenses , without medical insurance just my medicine is thousands a month, I have a bit of savings and my chums date is soon, I am applying for jobs and work but the job market is horrendous at this moment ... ofc I will pay my khums but in my situation every dollar I have counts , do I have to deplete my savings , checking account, 401k , etc before I can say I'm in financial need ? 

I understand the need and obligation of khums, but its a system I put into so much and as a seyed there's sehm il saada that from a religious standpoint is there for me, but practically if I need the organizations I have given my khums to won't give me when I'm in need. 

shia I know don't pay khums for these reasons or less, there is no transparency or accessibility with this, we just have to trust a sit a marja mentions or their representative  and that's the extent of it. I'm willing to pay people to answer these questions and guide me , I don't own a home and the cost of living is just going up, and life just gets harder. money today is not the same as it was 1400-1700 years ago and we all treat it as giving khums is as easy as as counting gold coins.

 

please give me some advice , feedback , guidance ... and please don't look at my post as a reason to not pay khums , my frustration is with the lack of support not the religious obligation.

[Abu Hassanain]

13 hours ago, ir_nas57 said:

Salam alaykum, 

 

This may be bit of a long post mixed with rants, experiences, thoughts, and questions.

a bit about myself : I am born and raised in America , come from a religious seyed fam that fled oppression in the 90s, I have always seen myself as religious and focused on school , education and my professional career as a person with the challenges of a Shia muslim, an American, and someone with medical needs. despite all of that alhemdillah I pray , fast , pay khums and zakat and even did hajj in 2024.

 

Now the reason for this post, I have only been employed in a professional job about 3 years (and laid off recently), and ofc the average American knows how complicated finances and expenses can be to begin with;

• 401k,
• Roth 401k,
• Roth  IRA,
• IRA ,
• HSA ,
• FSA ,
• 403 b,
• pensions
• trusts 
• savings ,
• checking ,
• inheritance and associated tax
• income tax ,
• sales tax ,
• property tax ,
• mortgages,
• tax brokerage accounts,
• credit cards 
• health insurance
• car insurance 

and this isn't even all of it, in America life isn't as simple as what I've seen in eurpoe or other parts of the world where even if you are taxed you get some sort of assistance, and the whole point of said taxes are to build a safety net for those who contribute, in America playing the tax code LEGALLY is encouraged and crucial at times. 

 

when it comes to Khums there isn't a way to understand how to go about paying on all these complicated assets, if one does not contribute to retirement accounts they will be so far behind and even have financial trouble in later years , I see so many lectures in America and elsewhere emphasize the importance of khums and I understand that and agree with it as well. but at the same time I as a working class American barley understand the complicated finances, and need an accountant to help with my taxes, but with islam and khums which is even more complicated and the best roll find is a generic calculator we need to calculate what 20% of our surplus is. 

there was a time 1-2 years ago I went to a well known organization that represents my marja in the US for help with this, I opened up my accounts and showed him, I told him I pay and paid my  khums but in regards to my 401k idk how to go about this all he could tell me is "if its within your control "Beedeck (in your hands in arabic)" then you must pay khums on it", which didn't answer our help at all and he just disregarded me and when I said I think I have paid all my khums dues he became angry and said I wasted his time and he had to open the center just for me (mind you I drove 4 hours to his city and the center was open bc there were kids there and he just had to be in his office)... after this I do more reading and research and go to their site and find out they receive 1/3 of sehm il imam and I hate to think this but feel like he didn't accept to meet with me because he's a sheikh and I need to pay my dues but rather bc it would have been money in his pocket or bc of him ... it really made me bitter and I felt guilty. I know the 1/3 of sehm il imam is there to keep our scholars and masjid improving and funded (with approval ofc).

 

after lots of reading I come across we need to pay khums on what we invest into an account , and in regards to 401k it would be 1/5 of what you contribute into it and growth and employer match isn't due until you pull it out and you come to your khums date and I found that al-ayn is accepted by my marja and I don't have to interact with a sheikh that would have a personal gain out of it. but this as far as I see it is just a bandaid to the issues I had... when I am 60-70 and want to pull money out how would I go about knowing how much I owe minus the amount I have paid already 5,10,15,20, 30 years prior ???

 

I don't doubt or question the knowledge of our scholars , but I've seen churches take advantage of donations, sunnis , and even Shia seyeds and sheikhs , they are people and each group has theft ... with all those types of accounts I mentioned and more , would our maraca in the middle east know the nuance of it ? heck even scholars and clerics in the west earn money differently and I don't imagine would have a deep understanding on how complicated the finances can be. I'm involved in my center , I donate and I've seen first hand how money influences speakers that come ... it's their occupation but what's the line ??? I've reached out to several sheikhs online, met with them physically , dms , texts, what'sapp , those in America and even from the Middle East, and not one had enough knowledge to help with this and just give generic guidance. finances are where personal and private , not even my family know, but to make my money halal I openly show and am an open book with them and still no help.

 

like I mentioned, I was recently laid off and I have bills, family , medical , and other expenses , without medical insurance just my medicine is thousands a month, I have a bit of savings and my chums date is soon, I am applying for jobs and work but the job market is horrendous at this moment ... ofc I will pay my khums but in my situation every dollar I have counts , do I have to deplete my savings , checking account, 401k , etc before I can say I'm in financial need ? 

I understand the need and obligation of khums, but its a system I put into so much and as a seyed there's sehm il saada that from a religious standpoint is there for me, but practically if I need the organizations I have given my khums to won't give me when I'm in need. 

shia I know don't pay khums for these reasons or less, there is no transparency or accessibility with this, we just have to trust a sit a marja mentions or their representative  and that's the extent of it. I'm willing to pay people to answer these questions and guide me , I don't own a home and the cost of living is just going up, and life just gets harder. money today is not the same as it was 1400-1700 years ago and we all treat it as giving khums is as easy as as counting gold coins.

 

please give me some advice , feedback , guidance ... and please don't look at my post as a reason to not pay khums , my frustration is with the lack of support not the religious obligation.

Salam

and the third level of the seminary and Islamic legal classes there are two discussions on the 4K and all their such fun issues

You have two options you can pay every year 20% of what you put in that year. You can break it down to monthly payments in a separate account that’s sent out at the end of the year if that’s easier.

The other option is you can pay 20% on the total amount once you withdraw the funds and they become accessible rather than paying on the money before you put it in

As for houses, you pay 20% when you buy a house

Can you pay 20% on the increase anytime the value increases in this goes for rental houses and second property as well

You pay 20% on any mutual fund stocks bonds other such things you get you pay 20% on the increase

If you put $1 million in the bank, you pay 200,000 initially and if it goes up 10,000 the next year you pay 2000 it doesn’t destroy all the money. I know you didn’t ask that but some people think that it confuses people.

The date of your khums year you pay everything based on what assets you have and what you haven’t used like you 100 shirts and you know you only wore 40 you would pay on 60 that could be the price or physical shirts, the unused gas in your car for that day the opened and unused or access food beyond what is normal and for all of this, you can just estimate the price if it’s all stuff you would normally use it it’s not an excessive food then it doesn’t matter most of the skylight so you don’t have to pay an open things just unopened things 

The other kind is if you get suddenly more money than you can spend in a year or you had money that was sitting in a font for a year you pay immediately regardless of whether you did that

For example, memo and son day is June 1. I had a settlement with the credit card company. We’re paying them so much money for 18 months. There was some leftover money we got the money back. We immediately paid on that when it was released because the money had sat for more than a year.

[Abu Hassanain]

13 hours ago, ir_nas57 said:

Salam alaykum, 

 

This may be bit of a long post mixed with rants, experiences, thoughts, and questions.

a bit about myself : I am born and raised in America , come from a religious seyed fam that fled oppression in the 90s, I have always seen myself as religious and focused on school , education and my professional career as a person with the challenges of a Shia muslim, an American, and someone with medical needs. despite all of that alhemdillah I pray , fast , pay khums and zakat and even did hajj in 2024.

 

Now the reason for this post, I have only been employed in a professional job about 3 years (and laid off recently), and ofc the average American knows how complicated finances and expenses can be to begin with;

• 401k,
• Roth 401k,
• Roth  IRA,
• IRA ,
• HSA ,
• FSA ,
• 403 b,
• pensions
• trusts 
• savings ,
• checking ,
• inheritance and associated tax
• income tax ,
• sales tax ,
• property tax ,
• mortgages,
• tax brokerage accounts,
• credit cards 
• health insurance
• car insurance 

and this isn't even all of it, in America life isn't as simple as what I've seen in eurpoe or other parts of the world where even if you are taxed you get some sort of assistance, and the whole point of said taxes are to build a safety net for those who contribute, in America playing the tax code LEGALLY is encouraged and crucial at times. 

 

when it comes to Khums there isn't a way to understand how to go about paying on all these complicated assets, if one does not contribute to retirement accounts they will be so far behind and even have financial trouble in later years , I see so many lectures in America and elsewhere emphasize the importance of khums and I understand that and agree with it as well. but at the same time I as a working class American barley understand the complicated finances, and need an accountant to help with my taxes, but with islam and khums which is even more complicated and the best roll find is a generic calculator we need to calculate what 20% of our surplus is. 

there was a time 1-2 years ago I went to a well known organization that represents my marja in the US for help with this, I opened up my accounts and showed him, I told him I pay and paid my  khums but in regards to my 401k idk how to go about this all he could tell me is "if its within your control "Beedeck (in your hands in arabic)" then you must pay khums on it", which didn't answer our help at all and he just disregarded me and when I said I think I have paid all my khums dues he became angry and said I wasted his time and he had to open the center just for me (mind you I drove 4 hours to his city and the center was open bc there were kids there and he just had to be in his office)... after this I do more reading and research and go to their site and find out they receive 1/3 of sehm il imam and I hate to think this but feel like he didn't accept to meet with me because he's a sheikh and I need to pay my dues but rather bc it would have been money in his pocket or bc of him ... it really made me bitter and I felt guilty. I know the 1/3 of sehm il imam is there to keep our scholars and masjid improving and funded (with approval ofc).

 

after lots of reading I come across we need to pay khums on what we invest into an account , and in regards to 401k it would be 1/5 of what you contribute into it and growth and employer match isn't due until you pull it out and you come to your khums date and I found that al-ayn is accepted by my marja and I don't have to interact with a sheikh that would have a personal gain out of it. but this as far as I see it is just a bandaid to the issues I had... when I am 60-70 and want to pull money out how would I go about knowing how much I owe minus the amount I have paid already 5,10,15,20, 30 years prior ???

 

I don't doubt or question the knowledge of our scholars , but I've seen churches take advantage of donations, sunnis , and even Shia seyeds and sheikhs , they are people and each group has theft ... with all those types of accounts I mentioned and more , would our maraca in the middle east know the nuance of it ? heck even scholars and clerics in the west earn money differently and I don't imagine would have a deep understanding on how complicated the finances can be. I'm involved in my center , I donate and I've seen first hand how money influences speakers that come ... it's their occupation but what's the line ??? I've reached out to several sheikhs online, met with them physically , dms , texts, what'sapp , those in America and even from the Middle East, and not one had enough knowledge to help with this and just give generic guidance. finances are where personal and private , not even my family know, but to make my money halal I openly show and am an open book with them and still no help.

 

like I mentioned, I was recently laid off and I have bills, family , medical , and other expenses , without medical insurance just my medicine is thousands a month, I have a bit of savings and my chums date is soon, I am applying for jobs and work but the job market is horrendous at this moment ... ofc I will pay my khums but in my situation every dollar I have counts , do I have to deplete my savings , checking account, 401k , etc before I can say I'm in financial need ? 

I understand the need and obligation of khums, but its a system I put into so much and as a seyed there's sehm il saada that from a religious standpoint is there for me, but practically if I need the organizations I have given my khums to won't give me when I'm in need. 

shia I know don't pay khums for these reasons or less, there is no transparency or accessibility with this, we just have to trust a sit a marja mentions or their representative  and that's the extent of it. I'm willing to pay people to answer these questions and guide me , I don't own a home and the cost of living is just going up, and life just gets harder. money today is not the same as it was 1400-1700 years ago and we all treat it as giving khums is as easy as as counting gold coins.

 

please give me some advice , feedback , guidance ... and please don't look at my post as a reason to not pay khums , my frustration is with the lack of support not the religious obligation.

Salam

The 1/3 that the representatives are allowed to spend is not supposed to be on themselves. That is their discretion for their community. They are paid a separate salary.

The massive amount of corruption in North America is a different thing. People are not supposed to be taking the money. They collect in buying themselves houses because it is necessary for their social station and other weird excuses they come up with.

They are supposed to keep a list the infallible’s used to tell people what they had what they owed and why and would show what it was spent on, and we have narration of that affect

Now I’m gonna be general and vague because of the rules on the site and the rules of

I would just say that I don’t approve of or trust any organization to collect funds in all of North America

They’re individual representatives for different scholars that I find OK but the large organizations of which they’re about 1000 no I cannot endorse or trust a single one

There are a certain rules and regulations that aren’t being followed

Does that mean you don’t pay of course not for Sahm Imam one would simply need to either find an organization or another country that is following the rules and trustworthy or pay to worthwhile organizations themselves directly

Numerous people, regardless of what said here in the states that asked the scouts we don’t trust we love you but we don’t trust your representatives we don’t feel the money is being spent right etc. there were surprised when they get the answer it “Imam Mahdi said khums is halal for my Shia until I return” another similar narrations, giving them permission to spend themselves

It is an obligation however you’re fulfilling it

wallahu Alam 

[ir_nas57]

Salam Alaykum

11 minutes ago, Abu Hassanain said:

Salam

and the third level of the seminary and Islamic legal classes there are two discussions on the 4K and all their such fun issues

You have two options you can pay every year 20% of what you put in that year. You can break it down to monthly payments in a separate account that’s sent out at the end of the year if that’s easier.

The other option is you can pay 20% on the total amount once you withdraw the funds and they become accessible rather than paying on the money before you put it in

As for houses, you pay 20% when you buy a house

Can you pay 20% on the increase anytime the value increases in this goes for rental houses and second property as well

You pay 20% on any mutual fund stocks bonds other such things you get you pay 20% on the increase

If you put $1 million in the bank, you pay 200,000 initially and if it goes up 10,000 the next year you pay 2000 it doesn’t destroy all the money. I know you didn’t ask that but some people think that it confuses people.

The date of your khums year you pay everything based on what assets you have and what you haven’t used like you 100 shirts and you know you only wore 40 you would pay on 60 that could be the price or physical shirts, the unused gas in your car for that day the opened and unused or access food beyond what is normal and for all of this, you can just estimate the price if it’s all stuff you would normally use it it’s not an excessive food then it doesn’t matter most of the skylight so you don’t have to pay an open things just unopened things 

The other kind is if you get suddenly more money than you can spend in a year or you had money that was sitting in a font for a year you pay immediately regardless of whether you did that

For example, memo and son day is June 1. I had a settlement with the credit card company. We’re paying them so much money for 18 months. There was some leftover money we got the money back. We immediately paid on that when it was released because the money had sat for more than a year.

I have an excel spreadsheet I use to track and annotate what I do invest and make to try to simplify the process , I understand one pays 20% on those things and I do try my best to do so, in the easiest way I know how to in a way that makes sense, so a 401k for example one puts a monthly amount in he elects to be eft out of his paycheck lets say $100 , and I'm responsible for paying $20 for khums over months and years the value of the 401k may go down or slightly up but its not liquid or money you have access to until you sell it and it belongs to what your company invested in until you sell it , if you do so before an age the government has set then its heavily taxed as a form of a penalty. 

the khums on it is just as much as what you get but that's money one doesn't have ability to spend.

 

another example is money for healthcare such as FSA or HSA that's an amount taken out of ones paycheck and its only allowed to be used for health related things for you, not like one can cash it and pay chums from it, does that mean he has to pay out of his pocket which sounds simple enough but in times where the economy and employment are very difficult its asking a person to put themselves in a harder financial situation when a community isn't there to assist them when they need it.

 

ifff there's a good way to calculate and track these things why can't I find someone to assist in it, an accountant isn't going to really know the sharia aspects , and a sheikh won't understand the tax and financial complexities, they may teach this in seminaries for all I know but like I mentioned I have gone to several sheikhs and they are either dismissive or won't do it unless its them that get to handle the khums (and receive the 1/3) and they never know how to go about all the types of investments bc its complicated. 

I know their not supposed to use the money themselves but its more likely that a sheikh has his center or org that is "approved" to receive it and the success of that center indirectly benefits his image and how he is compensated, being a sheikh isn't exactly a heavily regulated industry and there's a lot of discretion