John the Baptist and "That Prophet"

[ServantOfMahdi]

 

[Jeffrey-N]

I'm pretty sure the specific Pharisees questioning had a belief that Elijah and another prophet would return along with the Messiah, as shown in John 1:24 as well. This was an incorrect assumption because neither Elijah nor this prophet came at the time of the coming of the Messiah. Also, Elijah was already dead when the people asked John the Baptist, proving my point.

[ServantOfMahdi]

10 hours ago, Jeffrey-N said:

Elijah was already dead

Elijah was taken up to heaven without dying, according to the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament. This is a unique event recorded in the Book of 2 Kings.

|| Biblical Reference:

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV):

> "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

10 hours ago, Jeffrey-N said:

neither Elijah nor this prophet came

The reference where Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the return of Elijah is found in several places in the New Testament. The clearest statement is in the Gospel of Matthew:

|| Matthew 11:13–14 (KJV)

> "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

Here, "Elias" is the Greek form of Elijah.

Jesus is saying that John the Baptist fulfills the prophecy of Elijah’s return.

10 hours ago, Jeffrey-N said:

This was an incorrect assumption

You contradict Jesus here:

|| Matthew 17:10–13 (KJV)

> And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.

Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

This passage is especially explicit in confirming that Jesus viewed John the Baptist as the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy (see Malachi 4:5–6).

---

Here is the Old Testament prophecy Jesus is referring to, it's:

|| Malachi 4:5–6 (KJV)

> "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers..."

10 hours ago, Jeffrey-N said:

had a belief that Elijah and another prophet would return along with the Messiah, as shown in John 1:24 as well

They never said that all three would come together, they were just enquiring if John the Baptist was one of the those three awaited.

John 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

10 hours ago, Jeffrey-N said:

nor this prophet

Since Jesus didn't deny this belief in the awaited three, of which his coming was a part, nor rejected any of those three questions which are the subject here, rather answered

Question 1. About the Messiah: as Jesus himself

Question 2. About Elias: as John the Baptist

We believe that Question 3. About that prophet too was answered by him, answers where the Paraclete was misconstrued, employing even interpolations, as the Holy Ghost.

 

[Jeffrey-N]

I'd like to start this by admitting I didn't do I great response, didn't take the time to do much research, and quickly put in my opinion. I'll try to fix that

27 minutes ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

Elijah was taken up to heaven without dying, according to the Hebrew Bible / Old Testament. This is a unique event recorded in the Book of 2 Kings.

|| Biblical Reference:

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV):

> "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

So was Enoch, I apologize I should have used better phrasing. 

He was not physically present on the earth

30 minutes ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

The reference where Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the return of Elijah is found in several places in the New Testament. The clearest statement is in the Gospel of Matthew:

|| Matthew 11:13–14 (KJV)

> "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

Here, "Elias" is the Greek form of Elijah.

Jesus is saying that John the Baptist fulfills the prophecy of Elijah’s return.

I agree, John the baptist fulfills the prophecy of Elijah, however John the Baptist clearly isn't Elijah in bodily form, as shown in the verse you cited at the start.

John 1:21:

"And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."

As you showed, John clearly is not Elijah.

36 minutes ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

You contradict Jesus here:

|| Matthew 17:10–13 (KJV)

> And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.

Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

This passage is especially explicit in confirming that Jesus viewed John the Baptist as the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy (see Malachi 4:5–6).

---

Here is the Old Testament prophecy Jesus is referring to, it's:

|| Malachi 4:5–6 (KJV)

> "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers..."

We have clearly established (John 1:21) that John was not the literal coming of Elias. John the Baptist is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Elias, as he did the things (made straight the way of the Lord), that were prophesied of this 'Elias'. 

48 minutes ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

They never said that all three would come together, they were just enquiring if John the Baptist was one of the those three awaited.

John 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

Here's where I probably screwed up, and would change my answer if I could. I didn't do the proper research or thoroughly examine that specific text. I would argue that the specific prophet was, in fact Jesus. The Bible calls Jesus a prophet on multiple occasion. This prophet is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecies.

Deuteronomy 18:15:

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen"

In the Bible Jesus fulfills this prophecy.

Acts 3:22:

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you"

1 hour ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

Since Jesus didn't deny this belief in the awaited three, of which his coming was a part, nor rejected any of those three questions which are the subject here, rather answered

Question 1. About the Messiah: as Jesus himself

Question 2. About Elias: as John the Baptist

We believe that Question 3. About that prophet too was answered by him, answers where the Paraclete was misconstrued, employing even interpolations, as the Holy Ghost.

Yes Jesus was in fact the Messiah and John was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Elias.

I certainly wouldn't say the prophet is referring to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not a prophet by any means. I would argue that the prophet being referred to is Jesus, and the Jews did not understand that the prophet would be the same as Jesus. The Jews had many misconceptions of the Messiah at the time, as they also expected him to be a military leader. I certainly wouldn't believe that Muhammad was the fulfillment of this prophecy.

After all Muhammad doesn't seem to have the greatest character to be a prophet of God. Muhammad tortured people (Source), married a six year old (Surce), and even married his adopted sons wife (Source). There are other things he did that weaken his character that I can mentioned if you would like. A Muslim could argue that prophets like David and Solomon also fell into sin, both because of lust. I would agree, the only difference was that God rebuked them when they sinned, and they were punished. Allah/God never rebuked Muhammad, rather some of Muhammad's sins were supposedly commandments from God/Allah. 

[ServantOfMahdi]

On 7/20/2025 at 8:16 AM, Jeffrey-N said:

I'd like to start this by admitting I didn't do I great response, didn't take the time to do much research, and quickly put in my opinion. I'll try to fix that

So was Enoch, I apologize I should have used better phrasing. 

He was not physically present on the earth

I agree, John the baptist fulfills the prophecy of Elijah, however John the Baptist clearly isn't Elijah in bodily form, as shown in the verse you cited at the start.

John 1:21:

"And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."

As you showed, John clearly is not Elijah.

We have clearly established (John 1:21) that John was not the literal coming of Elias. John the Baptist is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Elias, as he did the things (made straight the way of the Lord), that were prophesied of this 'Elias'. 

Here's where I probably screwed up, and would change my answer if I could. I didn't do the proper research or thoroughly examine that specific text. I would argue that the specific prophet was, in fact Jesus. The Bible calls Jesus a prophet on multiple occasion. This prophet is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecies.

Deuteronomy 18:15:

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen"

In the Bible Jesus fulfills this prophecy.

Acts 3:22:

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you"

Yes Jesus was in fact the Messiah and John was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Elias.

I certainly wouldn't say the prophet is referring to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not a prophet by any means. I would argue that the prophet being referred to is Jesus, and the Jews did not understand that the prophet would be the same as Jesus. The Jews had many misconceptions of the Messiah at the time, as they also expected him to be a military leader. I certainly wouldn't believe that Muhammad was the fulfillment of this prophecy.

After all Muhammad doesn't seem to have the greatest character to be a prophet of God. Muhammad tortured people (Source), married a six year old (Surce), and even married his adopted sons wife (Source). There are other things he did that weaken his character that I can mentioned if you would like. A Muslim could argue that prophets like David and Solomon also fell into sin, both because of lust. I would agree, the only difference was that God rebuked them when they sinned, and they were punished. Allah/God never rebuked Muhammad, rather some of Muhammad's sins were supposedly commandments from God/Allah. 

John the Baptist didn't know he was Elias at the time he was asked, but Jesus knew his reality, and he clearly said that, and claiming it to mean something other than what is obviously understood of it is like claiming to know more than Jesus the meaning of what he said, period.

I don't need to answer you when you claim Jesus to be both the Messiah and "that prophet", you know very well what all christians with this claim want to avoid, but the honest can't forever.

Lastly, to know the "real" Muhammad, stop relying on the adulterated version of Islam (Sunnism) and refer to the genuine unadulterated Islam (Twelver Shiism).

The Israelites' brethren are the Ishmaelites, among whom "that prophet" was prophesied to come (Muhammad descended from Ishmael's son Kedar) for the Gentiles, in the desert region of the Kedarite Arabs (Mecca) and the Sela mountain (Medina), whose law, characterized by a "new song to the Lord" (Adhān the Islamic Call to Prayer) and wars against idolaters, would spread across the world:

Isaiah 42:1–23 (NKJV)

> 1 “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

> 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,
Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.

> 3 A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;
He will bring forth justice for truth.

> 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged,
Till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”

> 5 Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:

> 6 “I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,

> 7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the prison,
Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

> 8 I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.

> 9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
And new things I declare;
Before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

> 10 Sing to the Lord a new song,
And His praise from the ends of the earth,
You who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,
You coastlands and you inhabitants of them!

> 11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voice,
The villages that Kedar inhabits.
Let the inhabitants of Sela sing,
Let them shout from the top of the mountains.

> 12 Let them give glory to the Lord,
And declare His praise in the coastlands.

> 13 The Lord shall go forth like a mighty man;
He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war.
He shall cry out, yes, shout aloud;
He shall prevail against His enemies.

> 14 “I have held My peace a long time,
I have been still and restrained Myself.
Now I will cry like a woman in labor,
I will pant and gasp at once.

> 15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills,
And dry up all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers coastlands,
And I will dry up the pools.

> 16 I will bring the blind by a way they did not know;
I will lead them in paths they have not known.
I will make darkness light before them,
And crooked places straight.
These things I will do for them,
And not forsake them.

> 17 They shall be turned back,
They shall be greatly ashamed,
Who trust in carved images,
Who say to the molded images, ‘You are our gods.’

> 18 “Hear, you deaf;
And look, you blind, that you may see.

> 19 Who is blind but My servant,
Or deaf as My messenger whom I send?
Who is blind as he who is perfect,
And blind as the Lord’s servant?

> 20 Seeing many things, but you do not observe;
Opening the ears, but he does not hear.”

> 21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness’ sake;
He will exalt the law and make it honorable.

> 22 But this is a people robbed and plundered;
All of them are snared in holes,
And they are hidden in prison houses;
They are for prey, and no one delivers;
For plunder, and no one says, “Restore!”

> 23 Who among you will give ear to this?
Who will listen and hear for the time to come?

 

Jesus again? Only if one doesn't know the history of the Middle East and the lives of Jesus and Muhammad. Not interested in reading more of polemical misinterpretations, so better don't waste your time on me, sorry.

[Jeffrey-N]

1 hour ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

John the Baptist didn't know he was Elias at the time he was asked, but Jesus knew his reality, and he clearly said that, and claiming it to mean something other than what is obviously understood of it is like claiming to know more than Jesus the meaning of what he said, period.

 

That's inaccurate, John isn't the literal reincarnation of Elijah. I'll link an article I found really useful on this topic, it does a better job of providing evidence then I would have.

https://www.gotquestions.org/John-Baptist-Elijah.html

1 hour ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

I don't need to answer you when you claim Jesus to be both the Messiah and "that prophet", you know very well what all christians with this claim want to avoid, but the honest can't forever.

In other words, you completely ignore what I said. I pointed out that Jews had a misunderstanding of the Messiah at that time, at that's why they would have asked. At this point you're just trying really hard to fit Muhammad into the Bible where he just doesn't exist, just because your Quran makes you (Surah 157).

1 hour ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

Lastly, to know the "real" Muhammad, stop relying on the adulterated version of Islam (Sunnism) and refer to the genuine unadulterated Islam (Twelver Shiism).

 

Sunni vs Shia doesn't fix your problem. The things I mentioned after found in numerous Hadiths all agreeing with me. For torturing I have over twenty hadiths speaking about the exact same event in the Wiki that I linked (Source). For Aisha's age, I'm pretty sure her age is a fairly common fact accepted by scholars/apologists, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As for marrying Zaynab (his adopted sons wife), there are also many Hadiths and commentaries agreeing with me (Zaynab and Zaib). In order for me to be wrong about anything I said you would have to outright reject all of the Hadiths and the evidence.

1 hour ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

The Israelites' brethren are the Ishmaelites, among whom "that prophet" was prophesied to come (Muhammad descended from Ishmael's son Kedar) for the Gentiles, in the desert region of the Kedarite Arabs (Mecca) and the Sela mountain (Medina)

Ishmael was not the brother of Jacob/Israel. He would have been the uncle, Esau would have been the brother of Jacob. Also, generally in the Bible brethren is used to refer to fellow Israelites, an example would be Deuteronomy 17:15. Like I said, there isn't any evidence that Kedar is located on Mecca. In addition, there isn't any evidence that 'Sela' refers to the Sela Mountains, rather it could refer to the city of Petra.

You pretty much just ignored everything I said when responding to you.

1 hour ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

whose law, characterized by a "new song to the Lord" (Adhān the Islamic Call to Prayer) and wars against idolaters, would spread across the world:

Isaiah 42 is not referring to Muhammad. Ironic, how you say this is talking about Muhammad, it literally says the LORD (Yahweh) will go out like a mighty man, not the person who was 'called'. This is clear butchering of scripture just to make it fit your narrative. It also says that this person will heal the blind, free the prisoners, and make darkness light, as well as other things Muhammad didn't do.

2 hours ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

Jesus again? Only if one doesn't know the history of the Middle East and the lives of Jesus and Muhammad.

That's a fallacy in which you claim to know more than the person you're talking to without providing any evidence. I have provided evidence on almost all of the arguments I have made, something you simply don't want to do.

2 hours ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

Not interested in reading more of polemical misinterpretations, so better don't waste your time on me, sorry.

What a joke. You're unserious. You make baseless claims to mislead people, and then tell me I'm making misinterpretations?? I'm going to respond because I care about having good dialogues so that I can understand your argument, however ridiculous it is. I also want to put this out to stop you from misleading more people. But you genuinely want to be able to put out your claims, without evidence and then run away from ever engaging. 

I just can't take you seriously after that.

[Samarra313]

On 7/22/2025 at 4:12 PM, Jeffrey-N said:

Ishmael was not the brother of Jacob/Israel. He would have been the uncle, Esau would have been the brother of Jacob.

Salam,
Along strictly genealogical lines the Ishmaelites are the brethren to the Israelis as they both trace ancestry to Ishmael and Isaac - the sons of Abraham. They and their descendants are brethren to each other. 
 

Quote

Also, generally in the Bible brethren is used to refer to fellow Israelites, an example would be Deuteronomy 17:15.

It is commonly used to refer to fellow Israelites but the definition of the original Hebrew is not completely absolute that it precisely means only this. The word encompasses more than just this reference. It can also include kin, despite how it is commonly referred.