Power Corrupts

[notme]

Salam alaikum brothers and sisters.

Given that power always corrupts fallible human beings, how are we to have leadership during the major occultation? 

I'm familiar with Imam Ali's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) letters to leaders. How can we, as the common people, have leaders we can trust? 

 

Edit:

Or if that's impossible, how can we have a functioning and not oppressive society? 

Edited October 5 by notme
Added thought

[Abu Hassanain]

3 hours ago, notme said:

Salam alaikum brothers and sisters.

Given that power always corrupts fallible human beings, how are we to have leadership during the major occultation? 

I'm familiar with Imam Ali's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) letters to leaders. How can we, as the common people, have leaders we can trust? 

 

Edit:

Or if that's impossible, how can we have a functioning and not oppressive society? 

Salam

Every system is imperfect and will have some level of corruption and injustice until the system Of the Imam as

we only had 15 years of pure islamic goverment in all of Islamic History

10 years of Rasul Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in Madinah

4.5 years of Imam Ali puh in Kufa 

6 months of Imam Hassan puh in Kufa 

honorable mention to 1 year of Mukhtar Ra in Kufa and 10 years of Sayyid Khumanyi Ra in Tehran/Qum

wallahu Alam 

[Abu Nur]

Salaam Aleikum, 

Through Humbleness because that is the only characteristic that Iblis lacked. Humble people don't care about power, money, showing off, titles etc. They don't even want to be leader. They care about others, being mercifully to others and want sincerely people to have fate and love for God. If a leader lacks it, then don't follow such a leader. 

Power corrupts because you will have thousand demons influencing you, but it can not influence humble God fearing person. 

[Eddie Mecca]

Those who seek power should be prevented from pursuing public office... We need the shy people, the pious people, the sensitive people, the gentle people, the knowledgeable people, the extremely brave and the highly honest people to pursue politics... but it's not their nature to pursue politics... but that's precisely the point... they need to be seriously nudged and pressured by the public to lead

[notme]

21 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Those who seek power should be prevented from pursuing public office... We need the shy people, the pious people, the sensitive people, the gentle people, the knowledgeable people, the extremely brave and the highly honest people to pursue politics... but it's not their nature to pursue politics... but that's precisely the point... they need to be seriously nudged and pressured by the public to lead

I wonder:

What if we treated serving in government as similar to jury duty? I think randomly selecting ordinary people would produce much better results than being assigned candidates by corrupt political parties. While serving, the individual would have all their living expenses paid, and after completing their term of service, they would get a small stipend for the rest of their lives. 

No re-elections. One term only. It would be a job and civic obligation, not a career. 

[Abu Hassanain]

On 10/8/2025 at 9:51 PM, notme said:

I wonder:

What if we treated serving in government as similar to jury duty? I think randomly selecting ordinary people would produce much better results than being assigned candidates by corrupt political parties. While serving, the individual would have all their living expenses paid, and after completing their term of service, they would get a small stipend for the rest of their lives. 

No re-elections. One term only. It would be a job and civic obligation, not a career. 

Salam

OK, I may be biased to an academic, but I’ve traveled a pretty good chunk of the US and been to a few other countries

I like your idea and spirit, but it will be wrong for me to not say what I think on this matter even though it’s a very good idea in theory, the average person in this country is extremely stupid.

There’s a large percentage of this country due to IQ reading comprehension general ability for critical and abstract, thinking and thought I don’t want to have a seat at the table.

That may be a lead that may be snobby but it’s not without evidence

The average reading level in the United States has fallen into sixth grade last time. I checked a few a year or two ago.

I have a neighbor who never voted in his life for lack of a better word hillbilly in an out of prison been homeless he voted for Donald Trump loves Donald Trump asked him why have friends were very wealthy. They like Trump for tax cuts. What do you like Trump for he said he sent me money out of his own bank account. I’m like what he’s like. Yeah he sent me that stimulus jacket has his name on it. The stimulus check has the name of the president and the treasury. Therefore, my neighbor thought that Trump sent him a personal check. 

This person also has like four or five kids

All power of the people only works with an educated populous 

Bobby Seo, cofounder of the Black Panther party of which I was somewhat involved wow I’ll just thought I was highly involved in activism to a certain age

Bobby seal was asked why the Black Panther party failed. He said it did not fail because our cause was not noble and our goals were not lofty. It failed because the people we were trying to save weren’t worth saving.

wallahu Alam

Democracy is only as functional as the IQ of your population

[Hamdi999]

On 10/9/2025 at 8:36 AM, Abu Hassanain said:

Salam

OK, I may be biased to an academic, but I’ve traveled a pretty good chunk of the US and been to a few other countries

I like your idea and spirit, but it will be wrong for me to not say what I think on this matter even though it’s a very good idea in theory, the average person in this country is extremely stupid.

There’s a large percentage of this country due to IQ reading comprehension general ability for critical and abstract, thinking and thought I don’t want to have a seat at the table.

That may be a lead that may be snobby but it’s not without evidence

The average reading level in the United States has fallen into sixth grade last time. I checked a few a year or two ago.

I have a neighbor who never voted in his life for lack of a better word hillbilly in an out of prison been homeless he voted for Donald Trump loves Donald Trump asked him why have friends were very wealthy. They like Trump for tax cuts. What do you like Trump for he said he sent me money out of his own bank account. I’m like what he’s like. Yeah he sent me that stimulus jacket has his name on it. The stimulus check has the name of the president and the treasury. Therefore, my neighbor thought that Trump sent him a personal check. 

This person also has like four or five kids

All power of the people only works with an educated populous 

Bobby Seo, cofounder of the Black Panther party of which I was somewhat involved wow I’ll just thought I was highly involved in activism to a certain age

Bobby seal was asked why the Black Panther party failed. He said it did not fail because our cause was not noble and our goals were not lofty. It failed because the people we were trying to save weren’t worth saving.

wallahu Alam

Democracy is only as functional as the IQ of your population

Well said, democracy is a good system if done well, but most of the time it falls short due to the reality that most of the population will be either dumb or busy with making ends meet to even care about whats happening around them. Democracy is not this infallible system the modern world makes it seem to be, that dogma should be questionned and there are other viable systems that can also work.

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 10/8/2025 at 11:10 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Those who seek power should be prevented from pursuing public office... We need the shy people, the pious people, the sensitive people, the gentle people, the knowledgeable people, the extremely brave and the highly honest people to pursue politics... but it's not their nature to pursue politics... but that's precisely the point... they need to be seriously nudged and pressured by the public to lead

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did precisely this during his temporal rule. 

Traditions say that when some of his supporters, like the sahabi Uthman ibn Hunayf (رضي الله عنه) heard that they had been appointed as governors, even they themselves were taken aback. 

[Eddie Mecca]

50 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did precisely this during his temporal rule. 

Traditions say that when some of his supporters, like the sahabi Uthman ibn Hunayf (رضي الله عنه) heard that they had been appointed as governors, even they themselves were taken aback. 

I think certain companions prevented Imam Ali from ruling because they thought he was politically naive... The Umayyads were thirsty for political power... No doubt about that... but I think in addition to Umayyad ambitions to ascendancy, there existed a contingent of companions who thought Imam Ali's policies were far  too idealistic and flowery... They thought this uncompromising Islamic idealism wouldn't stand a chance in the real world against Persia and Byzantium... Politics has to be diabolical and cunning and dirty after all... but these types view the world through singular, superficial, materialistic lenses... Ali's spiritual vision was panoramic and multidimensional... I have no doubt that if Ali would have been given free reign to rule how he pleased the world would be 80 - 90% Muslim today (instead of 20 - 25%)

[AbdusSibtayn]

22 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

I think certain companions prevented Imam Ali from ruling because they thought he was politically naive... The Umayyads were thirsty for political power... No doubt about that... but I think in addition to Umayyad ambitions to ascendancy, there existed a contingent of companions who thought Imam Ali's policies were far  too idealistic and flowery... They thought this uncompromising Islamic idealism wouldn't stand a chance in the real world against Persia and Byzantium... Politics has to be diabolical and cunning and dirty after all... but these types view the world through singular, superficial, materialistic lenses... Ali's spiritual vision was panoramic and multidimensional... I have no doubt that if Ali would have been given free reign to rule how he pleased the world would be 80 - 90% Muslim today (instead of 20 - 25%)

Then that's a giveaway that those 'companions' didn't really believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), because if they thought it was impossible to govern by a strict implementation of His laws, they didn't believe in His justice, nor in His wisdom. 

Ali AS who won miraculous victories for a nascent and feeble Islam in impossible wars and against insurmountable odds (while some 'companions' who were allegedly 'better' than him either fled the scene or performed dismally) was 'impractical' and a bad general. But these literally nobodies who cake-walked into collapsing Byzantine and Sassanid empires, already destroyed by mutual wars, internal conflict and disintegration, were master strategists. Even a 5 year old would laugh at this joke of a justification. 

These people need to get better with their copes. 

[notme]

On 10/9/2025 at 2:12 PM, Hamdi999 said:

falls short due to the reality that most of the population will be either dumb or busy with making ends meet

But it doesn't have to be like this! We can make things better than they are right now.  

Democracy absolutely can be corrupted, but the way to reduce corruption in government, I think, would be to reduce the amount and duration of power held by any one person.  This is a strength of Democracy.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work well when paired with minimally restricted capitalism, because the wealthy buy power even if they don't hold it themselves. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

2 hours ago, notme said:

But it doesn't have to be like this! We can make things better than they are right now.  

Democracy absolutely can be corrupted, but the way to reduce corruption in government, I think, would be to reduce the amount and duration of power held by any one person.  This is a strength of Democracy.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work well when paired with minimally restricted capitalism, because the wealthy buy power even if they don't hold it themselves. 

Separation of powers is also a must. Too much power must not be allowed to accumulate in the hands of a single individual/institutions, no matter how efficient or honest. Especially as Shi'a, we have learnt from history that even people from best of the backgrounds can be corrupted- sons and companions of the Prophets and Imams (عليهم السلام أجمعين) - if the inducement is big enough. 

Particularly, there must be a supra-political moral authority, clean of any group interest/lobby interest/political agenda, which is not beholden to or is a part of the state apparatus, to keep the government and politicians in check if they overstep their boundaries, acting as a guardian of people's rights and freedoms. For us Shi'a, it is the hawza and the marja'iyyah. 

[notme]

3 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

For us Shi'a, it is the hawza and the marja'iyyah. 

I think you're absolutely right. I wonder how that might be applied in a secular society. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

26 minutes ago, notme said:

I think you're absolutely right. I wonder how that might be applied in a secular society. 

Well, Sayyid Sistani (may Allah preserve him) is doing just that in a secular Iraq, although it is admittedly a Muslim and Shi'a majority country. 

For those of us who live in  non-Muslim countries, it need not necessarily be the ulama. It can be any figure/institution who is seen to be above and beyond partisan politics and is respected across the board. Although such figures are very hard to come by. 

[notme]

10 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

It can be any figure/institution who is seen to be above and beyond partisan politics and is respected across the board.

I guess like The Federal Reserve Bank for banking, which exists outside of government.  I'm not entirely sure who regulates it, but the members are from large and small commercial banks and they have an 8-year term in service.  

I feel like federal agencies should be non-partisan and highly regarded as top experts, but are not. (Look at RFK Jr, for example, and that horrible Department of Education woman, I don't remember her name.)

[Abu Hassanain]

7 hours ago, notme said:

I guess like The Federal Reserve Bank for banking, which exists outside of government.  I'm not entirely sure who regulates it, but the members are from large and small commercial banks and they have an 8-year term in service.  

I feel like federal agencies should be non-partisan and highly regarded as top experts, but are not. (Look at RFK Jr, for example, and that horrible Department of Education woman, I don't remember her name.)

Salam

I know her because I was a wrestling fan as a young kid

that’s Linda McMahon that’s the guy who took the WWF now I think WWE nationals’s wife. She was a wrestling character in some of the some of the same plot lines as Donald Trump. I think she was there on the sidelines of the shave your head, bald match where Donald Trump fought Vince McMahon

Yes, our current president participated in dozens of celebrity wrestling exploits

She was the head of the small business department and his first term they’ve been friends for years

I don’t know if she has a degree. She might have a business degree but she does not have an educational degree or educational credentials. She and her husband basically ran the wrestling business together.

Trump is very similar to the Umaid in that he gives possessions to his relatives, friends and supporters and random people who flatter him

 

[Guest griffith456]

SalamUAlaykum, I usually just lurk but I'll give my perspective because I've thought about this deeply and more importantly have heard perspectives from several distinguished  and very knowledgeable shuyukh and ustads, many from the Hawza in Qum.

Essentially, your solution reduces down to the wilaya. Those connected to the Wilaya will not be corrupted by power because they are connected to the Imam ((عليه السلام)), everything they are doing is for takwaAllah, all their work, their leadership it all boils down to directing the people's attention and remembrance to Imam Mehdi ((عليه السلام)). This ties into the success of imam Khomeini, why he was so successful, and brought Iran out of the darkness was because he constantly guided the people back to the Imam.

Many of those here already mentioned that those with power should be those who don't want it, like when imam Khamenei was appointed the Leader and successor of Imam Khomeini, he argued against himself, and said he wasn't qualified and there was another(s) more distinguished scholars there, but the committee chose him. 

So as someone mentioned, we should be governed by the wilaya, which is those who closest and connected to the Imam, this is the scholars, thus the hawza in Qum.

Now Sister, you mentioned in a secular society and democracy. This gets a bit more complex, but in essence it is the same as above.

If we look at Plato's classifications of types of governance, in order from best to worst it is:

1. Aristocracy where the prevalent quality is virtue, it is ruled by a Philosopher King, and it's psychic aspect is Rational
2. Timocracy where the prevalent quality is honor, it is ruled by a Military Commander
3. Oligarchy, the prevalent quality is wealth, it is ruled by the Rich
4. Democracy, its prevalent quality is freedom, ruled by the reformist
5. Tyranny, prevalent quality is power, ruled by a Tyrant

As seen, democracy is the lowest form of governance, only behind Tyranny. In fact it should be correctly characterized as DEMONcracy, a rule of demons. Democracy, though it may sound good and fair on the surface, but it inevitably leads to tyranny (read more about this from plato and rene geunon).

From an Islamic perspective we can refer to Surah Asr, وَٱلۡعَصۡرِ إِنَّ ٱلۡإِنسَٰنَ لَفِي خُسۡرٍ: Surely with time, mankind is in a loss. Also there is a hadith by the Nabi (sws) that as time goes on the level of Imaan in the Muslims generation by generation decreases, unless of what Allah wills. So democracy being the lowest common denominator of the people and as the people worsen, their rulers will also worsen. 

This is a looooong discussion, but please read Rene Guenon and his writings on democracy also Plato if you want more.

So even in a Secular society, the best form of governance is by a sort of Scholar/philosopher/man of knowledge who is "better" than all others and can lead his people to something "higher".

On 10/11/2025 at 11:13 PM, notme said:

Democracy absolutely can be corrupted, but the way to reduce corruption in government, I think, would be to reduce the amount and duration of power held by any one person.  This is a strength of Democracy.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work well when paired with minimally restricted capitalism, because the wealthy buy power even if they don't hold it themselves. 

This sounds good on paper but is very idealistic, democracy in its base form is corrupt, because the higher cannot proceed from the lower, and the greater cannot proceed from the lesser. In the sense that mankind cannot ascend from only themselves. "The people ruling over themselves" which is democracy, is a contradiction. It is a contradiction to say that the same person can be the ruler and ruled because in Aristotelian terminology, the same person cannot be in 'act' and in 'potency' at the same time and in the same relationship. Their can be no ruled if there are no rulers. Read more Guenon for this.

The other point you mentioned on people being in power for a short period of time, is completely wrong. This will only lead to those in power doing the absolute most for their own self-gain and interests, not for the people or their "realm". This method of the "rulers" changing every 8 years would lead to no prosperity of the ruled, only the rulers, because the time span is too short for the rulers to have an investment and attachment, a "possession"/responsibility feeling towards the ruled. And will inevitably, inevitably lead to Anarchy due to the rapidly changing laws and forms of governance. Look at what is happening in the Disunited states of America, the state that country is in and where its heading.

It would unironically be better to be ruled by a corrupt tyrant, than live in anarchy (result of short term democracy), this is another Islamic principle, as Anarchy is the final end of a society, the total collapse of order, complete chaos. And man cannot live in chaos, on an aside but this is also how the dajjal will rise, when man is in chaos and looking for a way out.

A Tyrant will at least provide some order/security also some protection and development of the society as they will feel it is their own "possession", and will do 'some' work to better it.

Now if you want to talk about original democracy from the Greeks, that was closer to what I was describing where a small "elite" class with knowledge rule over the masses, it WAS NOT everyone is ruling themselves.

 

[notme]

Anarchy, as a form of governance, is not chaos. It is rule by consensus of the people. It sounds great in theory, but I have never seen it work in any but the smallest societies. 

6 hours ago, Guest griffith456 said:

As seen, democracy is the lowest form of governance, only behind Tyranny. In fact it should be correctly characterized as DEMONcracy, a rule of demons. Democracy, though it may sound good and fair on the surface, but it inevitably leads to tyranny (read more about this from plato and rene geunon).

Isn't Iran a democracy? Didn't the people of Iran overthrow their king? 

[Hamdi999]

On 10/13/2025 at 8:09 PM, notme said:

Anarchy, as a form of governance, is not chaos. It is rule by consensus of the people. It sounds great in theory, but I have never seen it work in any but the smallest societies. 

Isn't Iran a democracy? Didn't the people of Iran overthrow their king? 

Yes, but it isn't necessarly the best system or the system that sayed khomeini(rh) necessarly wanted, but given how iranian society was and is, iran is an islamic republic with a limited democracy(only muslims become presidents). 

 

In the case of iran, a democracy and a less authoritarian government, leaves it vulnerable to the constant infiltrations of american/european/israeli spies and the constant psychological warfare through conservative and liberal western media outlets.

This is the result of an unhinged government like the US who is trying 24/7 to destroy iran and regime change them, so iran turns into a puppet state and who is spending millions and even billions through "ngo's" to do so. 

Another problem is when you have people being constantly brainwashed on the reformist side to think that having a deal with america is good, they end up electing people like pezeshkian who are incompetent and who put iran in grave danger, because they keep trusing the US government and they keep being backstabbed.

Edited October 15 by Hamdi999

[notme]

@Hamdi999 if half of an entire population can be fooled, couldn't a king even more easily be fooled? 

I don't think the problem is democracy.  I think the problem is isolation enforced by the United States as "punishment" for setting up a democracy.  

[Hamdi999]

1 hour ago, notme said:

@Hamdi999 if half of an entire population can be fooled, couldn't a king even more easily be fooled? 

Depends and I wasn't calling for a monarchy necessarly. In the case of iran, sayed khamenaei is not someone that is easily fooled, I just wish he ruled directly instead of having this republic where you have incompetent leaders like Rouhani and Pezeshkian getting elected because the people got brainwashed enough and they end up ruining the country. I just think its better to have the supreme leader of iran rule directly rathen than lead the irgc only and give suggestions to the president, things would have gone much better and many lives would have been spared. 

 

I don't just say this because I follow sayed khamenaei, he genuenly showed hes a great leader, look at the 12 day war for example, when almost all his top generals got assasinated, he took charge of the army and the situation whilst many of his other generals were still shocked at what had happened. 

1 hour ago, notme said:

I don't think the problem is democracy.  I think the problem is isolation enforced by the United States as "punishment" for setting up a democracy.  

America didn't punish iran for democracy, they punished iran because iran refuses to be their puppet state like under the shah, they punish iran because iran outplayed them during the revolution.

Democracy is a good system in an ideal world where you don't have a psychotic government like the US trying to regime change you 24/7, but we unfortunatley live in this world and america is constantly engaging in election meddling.

Even in my country lebanon they were exposed just last year through a leaked document from the american embassy in lebanon that essentially showed that the US was engaging in election meddling, installing fake "grassroots" NGO's, countering china and russia so they don't sell lebanon millitary equipment, etc... and then you get these puppets and clowns Nawaf salam and Joseph Aoun in power a year later. 

 

And as mentionned before, they constantly engage in psyops too, to influence the iranian people to vote reformist or even overthrow their government. 

 

On an unrelated note, if you wanted to see an example of US meddling and regime change efforts in iran, here is one article that goes into a little bit of detail on this:

https://thecradle.co/articles/leaked-documents-expose-us-interference-projects-in-iran

Edited October 16 by Hamdi999

[Guest griffith456]

On 10/13/2025 at 8:09 PM, notme said:

Isn't Iran a democracy? Didn't the people of Iran overthrow their king? 

You made my point for me, the democracy that exists in Iran, is Iran's biggest weakness, and the West used/is using/and will use that to destroy the country. All the reformists who are destroying the country are democratically elected officials, the people who signed the JCPOA and are destroying the country from within and working against the Rahbar are reformists who were "democratically" elected.

Iran is also not a true democracy because the Rahbar holds the central power in the country. When Iran will become an actual democracy like the west that is when it will truly fall and the end of times will be near.

Funny but the "republic" portion in the Islamic republic of Iran in farsi is Jamhuri it's etymology goes down to the Jamaa (Arabic word). "Republic" is what it can translate to in english, and the reformists use that to connect it to the French republic and "the power of the people", and push democracy in Iran.

And the people who overthrew the Shah were lead by Ayatullah Khomeini (may god bless him), again, not a democracy.

On 10/15/2025 at 8:29 PM, notme said:

if half of an entire population can be fooled, couldn't a king even more easily be fooled? 

It's not just any King though, that is how you end up with a Tyrant... It is from an Islamic perspective a Godly Scholar, or from a secular (ugh) perspective a Philosopher King. Both of these are connected to a higher, and lead their people towards it.

The entire premise of a democracy is a facade as the person who is most fit to rule isn't the one who rules, but its who is the most convincing. And the person who can convince a large majority of people and speak and appeal to their nafs that rules.

[notme]

10 hours ago, Guest griffith456 said:

not just any King though, that is how you end up with a Tyrant... It is from an Islamic perspective a Godly Scholar, or from a secular (ugh) perspective a Philosopher King. Both of these are connected to a higher, and lead their people towards it.

I think this, just like anarchism, sounds great in theory.  I have not seen it work for more than a couple generations.  Power always corrupts fallible people, but we need some kind of governance. What I am looking for is a long- range, minimal to no corruption system of ensuring that the people are treated with justice and are protected from harms for many, many generations. 

Maybe governments have to be changed out periodically to clean up corruption.  If that is the case, is there a way to peacefully transition from one to another?