James The Brother of Jesus / Dr. Ali Ataie

[Eddie Mecca]

Dr. Ali discusses certain aspects of Nascent Christianity, the controversial Saul of Tarsus (a.k.a. St. Paul) and the advent of Dajjal - Streamed 2 days ago - approximately 2 hours - highly interesting for serious students of comparative religion 

 

[Eddie Mecca]

In Shi'i lists or transmissions of divine successorship among the Ali Imran where or how is James The Just (a) ranked? I once saw a hadith where Peter (a) was listed as Jesus's successor... What do we say about James?

[Eddie Mecca]

Do we (i.e. Shi'a) believe like the Catholics and maintain that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life? Or do we believe she married Joseph The Carpenter and possibly gave birth to other children or is there ikhtilaaf on the matter?

[ServantOfMahdi]

The New Testament is explicit in conveying that after Jesus' (عليه السلام) birth, Mary سلام اللہ علیہا and Joseph the Carpenter (عليه السلام) brought him up together as a married couple.

Jesus' siblings?

Named brothers:
James (Yaʿqūb)
Joses (Yūsī / Joseph)
Simon (Shimʿūn)
Judas (Jude / Yahūdhā)

Matthew 13:55–56, Mark 6:3
“Is not this the carpenter’s son? … Are not his brothers James and Joses and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?”
The sisters are not named.

There are three main views:

1. They were Mary’s other children

Held by many Protestants

Implies Mary did not remain perpetually virgin

2. They were step-brothers (children of Joseph from a previous marriage)

Common in Eastern Orthodox Christianity

3. They were cousins or close relatives

Held by Roman Catholics

Based on Semitic usage where “brother” can mean kinsman

[ServantOfMahdi]

As for now, I don't know whether there are any Shia hadiths over this subject. If any, provided having a sound narration chain, that'll be decisive to the extent of what the matn mentions. If not, then either we rely on what's available not contradicting the Qur'an, or we believe in only what the Qur'an states and reject and disbelieve in whatever it doesn't mention (which obviously doesn't sound wise), the extreme literalism peculiar to Salafism.

[Abu Hassanain]

17 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Do we (i.e. Shi'a) believe like the Catholics and maintain that Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life? Or do we believe she married Joseph The Carpenter and possibly gave birth to other children or is there ikhtilaaf on the matter?

Salam

The idea of Joseph, the carpenter is foreign to both Shia a majority of Sunni and other School narrations

She remained a virgin in her whole life and like other infallible there’s a debate about her anatomy and even parts or functions they did or didn’t have there’s a more old school belief and comb more madness, and old-school belief back by science, a progressive view, and an in-between view very controversial topic 

The belief in our sources is that she passed away during the lifetime of prophet. Jesus peace be upon him because we have some narrations about him having a conversation with his mother about the things she missed in the world and the only thing she said she missed was getting up on a cold dark night washing up with cold water and praying in a cold place

There are some discussion among the scholars since she never married during her lifetime she would marry the holy prophet, peace, and blessings, be upon them in the kingdom of return and the Lady Fatima, the infallible of qum with Mary prophet Jesus peace be upon him in the kingdom of return

Very interesting topic and God knows best

Most of the discussions I’ve seen both Peter and James are considered the first and second of 12 successes of prophet Jesus, peace and blessings be on him 

wallahu Alam 

[Abu Hassanain]

8 hours ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

As for now, I don't know whether there are any Shia hadiths over this subject. If any, provided having a sound narration chain, that'll be decisive to the extent of what the matn mentions. If not, then either we rely on what's available not contradicting the Qur'an, or we believe in only what the Qur'an states and reject and disbelieve in whatever it doesn't mention (which obviously doesn't sound wise), the extreme literalism peculiar to Salafism.

Salam

this is the definitive work on it 

https://al-islam.org/jesus-through-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/successor-jesus

[Eddie Mecca]

3 hours ago, Abu Hassanain said:

There are some discussion among the scholars since she never married during her lifetime

Like Dr. Ali said, her never marrying would be highly, highly, highly problematic according to the timeperiod and according to Judaism (i.e. Islam)... Islam discourages severe forms of monkery, irfan and Sufism... it seems like there's no definitive answer to this query... the terms "brother" , "sister" etc. could also mean "cousin" or "relative" in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic 

[Eddie Mecca]

Perpetual virginity of Mary - Wikipedia https://share.google/set22TtOm4GvHyFKD

Perpetual virginity of Mary

The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Christian doctrine that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin "before, during and after" the birth of Christ.^[2] In Western Christianity, the Catholic Church adheres to the doctrine, as do many Lutherans, some Anglicans, Reformed, and other Protestants.^{[3][4][5][6][7]} In Eastern Christianity, the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Church of the East both adhere to this doctrine as part of their ongoing tradition,^[8][9] and Eastern Orthodox churches recognize Mary as Aeiparthenos, meaning "ever-virgin".^[10] It is one of the four Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church.^[11] Most modern nonconformist Protestants, such as the Plymouth Brethren, reject the doctrine.^[12]

 

The extant written tradition of the perpetual virginity of Mary first appears in a late 2nd-century text called the Protoevangelium of James.^[13] The Second Council of Constantinople in 553 gave her the title "Aeiparthenos", meaning Perpetual Virgin, and at the Lateran Synod of 649 Pope Martin I emphasized the threefold character of the perpetual virginity, before, during, and after the birth of Christ.^[14] The Lutheran Smalcald Articles (1537) and the Reformed Second Helvetic Confession (1562) codified the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary as well.^[15][3]

The doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity has been challenged on the basis that the New Testament explicitly affirms her virginity only until the birth of Jesus^[16] and mentions the brothers (adelphoi) of Jesus,^[17][18] who may have been: (1) sons of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Joseph; (2) sons of Joseph by a former marriage; or (3) sons of the Mary named in Mark 15:40 as "mother of James and Joses", who has been identified as either the wife of Clopas and sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, or a sister-in-law to Joseph.^[19][a]

Origin and history

1st century

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Early Christian writings from the late first and early second centuries offer only sparse and sometimes unclear hints about virginity and celibacy, and in the Gospels Mary’s virginity is mentioned only briefly, in a way that keeps the focus on the virginal conception rather than on any later state of her life.^[20]

The infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke present Mary as a virgin at the time she conceives Jesus, a conception that does not involve sexual relations with a man, but this fact by itself does not require the further claim that she remained a virgin in childbirth or afterward.^[21]

Only in later doctrinal reflection do Christians explicitly describe Mary as virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ, with the second-century Protevangelium of James providing the earliest surviving text that clearly supports this view.^[22] The increasing acceptance of Mary’s perpetual virginity, together with theological formulations shaped by the text, came to serve as a marker of emerging ascetic tendencies in later centuries.^[23]

The Odes of Solomon have been interpreted as implying that Mary was a virgin even during childbirth as well as stating that Mary did not have pain during childbirth.^[24][25] Similar statements exist in the Ascension of Isaiah;^[26] for example, the passage "And after her astonishment had worn off her womb was found as (it was) at first, before she had conceived" is described by scholars as an "extraordinary process".^[27]

2nd century

marriage of Joseph.^[31][32]

Tertullian, who came between Clement and Origen, denied Mary's virginity during birth to refute the docetist idea that the Son of God could not have assumed a human body, stating: "although she was a virgin when she conceived, she was a wife when she brought forth her son".^[46] However, is not entirely clear on the issue of Mary's virginity after childbirth, with some scholars denying his traditional association with Helvidius's position.^[47][48][49]

Helvidius argued that Victorinus believed that Mary had other children.^[50] According to Jerome Helvidius was misinterpreting Victorinus.^[51] Epiphanius invented a name "Antidicomarians" for a group of people who denied the perpetual virginity of Mary, which Epiphanius attacked.^[52] Their same views were also mentioned earlier by Origen, although he too rejected them as heretical.^[53] They were active from the 3rd to the 5th century.^[54]

According to Epiphanius the Antidicomarians claimed that Apollinaris of Laodicea or his disciples denied the perpetual virginity of Mary, though Epiphanius doubted the claim.^[55]

Eusebius (260/265–339/340) and Epiphanius (c. 310/320–403) defended the perpetual virginity of Mary.^{[citation needed]}

Hippolytus of Rome (170–235) held that Mary was "ever-virgin"^[56]

4th century

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By the early 4th century the spread of monasticism had promoted celibacy as the ideal state,^[57] and a moral hierarchy was established with marriage occupying the third rank below life-long virginity and widowhood.^[58] Eastern theologians generally accepted Mary as Ever-virgin (Aeiparthenos), but many in the Western church were less convinced.^[59]

Helvidius objected to the devaluation of marriage inherent in this view and argued that the two states, of virginity and marriage, were equal.^[60] His contemporary Jerome, realising that this would lead to the Mother of God occupying a lower place in heaven than virgins and widows, defended her perpetual virginity in his immensely influential Against Helvidius, issued c.383.^[61]

 

the perpetual virginity of Mary.^[5]

With respect to the Reformed tradition (Continental Reformed, Presbyterian, Reformed Anglican and Congregationalist denominations), John Calvin's view was more ambiguous, believing that knowing what happened to Mary after the birth of Jesus is impossible.^[82] However John Calvin argued that Matthew 1:25, used by Helvidius to attack the perpetual virginity of Mary does not teach that Mary had other children.^[88] Other Calvinists affirmed Mary's perpetual virginity, including within the Second Helvetic Confession—stating that Mary was the "ever virgin Mary"—and in the notes of the Geneva Bible.^[89][3] Theodore Beza, a prominent early Calvinist, included the perpetual virginity of Mary in a list of agreements between Calvinism and the Catholic Church.^[90] Some reformers upheld the doctrine to counter more radical reformers who questioned the divinity of Christ; Mary's perpetual virginity guaranteed the Incarnation of Christ despite the challenges to its scriptural foundations.^[91] Modern nonconformist Protestants, such as the Plymouth Brethren, have largely rejected the perpetual virginity of Mary on the basis of sola scriptura, and it has rarely appeared explicitly in confessions or doctrinal statements,^[92][93] though the perpetual virginity of Mary remains a common belief in Lutheranism and Anglicanism.^[94]

Among the Anabaptists, Hubmaier never abandoned his belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary and continued to esteem Mary as theotokos ("mother of God"). These two doctrinal stances are addressed individually in Articles Nine and Ten, respectively, of Hubmaier's work, Apologia.^[95]

Doctrine

The Second Council of Constantinople recognized Mary as Aeiparthenos, meaning "ever-virgin".^[10] It remains axiomatic for the Eastern Orthodox Church that she remained virginal throughout her Earthly life, and Orthodoxy therefore understands the New Testament references to the brothers and sisters of Jesus as signifying his kin, but not the biological children of his mother.^[97]

The Latin Church, known more commonly today as the Catholic Church, shared the Council of Constantinople with the theologians of the Greek or Orthodox communion, and therefore shares with them the title Aeiparthenos as accorded to Mary. The Catholic Church has gone further than the Orthodox in making the Perpetual Virginity one of the four Marian dogmas, meaning that it is held to be a truth divinely revealed, the denial of which is heresy.^[11] It declares her virginity before, during and after the birth of Jesus,^[98] or in the definition formulated by Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council of 649:^[99]

The blessed ever-virginal and immaculate Mary conceived, without seed, by the Holy Spirit, and without loss of integrity brought him forth, and after his birth preserved her virginity inviolate.

Thomas Aquinas admitted that reason could not prove this, but argued that it must be accepted because it was "fitting",^[100] for as Jesus was the only-begotten son of God, so he should also be the only-begotten son of Mary, as a second and purely human conception would disrespect the sacred state of her holy womb.^[101] Symbolically, the perpetual virginity of Mary signifies a new creation and a fresh start in salvation history.^[102] It has been stated and argued repeatedly, most recently by the Second Vatican Council:^[103]

This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception [...] then also at the birth of Our Lord, who did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it...

— Lumen Gentium, No.57

Arguments and evidence

 

A problem facing theologians wishing to maintain Mary's life-long virginity is that the Pauline epistles, the four gospels, and the Acts of the Apostles all mention the brothers (adelphoi) of Jesus; both Matthew and Mark record their names and add unnamed sisters.^[17][104][b] The Gospel of James, followed a century later by Epiphanius, explained the adelphoi as Joseph's children by an earlier marriage,^[105] which is still the view of the Eastern Orthodox Christian churches.^[106] Jerome, believing that Joseph, like Mary, must be a life-long virgin,^[107] argued that these adelphoi were the sons of "Mary, the mother of James and Joses" (Mark 15:40), who he identified with the wife of Clopas and sister of the virgin Mary (John 19:25),^[106] which remains popular in the Western church. A modern proposal considers these adelphoi sons of "Mary, the mother of James and Joses" (not here identified with the Virgin Mary's sister), and Clopas, who according to Hegesippus was Joseph's brother.^[106]

Further scriptural difficulties were added by Luke 2:7, which calls Jesus the "first-born" son of Mary,^[108] and Matthew 1:25, which adds that Joseph "did not know her until she had brought forth her firstborn son." The phrase "did not know her" is a euphemism for sexual relations.^[109] Most scholars argue the grammar of Matthew 1:25 neither confirms nor denies the perpetual virginity of Mary.^[110] However, other scholars challenge this claim, especially in light of discoveries in modern linguistics.^[111]

Helvidius argued that first-born implies later births, and that the word "until" left open the way to sexual relations after the birth; Jerome, replying that even an only son will be a first-born and that "until" did not have the meaning Helvidius construed for it, painted a repulsive word-portrait of Joseph having intercourse with a blood-stained and exhausted Mary immediately after she has given birth—the implication, in his view, of Helvidius's arguments.^[61] Opinions on the quality of Jerome's rebuttal range from the view that it was masterful and well-argued to thin, rhetorical and sometimes tasteless.^[14]

Two other 4th century Fathers, Gregory of Nyssa, following "a certain apocryphal account", and Augustine, advanced a further argument by reading Luke 1:34^[112] as a vow of perpetual virginity on Mary's part; this idea, first introduced in the Protoevangelium of James, has little scholarly support today,^[113] but it and the arguments advanced by Jerome and Ambrose were put forward by Pope John Paul II in his catechesis of August 28, 1996, as the four facts supporting the Catholic Church's ongoing faith in Mary's perpetual virginity.^[114]

It has been argued from John 19, where Jesus entrusts Mary to the disciple John instead of his brothers, to support the view that Jesus had no brothers,^[115] however Protestants have generally argued in two ways against this passage, one by claiming that the brothers of Jesus were unbelievers or that they were not present during the crucifixion.^[116] This interpretation is generally rejected by Catholic and Orthodox writers, emphasising that even if non believers, Jewish customs still required the eldest son to take responsibility for his mother.^[115][117]

Some^[who?] have argued that Mary and Joseph could not have had a normal marriage if Mary remained a perpetual virgin; however, it has been argued by some Catholics^{[example needed]} that there is evidence that celibacy within marriage was already practiced by the Qumran community and other Jews at that time.^[118]

Catholic priest and New Testament scholar John P. Meier argues that although the preponderance of scriptural evidence indicates that Jesus had siblings, the evidence is not conclusive enough to disprove the perpetual virginity of Mary.^[119]

 

 

Edited January 13 by Eddie Mecca
Adding

[Abu Hassanain]

40 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Like Dr. Ali said, her never marrying would be highly, highly, highly problematic according to the timeperiod and according to Judaism (i.e. Islam)... Islam discourages severe forms of monkery, irfan and Sufism... it seems like there's no definitive answer to this query... the terms "brother" , "sister" etc. could also mean "cousin" or "relative" in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic 

Salam

it’s really not problematic and tends to be the mainstream opinion among our scholars. Her case was same as Sayyida Fatimah bint Masuma Al Qummi as, who was a virgin her whole life and would marry in rajah 

wallahu Alam 

[Qa'im]

https://bliis.org/essay/the-apostles-the-early-church-and-islam/

[Eddie Mecca]

"Is this what the Quran meant when it said, speaking of the righteous apostles, “they became dominant” (Quran 61:14)?"

Perhaps Qur'an 61:14 is mentioning the emergence of a future religion that would champion the forgotten cause of an unsullied position... An indigenous party... A forgotten camp... An unpolluted front that was sidelined... The James The Just movement (i.e. Jewish Christianity) was reduced to a sliver... The advent of Islam represents a defeat of the unrecognizable, adulterated, Hellenized adaptation... Especially since the growth of Islam is prophesied to swallow and overtake every other way of life

Edited January 14 by Eddie Mecca
Adding

[Abu Hassanain]

12 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

"Is this what the Quran meant when it said, speaking of the righteous apostles, “they became dominant” (Quran 61:14)?"

Salam

what for lack of a better word academic school Unitarian Christianity died out in the early 400s the Trinitarian movement, which child the teachings of Paul, as opposed to James became triumphant 

The idea of it Ethiopian Christianity humanitarian is incorrect. Neither is the Rastafarian  movement Unitarian.  The Unitarian church is a hit you fast which really has nothing to do with any of the Abrahamic religious.  The Jehovah witnesses are more dualist communitarian and have a lot of their weird beliefs.
 

At this point, I would think it’s a loss cause to try to take them to Unitarianism then Tom this is like a black friend of mine wanted Black people to convert first to the nation of gods on earth for a few years the nation of Islam for a few years, then be under Dr. York for Arabic for a few years, then learn about themselves under the more for a few years and then go to the sun for a few years and he figured after 1520 years they’ll be ready to become Shia  for the most part it’s a losing strategy

12 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

 

Edited January 14 by Abu Hassanain
Better

[Eddie Mecca]

23 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

“they became dominant”

But this can't be a prophecy because it's speaking in the past tense... it says, "they became dominant"... and not, "We will make them dominant in the land" or something similar... hmm (scratches head)... and monotheist Christianity never became dominant... unless - as Ustad Bilal mentioned in the article - Allah is talking about success or dominance in the afterlife 

[Eddie Mecca]

1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

But this can't be a prophecy because it's speaking in the past tense... it says, "they became dominant"... and not, "We will make them dominant in the land" or something similar... hmm (scratches head)... and monotheist Christianity never became dominant... unless - as Ustad Bilal mentioned in the article - Allah is talking about success or dominance in the afterlife

Found this from 2016

"and they became dominant." (61:14) - General Islamic Discussion - ShiaChat.com https://share.google/9qwAiytZT0vigHSqJ