Zaydi and Imami approach to times without infallible leaders

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Salamun 'alaykum, 

the idea that Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) is the authority upon the believers after our noble Prophet Muhammad al-Mustafa (may endless peace and blessings be upon him and his pure family) is the core idea of Tashayyu' and one supported by clear proofs. 

From my reading and understanding this was also the idea of the original Shi'a movement. Then after his martyrdom Imam al-Hasan and Imam al-Husayn (peace be upon them) are the leaders of the believers, because they are the masters of the youth of paradise and as such also our masters in this world and more deserving to be followed than anyone else. 

After the martydom of Imam al-Husayn (peace be upon him) we then find different approaches among the Shi'a concerning leadership. The Imamiyya believe that infallible leadership continued until Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (peace be upon him) and that his son is Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) and is currently in occultation. The Zaydiyya in contrast believe that infallible leadership ended already with the martydom of Imam al-Husayn (peace be upon him) and that Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) will be either from the sons of al-Hasan or al-Husayn (peace be upon them). 

Now both of them are faced with the following issue: What about the leadership of Muslims in the absence of infallible leadership? 

The Zaydiyya stated here that any knowledgeable, just, pious and brave person from the progeny of al-Hasan wal Husayn (peace be upon them) can attain the role of leadership and that even more than one leader can exist for two different locations, which means that the leadership that they're intending here is more a political one (simply due to it not being infallible anymore) and one to attain the implementation of justice on the level of Muslim societies. As for the source for ones understanding of the religion, then they said that one should primarily rely on the scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) and their agreement due to them preserving the religion more than anyone else. 

As for the Imamiyya then they stated that one should follow the Maraji', so they also relied upon the views of scholars who had a chain of knowledge going back to the Aimma (peace be upon them). As for political leadership, then it seems that they did not have an unified view (please correct me, if I'm wrong) regarding this and one of the prominent views today is that of Wilayat al-Faqih, which is somehow similar to the Zaydi view. 

 

The following is now my personal view and I would like to hear your comments on this:

I believe that after Imam al-Husayn (peace be upon him) this Umma was punished with the lack of infallible leadership and this due to the majority of the Umma not standing up for justice and supporting Imam al-Husayn and before him Imam al-Hasan and Amir al-Muminin (peace be upon them) as they should have done. 

And the above applies no matter whether one takes the Zaydi or the Imami view, because even if or when we say that there were actually still infallible leaders like Imam al-Sajjad (peace be upon him) and Imam al-Baqir (peace be upon him), then their leadership still remained hidden from the majority of Muslims and even very close and noble relatives from among the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) themselves were not aware of this issue. 

If it's stated that we have people that have reported their statements, then the problem is the same as that with the understanding of Sunnis: Non-Ahl-al-Bayt persons reporting what they heard from our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) in one case or the Aimma (peace be upon them) in the other case. This in itself does not allow certainity. The result is that the Maraji' are also fallible and one can not compare them with the Aimma (peace be upon them). 

Today some Zaydis criticize Imamis for having a more quietist view historically and some of the Imamis criticize Zaydis for being too revolutionary historically. If we look at the issue more in depth, we will however be forced to admit that quietism and being revolutionary may both be needed based upon the situation one is. 

What I also believe is that instead of being overly critical of the other side one should learn from each other and strengthen each other with ideas how to attain more just societies and how to help the oppressed and how to face the opppressors. 

As the Shi'a of Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) the Imamiyya and the Zaydiyya are meant to work together in my opinion. 

[ServantOfMahdi]

JazakAllahu khayran brother. There's no doubt that in the revolutionary vs quietist debate, as far as textual proofs are concerned, the Zaydist movement was always the one with a stance supported strongly by the Qur'an and the Hadiths. The anti-revolutionary fabrications that got smuggled into the Imami mainstream stand exposed in face of the fact that Imam al-Mujahideen Zayd (عليه السلام)'s movement was founded with the blessings of the 6th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام), one of whose companions Abul-Jarud (رضي الله عنه) became a pillar of the movement. Prominent Imamis like Fudayl ibn Marzuq (رضي الله عنه) find mention among the pioneers of the movement. The 8th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام) was nominated as the next Caliph by Ma'moon under immense Zaydist pressure. And the Zaydist uprising to get the 11th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام) released from the Baghdad prison is well-recorded in history. And as I've mentioned earlier also, even Dhahabi, a Sunni bigot, accepts that during the confinement of the 10th and the 11th Infallible Imams in Samarra, Iraqi Zaydist commanders were awaiting the birth of the 12th Imam (عليه السلام). 

Things got messed up when exploiting the Occultation (which took many decades to get known to all the Shia owing to the brutally tyrannical police state realities of those times), some hypocritical elements began popping up with fabricated hadiths prohibiting uprising before the reappearance of the 12th Imam (عليه السلام), forcing some in the Zaydist movement to doubt the Occultation claims as part of some anti-revolutionary ploy.

Quietism should never have gained foothold in the Imami mainstream when Imami hadiths about the pre-Zuhoor revolutionary campaigns of Imam al-Mujahideen Zayd (عليه السلام), the Qom upriser, Shoaib bin Saleh, Mansoor, the Hashimid Khurasanian, the Yamani etc. were all too well known. And times proved the practicality and pragmatism of the Zaydist ideology when today it has become embedded in the Imami mainstream as what people call Wilayat al-Faqih, which had always been there waiting for its realization as an essential and integral component of the spirit of Shi'ism. May Allah be pleased with all those who laid their lives for centuries for the cause of Ahl al-Bayt without their sacrifices being recognized by most claiming affiliation to the same cause, and were instead branded as hell-bound Zaydi heretics 

قضى زيد

(٣٧:٣٣)

[WMark]

1 hour ago, ServantOfMahdi said:

And as I've mentioned earlier also, even Dhahabi, a Sunni bigot, accepts that during the confinement of the 10th and the 11th Infallible Imams in Samarra, Iraqi Zaydist commanders were awaiting the birth of the 12th Imam (عليه السلام).

 

 

So what does it mean, whey you call sunni imams bigots?

 

bigot /bĭg′ət/

noun

1. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
2. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite.
   Similar: hypocrite
3. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik

 

in other words:

Today you are telling us that sunni Imams are :

1) bigots

2) hypocrites

3) and intolerant people.

 

So lets skip all the freaking out that you normally respond with, and get to the point!

Are you meaning it this time, or is this another one of your statements that does not mean what you are saying ?

 

 

Edited July 12, 2025 by WMark

[StrangerInThisWorld]

On 7/12/2025 at 8:06 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

JazakAllahu khayran brother. There's no doubt that in the revolutionary vs quietist debate, as far as textual proofs are concerned, the Zaydist movement was always the one with a stance supported strongly by the Qur'an and the Hadiths. The anti-revolutionary fabrications that got smuggled into the Imami mainstream stand exposed in face of the fact that Imam al-Mujahideen Zayd (عليه السلام)'s movement was founded with the blessings of the 6th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام), one of whose companions Abul-Jarud (رضي الله عنه) became a pillar of the movement. Prominent Imamis like Fudayl ibn Marzuq (رضي الله عنه) find mention among the pioneers of the movement. The 8th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام) was nominated as the next Caliph by Ma'moon under immense Zaydist pressure. And the Zaydist uprising to get the 11th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام) released from the Baghdad prison is well-recorded in history. And as I've mentioned earlier also, even Dhahabi, a Sunni bigot, accepts that during the confinement of the 10th and the 11th Infallible Imams in Samarra, Iraqi Zaydist commanders were awaiting the birth of the 12th Imam (عليه السلام). 

Things got messed up when exploiting the Occultation (which took many decades to get known to all the Shia owing to the brutally tyrannical police state realities of those times), some hypocritical elements began popping up with fabricated hadiths prohibiting uprising before the reappearance of the 12th Imam (عليه السلام), forcing some in the Zaydist movement to doubt the Occultation claims as part of some anti-revolutionary ploy.

Quietism should never have gained foothold in the Imami mainstream when Imami hadiths about the pre-Zuhoor revolutionary campaigns of Imam al-Mujahideen Zayd (عليه السلام), the Qom upriser, Shoaib bin Saleh, Mansoor, the Hashimid Khurasanian, the Yamani etc. were all too well known. And times proved the practicality and pragmatism of the Zaydist ideology when today it has become embedded in the Imami mainstream as what people call Wilayat al-Faqih, which had always been there waiting for its realization as an essential and integral component of the spirit of Shi'ism. May Allah be pleased with all those who laid their lives for centuries for the cause of Ahl al-Bayt without their sacrifices being recognized by most claiming affiliation to the same cause, and were instead branded as hell-bound Zaydi heretics 

قضى زيد

(٣٧:٣٣) 

Barakallahu fik, akhil karım. Could you quote al-Dhahabi? I would be interested in the statement that you're referring to. 

Regarding the quietist/revolutionist-issue: I think what we tend to forget is that a Madhhab is basically an attempt to preserve the religion and to teach it in a systematic manner and therefore not every position that results from it can be regarded as divine and one should also not forget that there are differences of opinion inside the same Madhhab.

I think we can make the following Tafsil: If one says that there are situations, where a rebellion should not be attempted, because the results will be even more corruption (see Syria), then this is acceptable and true. If one however says that we will not get into politics and not try to change the situation in our countries towards more justice and that there is no struggle for the sake of Allah ta'ala until Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) [re]appears, then this is quite problematic as you already stated (it's basically acting like Amr bil Ma'ruf wal Nahi 'an al-Munkar doesn't apply anymore). 

 

On another note: It's unfortunate that the Mu'tazili school among Sunnis was attacked so much by Hanbalis and Ash'aris alike until it basically became extinct. I'm quite sure that they would have supported the struggle against the oppressors today just like we see among many of the Imamiyya and the Zaydiyya. The Mu'tazila - similar to the Shi'a - cared about justice and were not upon Jabri ideas. Determinism is really like poison for this Umma, because it has lead the Sunni world today to a defeatist mindset and a state of complete helplessness, where they think that they can't change anything towards the good and where they just wait for a saviour to fix the situation. 

 

What really had a negative effect on the Sunni world - in my opinion at least - is the overreliance on Ahadith (many of which are the product of the understanding of oppressive rulers and their so called "scholars") until many Mafahim, that come from the Quran al-karim were rejected or regarded as secondary and until even the religion itself and our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) were presented in a wrong manner. 

The Shi'a in contrast had an advantage here: The Zaydiyya relied first and foremost on the scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) and only used the Ahadith as axilliary proof and not as an independent one and the Usuli Imamiyya adhered to the advice of the Aimma (peace be upon them) to compare the Ahadith to the Quran al-karım and to accept and reject them based upon it. 

Edited July 19, 2025 by StrangerInThisWorld

[StrangerInThisWorld]

On 7/12/2025 at 8:42 AM, WMark said:

 

 

So what does it mean, whey you call sunni imams bigots?

 

bigot /bĭg′ət/

noun

1. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
2. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite.
   Similar: hypocrite
3. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik

 

in other words:

Today you are telling us that sunni Imams are :

1) bigots

2) hypocrites

3) and intolerant people.

 

So lets skip all the freaking out that you normally respond with, and get to the point!

Are you meaning it this time, or is this another one of your statements that does not mean what you are saying ?

 

 

I would like to answer instead of the brother: Bigots exist in all Madhahib, there are however more bigots among Sunnis and this due to different reasons.

Among the reasons is the fact that many of them did not clearly disassociate from Bani Umayya, Bani al-'Abbas and oppressive rulers in general (despite acknowledging them to be oppressive, so imagine!). Many of them also did not differentiate between good and bad Sahaba (with Mu'awiya and his ilk clearly being from the latter according to any honest analysis as even acknowledged by some Sunnis). This lead them to be more receptive to the ideas of oppressive people (and even incorporate some of their ideas into the religion itself!) and as result to be also oppressive towards other Madhahib and ideas themselves. Till this day many among them will tell you "but look how many lands have been opened by Bani Umayya", while not understanding that Bani Umayya first and foremost fought for the Dunya (a proof: they took Jizya from non-Arab Muslims!) and that fighting is only allowed against people that are either fighting Muslims or oppressive towards them or what is similar to it. Allah ta'ala does NOT accept fighting for the sake of exaltedness upon earth and He also does NOT accept oppression towards others (including non-Muslims). In fact He jalla jalaluhu stated that the hereafter is assigned for those who do NOT seek exaltedness upon earth NOR corruption. 

 

[ServantOfMahdi]

8 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Could you quote al-Dhahabi?

He has mentioned this in his Ta’rīkh al-Islām, especially naming the well-known Zaydī commander in Kūfah Abū Sa‘īd ʿAbbād b. Yaʿqūb al‑Rawājīnī al‑ʿAsfarī, author of Kitāb Akhbār al‑Mahdī, wherein he recorded reports about the twelve Imams and the Occultation of the twelfth one.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

the Zaydist movement was always the one with a stance supported strongly by the Qur'an and the Hadiths. The anti-revolutionary fabrications that got smuggled into the Imami mainstream stand exposed in face of the fact that Imam al-Mujahideen Zayd (عليه السلام)'s movement was founded with the blessings of the 6th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام)

Salam lol respectfully in opposition to your claim there is no evidence from  the Qur'an and the Hadiths for verifying  the Zaydist movement which only movement of martyr Zayd (رضي الله عنه) ha been approved because he has pure intention for returning right of infallible Imams to them while on the other hand 

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

one of whose companions Abul-Jarud (رضي الله عنه) became a pillar of the movement. Prominent Imamis like Fudayl ibn Marzuq (رضي الله عنه) find mention among the pioneers of the movement.

companions of  him just wanted power just for themselves who have not pure intention of returning right of infallible Imams ; which  Fudayl ibn Marzuq (رضي الله عنه) just has been as a shia no the prominent Imami which he has been weakened as narrator in sunni source likewise Sahih by anti Shias likewise Ibn Taymiyya   for being a shia muslim which he has been a sunni narrator which has no affection in shia sources which he just has had  Zaydi inclination not Imami inclination .

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

The 8th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام) was nominated as the next Caliph by Ma'moon under immense Zaydist pressure.

This is total nonsense by you which there is no evidence about it although Ma'moon has nominated him as his successor under guise of old fake slogan of Abbasids "making Ahlulbayt happy' through relating himself to ImamReza(عليه السلام) for controlling all shia factions which Imam Reza (عليه السلام) clearly has disassociated himself from rebels likewise his brother Zayd al-Nar 

What Imam ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) told his brother Zayd ibn Musa?

 

Source: Uyun Akhbar ar-Ridha Volume 2

Quote

58-1 Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Sinani narrated that Muhammad ibn Abi Abdullah al-Kufi quoted on the authority of Abul Faydh Salih ibn Ahmad, on the authority of Sahl ibn Ziyad, on the authority of Saleh ibn Abi Hammad, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Musa ibn al-Vosha’ al-Baghdadi, “I was with Ali ibn Musa Ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) in his meeting in Khorasan where Zayd ibn Musa (Imam Ar-Ridha’’s brother) was present and was haughty with those present saying that we (meaning the offspring of Imam Musa Al-Kazim ((عليه السلام).)) are such and such. Abul Hassan Ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) who was talking to others heard what Zayd had said. He ((عليه السلام).) faced him and said, ‘O Zayd! Have the words of the narrators from Kufa made you so proud when they say, ‘(The Blessed Lady) Fatima ((عليه السلام).) maintained her chastity, thus God has forbidden the Fire from touching her progeny.’ By God, this holds true only for Al-Hassan ((عليه السلام).), Al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) and Fatima’s ((عليه السلام).) own especial offspring. However, if it were the case that your father Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).) obeyed God, fasted in the daytime and worshipped God at night, but you disobey God and claim to be equal with him (Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).)) in the Hereafter on the Resurrection Day, this would imply that you are dearer than him (Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).)) in the sight of God. In fact, Ali ibn Al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘There are double rewards for the good-doers from amongst us, and there are double chastisements for the evil-doers from amongst us.’’”
Al-Hassan al-Washsha’ added, “Then the Imam ((عليه السلام).) turned to us and said, ‘O Hassan! How do you recite the following verse?, ‘He said, ‘O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous.’’1 I (Al-Hassan al-Washsha’) answered, ‘Some people read it in such a way as to mean ‘his conduct is unrighteous’ while others read it in such a manner as to mean ‘he has done ill’. Indeed those who read it in the first form are implying that he is not really of the family of Noah and consider someone else to be his father.’ The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘No. Indeed he was truly Noah’s son. However, since he disobeyed God the Honorable the Exalted, God separated him from his father. This is exactly the same situation that holds true for us (the Members of the Holy Household of the Prophet Muhammad (S)). Whichever one of us does not obey God the Honorable the Exalted does not belong to us. O Hassan! If you obey God the Honorable the Exalted, then you are one of us - the Members of the Holy Household.’”

 

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=12827

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

And the Zaydist uprising to get the 11th Infallible Imam (عليه السلام) released from the Baghdad prison is well-recorded in history.

 

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

And as I've mentioned earlier also, even Dhahabi, a Sunni bigot, accepts that during the confinement of the 10th and the 11th Infallible Imams in Samarra, Iraqi Zaydist commanders were awaiting the birth of the 12th Imam (عليه السلام). 

In similar fashion both  these are just your baseless claims which nobody can find these in any reliable history source which it's only a  bunch of nonsense from some unreliable fans of Zaydism .

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

some hypocritical elements began popping up with fabricated hadiths prohibiting uprising before the reappearance of the 12th Imam (عليه السلام), forcing some in the Zaydist movement to doubt the Occultation claims as part of some anti-revolutionary ploy.

these are not fabricated hadiths which these are conditional hadiths  which prohibits following power hungry people & fake Mahdis  which only valid uprising is an uprising which calls people to following Imam Mahdi (aj) not following leader of fake movements  & not gathering under fake banner of power hungry people & fake Mahdis .

 

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

Quietism should never have gained foothold in the Imami mainstream when Imami hadiths about the pre-Zuhoor revolutionary campaigns of Imam al-Mujahideen Zayd (عليه السلام), the Qom upriser, Shoaib bin Saleh, Mansoor, the Hashimid Khurasanian, the Yamani etc.

This is just totall misunderstanding which except martyr Zayd (رضي الله عنه) &  the Yamani there is no strong proof for  the Qom upriser, Shoaib bin Saleh, Mansoor, the Hashimid Khurasanian which these are just some controversial conditional things which just you have  promoted it due to you interest in  promotion non essential matters for decreasing status of essential matters. 

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

. And times proved the practicality and pragmatism of the Zaydist ideology when today it has become embedded in the Imami mainstream as what people call Wilayat al-Faqih, which had always been there waiting for its realization as an essential and integral component of the spirit of Shi'is

Totally in opposition to your nonsense   Wilayat al-Faqih (WF) always has been independent from the Zaydist ideology ; which just in our era Zaydis have followed WF after Islamic revolution of Iran (IRI) which it has not any position the Zaydist ideology before IRI totally in opposition to your nonsense .

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

May Allah be pleased with all those who laid their lives for centuries for the cause of Ahl al-Bayt without their sacrifices being recognized by most claiming affiliation to the same cause,

This is  your only valid point here 

On 7/12/2025 at 9:36 AM, ServantOfMahdi said:

and were instead branded as hell-bound Zaydi heretics 

This is just your nonsense  which in opposition to your nonsense  flag of mahdavi movement only has been carried by Shia twelver Imami Marjas but on the other hand power hungry rebels as so called  Zaydi leaders has not any rule about it .

[StrangerInThisWorld]

When I re-read my own comments in this thread, the following came to my mind: It's established that Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib, Imam al-Hasan and Imam al-Husayn (peace be upon them) are infallible successors of Rasulullah (may peace and blessings be upon him and his pure family). What is also established is that Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) is an infallible successor and that he will fill the earth with justice after it has become filled with oppression. Now it's possible that some non-Imamis may deny his infalliblity by their tongues, but in reality all those who believe in the concept of Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) do regard him as infallible, because otherwise the things that they ascribe to him would not apply. 

Now looking at the issue from a logical point of view: If the first three Imams are infallible and the last one (may peace be upon them) also, then a concept of Imama were there is a line of infallible successors makes more sense than one where you have a shift from infallible to fallible and then back to infallible. 

 

On 7/22/2025 at 8:42 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam lol respectfully in opposition to your claim there is no evidence from  the Qur'an and the Hadiths for verifying  the Zaydist movement which only movement of martyr Zayd (رضي الله عنه) ha been approved because he has pure intention for returning right of infallible Imams to them while on the other hand... 

Wa 'alaykum al-Salam, 

the Shaykh Ahmad Salman has mentioned that the Zaydiyya was more a political movement [among the Shi'a] in the beginning and that a person being regarded "Zaydi" back then doesn't show him having what was regarded as "Zaydi creed" later on. 

There are also examples where the Aimma of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) supported people, whom the Zaydiyya also look up to. 

Let's not forget also the general situation back then: Being "too Shi'a" was dangerous, which is why the Aimma (peace be upon them) and their followers and supporters would not speak about every issue in front of everyone. This means that some people, who were supporter of the Aimma (peace be upon them), did obviously not openly say that they believed in the Imama of the Imam of their time. 

 

Anyways, I still believe that the Imamiyya and the Zaydiyya today should be united and that there a lot of things that are common to both and that differences of opinion should be treated with respect and understanding. 

[Eddie Mecca]

14 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

some non-Imamis may deny his infalliblity by their tongues

I've read some Sunnis say that al-Mahdi will be in a bar drinking alcohol and then one night he will hear the adhan ringing in his ear. Only he will be able to hear it. Then he will realize he is the prophesied Mahdi and he will change his life completely and become a righteous person overnight. Allah will thoroughly prepare him for his divine task all within 24 hour period. 

Edited November 2, 2025 by Eddie Mecca
Adding

[Eddie Mecca]

13 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

but in reality all those who believe in the concept of Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) do regard him as infallible

The reasonable Sunni will admit it's mandatory to follow Imam al-Mahdi... I asked many Sunnis in past discussions and debates if we're allowed to disagree with or disobey al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) even in small, insignificant matters... They always answer in the negative... In other words, following him is mandatory in all cases and scenarios... I ask if Allah will make it compulsory on them to follow a sinful person totally and completely... They become quiet and begin to ponder deeply

Edited November 2, 2025 by Eddie Mecca
Adding

[ServantOfMahdi]

How can they not believe him to be Infallible whom God's Word Jesus (عليه السلام) will follow in congregational prayers according to their own authenticated hadiths?

[GEU_40]

On 11/17/2025 at 8:01 PM, ServantOfMahdi said:

How can they not believe him to be Infallible whom God's Word Jesus (عليه السلام) will follow in congregational prayers according to their own authenticated hadiths?

Their own authenticated hadiths say that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself is only infallible in matters of revelation. He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) makes mistakes (naudubillah) in wordly matters of, for example, the planting of crops.

[Abu Hassanain]

2 hours ago, GEU_40 said:

Their own authenticated hadiths say that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself is only infallible in matters of revelation. He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) makes mistakes (naudubillah) in wordly matters of, for example, the planting of crops.

Salam

if any of them holds this belief and actually understands the Arabic grammar of the Quran particularly 33 verse 33 and 360 to 65 then that is clear disbelief

[Abu Hassanain]

On 11/2/2025 at 3:54 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

I've read some Sunnis say that al-Mahdi will be in a bar drinking alcohol and then one night he will hear the adhan ringing in his ear. Only he will be able to hear it. Then he will realize he is the prophesied Mahdi and he will change his life completely and become a righteous person overnight. Allah will thoroughly prepare him for his divine task all within 24 hour period. 

Salam

are you being serious or joking have some of them actually sunk to this level?

[Abu Hassanain]

Salam

zaydi school is finished by their own standards

Leader should be from sons of Imam Ali as rise up wage war destroy tyrannical government and establish a just  government

Sayyid Khumanyi fulfilled the requirement, so it becomes mandatory for all Zaydi to follow him and thus become 12ers 

[ServantOfMahdi]

4 hours ago, GEU_40 said:

Their own authenticated hadiths say that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself is only infallible in matters of revelation. He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) makes mistakes (naudubillah) in wordly matters of, for example, the planting of crops.

Yes, [edited out] fabrications to suggest that not all the decisions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were correct in worldly matters which according to them include political leadership – including the Ghadir Proclamation which the Saqifa hypocrites had claimed was based solely on the Prophet's desire and had nothing to do with revelation. May Allah damn those hypocrites.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 12/19/2025 at 1:29 PM, Abu Hassanain said:

Salam

are you being serious or joking have some of them actually sunk to this level?

Salam yeah this is really serious which even fair sunni scholars likewise Sheikh Imran Hosein is one of greatest supporters of this idea which also he himself has added that a council of scholars must verify this Mahdi which indirectly he has appointed himself as head of this imaginary council . 

Edited December 21, 2025 by Ashvazdanghe

[StrangerInThisWorld]

On 12/19/2025 at 10:58 AM, Abu Hassanain said:

Salam

if any of them holds this belief and actually understands the Arabic grammar of the Quran particularly 33 verse 33 and 360 to 65 then that is clear disbelief

Salamun 'alaykum,

that which traditional Sunnis (at least in my experience) usually teach is that our Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) is infallible as established by qat'i proofs. As for any narration that seems to go against this, then they're single narrations (Ahad) and cannot establish certainty nor override qat'i proofs. 

As for Salafis, then they don't differentiate between qat'i (definitive) and dhanni (speculative) - due to their ignorance! - and that's why you will find Mashayikh among them, who basically have a similar Kufri creed as that of the Ahl al-Kitab concerning the Anbiya (peace be upon them). 

 

Anyways, it's quite obvious that Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) is infallible - that which he will achieve by the will of Allah ta'ala (meaning: justice on earth) is way too big for it to be otherwise - and this is what is affirmed by the Imamiyya explicitly and by the Zaydiyya and traditional Sunnis implicitly. 

 

And as for the losers, whose "Mahdi" is a sinner or worse, then let them find a religion other than Islam in order to have such ugly beliefs. 

Edited December 21, 2025 by StrangerInThisWorld